ok, i see alot of u complaining about escorts. i have both a VA tact and a VA engi., and
i dont see the issue here, they seem balanced to me. only problem i ever have with escorts is the Jem-bug. ridiculously powerful. have you guys ever "tried" playing a tactical officer? they DO NOT excell at everything. u put a tact in a sci ship hes gonna get pounded to hell and back by damn near anyone! i say if they nerf the cannons, nerf the heals engineers can dish out. sounds to me you just want cruisers to run the game..just m/o..
And your opinion is wrong.
I play a science officer who flies a Recluse. I put out an hell of a lot of DPS
I play a tactical officer who flies a dedicated tactical ship, and a science vessel. I put out respectable dps in the science vessel - and massive dps in the escort.
I have played an engineer in a cruiser - but have not done so since season 2. They just aren't viable for any roll anymore. With even a couple escorts in pve content, things dont live long enough to worry about tanking (on average, in my recluse, most stfs take 10 minutes to finish - not counting the one with Donatra, which takes 15 minutes to finish)
Each class has its role in the game. If you are a fan of the quick pew pew then fly an escort.
If you like sustainability then fly a cruiser
If you like a mix of sustainability and healing/shields then fly a sci vessel.
The problems arise when folks want a cruiser to be on par with an escort or a sci vessel to pew pew with the best of them...
It is not the ships fault but the players for choosing the wrong class of ship to materialize their desires.
In neverwinter we pug an epic dungeon will all Rogues...and complete it all the time.......just takes more effort.
I will conceede that STO does, to a small degree, push the DPS mantra...and IMO a lil too hard by the content they release.
In most games you cannot survive end content with all DPS u need a balance of all of them...but then again STO is not an avg MMo.....much is askew
No. If I want to kill stuff, I fly an escort
If I want survivability, I fly an escort. I kill stuff too quickly to die
If I want to heal, I fly... well... that is pointless. I don't heal others. There is usually no need. Healing the cruiser will not provide more damage to the big bad, when there is a cruiser, compared to healing myself - because even in my science ships I put out more damage than most cruisers I have seen (or played)
If I want to do all, I fly a carrier. Specifically, the Recluse. One of the 3 best carriers in the game. The 3rd best being the Klingon carrier (not the cruiser one, the other. I am terrible with names) while the BEST carrier, if you have the JHAS, is the JHDC. Otherwise Recluse takes first.
You go in pvp with your tacs and escorts to see how 1 sci can stomp on what you believe to be OP tac in escort.If you would pvp you will start to ask sci powers to be nerfed....see the paradox.
Just because the game has no PvE missions for engineers or science officer doesnt mean the class that is the most efficient for those missions is OP or needs to be nerfed.It means Cryptic needs to add types of missions for scis or engineers.
Stop nerfing things, just add a balance to heal or fix dual beams to compensate. NERFING ALMOST NEVER WORKS! I remember when they nerfed Andorian Phasers, it was dumb, and it took a lot away from the real difference between Andorian aggressiveness versus normal Federation approach. This was already nullified by Fleet weapons, but it gave people options who were not part of Fleets. Pesonally, All you have to do is change procs to 5% for beams compared to 2.5% for cannons. This will easily balance out the weapon issue. Also, fix the **** ships so they ALL feel unique, that way beam ships give bonuses to beams.
Part way there
Procs for beams need to be 10%. The augmented damage potential of beams, compared to that of cannons, is not enough for an extra 2.5% to the proc to matter.
Additionally, I think, they need to double the proc chance on a critical hit, while removing all the NPCs artificial immunities.
Because of immunities to power drain and subsystem disable, phasers and polaron weapons are virtually worthless in pve content - and game mechanics are far too broken for pvp to ever be worth doing. If I want to pvp I will play a game who's fundamental mechancis arent so broken that it makes one or two ships (not ship-types, ships) superior to everything else (yes, you know it - a certain andorian escort and a certain tholian carrier)
I have an engineering toon in a Fleet Assault Cruiser, and with A2B I can easily top 10-12k DPS, which is perfectly acceptable for STF's.
There are undoubtedly problems with balance, but that's never going to change because that's the nature of MMOs. Do Tac officers have a slight advantage in STO? You betcha.
BUT, it isn't impossible to make the other careers work. Scis and Engis both play their respective roles in PvP, and many are experts at completely shutting down Tacs. The problem, really, is time. If people wanted to play STFs and other PvE content in full team form, then they would take more time to complete than a five Tac eplosive DPS team. Once the fun and wonder is gone from PvE, and the grind sets in, nobody cares about how to do something in a well-rounded fashion, all that matters is time. With Tacs, time is saved and more resources gained.
