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Gecko on Beams vs. Cannons

havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
edited March 2013 in PvP Gameplay
Ok so in the UGC 4H interview around 3:26 Gecko shares his wisdom about Beams vs. Cannons.

1) according to Gecko, NI is doing fine, although i doubt he notices the complication of Marion and the uptime of NI and what it means to the Eng class.

2) He will not buff Beams, but rather nerf Cannons, in particular Dual Heavy Cannons. But is scared that all the tac/scorts are going to rage.

Well let them rage, sci boats and cruisers have suffered long enough. So let's share some thoughts on how to nerf Dual Heavy Cannons, and make Duals and Singles more valuable.

DHC are to energy effective, imv. SO simple solution lets increase the drain. Maybe give duals a slight increase in arc.

Would it be a sensible target that only eng class, could run a 4 (5) DHC boat effectively, thanks to their cpt skills?

What are peoples thoughts on this? F@W fixing would be important as well, how about this?
Post edited by havam on
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Comments

  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    First, I'd remove DHC's innate CrtD.

    Next, I'd modify DHC's energy drain to mimic Dual cannons. So that when they fire, they drain the same amount of energy as Dual cannons, and drain it properly.

    Can't really think of anything else..
    You think that your beta test was bad?
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  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited March 2013
    From cryptic's point of view its a money maker to increase DHC power drain ( Respec ) tokens sold to 99% of all TAC drivers with total energy builds like mine.

    It wont affect klingons with plasmonic leach, but may sell the leach to more klingons who dont have it , like mine

    Those who run Aux to battery it wont affect making there ships more valuable and lower the value of ships that cant run aux to battery

    I would rather they buffed beams but i see the economic reasons they will not
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    LOL, that's hilarious.
    I see a nerf that will take MONTHS to rebalance (think mine revamp). If cruiser drivers think this will bring cruisers to equality with escorts they're seriously deluded. The only way to make them equal is to remove escorts completely from the game.

    Stupid cruiser drivers need to grow up and get a ship that was designed to do damage if they want to do damage.
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
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    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jellico1 wrote: »
    From cryptic's point of view its a money maker to increase DHC power drain ( Respec ) tokens sold to 99% of all TAC drivers with total energy builds like mine.

    ...

    I wont be respecing my all energy tacscort, because most of my spike damage is from my DBB anyways. I'm just curious how this will change high end pvp. Will damage be so low that its just shield bashing until everyone gives up? I've always thought they should open the Red Shirt as a pvp test server and invite pvpers for test events where data could be collected. Also, Red Shirt is the best freaking name for a pvp test server, don't you think? I don't think this is the end of the world, but if the volume is turned down on damage they need to also turn the volume down on healing, at least in my opinion.
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Another thing that irked me about Gecko's comments was:

    "I don't think that beamboats have a problem" Well he said that he is too scared to PvP and that he (the head of the systems team mind you) doesn't have the time to go into min-maxing like all the bunch of 14 year olds with too much time that like PvP.

    KK so the insults to the PvP'ers aside, i really wonder what kind of PvP or PvE experience Gecko is basing this on. How is bringing an eng/beamboat (all beam sci or cruiser boat) fine? Does he consider all beams sci boat to be doing ok? I mean BO = CRF, F@W = CSV what boffs skills does he use to such great effect that he thinks these are fine.

    Maybe BO skills would be a better route to balance Beams vs DHC. On the other hand, how about giving cannons arc relative to the ship class, and giving DHC to all cruisers and sci ship. Would suck for the kdf, but maybe that is something.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    All that effort of trying to rebuild the bridges with borticus and Branflakes.... Completely ruined by one dev who doesn't give a **** about pvp.

    Nice job cryptic!
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Well some devs are less intelligent then others... but I won't go on about anything like that, its just not nice. :)

    Honestly DHC power drain increases won't change anything. lol

    Frankly DC do JUST as much dmg as DHC these days.

    Giving everyone on proc +1000 energy resists coupled with instant +10 weapon power boosts (which means the weapon that procs it replenishes its own drain and makes the next volley free) Means that really DC end up doing just as much dmg with twice the procs. lol

    If they feel there is issues with DHC and they need to be nerfed instead of correctingthe fact that a ship with beams can't penetrate shields on someone with both tier 4 rep shield passives, and a copy of EPTS 1... shows just how completely out of touch with the realities of the game engine some of the developers really are. lol
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  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    And btw, I wonder how many of us are those "14 years old pvpers". As I customer, I feel that that was over the top statement and rather insulting. I also do not say, that he is a clueless old TRIBBLE, that has lost his mind and does not know what he is talking about. It just really shows how he despises the pvp community...but I guess the feeling is mutual.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    I think Gecko deserves to be chained to a chair and forced to fly his beloved beam Galaxy-R for eternity and repeat the phrase "evething is fine, there is no problem".

