The Romulan plasma torpedo needs a balance check

diogene0

I've been playing with the Romulan torpedo for a while, and it's definitely an improvement over other torpedoes for many reasons. In terms of DPS, it might be really too much though.

First off, i've been using it on two characters with various various skill points in torpedoes, but on no char without any torp skill.

So, the mechanics of this torpedo that may cause some imbalance:

- When you use torpedo spread, it will fire an impressive number of torps. When one of the target is destroyed, none of the torp is wasted, it will be heading towards a new target. So, when you have one battleship with 3 frigates, if frigates are destroyed with scatter volley, then the battleship will likely get blown up in a matter of seconds, thanks to the 20 torps heading to it.

- When you use this torpedo and 3 projectile weapon officers, it's a continous flow of torpedoes. Seriously, it never ends and your ship won't stop making torps. No NPC can whistand such an amount of kinetic damage and plasma burns. It allowed me to kill a no win scenario dreadnought with my sci char on a mobius in less than 30 seconds. And i can destroy an elite cube in less than 15 seconds with my kdf tac char and a torp HY III with most of my buffs activated.

If you combine the two methods, it will likely make any space fleet action, where you have a lot of NPCs, a joke anyone can complete well ahead of time. I've been getting timers i've never had before with such tricks. And of course, when there's a gravity well then no spawn can resist more than a few seconds, whatever NPCs you have in it.

Although it's been fun for some time, I really think this torpedo + 3 torp doffs is mandatory for PvE now. It's just... Too much. While I could use it for myself and be happy with that, I think this is the kind of thing that shouldn't be happening since pathetic NPCs get even more pathetic with that.

I'll try to provide some data soon to prove my point.

ddesjardins

First, most if not all of the BO's do not apply to the Romulan torpedo. It even says it in the bo's details. This also seems to apply to the OMEGA torpedo as well.

Second, unless the target is stationary and shield-less, they are ineffective. Yes they can hurt shields, but not as effectively as other torpedoes.

Having played with both sets extensively on 3 toons, there are good and bad aspects to the torpedoes, but I don't believe they are overwhelming or OP. The set bonuses are excellent, and overall they are great siege weapons. However for PvP and PvE ship to ship, the numbers they claim to do do no reflect real world usage.

In general:

Good:

1. They re-target if the primary is destroyed.
2. Once locked onto a target, you no longer have to maintain the arc to continue firing from the same volley. Great for Cruisers doing broadsides.
3. Great kinetic damage on shield-less targets.
4. AWESOME damage against stationary targets without shields.
5. Nice 'sticky' hull damage.
6. Romulan: HY and HY with the Reman speed boost is acceptable.
7. Omega: TS excellent AOE attack, great against everything. HY Nasty.

Bad:

1. There is no control on re-targeting. Can be problematic in STF's where timing is important.
2. Against a moving target: Slow. So slow that most never reach their targets before the target(s) are destroyed. A comparison of the same tank, using Hyper-plasma or Quantums torpedoes across 10 ISE STF's show that the Quantums hit their targets 40% more than plasma torpedoes do. This is due to other weapons superseding the plasma torps arrival.
3. Terrible shield damage.
4. Romulan: TS practically useless, again due to speed. Looks great, but very iffy damage due to shield issues.

Summary: I use the Romulan Torp exclusively in HY mode only with the Reman speed boost, and for the 'plasma flux' bonus it generates for the set (experimental array lance damage).

OMEGA is used only as a rear firing mob dispersal, or HY. I have recently dropped it for annother plasma array as I only use the 2nd passive from the OMEGA set.

My Two Bits

Admiral Thrax

darkjeff

I was right about to say that you obviously didn't run a parser through it. My repeated tests show it to not be useful (in PvE/STFs).

I suppose it's different with you in a Mobius, but I'm in a JHEC and the three DHCs far, far out damage the Rom Hyper-Plasma torp.

My torps almost never go off on ships, only Negh'vars survive long enough for the torps to hit. Works fine on cubes and Gateways. Torp Spread is also annoying, since you only get 2 per ship, and again my CSV destroys entire groups before the torpedoes even fire, so I end up with 2 on the one survivor, costing myself a torpedo.

In fact, just parsing against the starting tac cube in KSE (which obviously should survive our cannons, and will generally have its shields down while we blast at it) the Hyper-Plasma torps still do less DPS than each individual DHC. (Using AB3, HY3, and CSV1. Yes, High Yield 3, on a single stationary target stripped of its shields, still doesn't do as much as my plasma DHCs with CSV1.)