So, unless they fundamentally restructure the way PvE works, the nature of time simply works against Engis and Scis. However, like I said, never let it be perpetrated that you can't make the non-Tacs work because they can and do.
IT IS THE CAPTAIN OF A SHIP THAT MATTERS MOST. The equipment and build are secondary to the player flying and making the decisions.
Starfleet: Persephone, Silas, Alexandra, Purrs-a-lot, Insanity, Alala, Nicki Minaj, Apathy and Liz Lemon KDF: Absolution, Vox, Vadim, Sammiches and Unknown Refugee Member of Network 23 FED and Imperial Legion
unfortunatly it seems like the devs have got themselves into a system of...
The grandest irony here, is if Cryptic/PWE were to design and release a C-store escort-hunter ship -- say, a T5 science vessel with a "prefix code brute force" console or something, that killed weapons and engines for a short duration -- it would probably be the best-selling ship in the game's history.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:
I have an engineering toon in a Fleet Assault Cruiser, and with A2B I can easily top 10-12k DPS, which is perfectly acceptable for STF's.
There are undoubtedly problems with balance, but that's never going to change because that's the nature of MMOs. Do Tac officers have a slight advantage in STO? You betcha.
BUT, it isn't impossible to make the other careers work. Scis and Engis both play their respective roles in PvP, and many are experts at completely shutting down Tacs. The problem, really, is time. If people wanted to play STFs and other PvE content in full team form, then they would take more time to complete than a five Tac eplosive DPS team. Once the fun and wonder is gone from PvE, and the grind sets in, nobody cares about how to do something in a well-rounded fashion, all that matters is time. With Tacs, time is saved and more resources gained.
So, unless they fundamentally restructure the way PvE works, the nature of time simply works against Engis and Scis. However, like I said, never let it be perpetrated that you can't make the non-Tacs work because they can and do.
IT IS THE CAPTAIN OF A SHIP THAT MATTERS MOST. The equipment and build are secondary to the player flying and making the decisions.
Ah, no. It doesnt matter if you are tactical, engineering, or science. What matters is your ship. It should be, that the captain matters most, but frankly, it doesnt. Your build, your ship, is what matters most in both PvE and PvP.
EVE is a game where it is the captain that matters, not so much the ship (assuming you arent doing anything insanely crazy like going to an incursion spot in a shuttle). People used to compare EVE and STO. This is an unfair comparison.
EVE is a simulation-based game, who's developers have a deep and massive love for the game, and understand that they have to listen to their community or the community stops giving them money.
STO is a casual game, who's developers are barely competent and possess no real writing talent. The development team is run by a management team that ignore anything negative the community has to say, pretending the problems don't exist. Rather then being open and active with the community, to find out where the problems are and what we think could fix them, they (occasionally) admit that there are sometimes problems, but wont do anything to fix them.
Refer to my quote - from the developer that says he believes things should be nerfed to be balanced if something is OP, and if he could he would bring cannon energy drain in line with beams, but that cannons will never be changed - for proof.
Many of us, myself included, are only here because it is the only active star trek game around. But as we are here, as we are active, we have every right to try and see the game made the best it can be. But, knowing Cryptic, it will fall on deaf ears.
The grandest irony here, is if Cryptic/PWE were to design and release a C-store escort-hunter ship -- say, a T5 science vessel with a "prefix code brute force" console or something, that killed weapons and engines for a short duration -- it would probably be the best-selling ship in the game's history.
ok as i remember it from all the movies and shows
uss enterpriise constitution class heavr crusier'
refit enterprise and 1791a heavy cruiser
uss excelesior battleship transwarp test bed
uss enterprise 1701 d explorer
uss voyager light exploer
defiant heavy escort
nebula light explorer
ambassador heavy cruiser
akira heavy cruser
as far as the federation is concerned their ships usually refelct their more diplomatic and peacefull demeanor.
Therefore there has only been a few times that the federation has built cruisers that were warships for example.
Consitiution class : This ship was redesigned to fight during the federation / klingon war made famous in film and lore.
This class was finally decomissiond when the excelsior class went full opperational and the federation started fielding them.
Excelsior class battle cruiser : Initially the prototype was part of the "Great experiment" the transwarp drive.
However it was a a battle cruiser built to fight and once the federation got around to putting them on the battlefield they performed great.
Some wonder why did the federation wait 2 years to put them in service simple the federation still hoped the klingons would just see things their way and negotiate once it was clear they werent then the federation put this warship into service.
Sovereign class : This was a battlecruiser built to fight the borg but could easily handle the dominion if need be.
There are more example but these are the ones i see ingame so lets see how close cryptic came on these three
1) Consitution class cruiser : Its exactly what i expected from this class not because of tier but because the canon version wasnt to heavily armed...but it could hold its own in the hand of a capable captain was a strong ship.
