Hive Onslaught Instant Kill?

magisterdusk

So I started playing again recently and I've been easing my way back into Omega missions. The question I have is do the Borg have an instant kill aside from the Plasma Bolt? The reason I ask is that I have, on occasion, died seemingly at random while on this mission. I'll be cruising along, shields usually in the blue, then suddenly I'm told I need to respawn. The really odd part is that it's never been while the game is laggy, which made me wonder if there's another thing that can do it. Is there an out of bounds area, perhaps? I'm curious, because it happened to me at least 5 times, making me wonder if it's a gameplay feature rather than a bug.

twam

As far as I'm aware, there's 3 possibilities for that:

1) Invisible high yield torpedoes. An issue that the devs just can't seem to get rid of completely, though it seems to be much, much better than it was.

2) Regular torpedo spread. These little borg torps aren't easily spotted, but hit for much more per torp than most of our torps could do.

3) Borg energy weapons - Sometimes these crit/hit for some insane amounts, out of the blue. I'm not sure if it's a cannon or a beam array, but gates in particular seem to one-shot my weaker-hulled vessels (read B'rel). I image some other capital borg units can do it.

smokeybacon90

In case you didn't realise, the Queen also has a 5km AoE instakill attack. Watch for her shield UI flashing, then hit evasive and get distant.

dareau

This the space one?

The Unimatrixes have a phaser lance that OHK's...

Queen has the aceton field of death...

Then there's the cubes with the high damage of doom, etc. etc.

jam3s1701

They have buffed the HELL outta the Borg recently Elites are almost a major headache to play now....

voporak

In addition to what twan said, I once exploded out of nowhere a few seconds after I destroyed a gate in KASE.

legendarylycan

voporak wrote: »

In addition to what twan said, I once exploded out of nowhere a few seconds after I destroyed a gate in KASE.

bit of an obvious question here, but...are you sure you didn't just get caught in the gate's explosion?

gwassalor

I too have encountered few instakills without no apparent reason. I guess it must be the invisible torps :-)

woodwhity

voporak wrote: »

In addition to what twan said, I once exploded out of nowhere a few seconds after I destroyed a gate in KASE.

Normal torpedo was already on its way.

khayuung

Oh yeah that funky torpedo. Many times when I drop to 30% hull from full shields and hull, I'd turn, hit all my speed buffs and run for it, yet after I reach 23km out and start to turn then...

33,000

csgtmyork

Those instant crits/kills can take out some of the tankiest ships in the game. I was flying my Recluse (with my engi char) buffed with polarized hull, hazard emitters, aux sif, and tac team and I still got ROFLPWNED by a gate (Or maybe it was that tac cube that someone annoyed. I couldn't tell.) Sure, it wasn't a one hit KO, but it might as well have been.

Cause you know... Borg crit hits always travel in pairs. If by some miracle you survive the first one, the second one will stomp on your face.

nicha0

HOSE has a few instakills, many are avoidable but the unimatrix and queen high yield and torp spreads are pretty much always one hit kills unless you are built tough. The unimatrix can throw them out ocassionally but the queen sometimes as often as 15s..

ursusmorologus

The Heavy Plasma Torpedo that they use seems to do as much damage as that mega Energy Bolt. They also have some kind of random crit ability it seems--I have been 20k from the fight and killed with 30k damage for no reason.

legendarylycan

ursusmorologus wrote: »

They also have some kind of random crit ability it seems--I have been 20k from the fight and killed with 30k damage for no reason.

if it's the fight with the unimatrix ships, they fire huge lances at anyone who doesn't stay close to the queen

if it's the fight with the tactical cubes, you probably just got an unlucky torpedo hit

uss917019

What I have notice is that when you get out of range of the enemie and you shot it does no damage at all but when the Borg shoots and when they pass the range (10km) they continue at you and come invisible and destroy you

oneandonlyrecce

uss917019 wrote: »

What I have notice is that when you get out of range of the enemie and you shot it does no damage at all but when the Borg shoots and when they pass the range (10km) they continue at you and come invisible and destroy you

The "Hit / Miss" is calculated at the time of firing. If you move outside of 10km after the shot happened, you will still be hit. I have seen team mates being chased by plama torpedo spread when they try to use EM to escape and are changing direction sharply.