...also it sets me on fire when the Raptor I'm shooting at flies over me. :P

If I wasn't using it for the 2-piece plasma damage boost, I wouldn't be using it at all.

ddesjardins

darkjeff wrote: »

I was right about to say that you obviously didn't run a parser through it. My repeated tests show it to not be useful (in PvE/STFs).

I suppose it's different with you in a Mobius, but I'm in a JHEC and the three DHCs far, far out damage the Rom Hyper-Plasma torp.

^ Second this.

diogene0

I'm not really talking about STFs, just about two situations, where you have a lot of NPCs. This is why I mention the no win scenario specifically. And battleships+ level NPCs, where the torp is clearly superior to any torp. If it hits shields then you might have a problem with your build, because no NPC should have shields when the romulan torp reaches mobs.

Of course, having a gravity well (on a mobius, you can do that and don't need more heal anyway) will help a lot but it's not mandatory. I've just had results I shouldn't be allowed to have against targets I know well. My previous records were 9.30' left on an infected space elite, and 9.20 minutes left on cure space elite. Both records have been beaten since I'm using this build with heavy torps or spread + 3 projectile weapon officers, with teammates i know well. Of course it's even quicker if everyone uses that. No NPC can withsand that because it's very likely there's no more shields in the first 15 seconds, no matter what the NPC is, even an elite dreadnought.

I bet you've been thinking i've not used a parser because you've not been using 3 PWO doffs.

Again you will notice how insane it is in a no win scenario situation and with battleships/dreads/boss fights, just because there are many NPCs at the same time there and you can make a good use of a romulan plasma torpedo spread II or III, or just because the big NPCs are just brainless and powerless huge stacks of HP.

The only NPCs having counters are gorn with aceton assimilator, and to some extent, the queen in hive onslaught, even though her counter is, to say the least rather episodic. All other NPCs will be sent to oblivion in record times if you're using the torp right.

marc8219

I notice the same results too when in my Hoh'sus or B'rel using 3 purple doffs. Just endless romulan torp spam, cubes on elite die in 10-20 seconds. The Romulan torps sometimes set off the cubes heavy plasma torps near it too, causing him to instantly pop even faster when this happens without having to risk ramming the torp yourself to do this. I still can do this pretty fast with quantums though, so while it is an improvement in pve, I am not sure if I would call it overpowered.

majortiraomega

In my opinion, the Romulan and Omega torpedoes make it possible for science vessels and cruisers to put out decent damage to shielded targets due the shield piercing DoT. Quantums are still the best projectile weapon for escorts due the fact that an escort shreds shields. I would hardly call the torpedoes overpowered due to the huge number of counters and the tiny damage per torp. (Counters include: Photonic Shockwave, Gravity Well, Tykens rift, Tractor Beam Repulsors, Torpedo Spread, Beam Fire at Will, Cannon Scatter Volley, Point Defense Consoles, outrunning the slow torps, etc.) And as for the endless stream of torpedoes, that's due to the fact that it takes about 3 seconds to complete a fire cycle. Even with just one projectile weapon officer equip your cooldown will only be about 1 second.

legendarylycan

let's not be giving cryptic any more ideas for things to neuter into uselessness, please....for how much it costs and how long it takes to unlock, it should be strong

darkjeff

diogene0 wrote: »

I bet you've been thinking i've not used a parser because you've not been using 3 PWO doffs.

No, I have. I've got 4 VRs from DOffing, and I did try it (because I was going with Plasma).

On an escort layout (3 DHCs + Torps) it does not do as well. The DHCs will destroy most targets before the torps get to them. Against 3 Negh'vars in CSE, the Rom torps only land once (3 torps on one target) before they die from DHCs with CSV1 + APB3.

The difference again is the ship. You're talking about a Sci torp boat, I'm saying that on a standard escort layout DHC/Torp layout it's strictly inferior to other torpedoes.

Heck, even two quantum torps with the 3 DOffs will give you a constant stream of better torpedoes that don't get shot down and won't blow up from your first victim's warp core beach.

woodwhity

darkjeff wrote: »

The difference again is the ship. You're talking about a Sci torp boat, I'm saying that on a standard escort layout DHC/Torp layout it's strictly inferior to other torpedoes.