Cryptic did a good job on this ship
2) Excelsior class battlecruiser: At all tiers this was a spot on target ship cryptic did this ship justice it can turn real well for a cruiser but then again it is a warship.
If you know how to arm this ship and use it this ship is powerfull heck i used a tier 3 excelsior well into rear admiral then i traded it in for a retrofit of this ship.
So i think cryptic hit on target with this class.
3) Sovereign class : And this is where cryptic got it wrong this ship turns ok but its woefully underpowered for a warship of its size and class.
I have slapped everything i could on this thing including AP beams but still its just a big target with no real power behind it.
So at the end of the day a cruiser can be strong but choose your cruiser wisely and research setups for your ship and talk around learn how to best fly your cruiser.
True this is Star Trek Offline : Escort Battle Simulator
Rejoice kiddies, when LoR hits and the changes to EPtW go live ships with an engi Lt. CMDR slot can get 30% extra damage buff with 100% uptime. This will be a pretty big boost to cruiser damage. Most escorts will have to make due with a 20% bonus from a Lt. slot.
Rejoice kiddies, when LoR hits and the changes to EPtW go live ships with an engi Lt. CMDR slot can get 30% extra damage buff with 100% uptime. This will be a pretty big boost to cruiser damage. Most escorts will have to make due with a 20% bonus from a Lt. slot.
Cue the whining from the PvP set. You know it will happen.
DHC's aren't the problem. It's everything else. With the advent of certain console set bonuses, current skill system and Doffs, power management is nonexistent, Alphas can be up pretty much all the time with reduced CD bonuses from Doffs and Shields can be pretty much ignored with certain weapons and set bonuses. All of which serves Escorts better than any other ship.
Cue the whining from the PvP set. You know it will happen.
To be fair the EptX changes are quite significant. Now a different type of layout will be looked as the bestest and greatest! Most ships will probably benefit from running two EPtX powers, EPtA and EPtW for sci vessels for example.
Which ships will come out the big winners remains to be seen; however, I do think that contrary to the devs intent this change will make having redundant engi ensign stations even more punishing that it used to be.
Rejoice kiddies, when LoR hits and the changes to EPtW go live ships with an engi Lt. CMDR slot can get 30% extra damage buff with 100% uptime. This will be a pretty big boost to cruiser damage. Most escorts will have to make due with a 20% bonus from a Lt. slot.
Except its not 30% its only about 16%. Worth using EPTW 1 for 10% sure but not worth losing your lt commander slots for.
Rejoice kiddies, when LoR hits and the changes to EPtW go live ships with an engi Lt. CMDR slot can get 30% extra damage buff with 100% uptime. This will be a pretty big boost to cruiser damage. Most escorts will have to make due with a 20% bonus from a Lt. slot.
So a lt. CMDR boff ability that needs to be used to have enough power to counter beam drain and it'll give me a damage boost of 30% vs an escorts 20% and in the end is worth around the value of a single Tac Console slot. I hope you see the irony.
So a lt. CMDR boff ability that needs to be used to have enough power to counter beam drain and it'll give me a damage boost of 30% vs an escorts 20% and in the end is worth around the value of a single Tac Console slot. I hope you see the irony.
Wish people would actually do the damn testing before complaining about skills.
EPTW 1 = +10%
EPTW 2 = +13%
EPTW 3 = +16%
Thats it. No 20%, no 30%. Its really not that big a deal.
Wish people would actually do the damn testing before complaining about skills.
EPTW 1 = +10%
EPTW 2 = +13%
EPTW 3 = +16%
Thats it. No 20%, no 30%. Its really not that big a deal.
So EPtW III makes ticklebeams tickle only 3% less than Escorts rocking EPtW II, but those Escorts are still using cannons? And maybe even better attack patterns?
Wish people would actually do the damn testing before complaining about skills.
EPTW 1 = +10%
EPTW 2 = +13%
EPTW 3 = +16%
Thats it. No 20%, no 30%. Its really not that big a deal.
Well, his point was that it was painfully small, not some huge boon to cruisers, so the specific actual values weren't needed. That said, the thread went to **** again in the last 2 pages with people chiming in comments without even understanding the current meta-game for pve setups, so might as well gas the entire thread. but your numbers perfectly shows his tribal knowledge argument, and how even people who take the time to go on the official forums apparently aren't even able to find the useful information to comment in threads like this with any sort of relevance. Anything from the actual math you've listed above to cruiser setups that do as much damage as escorts in pve. There are multiple posts stating the latter just 2 pages back in this very thread for crying out loud :mad:
During a recent interview, Geko suggested a nerf to Dual Heavy Cannons. May I say that this is first sensible idea he has ever had. Escorts Alpha Strike has gone from mildly annoying in Season One to outright ridiculous in Season Six.
