test content
  • Games
  • Social
  • Arc News
  • Support
  • Zen
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Forums > Home› Star Trek Online General Discussion

Idea: Buff cruisers/nerf escort threads

adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
edited March 2013 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
Ok we've all seen the long list of buff cruisers/nerf escort threads and CaptainGeko's comments on beam arrays have not helped matters in the slightest so I now writing this thread ask of you a favour 1 hour of your time Mr Rivera to run an experiment to put this matter to bed certainly for me and possibly for many other cruiser pilots.

We all heard the now infamous "Beam arrays are working as designed" and if they are that means they were designed to be completely ineffectual. My proposed experiment would be for you to replicate the following ship and character build and spend 1 hour playing both PvE and PvP content and if at the end of this you find Beam arrays to be fine then I for one will stop going on about them.

So the build...

Fleet advanced Heavy cruiser retrofit.
Engineer captain, Skill spec

Weapons
Fore: 3x Tetryon Beam array Mk XII [Acc] [CrtD] [CrtH], 1 Quantum Torpedo Mk XII [Acc] [CrtD] [CrtH]
Aft: See fore

Equipment
Full Mk XII M.A.C.O. Set

Consoles
Engineering: 2x Neutronium Mk XI (Rare), SIF generator Mk XI (Rare), Assimilated module
Science: Field Generator Mk XI (Rare), Emitter array Mk XI (Rare)
Tactical: 4x Tetryon pulse generator Mk XI (Rare)

Bridge officers
CMDR Engineer: EPtW1, RSP1, Aux2SIF2, EWP3
LTC Tactical: TT1, FAW2, AP:B2
LT Engineer: EPtS1, ES1
Ens Engineer: ET1
LT Science: HE1, TSS2

Base power levels
Weapons: 100
Shields: 50
Engines: 25
Auxiliary: 25

Doffs
3x Damage control engineer (Very rare), 1x Warp-core engineer (Very rare)

If you feel after playing through content live on the Holodeck server both PvE and PvP that beam arrays are fine I will stop posting about how they are not fine, if you deem like the majority of cruiser players in the community that they are not fine then I recommend starting a suggestion thread because many members of the community here want to help make the game better, why waste such a large and knowledgeable resource?
ZiOfChe.png?1
Post edited by Unknown User on
«13

Comments

  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Here is a better way to see if beams are too weak.

    Take the cannons off your escort and put 7 beams on it. Does it feel far too ineffective? If so there be a problem!
    http://www.helpscout.net/75-customer-service-facts-quotes-statistics/
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    Here is a better way to see if beams are too weak.

    Take the cannons off your escort and put 7 beams on it. Does it feel far too ineffective? If so there be a problem!

    that would work as well but I know full well the performance of this build so if he posts a review of it in this thread I will know how accurate it is
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • saxfiresaxfire Member Posts: 558 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    How do you plan doing any damage with this set-up? You are using tetryon and then also you use ewp3, with TETRYON! then again, you expect to do damage when you dont have directed energy modulation, and only 6 beams... Boost your ewp is what I'd say, use plasma, plasma consoles boost ewp. get 2 copies of dem.

    You just gotta know how to use beams to get them to do dmg.
    Say the word, it saves the world.
    CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
    Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    saxfire wrote: »
    How do you plan doing any damage with this set-up? You are using tetryon and then also you use ewp3, with TETRYON!
    A beam is a beam is a beam. Tetryon, Phaser, Polaron, they're all the same base damage.

    The 2.5% proc? You place far too much value on it. Sure Antiprotons and Disruptors have a slight edge. But that's all it is. A slight edge.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    saxfire wrote: »
    How do you plan doing any damage with this set-up? You are using tetryon and then also you use ewp3, with TETRYON! then again, you expect to do damage when you dont have directed energy modulation, and only 6 beams... Boost your ewp is what I'd say, use plasma, plasma consoles boost ewp. get 2 copies of dem.

    You just gotta know how to use beams to get them to do dmg.

