The more I think about this, beams need to be buffed, even if DHCs could use a small amount of nerfing.
The test would be an all-cruiser match (i.e. DHCs out of the picture.)
Would anyone ever die?
The one who would be the first that needs to visit toilet.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
The energy drain attached to a weapon happens whenever it successfully activates. What you're seeing in this video, is the successful activation of FAW, because it is a power that applies to the area around your ship regardless of whether or not there are any targets nearby.
When we get our FAW+ACC code in place, we'll see if we can correct this issue at all. You should only be drained energy if your beam actually fires at a target. Not just if it activates.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
The energy drain attached to a weapon happens whenever it successfully activates. What you're seeing in this video, is the successful activation of FAW, because it is a power that applies to the area around your ship regardless of whether or not there are any targets nearby.
When we get our FAW+ACC code in place, we'll see if we can correct this issue at all. You should only be drained energy if your beam actually fires at a target. Not just if it activates.
Thanks for the clarity
When is this FAW+ACC code coming out? was wondering what was going on with it. It sounded as you guys made progress and then it all went silent....
How will adding more drain make DHCs work "properly" if they only are efficient becuase they fire slower than beams, will they not still have the rest period under the drain rules that give them that efficieny?
The real issue with weapon power drain was that the values where all designed to work under the old energy drain mechanic.
Honestly it was a better mechanic and needs to return. Who ever was responsible for the change made a mistake bottom line.
Considering the changes to the skill tree since that have increased every ones base EPS transfer rate... the issues they where worried about before with the system being Cryptic to newer players that didn't understand EPS transfer would increase there dps would be a lot less of an issue. Compounding that items like the Borg Weapon 2 piece proc omega amp wouldn't have the issues the devs had seen with it when they changed it.
I guess I am saying is with the current level of skills and items... the old drain mechanic would correct many of the issues we have with weapon disparity.
I wonder why they do resist so much to simply make beams hit fewer times per volley. Same dps, just 1 hit instead 4, with 4x more base dmg. One big hit, then cooldown period for weapon energy to replenish.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I wonder why they do resist so much to simply make beams hit fewer times per volley. Same dps, just 1 hit instead 4, with 4x more base dmg. One big hit, then cooldown period for weapon energy to replenish.
Well as long as the properly adjusted skills like beam overload I don't see why it would be a major issue. Of course the cool down I think would have to be as long as its now or we would be turning every beam cruiser into the dreaded turret boat proc machine.
The more I think about this, beams need to be buffed, even if DHCs could use a small amount of nerfing.
The test would be an all-cruiser match (i.e. DHCs out of the picture.)
Would anyone ever die?
You know if you took SNB out of the picture and kept DHCs there are matches where no one would die either.
This is why Gecko's comments are something I really hope never see the light of day.
Nerfing DHCs are not the answer, I know they feel like terror in the ques to unprepared and unskilled players, but this will not fix the issues with beams, single cannons or DCs.
The energy drain attached to a weapon happens whenever it successfully activates. What you're seeing in this video, is the successful activation of FAW, because it is a power that applies to the area around your ship regardless of whether or not there are any targets nearby.
When we get our FAW+ACC code in place, we'll see if we can correct this issue at all. You should only be drained energy if your beam actually fires at a target. Not just if it activates.
Mimey has some interesting ideas on Beam Array efficiency issues here, the idea has merit even if the thread quickly devolved with uninformed, negative posts taking control (through no fault of mimey either).
IMO with DHC's and DC's the DHC's should have the higher damage and narrow arc that they do but I believe the DC's being they are less damage and require marginal less damage should also have an arc difference between the single cannon and DHC to make them more of an option to some of the slower turning ships like the bortasqu' for example which most of the viable builds with them require more beam coverage than cannon although it would feel more Klingon for ships like the one stated to be using cannons more so than beams.
Edit: Got a new PC so being its going to take a LONG time to get back in the game I might as well listen to the whole podcast, eat some food, take a vacation, wonder if some biological weapon is going to remove the ridges from all my KDF toons and possibly 100 kdf ships being released before I get this massive download patched lol.
I don't think either should benefit from acc traits as they're aoe effects coupled with rapid fire. Rapid firing anything should have an inverse affect on accuracy.