I am aware that Cryptic prefer Escorts over Cruisers and Science Vessels. Possibly because they fail to understand that Starfleet is a cruiser heavy organisation, vessels they classed as escorts are not actually escorts, for example;
Saber = Frigate
Steamrunner = Cruiser
Akira = Heavy Cruiser
Intrepid = Light Cruiser (Classed as Science Vessel only because Janeway of Voyager was a former Science Offficer)
Perhaps it is time to go further and change the "ship trinity" completely for one more in keeping with traditional Starfleet. Cryptic has already shown they are willing to do this by classing the Chimera as a "Destroyer", a comfortable mix between Escort and Cruiser.
So maybe Engineering and Science powers need to be completely reworked and we need to lose the "Escort" catagory, to which the Defiant-Class is the only true escort in that sense and provide uniqueness to each vessel rather then just being one of a catagory.
Lets finally remove all the barriers and let people truly be creative with their own vessels. I find it really hard to get attached to my ships if it has such gaping flaws which are not apparent in canon.
So maybe this game could learn from EvE Online's success with their ship catagories and provide more.
Not true, Alphastrikes have gone up as much as the rediculous resistance these days getting close to topping their max (75% or what)
If you die to every escorts alpha you're doing it wrong.
cruiser setups that do as much damage as escorts in pve. There are multiple posts stating the latter just 2 pages back in this very thread for crying out loud :mad:
The acolytes of the almighty aux2batt are the ones with the kool aid you are seeking. That's the only setup that there's parses for which "do as much damage as escorts in pve."
But I'm not here to pick nits with those parses or the situational issues that make the whole thing kind of "Wha?"
You ask them for their kool aid. You kit your ship out with the gear to run it. And you try it for yourself.
If you don't feel like doing it on one of your current ships, set a Romulan up for it in the new D'Deridex or Mogai later this month.
Snoggy, you realize I'm the OP in the how to spec your cruiser for dps in stfs in the character build forum, right? I've been testing it for months and am routinely in the stf record runs thread. It's not some kind of trick numbers/parse pimping madness only, mainly because stfs are very rarely single target affairs. I see no issue with having to jump through a few extra hoops to setup a cruiser for pure damage as it's not its traditional role in the game. It does lend to the tribal knowledge issue though, in that it's certainly not something most are going to see without a guide. Compounded by the fact that posters like yourself seem hard set against it for some unknown reason, other than it getting in the way of your bug love affair.
Not true, Alphastrikes have gone up as much as the rediculous resistance these days getting close to topping their max (75% or what)
If you die to every escorts alpha you're doing it wrong.
people at cryptic thought to hey lets make GDF useless or force people destroy their ships to be able to use it ...not to get damage from escort dps ships in game ...that way making tactical class the only class with 1 less power or 1 power more for the spacebar bind.Im pretty sure by s9 all tac powers will be removed and only damage buff will be attack patterns (which will be also nerfed of course ...to many PvE'ers QQ they die in pvp so damage needs a nerf)
funny how they have time to TRIBBLE powers but to fix TIF is always to time demanding.:rolleyes:
mainly because stfs are very rarely single target affairs.
You and I definitely disagree on this.
I'll try to keep this simple without getting into every little detail of each individual STF. But firing at targets that are regenerating may help your DPS parse, but do not help achieve the actual objective. Firing at will hits thing like gateways, conduits, cubes still protected, and all sorts of other things that simply are wasted shots.
Yeah, firing at will at three probes making for the gateway is helpful but the shots that fire at the gateway when doing that, not so helpful. Firing at will at two borgified raptors is great. Firing at the rest of the stuff near the cube, including the still protected cube? Not so helpful.
Yup, to me it's kool aid. Keep handing it out. But firing at everything around you isn't always the best tactic in those encounters.
Now, care to share a DPS build for a cruiser that isn't tied to Aux2Batt?
During a recent interview, Geko suggested a nerf to Dual Heavy Cannons. May I say that this is first sensible idea he has ever had. Escorts Alpha Strike has gone from mildly annoying in Season One to outright ridiculous in Season Six.
You have not thought this out very much have you?
Weapons have not had their damage stats changed at ALL since season 1.
The reason why escorts do such ridiculous damage with ANY weapon is due to several factors that stack to make it so:
1- Rank-based stat bonuses. You can easily see this happen when your character goes up in rank (aka every 10 levels). If you're in combat when you rank up (say, Cmdr to Captain) you will notice your ship INSTANTLY receives a huge boost in turn rate, weapon damage, accuracy and many other stats. Its so huge you actually notice it the moment the rank up audio congratulation message happens and your ship starts to feel like it just had an injection of awesome.