    Oh please enlighten me with your wisdom and show me this amazing build of yours that deals such great damage.
    http://www.helpscout.net/75-customer-service-facts-quotes-statistics/
  • eraserfisheraserfish Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    saxfire wrote: »
    How do you plan doing any damage with this set-up? You are using tetryon and then also you use ewp3, with TETRYON! then again, you expect to do damage when you dont have directed energy modulation, and only 6 beams... Boost your ewp is what I'd say, use plasma, plasma consoles boost ewp. get 2 copies of dem.

    You just gotta know how to use beams to get them to do dmg.

    Two copies of DEM, on a beam cruiser?

    Hahahaha, what a joker. DEM rank 1 does so little damage that it's hardly worth the slot, and DEM rank 2 and 3 work far far better with cannon/turret under CSV or CRF.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Guys, guys, I know the performance of this exact build and I use it frequently hence I have asked the lead systems designer to use it for a controlled experiment I already know the results of.

    This is an attempt at ending two years of complaining by the community about beam weapons/cruiser/engineers in cruisers/tacticals/escorts/some combo of the above list.

    I could have posted a perfectly good Aux2Batt build but beams then wouldn't get a buff but escorts would get another indirect buff thanks to some gear modification or new rep passive which is the last thing we need.

    Again, this is NOT about tacs vs engies, this is NOT about escorts vs cruisers, this IS about a controlled test for CaptainGeko to find out how beam arrays really perform in game.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • the1tiggletthe1tigglet Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    beams do need a boost but i tell you who needs the most work because it is the weakest class in the game and that's science captains in science ships, right now there are only two that aren;t made of tin foil with radio waves as shielding. seriously it's that bad, couple this with the unnecessary nerfs to 80% of our skills and it's just barely playable solo in science ships.

    Buff beams definitely but please don't act like engineers are the weakest.
  • vitzhvitzh Member Posts: 519
    edited March 2013
    No offence, but your cruiser build looks pretty fail to me. Sure that your issue is that you don't know how to use a cruiser properly?

    Quick Edit: Had a look at the skill tree, yip very fail. They got some things right but some things horribly wrong. It's easy for a cruiser to get 2k a beam if they know how to setup their ship right.
    KDF Future with Cryptic. Fact.

    What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    the1tigglet wrote: »
    beams do need a boost but i tell you who needs the most work because it is the weakest class in the game and that's science captains in science ships, right now there are only two that aren;t made of tin foil with radio waves as shielding. seriously it's that bad, couple this with the unnecessary nerfs to 80% of our skills and it's just barely playable solo in science ships.

    Buff beams definitely but please don't act like engineers are the weakest.

    I know all too well the state of science and do not pretend that engies are the weakest class in the game that dubious honour does go to science.

    That said however beam arrays are a common problem for both classes but again, this is not about who is strongest or weakest, this is about a semi-controlled test of beam arrays and if we can all put our ship and class differences aside for this one thread and actually get behind this before the state of arrays gets any worse then some MAY just happen.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • dova25dova25 Member Posts: 475
    edited March 2013
    I don't think cruisers or sci need buffing.Both classes are quite powerful as they are now.
    I have 2 chars one fed and one kdf both tac so I am in the opposite side

    For federation cruiser's the solution is to put elite beam's and run 5 human crew and slot FAW+extend shield+transfer shield.Such a cruiser is almost invincible in PVP because the rate of healing exceeds the rate a single escort can do damage.Single escort that can dent this build is probably a kdf having elite weapons but since I don't have acces to them I can't tell for sure


    For sci the recipe is to get a wells (1.3 shield mod ?).I have met wells in PVP that are very hard to kill.More if you use the above recipe with FAW you became almost invincible in wells.What more can a cruiser or sci may want ?
    "There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
    I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    dova25 wrote: »
    I have 2 chars one fed and one kdf both tac so I am in the opposite side

    I have a tac an eng and a sci flying an escort a cruiser and a sci respectively all are fairly effective but the tac/scort trumps the other two, it tanks as well as the cruiser for the most part and does more damage, the cruiser gave up a lot of defence to do the comparatively low damage it does (see opening post) and the sci is a sorta decent DPS shutdown build using single cannons.