Any chance I could get a gattling pulsewave with acc for my ground guys ?
DHCs fire once per cycle and every shot is at the proper power level.
All other cannons fire twice per cycle and half the shots are at proper power level.
Beams fire four times per cycle and only a quarter of the shots are at proper power level.
The fix is simple. Make weapons remember their power level from the first shot and have it continue to use that power level for all of the shots.
Done, fixed.
Is Gecko even aware that this is the issue? That it really has nothing at all to do with the -10 power or -12 power or anything like that but instead the way the game does it's math? Or to be more precise when it does it's math?
Ok so in the UGC 4H interview around 3:26 Gecko shares his wisdom about Beams vs. Cannons.
1) according to Gecko, NI is doing fine, although i doubt he notices the complication of Marion and the uptime of NI and what it means to the Eng class.
Well let them rage, sci boats and cruisers have suffered long enough. So let's share some thoughts on how to nerf Dual Heavy Cannons, and make Duals and Singles more valuable.
DHC are to energy effective, imv. SO simple solution lets increase the drain. Maybe give duals a slight increase in arc.
Would it be a sensible target that only eng class, could run a 4 (5) DHC boat effectively, thanks to their cpt skills?
What are peoples thoughts on this? F@W fixing would be important as well, how about this?
havam, please wake up. don't lash out without looking at the big picture, be mad about the true cause of the problem.
healing is so strong that DHC spike is the only things can killed basically. nerfing them means things will no longer be killed, that spike that is all that maters wont exist anymore. instead, buffing other weapons so they can actually have an effect is the ONLY answer. sci boats and cruisers would no longer suffer, and healing could be shot through still.
listening now, i'll hear this for my self.
regarding that 14 year old comment, im sure he hates us. several of us have directly insulted him for years, some VERY harshly. we did this because of the imbalanced ships he is responsible for stating, and the introduction of consoles and items that have done terrible damage to balance. being lead designer, he is responsible.
so he calls us 14 year old, whatever. we called him worse. but i'll say this, its continues to be very disturbing to me that a lead like gecko is not a simi competent PVPer. you cant actually know the state of balance unless you actually pvp, the pve does not tell you what you need to know, ney, it misleads you. his opinion on beams, cannons, engines, its plain to see how the game suffers from his lack of actual experience in pvp, so he and many other devs have no point of reference on the actual state of balance.
anyone that would read the hilbert guide, and take a look at my thread, could go from a 0 talent pve'er to a competent pvper that gives me a run for my money. every single time i log on, without fail, a new or familiar thread reader will message me and thank me for the information in the thread, or ask for some individual help. after an hour or so, they have 1 hell of a ship and are well on thier way to at least pug successfully, and will grow in skill and competence from there.
the point is, getting good at pvp is fricking easy, it does not take a life long commitment. key binds, basic skill tree knowledge, knowing what skills effect what, and a good ship with good doffs and a good set of station skills is all you need.
so please gecko, become a pvper. theres all the information you need in my thread to make you one. do it so you can do your job better, so you know the actual state of balance.
It would be nice if we had a project with KDF players who have been waiting years for big development if we could start as doing voice overs and creating/moving the fek'ihr arc forward. Especially since its stated in one episode info I think colliseum that the fek'ihr are massing a large fleet under new leadership. Possibly starting some type of fek'ihr type mission que's for the KDF for possibly a rep system like omega with stuff vs them. Possibly something into helping the raptor front which has been lacking in STO.
DHCs fire once per cycle and every shot is at the proper power level.
All other cannons fire twice per cycle and half the shots are at proper power level.
Beams fire four times per cycle and only a quarter of the shots are at proper power level.
The fix is simple. Make weapons remember their power level from the first shot and have it continue to use that power level for all of the shots.
Done, fixed.
Is Gecko even aware that this is the issue? That it really has nothing at all to do with the -10 power or -12 power or anything like that but instead the way the game does it's math? Or to be more precise when it does it's math?
Ya that would be one way to go... but somehow I would bet Cryptic would mess up a major change that way.
The old system was better where the power was simply drained from the system the moment you fired at all... and was rechareged at eps values. At that point the system works just fine. I still don't really under stand what they where thinking when they changed the system to its current full power return at end of cycle sillyness.