2- Simplification/dumbed down tactical stat skill boxes while the engineering and science skill boxes were not simplified like tactical did..in fact engineering and science got re-arranged so that the most powerful bonuses were granted at low level skill boxes... a perfect thing for escorts so they needed not spend that much skill points to max out their ship.
Pre-F2P a tac captain had to choose among many different weapon skill boxes and thus could never max out the accuracy, defense and damage bonus giving boxes of every weapon type. When F2P dumbed the whole thing down so the boxes affected all weapons equally.
Notice how many boxes tactical had. Engineering had just as many and science had just as many. Notice too how the engineering skills were re-arranged post F2P: Shield, weapons, repair.. basically all the 'tank' skills were moved from rank 4 and 5 skill boxes down to rank 1 and 2. This is why escorts can tank now.
Science boxes aren't shown in the pic but I can tell you there used to be a box for spatial anomalies, astrometrics and one that affected holographic stuff (I forget its name). Science had its healing abilities in tier 4 and 5 boxes, its damage skills in tier 3 and 4 and its utility (sensor, tractor,etc) stuff in tier 1 and 2.
So, back in pre-F2P an escort could not possibly max out an energy weapon line, a torpedo weapon line and have enough points to also max out science and engineering tanking/healing abilities. Back then an escort was in DEEP trouble if it got snared (tractored) or its shields got shot off (it couldn't heal them nor its hull fast enough). Escorts relied on speed and turn rate to do hit and run attacks focusing on one shield facing.
...which brings us to reason #3:
3- Tac team was given shield autobalance. Pre-F2P this did not exist. A ship in combat had to balance its shields manually and the escort's niche was to apply focused spike damage on one shield facing as they were the only ships fast enough and with the turn rate to maneuver to take such shots. Post-F2P it ceased to matter where you shot the enemy ship since you had to shoot down its entire combined shield strength anyway.
Fortunately for escorts, and unfortunately for cruisers and sci ships, the devs pulled yet another dumb move and gave escorts a buff to attack patterns.
If memory serves me right, attack omega used to be around 12% bonus and it got bumped up to 25%. Omega was also given the absurd immunity to snares and a bonus to defense which it did not have befre (thus making escorts almost impossible to kill by any means other than gunning them down..you cant snare them nor slow them nor debuff them and in many cases, HIT them because of omega's bonuses). Pre-F2P omega was merely a very good speed/turn rate boost with a decent damage bonus.
Back then, escorts were #2 damage dealers..cruisers were #1 (8 beams). The difference was the escort could put its damage on one shield facing and control the engagement via maneuvering while the slow cruiser had to literally wear down its targets defenses while keeping itself alive by tanking.
When F2P hit live and all the above changes happened the escorts became idiotically overpowered. Their weapons were fully maxed out as a default thanks to the dumbing down of the tactical skill trees. Thanks to the significant bonus-stats per rank the damage output soared. Thanks to the buffs to omega the damage was further increased while at the same time removing the escort's only weakness: being snared.
..and finally, thanks to the relocation of all the healing and tanking skills from engineering and science tier 4 and 5 skill boxes to tier 1 and 2 , escorts could also max out their tanking and healing abilities.
Science and engineering ships oth received no comparable bonuses or benefits. They cannot use omega in most ships, do not have a functional engineering or science offensive abilities since cryptic actively nerfed the stats they were based upon (to benefit escorts more) and they cant match the escorts' dps due to their lack of tac consoles, tac boff slots and weapon slots.
There's a reason why c-store and lockbox engineering and science ships of late have been released with tactical-heavy options. Since every other class in the game was FUBARD'd on purpose they have to release ships that have tac benefits on them.
All in all, this is either incompetent game and systems design or PWI's mandate to milk this cow. I think it's a bit of both.
Comments
And if you don't even bother to read the last page of the thread, post if you like hearing yourself talk.
And your opinion is wrong.
I play a science officer who flies a Recluse. I put out an hell of a lot of DPS
I play a tactical officer who flies a dedicated tactical ship, and a science vessel. I put out respectable dps in the science vessel - and massive dps in the escort.
I have played an engineer in a cruiser - but have not done so since season 2. They just aren't viable for any roll anymore. With even a couple escorts in pve content, things dont live long enough to worry about tanking (on average, in my recluse, most stfs take 10 minutes to finish - not counting the one with Donatra, which takes 15 minutes to finish)
No. If I want to kill stuff, I fly an escort
If I want survivability, I fly an escort. I kill stuff too quickly to die
If I want to heal, I fly... well... that is pointless. I don't heal others. There is usually no need. Healing the cruiser will not provide more damage to the big bad, when there is a cruiser, compared to healing myself - because even in my science ships I put out more damage than most cruisers I have seen (or played)
If I want to do all, I fly a carrier. Specifically, the Recluse. One of the 3 best carriers in the game. The 3rd best being the Klingon carrier (not the cruiser one, the other. I am terrible with names) while the BEST carrier, if you have the JHAS, is the JHDC. Otherwise Recluse takes first.