Cruisers do better wothout them to. But its basically a Sci-thing. So nerfing the torpedo -what I dont think will happen- is pretty much the same as nerfing sci^^

diogene0

darkjeff wrote: »

Heck, even two quantum torps with the 3 DOffs will give you a constant stream of better torpedoes that don't get shot down and won't blow up from your first victim's warp core beach.

I underlined the issue in your post. I'm talking about one romulan torpedo. It's really more effective than a quantum torp in terms of DPS, in the situations I mentionned (a lot of NPCs/ battleship+ NPCs).

I've been getting better results with a romulan torp on my tac/krenn destroyer or with my sci/mobius. The quantum torp is fine but this one clearly out-dps it. Of course, there are many counters players can use, and this is why i didn't post it in the PvP subforums, but most NPCs have almost no counters to that. Except the gorn, but i've told it earlier.

tpalelena

shadowfang240 wrote: »

let's not be giving cryptic any more ideas for things to neuter into uselessness, please....for how much it costs and how long it takes to unlock, it should be strong

Agreed.

So OP you want to nerf a very high end , very hard to get, very expensive item because it does well in one situation.

Am I the only one who thinks that an item that takes so much effort and time and resources to unlock should be worth the effort?

notapwefan

if you find it over powered then don't use it at all.
But seriously, many have spend dil and romulan marks to get them so nerfing them now will be...sad

khayuung

I'm all for responsible nerfing for pvp balance, but nerfing stuff for pve mobs to stand a chance is getting on towards ridiculousness...

tpalelena

khayuung wrote: »

I'm all for responsible nerfing for pvp balance, but nerfing stuff for pve mobs to stand a chance is getting on towards ridiculousness...

Agreed sir.
Especially stuff that is end game content that you need to work hard for a month or so to get.

woodwhity

diogene0 wrote: »

I underlined the issue in your post. I'm talking about one romulan torpedo. It's really more effective than a quantum torp in terms of DPS, in the situations I mentionned (a lot of NPCs/ battleship+ NPCs).

I've been getting better results with a romulan torp on my tac/krenn destroyer or with my sci/mobius. The quantum torp is fine but this one clearly out-dps it. Of course, there are many counters players can use, and this is why i didn't post it in the PvP subforums, but most NPCs have almost no counters to that. Except the gorn, but i've told it earlier.

You dont use quantum to make dps. For that you use photons. And they can be on par with one Hyper-Plasma with one launcher alone.

uss917019

Well I don't have that torpedo yet but I know all its power and all I can see from others players is that they shoot that and they don't care.

stirling191

On targets that you can land multiple stacks on, yes they're a bit crazy. But there are very few times when that will actually occur.

Think of it as a siege torpedo: great against big, slow and immobile targets, but against everything else...not so much.

darkjeff

diogene0 wrote: »

most NPCs have almost no counters to that.

NPCs are expendable, they tend to counter my torp swarm with Warp Core breaches. :P

tpalelena wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks that an item that takes so much effort and time and resources to unlock should be worth the effort?

You won't be happy with the Omega torp launcher.

oldschooldork

stirling191 wrote: »

Think of it as a siege torpedo: great against big, slow and immobile targets, but against everything else...not so much.

I have to agree with this, having used the Romulan torps extensively for a while now on both my MVAE and Chell Grett Warship, alongside DHC's. But there is another reason I use them that has not been touched on here...they are target-able. My convoluted and slightly insane form of logic tells me that if I let a string of these off the chain then the enemy will target them and not me. And believe it or not it works most of the time. A lot of people will say that target-able torpedoes are about as useful as teats on a nun, but I've found them very useful as a distraction.

Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

maltheist

I had recently been asking other players which they prefer, Romulan or Omega torps, and why. I mostly received positive feedback for the Romulan torps, and negative about Omega torps. People griped that the Omega's were "bugged", and praised the Romulan's for damage and spam.

I earned both torps shortly after the rep system started. I used both for a short period of time, but quickly realized that the Romulan torps were SO SLOW that they rarely ever had the chance to even hit my target before it was destroyed, let alone timing it for when the shields were down. No matter how much damage you do, not matter how fast shields go down, shields still regenerate every few seconds, and if even a sliver of shields are up when your torp hits it still suffers.

I chose to use the Omega's and have not noticed any issues with them. TS3 with Omega torps is awesome for finishing off a mob that has just been stripped of shields by CSV, and they actually make it to the targets in time to do something. THY1 creates a pretty scary Plasma Energy Bolt for use against big targets. Sure, that is slow and targetable, like the Rom torps, but it hits really hard when it connects. I have had a THY1 Omega Torp hit for over 120k damage against a Unimatrix. I can't say that I have ever noticed the glitching that others complain about, because few things survive long enough for me to use all 5 charges and have to wait for a reload.