Thats funny, I got an engie on an escort as well, and he DPS's almost as well as the TAC and can live longer. I wonder why I never considered buying a cruiser for him.
Hmmm..... I definitely gotta put my Chel Grett to work for my TAC toon.
If this is the case your tac is doing something severely wrong
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
I cannot believe he gets annoyed by those who min/max. Seriously half of designing a mechanic or game system is seeing if and how it can be broken. Min/Max ers are to game systems what editors are to books, they spot the mistakes and junk so the author can fix it.
Guess my Battle cruiser just became somewhat weaker as it has two DHCs becuase the other cannons suck as bad as beams do.
Bring on the KDF beam Battle Cruisers.
One step closer to vannilla.
"I don't think that beam boats are suffering." I can't even touch this one.
In response to the power drain of beams:
"You can always invest some skill points in...uh...uh, uh, what is it, Power Insulators? Uh, or uh there's certainly a number of, uh, Nadion Inversion? There's systems built into the game to help you mitigate that..." This is disturbing and explains a lot about STO. I understand the skill tree better than the lead designer... and that is horrifying. I never understood the contempt one person in particular held Geko in (he was hard on a lot of people) but I'm starting to get it.
"There's an awful lot of things that Science Vessels can do that other ships can't. People hate being confused, placated, or tractored, and that's what Science ships excel at." Except that what people hate are passive placate, danube tractors, and AMS. None of which are Science ship exclusive.
There are some very specific points to carry back to Geko.
1. Power drain is regularly sidestepped these days. You could make DHCs drain 20 per shot and it wouldn't matter.
2. The Science Vessel issue, which you say you couldn't see and chalked it up to the "support controller is hard to play" is that you have given all of the unique sci abilities away. That is the frustration you couldn't understand. Other ships can "support/control" and also accomplish another role.
3. Life here in the meta is hard. We are obsessive nerds and will call you out on your mistakes (PI). Think of us as a resource. If you don't want to parse logs you need to be talking to people who do. Let me repeat that: You need to parse logs and correctly interpret them. If you are not, what are you using to come to the conclusion that beam boats aren't suffering? If you are not willing to devote the time to understand what specific skills do, much less steep yourself in meta-game data until you dream about it, then outsource it. We are willing, we do it anyway. If not, you're basically saying that you want less data to use in the decision making process. Consider it an additional data point to go with whatever you are using now. I don't think the researchers' battle cry is "Less Data!"
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I hear players crying to nerf dual heavy cannons, why? Maybe what you should ask is that the beams get a boost. Because the beams lately, in my book, seem weak. You need the power of the escort to blow stuff up and the cruiser is more of a support ship. I fly a Galor and a fleet Assault cruiser and I love it. I can destroy stuff, just not as fast as a good escort player, key word 'good' escort player. So please cryptic, do not nerf the dual heavy cannon, look at giving beam arrays and dual beam bank a boost.
In response to the power drain of beams:
"You can always invest some skill points in...uh...uh, uh, what is it, Power Insulators? Uh, or uh there's certainly a number of, uh, Nadion Inversion? There's systems built into the game to help you mitigate that..." This is disturbing and explains a lot about STO. I understand the skill tree better than the lead designer... and that is horrifying. I never understood the contempt one person in particular held Geko in (he was hard on a lot of people) but I'm starting to get it.
...
Wow. Did he seriously say that Power Insulators affect weapon drain? And that Nadion is the best solution? I think the proper response here is this: bleh
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Ok so in the UGC 4H interview around 3:26 Gecko shares his wisdom about Beams vs. Cannons.
1) according to Gecko, NI is doing fine, although i doubt he notices the complication of Marion and the uptime of NI and what it means to the Eng class.
2) He will not buff Beams, but rather nerf Cannons, in particular Dual Heavy Cannons. But is scared that all the tac/scorts are going to rage.
Well let them rage, sci boats and cruisers have suffered long enough. So let's share some thoughts on how to nerf Dual Heavy Cannons, and make Duals and Singles more valuable.
DHC are to energy effective, imv. SO simple solution lets increase the drain. Maybe give duals a slight increase in arc.
Would it be a sensible target that only eng class, could run a 4 (5) DHC boat effectively, thanks to their cpt skills?