PvE is not important for class ballance.
You go in pvp with your tacs and escorts to see how 1 sci can stomp on what you believe to be OP tac in escort.If you would pvp you will start to ask sci powers to be nerfed....see the paradox.
Just because the game has no PvE missions for engineers or science officer doesnt mean the class that is the most efficient for those missions is OP or needs to be nerfed.It means Cryptic needs to add types of missions for scis or engineers.
Part way there
Procs for beams need to be 10%. The augmented damage potential of beams, compared to that of cannons, is not enough for an extra 2.5% to the proc to matter.
Additionally, I think, they need to double the proc chance on a critical hit, while removing all the NPCs artificial immunities.
Because of immunities to power drain and subsystem disable, phasers and polaron weapons are virtually worthless in pve content - and game mechanics are far too broken for pvp to ever be worth doing. If I want to pvp I will play a game who's fundamental mechancis arent so broken that it makes one or two ships (not ship-types, ships) superior to everything else (yes, you know it - a certain andorian escort and a certain tholian carrier)
There are undoubtedly problems with balance, but that's never going to change because that's the nature of MMOs. Do Tac officers have a slight advantage in STO? You betcha.
BUT, it isn't impossible to make the other careers work. Scis and Engis both play their respective roles in PvP, and many are experts at completely shutting down Tacs. The problem, really, is time. If people wanted to play STFs and other PvE content in full team form, then they would take more time to complete than a five Tac eplosive DPS team. Once the fun and wonder is gone from PvE, and the grind sets in, nobody cares about how to do something in a well-rounded fashion, all that matters is time. With Tacs, time is saved and more resources gained.
So, unless they fundamentally restructure the way PvE works, the nature of time simply works against Engis and Scis. However, like I said, never let it be perpetrated that you can't make the non-Tacs work because they can and do.
IT IS THE CAPTAIN OF A SHIP THAT MATTERS MOST. The equipment and build are secondary to the player flying and making the decisions.
KDF: Absolution, Vox, Vadim, Sammiches and Unknown Refugee
Member of Network 23 FED and Imperial Legion
The grandest irony here, is if Cryptic/PWE were to design and release a C-store escort-hunter ship -- say, a T5 science vessel with a "prefix code brute force" console or something, that killed weapons and engines for a short duration -- it would probably be the best-selling ship in the game's history.
Spock's Brain.
Ah, no. It doesnt matter if you are tactical, engineering, or science. What matters is your ship. It should be, that the captain matters most, but frankly, it doesnt. Your build, your ship, is what matters most in both PvE and PvP.
EVE is a game where it is the captain that matters, not so much the ship (assuming you arent doing anything insanely crazy like going to an incursion spot in a shuttle). People used to compare EVE and STO. This is an unfair comparison.
EVE is a simulation-based game, who's developers have a deep and massive love for the game, and understand that they have to listen to their community or the community stops giving them money.
STO is a casual game, who's developers are barely competent and possess no real writing talent. The development team is run by a management team that ignore anything negative the community has to say, pretending the problems don't exist. Rather then being open and active with the community, to find out where the problems are and what we think could fix them, they (occasionally) admit that there are sometimes problems, but wont do anything to fix them.
Refer to my quote - from the developer that says he believes things should be nerfed to be balanced if something is OP, and if he could he would bring cannon energy drain in line with beams, but that cannons will never be changed - for proof.
Many of us, myself included, are only here because it is the only active star trek game around. But as we are here, as we are active, we have every right to try and see the game made the best it can be. But, knowing Cryptic, it will fall on deaf ears.
you can do that now without any console .
The only thing that makes my sci ship worthwhile.
DON'T NERF SCIENCE
uss enterpriise constitution class heavr crusier'
refit enterprise and 1791a heavy cruiser
uss excelesior battleship transwarp test bed
uss enterprise 1701 d explorer
uss voyager light exploer
defiant heavy escort
nebula light explorer
ambassador heavy cruiser
akira heavy cruser
as far as the federation is concerned their ships usually refelct their more diplomatic and peacefull demeanor.
Therefore there has only been a few times that the federation has built cruisers that were warships for example.
Consitiution class : This ship was redesigned to fight during the federation / klingon war made famous in film and lore.
This class was finally decomissiond when the excelsior class went full opperational and the federation started fielding them.
Excelsior class battle cruiser : Initially the prototype was part of the "Great experiment" the transwarp drive.
However it was a a battle cruiser built to fight and once the federation got around to putting them on the battlefield they performed great.