    The point here is to see if the lead systems designer still feels beam weapons are fine after testing them in the live game... if he does I will shut up about it, where I go from there I know not but can we please just get together long enough for this to reach him and finally get tested once and for all?
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    I have a tac an eng and a sci flying an escort a cruiser and a sci respectively all are fairly effective but the tac/scort trumps the other two, it tanks as well as the cruiser for the most part and does more damage, the cruiser gave up a lot of defence to do the comparatively low damage it does (see opening post) and the sci is a sorta decent DPS shutdown build using single cannons.

    The point here is to see if the lead systems designer still feels beam weapons are fine after testing them in the live game... if he does I will shut up about it, where I go from there I know not but can we please just get together long enough for this to reach him and finally get tested once and for all?

    I don't know why you bothered. We both know that's not going to happen.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • yreodredyreodred Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    hereticknight085 wrote: »
    I don't know why you bothered. We both know that's not going to happen.

    I too would be very surprised if he (Mr. Rivera) would actually do that.
    "...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--" - (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie

    A tale of two Picards
    https://youtu.be/d-f3bscZa0E?t=105
    (also applies to Star Trek in general)
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited March 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Sorry mate, but your build sucks. And when i say it sucks it's the polite version of what I thought when i saw that. :D

    I understand why you're among the 20 people here who regularly take torches and pitchforks to get a buff to their cruisers.

    I'll post two better suggestions when i get back from work later today (what i'm currently using and a very good build i have in mind).
    Lenny Barre, lvl 60 DC. 18k.
    God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Sorry mate, but your build sucks. And when i say it sucks it's the polite version of what I thought when i saw that. :D

    I understand why you're among the 20 people here who regularly take torches and pitchforks to get a buff to their cruisers.

    I'll post two better suggestions when i get back from work later today (what i'm currently using and a very good build i have in mind).

    This, I'm looking forward too.

    I hope at least one of them can solo a side in KASE like my escorts can. Would be a nice change of pace for me to fly a cruiser.
    http://www.helpscout.net/75-customer-service-facts-quotes-statistics/
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    saxfire wrote: »
    How do you plan doing any damage with this set-up? You are using tetryon and then also you use ewp3, with TETRYON! then again, you expect to do damage when you dont have directed energy modulation, and only 6 beams... Boost your ewp is what I'd say, use plasma, plasma consoles boost ewp. get 2 copies of dem.

    You just gotta know how to use beams to get them to do dmg.

    DEM is such a useless ability to begin with, after its used up you will still have shields in your way (because the damage you do directly to the hull is substracted from your raw damage, hence less damage against shields while using DEM). And EWP is just as useless.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    woodwhity wrote: »
    DEM is such a useless ability to begin with, after its used up you will still have shields in your way (because the damage you do directly to the hull is substracted from your raw damage, hence less damage against shields while using DEM). And EWP is just as useless.

    Actually DEM is pretty good I rock it on my ENG piloted steamrunner two copies rank 1. Granted it is only good because of the doff that lets my DHCs churn at 125 power for all 3 and for the beam overload front DBB I put on it purely for the LoLs (a 4th DHC would be optimal) but yeah. 10% damage boost is still 10% damage.

    Also EWP is a great damage boost, for your group, as it tanks enemy defense score allowing accuracy overflow to deal gobs of damage. Granted a Torp Spread + Chrono torps works just as well if not better as it allows you to keep the enemy in your front arc but yeah.
    http://www.helpscout.net/75-customer-service-facts-quotes-statistics/
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    Take the cannons off your escort and put 7 beams on it. Does it feel far too ineffective? If so there be a problem!

    Why not equip 7 turrets and then declare there is something wrong with turrets?
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Okay so this is my current galor build.

    Gear:
    http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/3056282013031900005.jpg
    (omega set 2 parts, borg set 2 parts, maco shield, various disruptor beams)
    Doffs:
    http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/7378752013031900004.jpg

    Boffs:
    http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/1153152013031900001.jpg

    Skill tree:
    http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/9354582013031900006.jpg
    http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/9995022013031900007.jpg
    This is quite an old build and I would do it differently today (I'd remove the torp skills to add subsystem repairs, add to shield emitters, etc.).

    As you can see it's not completely optimal but it's quite a good build, and I can tank, heal, do some DPS. EPTS 3 is almost constantly up and EPTW too, so my fire at will III is always powered up, with batteries, nadion inversion and EPS power transfer if i need even more additional power to weapons.