What are peoples thoughts on this? F@W fixing would be important as well, how about this?
He will not buff Beams, but rather nerf Cannons, in particular Dual Heavy Cannons. this is a huge mistake on there part they have no idea they need to play the game
Btw, did you ever figure out how to beat Extend Shields?
we figure it out but still extends are to powerful. in our test 1 bug shooting on a ship with 2 extends 3 and tss, 85% resist. it took a while to destroy the ship. i wish cryptic would allow only one extend on a ship at any given time. that was with dual heavy cannon. if they nerf it it will make extends the most powerful ability in the game
Comments
The one who would be the first that needs to visit toilet.
Well I'm not really sure that would result in a kill. I think the passive procs might just get you through for 2-10min. lol
This is proof of a different matter, altogether.
The energy drain attached to a weapon happens whenever it successfully activates. What you're seeing in this video, is the successful activation of FAW, because it is a power that applies to the area around your ship regardless of whether or not there are any targets nearby.
When we get our FAW+ACC code in place, we'll see if we can correct this issue at all. You should only be drained energy if your beam actually fires at a target. Not just if it activates.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Thanks for the clarity
When is this FAW+ACC code coming out? was wondering what was going on with it. It sounded as you guys made progress and then it all went silent....
R.I.P
Honestly it was a better mechanic and needs to return. Who ever was responsible for the change made a mistake bottom line.
Considering the changes to the skill tree since that have increased every ones base EPS transfer rate... the issues they where worried about before with the system being Cryptic to newer players that didn't understand EPS transfer would increase there dps would be a lot less of an issue. Compounding that items like the Borg Weapon 2 piece proc omega amp wouldn't have the issues the devs had seen with it when they changed it.
I guess I am saying is with the current level of skills and items... the old drain mechanic would correct many of the issues we have with weapon disparity.
Wait, what ?
Spray and pray is getting an accuracy buff ? Will the cannon version (CSV) be getting the same buff ?
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Well as long as the properly adjusted skills like beam overload I don't see why it would be a major issue. Of course the cool down I think would have to be as long as its now or we would be turning every beam cruiser into the dreaded turret boat proc machine.
You know if you took SNB out of the picture and kept DHCs there are matches where no one would die either.
This is why Gecko's comments are something I really hope never see the light of day.
Nerfing DHCs are not the answer, I know they feel like terror in the ques to unprepared and unskilled players, but this will not fix the issues with beams, single cannons or DCs.
Mimey has some interesting ideas on Beam Array efficiency issues here, the idea has merit even if the thread quickly devolved with uninformed, negative posts taking control (through no fault of mimey either).
Please take a look.
Faw doesn't currently use acc traits from weapons properly. It is broken... not that I think faw needs to ever come back...
I think faw should just be deleted myself... and replaced.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=576581
Edit: Got a new PC so being its going to take a LONG time to get back in the game I might as well listen to the whole podcast, eat some food, take a vacation, wonder if some biological weapon is going to remove the ridges from all my KDF toons and possibly 100 kdf ships being released before I get this massive download patched lol.
I don't think either should benefit from acc traits as they're aoe effects coupled with rapid fire. Rapid firing anything should have an inverse affect on accuracy.
Any chance I could get a gattling pulsewave with acc for my ground guys ?
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
DHCs fire once per cycle and every shot is at the proper power level.
All other cannons fire twice per cycle and half the shots are at proper power level.
Beams fire four times per cycle and only a quarter of the shots are at proper power level.
The fix is simple. Make weapons remember their power level from the first shot and have it continue to use that power level for all of the shots.
Done, fixed.