Some wonder why did the federation wait 2 years to put them in service simple the federation still hoped the klingons would just see things their way and negotiate once it was clear they werent then the federation put this warship into service.
Sovereign class : This was a battlecruiser built to fight the borg but could easily handle the dominion if need be.
There are more example but these are the ones i see ingame so lets see how close cryptic came on these three
1) Consitution class cruiser : Its exactly what i expected from this class not because of tier but because the canon version wasnt to heavily armed...but it could hold its own in the hand of a capable captain was a strong ship.
Cryptic did a good job on this ship
2) Excelsior class battlecruiser: At all tiers this was a spot on target ship cryptic did this ship justice it can turn real well for a cruiser but then again it is a warship.
If you know how to arm this ship and use it this ship is powerfull heck i used a tier 3 excelsior well into rear admiral then i traded it in for a retrofit of this ship.
So i think cryptic hit on target with this class.
3) Sovereign class : And this is where cryptic got it wrong this ship turns ok but its woefully underpowered for a warship of its size and class.
I have slapped everything i could on this thing including AP beams but still its just a big target with no real power behind it.
So at the end of the day a cruiser can be strong but choose your cruiser wisely and research setups for your ship and talk around learn how to best fly your cruiser.
True this is Star Trek Offline : Escort Battle Simulator
But you can make a tough cruiser
Cue the whining from the PvP set. You know it will happen.
The best answer for whiners is
"Learn to fly your ship"
A good captain will learn a great captain will learn adapt and excell with the new changes.
To be fair the EptX changes are quite significant. Now a different type of layout will be looked as the bestest and greatest! Most ships will probably benefit from running two EPtX powers, EPtA and EPtW for sci vessels for example.
Which ships will come out the big winners remains to be seen; however, I do think that contrary to the devs intent this change will make having redundant engi ensign stations even more punishing that it used to be.
Except its not 30% its only about 16%. Worth using EPTW 1 for 10% sure but not worth losing your lt commander slots for.
So a lt. CMDR boff ability that needs to be used to have enough power to counter beam drain and it'll give me a damage boost of 30% vs an escorts 20% and in the end is worth around the value of a single Tac Console slot. I hope you see the irony.
That's rarely true as the whining leads to nerfs and the L2P leads to nothing.
Wish people would actually do the damn testing before complaining about skills.
EPTW 1 = +10%
EPTW 2 = +13%
EPTW 3 = +16%
Thats it. No 20%, no 30%. Its really not that big a deal.
So EPtW III makes ticklebeams tickle only 3% less than Escorts rocking EPtW II, but those Escorts are still using cannons? And maybe even better attack patterns?
This will be fun.
Well, his point was that it was painfully small, not some huge boon to cruisers, so the specific actual values weren't needed. That said, the thread went to **** again in the last 2 pages with people chiming in comments without even understanding the current meta-game for pve setups, so might as well gas the entire thread. but your numbers perfectly shows his tribal knowledge argument, and how even people who take the time to go on the official forums apparently aren't even able to find the useful information to comment in threads like this with any sort of relevance. Anything from the actual math you've listed above to cruiser setups that do as much damage as escorts in pve. There are multiple posts stating the latter just 2 pages back in this very thread for crying out loud :mad:
Not true, Alphastrikes have gone up as much as the rediculous resistance these days getting close to topping their max (75% or what)
If you die to every escorts alpha you're doing it wrong.
The acolytes of the almighty aux2batt are the ones with the kool aid you are seeking. That's the only setup that there's parses for which "do as much damage as escorts in pve."
But I'm not here to pick nits with those parses or the situational issues that make the whole thing kind of "Wha?"
You ask them for their kool aid. You kit your ship out with the gear to run it. And you try it for yourself.
If you don't feel like doing it on one of your current ships, set a Romulan up for it in the new D'Deridex or Mogai later this month.
people at cryptic thought to hey lets make GDF useless or force people destroy their ships to be able to use it ...not to get damage from escort dps ships in game ...that way making tactical class the only class with 1 less power or 1 power more for the spacebar bind.Im pretty sure by s9 all tac powers will be removed and only damage buff will be attack patterns (which will be also nerfed of course ...to many PvE'ers QQ they die in pvp so damage needs a nerf)
funny how they have time to TRIBBLE powers but to fix TIF is always to time demanding.:rolleyes:
You and I definitely disagree on this.
I'll try to keep this simple without getting into every little detail of each individual STF. But firing at targets that are regenerating may help your DPS parse, but do not help achieve the actual objective. Firing at will hits thing like gateways, conduits, cubes still protected, and all sorts of other things that simply are wasted shots.