    And yes, I can solo a side in KAGE, if you mean handling probes and killing a cube at the same time. I can also draw all aggro, allowing tacs to move freely and get at optimal range (2km) safely in most situations.

    Now, this is my current build. But i've worked on something a bit different for a possible Ambassador ship:

    Gear: 6 romulan plasma beams, 1 experimental plasma beam array, 1 romulan torp
    Keeping my eng consoles, my sci consoles but switching the assimilated module for the point-zero console. Switching to plasma tac consoles.

    Boff layout:
    TT 1
    TT 1, FAW 2
    EPTW 1, RSP 1, EPTS 3, AuxtoSIF 3
    PH 1, HE 2, TSS 3
    HE 1, TSS 2

    Doffs: 3x damage control engineers, 2x energy weapon officer (chance to reduce CD for beam special attacks).

    Estimated cost: ~75M EC (including the ship modules and purple doffs) + ~150k dil.

    This is an expensive cruiser build (although cheaper than my galor one), but it's probably good enough to be extremely competitive.
    Lenny Barre, lvl 60 DC. 18k.
    God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Okay so this is my current galor build.

    Gear:
    http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/3056282013031900005.jpg
    (omega set 2 parts, borg set 2 parts, maco shield, various disruptor beams)
    Doffs:
    http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/7378752013031900004.jpg

    Boffs:
    http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/1153152013031900001.jpg

    Skill tree:
    http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/9354582013031900006.jpg
    http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/9995022013031900007.jpg
    This is quite an old build and I would do it differently today (I'd remove the torp skills to add subsystem repairs, add to shield emitters, etc.).

    As you can see it's not completely optimal but it's quite a good build, and I can tank, heal, do some DPS. EPTS 3 is almost constantly up and EPTW too, so my fire at will III is always powered up, with batteries, nadion inversion and EPS power transfer if i need even more additional power to weapons.

    And yes, I can solo a side in KAGE, if you mean handling probes and killing a cube at the same time. I can also draw all aggro, allowing tacs to move freely and get at optimal range (2km) safely in most situations.

    Well this is (short of a couple of changes in boff skills and a different energy and torp type) is the same build I posted here, even the skill layout is the same, from experience of my own build I would estimate it at a little above 5k DPS over the course of an STF.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    Well this is (short of a couple of changes in boff skills and a different energy and torp type) is the same build I posted here, even the skill layout is the same, from experience of my own build I would estimate it at a little above 5k DPS over the course of an STF.

    Seriously, tetryon is cheap but it sucks for a cruiser. I'd expect it on a tac, not on a heal boat.Technically, I get 10% more damage with my disruptors. And my FAW 3 is a lot more powerful than a FAW 2. Just because it hits more targets. :D
    Lenny Barre, lvl 60 DC. 18k.
    God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    diogene0 wrote: »

    And yes, I can solo a side in KAGE, if you mean handling probes and killing a cube at the same time. I can also draw all aggro, allowing tacs to move freely and get at optimal range (2km) safely in most situations.

    Solo means solo. All probes, cubes, transformers, and the gate. That is what my Tac/Escort can do. And his setup does not cost anywhere near as much as your setups do.

    Don't get me wrong, it is not that beams and by extension cruisers are not capable of holding their weight or that are not not viable.

    The issue is they are not optimal. Which would be fine if the disparity was not as large as it is. Optimal should not be capable of double the performance of other ships.
    http://www.helpscout.net/75-customer-service-facts-quotes-statistics/
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    Solo means solo. All probes, cubes, transformers, and the gate. That is what my Tac/Escort can do. And his setup does not cost anywhere near as much as your setups do.

    Don't get me wrong, it is not that beams and by extension cruisers are not capable of holding their weight or that are not not viable.

    The issue is they are not optimal. Which would be fine if the disparity was not as large as it is. Optimal should not be capable of double the performance of other ships.



    They're not optimal at dealing damage because they are intended as support ships, or as tanks.

    Unfortunately everyone wants them to instead also, be damage ships.


    The smarter conversation, especially in light of Captain Gecko's recent comments on BAs, is a tweaking of how PvE environments are designed.