    Alternative solution: Bort for lead designer
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    maicake716 wrote: »
    All that effort of trying to rebuild the bridges with borticus and Branflakes.... Completely ruined by one dev who doesn't give a **** about pvp.

    Nice job cryptic!
    Well some devs are less intelligent then others... but I won't go on about anything like that, its just not nice. :)

    Honestly DHC power drain increases won't change anything. lol

    Frankly DC do JUST as much dmg as DHC these days.

    Giving everyone on proc +1000 energy resists coupled with instant +10 weapon power boosts (which means the weapon that procs it replenishes its own drain and makes the next volley free) Means that really DC end up doing just as much dmg with twice the procs. lol

    If they feel there is issues with DHC and they need to be nerfed instead of correctingthe fact that a ship with beams can't penetrate shields on someone with both tier 4 rep shield passives, and a copy of EPTS 1... shows just how completely out of touch with the realities of the game engine some of the developers really are. lol
    Yup agreed.

    So who wants to start a new fleet for 14year old uber geeks.
    Maybe we can have a class trip to cryptic HQ: Excel from teenagers for old farts with computer degrees. :)
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    And btw, I wonder how many of us are those "14 years old pvpers". As I customer, I feel that that was over the top statement and rather insulting. I also do not say, that he is a clueless old TRIBBLE, that has lost his mind and does not know what he is talking about. It just really shows how he despises the pvp community...but I guess the feeling is mutual.

    Yeah your not alone, in feeling insulted. So yes let the mods come in and remind us to play nice. I have met many pvp'ers in this game. 14 year olds.... not so much.
  • capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    havam wrote: »
    Another thing that irked me about Gecko's comments was:

    "I don't think that beamboats have a problem" Well he said that he is too scared to PvP and that he (the head of the systems team mind you) doesn't have the time to go into min-maxing like all the bunch of 14 year olds with too much time that like PvP.

    KK so the insults to the PvP'ers aside, i really wonder what kind of PvP or PvE experience Gecko is basing this on. How is bringing an eng/beamboat (all beam sci or cruiser boat) fine? Does he consider all beams sci boat to be doing ok? I mean BO = CRF, F@W = CSV what boffs skills does he use to such great effect that he thinks these are fine.

    Maybe BO skills would be a better route to balance Beams vs DHC. On the other hand, how about giving cannons arc relative to the ship class, and giving DHC to all cruisers and sci ship. Would suck for the kdf, but maybe that is something.

    He doesn't have time to go into min-maxing? Heck, I don't bother with it either, and I can still enjoy PvP. Still, min-maxing is how you find out what a power or weapon can really do... and STO's systems guy doesn't have time for it? Nothing is going to get fixed this way. :(

    Well, anyway.

    You might be right about the BO skills, but that would benefit cruisers way more than science ships (since EptW is the most basic means of recovering from BO's energy drain, short of batteries). Plus, as they are now, most cruisers and science ships don't get access to all tiers of the BO power; and their low number of tac slots doesn't make equipping it easy (especially since Tac Team is a must have these days).

    I dunno, maybe the folks who argue for the addition of a 'Heavy Beam Array' are onto something; it could possibly bypass the whole issue of what do do about regular ones.
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    capnmanx wrote: »
    He doesn't have time to go into min-maxing? Heck, I don't bother with it either, and I can still enjoy PvP. Still, min-maxing is how you find out what a power or weapon can really do... and STO's systems guy doesn't have time for it? Nothing is going to get fixed this way. :(

    Well, anyway.

    You might be right about the BO skills, but that would benefit cruisers way more than science ships (since EptW is the most basic means of recovering from BO's energy drain, short of batteries). Plus, as they are now, most cruisers and science ships don't get access to all tiers of the BO power; and their low number of tac slots doesn't make equipping it easy (especially since Tac Team is a must have these days).

    I dunno, maybe the folks who argue for the addition of a 'Heavy Beam Array' are onto something; it could possibly bypass the whole issue of what do do about regular ones.

    BO2 on single beam array, to save the beam boat?? "fine" dunno. I don't mean to discredit BO, i mjust curious if he really thinks that this is were it should be at, and that all the 14year old whinners, are not smart enough to slot it.

    TL;DR ijdgi
  • mrgrocer56mrgrocer56 Member Posts: 370 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    27 years ago I was 14......

    Another "Stepping on Your Own Crank" moment.

    As has been stated, all the fence mending and bridge building undone by one guy firing from the hip. I guess us "14 year old min-maxers" know where we stand. Disappointing to say the least.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The game is supposed to appeal to the Sims in Space crowd, not to adrenaline junkies. The combat is dumbed down to a really low level because that's what they want. There's no aiming, no trigger to pull, just select and click.

    I agree with the sentiment, that they could at least try to make that low-functionality work well. Its not like they have set the bar high and have to balance out all the variables of a high-functionality combat model. Its kind of insulting that they say, we dumb it down to suit our market, you're too dumb to notice how bad it is.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I don't know but I know in the line of work I am in... if I called my employers customers 14 year olds with to much time on there hands in a public interview.