Yeah, firing at will at three probes making for the gateway is helpful but the shots that fire at the gateway when doing that, not so helpful. Firing at will at two borgified raptors is great. Firing at the rest of the stuff near the cube, including the still protected cube? Not so helpful.
Yup, to me it's kool aid. Keep handing it out. But firing at everything around you isn't always the best tactic in those encounters.
Now, care to share a DPS build for a cruiser that isn't tied to Aux2Batt?
You have not thought this out very much have you?
Weapons have not had their damage stats changed at ALL since season 1.
The reason why escorts do such ridiculous damage with ANY weapon is due to several factors that stack to make it so:
1- Rank-based stat bonuses. You can easily see this happen when your character goes up in rank (aka every 10 levels). If you're in combat when you rank up (say, Cmdr to Captain) you will notice your ship INSTANTLY receives a huge boost in turn rate, weapon damage, accuracy and many other stats. Its so huge you actually notice it the moment the rank up audio congratulation message happens and your ship starts to feel like it just had an injection of awesome.
2- Simplification/dumbed down tactical stat skill boxes while the engineering and science skill boxes were not simplified like tactical did..in fact engineering and science got re-arranged so that the most powerful bonuses were granted at low level skill boxes... a perfect thing for escorts so they needed not spend that much skill points to max out their ship.
Take a look at the old skill tree: Pre-F2P Skill Tree
Pre-F2P a tac captain had to choose among many different weapon skill boxes and thus could never max out the accuracy, defense and damage bonus giving boxes of every weapon type. When F2P dumbed the whole thing down so the boxes affected all weapons equally.
Notice how many boxes tactical had. Engineering had just as many and science had just as many. Notice too how the engineering skills were re-arranged post F2P: Shield, weapons, repair.. basically all the 'tank' skills were moved from rank 4 and 5 skill boxes down to rank 1 and 2. This is why escorts can tank now.
Science boxes aren't shown in the pic but I can tell you there used to be a box for spatial anomalies, astrometrics and one that affected holographic stuff (I forget its name). Science had its healing abilities in tier 4 and 5 boxes, its damage skills in tier 3 and 4 and its utility (sensor, tractor,etc) stuff in tier 1 and 2.
So, back in pre-F2P an escort could not possibly max out an energy weapon line, a torpedo weapon line and have enough points to also max out science and engineering tanking/healing abilities. Back then an escort was in DEEP trouble if it got snared (tractored) or its shields got shot off (it couldn't heal them nor its hull fast enough). Escorts relied on speed and turn rate to do hit and run attacks focusing on one shield facing.
...which brings us to reason #3:
3- Tac team was given shield autobalance. Pre-F2P this did not exist. A ship in combat had to balance its shields manually and the escort's niche was to apply focused spike damage on one shield facing as they were the only ships fast enough and with the turn rate to maneuver to take such shots. Post-F2P it ceased to matter where you shot the enemy ship since you had to shoot down its entire combined shield strength anyway.
Fortunately for escorts, and unfortunately for cruisers and sci ships, the devs pulled yet another dumb move and gave escorts a buff to attack patterns.
If memory serves me right, attack omega used to be around 12% bonus and it got bumped up to 25%. Omega was also given the absurd immunity to snares and a bonus to defense which it did not have befre (thus making escorts almost impossible to kill by any means other than gunning them down..you cant snare them nor slow them nor debuff them and in many cases, HIT them because of omega's bonuses). Pre-F2P omega was merely a very good speed/turn rate boost with a decent damage bonus.
Back then, escorts were #2 damage dealers..cruisers were #1 (8 beams). The difference was the escort could put its damage on one shield facing and control the engagement via maneuvering while the slow cruiser had to literally wear down its targets defenses while keeping itself alive by tanking.
When F2P hit live and all the above changes happened the escorts became idiotically overpowered. Their weapons were fully maxed out as a default thanks to the dumbing down of the tactical skill trees. Thanks to the significant bonus-stats per rank the damage output soared. Thanks to the buffs to omega the damage was further increased while at the same time removing the escort's only weakness: being snared.
..and finally, thanks to the relocation of all the healing and tanking skills from engineering and science tier 4 and 5 skill boxes to tier 1 and 2 , escorts could also max out their tanking and healing abilities.
Science and engineering ships oth received no comparable bonuses or benefits. They cannot use omega in most ships, do not have a functional engineering or science offensive abilities since cryptic actively nerfed the stats they were based upon (to benefit escorts more) and they cant match the escorts' dps due to their lack of tac consoles, tac boff slots and weapon slots.
There's a reason why c-store and lockbox engineering and science ships of late have been released with tactical-heavy options. Since every other class in the game was FUBARD'd on purpose they have to release ships that have tac benefits on them.
All in all, this is either incompetent game and systems design or PWI's mandate to milk this cow. I think it's a bit of both.