    Higher average sustained damage, lower spikes.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ussultimatum wrote: »
    They're not optimal at dealing damage because they are intended as support ships, or as tanks.

    Unfortunately everyone wants them to instead also, be damage ships.


    The smarter conversation, especially in light of Captain Gecko's recent comments on BAs, is a tweaking of how PvE environments are designed.


    Higher average sustained damage, lower spikes.


    Trinity does not, and will not work in STO.

    Beyond that you cannot increase the average sustained damage and expect it to have any meaningful impact on min/max escort builds without seeing the average player view it as spike when they die over and over in a handful of seconds. Sustain is far too high even on escorts for any other outcome.
    http://www.helpscout.net/75-customer-service-facts-quotes-statistics/
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ussultimatum wrote: »
    They're not optimal at dealing damage because they are intended as support ships, or as tanks.

    Unfortunately everyone wants them to instead also, be damage ships.


    The smarter conversation, especially in light of Captain Gecko's recent comments on BAs, is a tweaking of how PvE environments are designed.


    Higher average sustained damage, lower spikes.

    I think you kinda missed the point a bit.
    Yes they are meant to tank and do less damage than escorts.

    But should the end result not be that they can hold their own for longer and over the extended amount of time they hold their own wear the enemy down, just like escorts do just on a different timetable?
    Meaning for example if a cruiser lasts twice as long as an escort it should do about half as much damage to even it out.
    But if that's not the case and cruisers do too little damage in relation to their increased survivability, they need a tweak of some sort.
    Me personally, one in either direction will to: more tanking or more firepower.
    But it seems the tanking to firepower relation is somewhat off.
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I propose all us escort drivers park them for the rest of the week, and do as many ESTF's in cruisers as we can. Lets show solidarity with our fellow captains who fly cruisers, and fly with them to show how effective the rooms can be with a full compliment of cruisers.

    :D

    ...And I MEAN cruisers with beams, not those pseudo cruisers with cannons, OK ?
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    Trinity does not, and will not work in STO.[/qoute]

    That has nothing to do with better PvE environment design.

    If you're resigned to the above statement, then my recommendation to you is to stop flying Cruisers and Sci ships because they are holy trinity themed classes without a functional space in STOs current mission content design.

    bareel wrote: »
    Beyond that you cannot increase the average sustained damage and expect it to have any meaningful impact on min/max escort builds without seeing the average player view it as spike when they die over and over in a handful of seconds. Sustain is far too high even on escorts for any other outcome.

    Says you.

    High average DPS, enough to stress even a cruiser and completely overburden an Escort would lead to a better role space for Cruisers and Sci ships.


    Lower spike damage would mean those two above roles are not trivialized by damage amounts that make healing and tanking irrelevant.



    It doesn't matter how the average player in this game perceives it because:

    1) The vast majority of them are completely clueless anyway.

    2) It would be better than the 'tickle' vs. 'one-shot' mechanics we have now. I don't see how any reasonable human being can actually argue against this.


    misterde3 wrote: »
    But should the end result not be that they can hold their own for longer and over the extended amount of time they hold their own wear the enemy down, just like escorts do just on a different timetable?
    Meaning for example if a cruiser lasts twice as long as an escort it should do about half as much damage to even it out.
    But if that's not the case and cruisers do too little damage in relation to their increased survivability, they need a tweak of some sort.

    Except we have nothing but a forum full of terrible anecdotes to go by.

    I've run all cruiser Elite STFs, yes including beam array cruisers, that have finished all of the STFs with optionals and plenty of time to spare on the clock.


    What math do you have, that shows a cruiser lasts twice as long but does half as much damage?



    The fix for the classes exists in encounter design, but as you can see even normally reasonable posters like bareel seem biased against it.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    lordmalak1 wrote: »
    I propose all us escort drivers park them for the rest of the week, and do as many ESTF's in cruisers as we can. Lets show solidarity with our fellow captains who fly cruisers, and fly with them to show how effective the rooms can be with a full compliment of cruisers.

    :D

    ...And I MEAN cruisers with beams, not those pseudo cruisers with cannons, OK ?

    This sounds like an absolutely excellent idea
    ZiOfChe.png?1
Sign In or Register to comment.