In my opinion . . .
Romulan Torps are useless for anything other than destroying stationary targets with high HP, like transformers or gates.
Omega Torps are always useful, and add enough spike damage potential to finish off either mobs or bosses.

tpalelena

I usually have both in front.
I spam the romulan plasma, and use the Omega for Energy bolts mostly.
This requires you to be at least 5kms or closer to your target if its small, but damn this can do great single damage in an stf.

Now two torpedoes front? Yeah. I found out that 3 turrets and 2 DHCs do strip shields good enough, even on elite for the torpedoes to quickly become viable.

marshalericdavid

I like Omega Torps more because they do better at helping me kill groups with Torpedo Spread because they reach their target faster. The Omega torps do have problems that they don't always fire correctly.

Romulan torps also have some problems that sometimes they just sit in space even with enemies close to them. I also have sniped gates with the Romulan torps from 9.5+ and they don't always reach the gate and do damage. They fizzle out just before reaching the gate sometimes. It could be the angle I snipe the gate at which is from the sides because I notice that they like to try to hit the top middle section of the gate and when attacking from the side they have to travel more.

thepantsparty

I see better damage out of the Romulan launcher than I did out of an advanced fleet photon torpedo, in addition to it buffing the plasma damage that all of my energy weapons do.

If your targets are dying before the torpedoes get there, maybe try flying closer?

doffingcomrade

You used a Photon. That's a recipe for suck right there. A tasteful individual would be spamming Quantum.

questerius

doffingcomrade wrote: »

You used a Photon. That's a recipe for suck right there. A tasteful individual would be spamming Quantum.

Both have their uses actually.

mustafatennick

So the rommie torp is now op because cubes die in seconds, they should anyway their a computer your a human surely you can build something to take them down quick without it being op

I normally watch out for OP threads and stop using items if I see truth in them but come on

These torps are all destructable do rediculous damage against shields set you on fire if you get too close and take up high level tac slot and 2 Boff seatings to make them do any sort of high base damage high ROF

I've seen some good damage dealt with them in stfs which is why I bought one but tbh I think it's a big waste of time and resources better off with a quantum

Holy cow

lordkratos1974

are you fking serious? dont you think we get enough from Cryptics Nerf Hammer? the game is already geared towards DPS Escorts, and you want to Nerf one of the good weapons in this game? Kick Rocks, go try to find ya another game to nerf. Got enough of your type of people in here already.

mojobap

[

Heck, even two quantum torps with the 3 DOffs will give you a constant stream of better torpedoes that don't get shot down and won't blow up from your first victim's warp core beach.[/QUOTE]

Well im running a HEC with 2 Quantum Torps and with 3 Blue DOFFS and no i dont stream torpedoes, and a lot of peoplpe are saying that you can shred a target with 3 DHC Which i tried using MKII Very Rare Antiproton DHC and yet i dont seem to be able to shred spheres , and yess all my skill are placed correctly....

crappyturbo

I would like to know how people can get 3 projectile weapons doff's active in space because every time I try I get told that I can not do that.

neptuno82

i recently started playing again and unlocked both around the same time, i made the omega, noticed how lackluster if felt compared to mk xii quantum and tried to the Rom Hyp.

Omega's recharge after specials is silly since the normals are just light damage anyway. biggest reason i felt they weren't worth keeping the set bonus, which is really they're only advantage (if you don't have heavy fleet stacked stuff yet) compared to regular torpedoes that just shoot. the rom set bonuses... considering the 2 set for more dots, but this seems more of a beam boat kind of set, so that puts the hyper plasma as a set-less item for me.

i find it to be better burst than quatum during a charge on the target as i can out run the first set and fire a 2nd set that will all hit together placing 6 plasma dots on them too vs holding off till the 2nd set for fast torpedoes as the first wave would hit shields.

on a new toon building up a end game ship for the first time, elite cubes are much more doable for me with the romulan plasma than other options. if feels like a solid part of my growing kit.

it would be crazy to assume you should have one layout of items/boff/doff for every encounter. you should have the rapid firing items for rapidly approaching enemies and the big hit items for big health enemies.
and if you overgear the encounter, don't nerf the equipment the hard grind gets you... ask for newer and harder encounters!