Is Gecko even aware that this is the issue? That it really has nothing at all to do with the -10 power or -12 power or anything like that but instead the way the game does it's math? Or to be more precise when it does it's math?
head desk :mad:
HEAD DESK HEAD DESK HEAD DESK:mad::mad:
havam, please wake up. don't lash out without looking at the big picture, be mad about the true cause of the problem.
healing is so strong that DHC spike is the only things can killed basically. nerfing them means things will no longer be killed, that spike that is all that maters wont exist anymore. instead, buffing other weapons so they can actually have an effect is the ONLY answer. sci boats and cruisers would no longer suffer, and healing could be shot through still.
listening now, i'll hear this for my self.
regarding that 14 year old comment, im sure he hates us. several of us have directly insulted him for years, some VERY harshly. we did this because of the imbalanced ships he is responsible for stating, and the introduction of consoles and items that have done terrible damage to balance. being lead designer, he is responsible.
so he calls us 14 year old, whatever. we called him worse. but i'll say this, its continues to be very disturbing to me that a lead like gecko is not a simi competent PVPer. you cant actually know the state of balance unless you actually pvp, the pve does not tell you what you need to know, ney, it misleads you. his opinion on beams, cannons, engines, its plain to see how the game suffers from his lack of actual experience in pvp, so he and many other devs have no point of reference on the actual state of balance.
anyone that would read the hilbert guide, and take a look at my thread, could go from a 0 talent pve'er to a competent pvper that gives me a run for my money. every single time i log on, without fail, a new or familiar thread reader will message me and thank me for the information in the thread, or ask for some individual help. after an hour or so, they have 1 hell of a ship and are well on thier way to at least pug successfully, and will grow in skill and competence from there.
the point is, getting good at pvp is fricking easy, it does not take a life long commitment. key binds, basic skill tree knowledge, knowing what skills effect what, and a good ship with good doffs and a good set of station skills is all you need.
so please gecko, become a pvper. theres all the information you need in my thread to make you one. do it so you can do your job better, so you know the actual state of balance.
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
Ya that would be one way to go... but somehow I would bet Cryptic would mess up a major change that way.
The old system was better where the power was simply drained from the system the moment you fired at all... and was rechareged at eps values. At that point the system works just fine. I still don't really under stand what they where thinking when they changed the system to its current full power return at end of cycle sillyness.
If this is the case your tac is doing something severely wrong
Bring on the KDF beam Battle Cruisers.
One step closer to vannilla.
R.I.P
I tank cruisers for fun, so I'm not playing my freebie escort correctly.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
In response to the power drain of beams:
"You can always invest some skill points in...uh...uh, uh, what is it, Power Insulators? Uh, or uh there's certainly a number of, uh, Nadion Inversion? There's systems built into the game to help you mitigate that..." This is disturbing and explains a lot about STO. I understand the skill tree better than the lead designer... and that is horrifying. I never understood the contempt one person in particular held Geko in (he was hard on a lot of people) but I'm starting to get it.
"There's an awful lot of things that Science Vessels can do that other ships can't. People hate being confused, placated, or tractored, and that's what Science ships excel at." Except that what people hate are passive placate, danube tractors, and AMS. None of which are Science ship exclusive.
There are some very specific points to carry back to Geko.
1. Power drain is regularly sidestepped these days. You could make DHCs drain 20 per shot and it wouldn't matter.
2. The Science Vessel issue, which you say you couldn't see and chalked it up to the "support controller is hard to play" is that you have given all of the unique sci abilities away. That is the frustration you couldn't understand. Other ships can "support/control" and also accomplish another role.
3. Life here in the meta is hard. We are obsessive nerds and will call you out on your mistakes (PI). Think of us as a resource. If you don't want to parse logs you need to be talking to people who do. Let me repeat that: You need to parse logs and correctly interpret them. If you are not, what are you using to come to the conclusion that beam boats aren't suffering? If you are not willing to devote the time to understand what specific skills do, much less steep yourself in meta-game data until you dream about it, then outsource it. We are willing, we do it anyway. If not, you're basically saying that you want less data to use in the decision making process. Consider it an additional data point to go with whatever you are using now. I don't think the researchers' battle cry is "Less Data!"
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=576781
Btw, did you ever figure out how to beat Extend Shields?
...
Wow. Did he seriously say that Power Insulators affect weapon drain? And that Nadion is the best solution? I think the proper response here is this: bleh
He will not buff Beams, but rather nerf Cannons, in particular Dual Heavy Cannons. this is a huge mistake on there part they have no idea they need to play the game
we figure it out but still extends are to powerful. in our test 1 bug shooting on a ship with 2 extends 3 and tss, 85% resist. it took a while to destroy the ship. i wish cryptic would allow only one extend on a ship at any given time. that was with dual heavy cannon. if they nerf it it will make extends the most powerful ability in the game