    I'd likely be looking for a new employer. Really if he isn't slapped on the fingers at least and barred from ever speaking in public again... I would say its a massive failing on his superiors ability to lead. :)

    I know mods its a negative sort of post.... sorry.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The game is supposed to appeal to the Sims in Space crowd, not to adrenaline junkies. The combat is dumbed down to a really low level because that's what they want. There's no aiming, no trigger to pull, just select and click.

    I agree with the sentiment, that they could at least try to make that low-functionality work well. Its not like they have set the bar high and have to balance out all the variables of a high-functionality combat model. Its kind of insulting that they say, we dumb it down to suit our market, you're too dumb to notice how bad it is.

    Sim ? Where ?
    It's dumbed down to appeal to their target market- 14 YO's.
    Perhaps they're telling me that I've outgrown trek, Thanks Gecko !
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    lordmalak1 wrote: »
    Sim ? Where ?
    It's dumbed down to appeal to their target market- 14 YO's.
    Perhaps they're telling me that I've outgrown trek, Thanks Gecko !

    It's not the first time he's insulted the customers.
    It happens pretty much every time those annoying customers (you know the people who were so dumb they found a certain exploit he was too intelligent to find) tell him something is not right.
  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited March 2013
    I have no idea how much of a power drain is planned , perhaps even geko doesnt know yet himself, but historically they over do fixes/nerf's

    I see the power requirement going from 6 to 9 if only the DHC is effected making it drain 18 power in 2 sec so its only still slightly better than the DC's 20 every 2 seconds

    If something like this is done Healing across the board needs to be lowered about 35% , Hull heals and shield heals and some equipment has very high healing buffs built in it that will have to be lowered

    This wont really effect the STF's/ PvE this aspect of the game its way to easy now and our escorts make PvE a joke

    I think this will hurt Fed players the most because only a few escorts can use Aux to bat

    Klingons have the plasmonic leach to cover there power usage so it only effects 10 bucks out of our pockets

    It would in effect cancel the 5th Tac console , I dont think its the best way to to balence things , but slowing the power creep in ships is needed and torpedos need to be more of a worthwhile choice
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
  • mrgrocer56mrgrocer56 Member Posts: 370 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Since that is what he thinks of us, maybe I'll adjust my spending on this game to that of an average 14 year old without access to Mummy or Daddy's credit card. Probably a good idea anyways. One more "whale" going on a diet.
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    misterde3 wrote: »
    It's not the first time he's insulted the customers.
    It happens pretty much every time those annoying customers (you know the people who were so dumb they found a certain exploit he was too intelligent to find) tell him something is not right.

    I'm convinced that 'some' think the only customers that exist are fed players.
    ;)
    ...But I am interested to try a beamscort with all those low-level tac beam buffs that never get used, should be interesting since I'll have alot of excess power as it is, and very good maneuverability.
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I think that everyone is making too much of this.

    Better to convince Borticuscryptic on the "Why" and let him convince Geko or the systems team. Well at least less flaming.
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Heavy beams are already in. Derp, have you guys heard of these things called dual beam banks?

    As for the cannon nerf rage..... oh, he is right.

    If Cryptic nerfs cannons instead of improving SCI abilities or ENG healings, then yeah rage needs to be done.

    And why so? Because PVPers are a small minority in this game!

    And people who play PVE like myself will do their silly forum rage if our shiny stuff is taken down just because a very few select people dislike it.

    Cryptic should do what the majority of its customers want. Now I know PWE wants PVP in this game, but still I think its a waste of resources better used elsewhere.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • voxlagindvoxlagind Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    This post reeks of troll.

    Investing any sort of interest in a "I heard that he said" or "I heard that she said" style argument is seems pointless.
  • edna#7310 edna Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Not even a month ago they released a 5 forward weapons ship which can use 5 DHC and now they want to make those 5 DHC be impossible to use...:rolleyes: .This is either a 1st of april fool joke or someone is trolling.
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    voxlagind wrote: »
    This post reeks of troll.

    Investing any sort of interest in a "I heard that he said" or "I heard that she said" style argument is seems pointless.

    It's in a podcast...you know those things that make sound...of course people have "heard" it.:confused:
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Unless somethings changed, and these guys don't seem to think so.

    http://deepspacealliance.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/game-mechanics-revealed-dual-cannons-vs.html

    And DHC's are fine in and of themselves. The underlying mechanics sorta suck.

    Cheers!
  • cidstormcidstorm Member Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    14 was a long time ago, wth cryptic?

    This might be cool if it only ends up hurting 4 or 5 dhc builds.
  • darkfader1988darkfader1988 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    DHC really dont need nerf, beams simply need buff.

    If DHC's were so OP then why does it take 30mins to 1 hour to finish a 5v5 premade match with 2 good premades...

    There is enough resist/healing going on to make other abilities even more favorable then a full DHC in some occasions. Double overload tap, etc.
    MT - Sad Pandas
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