Energy weapons damamge varies over distance. But is the distance at the time of firing or distance the shot has travelled. I'm guessing it's at time of firing. So if you're using EM of RS to escape from a close distance, you will still be hit hard. And as RS drains your shield power it will punch straight through whatever shield you have left. Very different from you shooting at exterme range.

I also have a feeling that the shield facing being struck is also fixed at time of firing, but I need to test / investigate this more. I noticed this last night when I was taking heavy plasma canon damage from the gate. I used EM to turn sharply and saw the shot curve around my ship to hit a shield facing that was not directly between me and the gate anymore.

Not sure about shots becoming invisible after a certain distance. It may the case and something I can test. It would make sense that is the case. The animation and combat calculation system seem to have a loose association rather than a tight one. But that is hardly surprising.

legendarylycan

oneandonlyrecce wrote: »

I also have a feeling that the shield facing being struck is also fixed at time of firing, but I need to test / investigate this more. I noticed this last night when I was taking heavy plasma canon damage from the gate. I used EM to turn sharply and saw the shot curve around my ship to hit a shield facing that was not directly between me and the gate anymore.

this might be true for cannons, but it definitely isn't true for beams or torpedos, because i've seen enemy ships presenting a fresh shield facing halfway through a beam volley and that facing take damage

same with torpedos; you fire one at a downed facing and the ship turns to present a different facing while the torpedo is still in flight, the torpedo hits that facing (and you basically waste a torpedo, since they do almost no damage to shields)

ashkrik23

shadowfang240 wrote: »

bit of an obvious question here, but...are you sure you didn't just get caught in the gate's explosion?

If they launch some invisible torpedo it can still hit you.

borticuscryptic

twam wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, there's 3 possibilities for that:

1) Invisible high yield torpedoes. An issue that the devs just can't seem to get rid of completely, though it seems to be much, much better than it was.

The "invisible" torpedoes are never High Yield. High Yield torpedo FX are on the Costume-draw budget, while standard Torpedo FX are on the FX budget. Guess which one caps out first? In fact, I've been led to believe that it's nearly impossible to cap out the Costume-draw budget.

Anyway, invisible NON-High Yield Torpedoes are a bane to us as Designers, as well. And we're working to reduce their frequency, and potency. We're currently working on a change that should have a noticable impact on the Borg's ability to one-shot (or come close).

That said, high Kinetic resistance is always, always, always a good idea. If you have an ability that increases it, you should be running it as frequently as possible when fighting the Borg.

twam wrote: »

2) Regular torpedo spread. These little borg torps aren't easily spotted, but hit for much more per torp than most of our torps could do.

This ability certainly suffers from FX-draw limitations, and can sometimes be very difficult to see in the midst of combat, possibly even invisible. We're recently been going through our higher-rank ships (like Borg Cubes, Tac Cubes, Transwarp Gates, etc) and reducing their Spread ranks from 3 down to 2 or 1 to reduce the raw damage and number of projectiles.

twam wrote: »

3) Borg energy weapons - Sometimes these crit/hit for some insane amounts, out of the blue. I'm not sure if it's a cannon or a beam array, but gates in particular seem to one-shot my weaker-hulled vessels (read B'rel). I image some other capital borg units can do it.

Off the top of my head, the only Energy weapons that should be capable of dealing massive damage in a single hit are those used by the Unimatrix Ships on Into The Hive. They have a power mechanic that is meant to keep players engaging both of them simultaneously - if you move out of range of either of them, they will Lance you which can frequently be a one-hit-kill. So just stay between them, and they can't use that ability.

The Queen and the Transwarp Gate (in Infected) are also capable of hitting very hard, but they shouldn't be reaching one-shot capacity. If anyone experiences this, please post a screenshot of your combat log.

oneandonlyrecce

borticuscryptic wrote: »

The "invisible" torpedoes are never High Yield. High Yield torpedo FX are on the Costume-draw budget, while standard Torpedo FX are on the FX budget. Guess which one caps out first? In fact, I've been led to believe that it's nearly impossible to cap out the Costume-draw budget.

Are you aware that's it's possible to make the 3 Plasma Torps from the Romulan plasma torpedo launcher "disappear"? It happens at certain viewing angles, but bascially when they are overlapping.

I haven't tried it when the screen isn't busy but have definately had it during ISE.

stirling191

borticuscryptic wrote: »

Anyway, invisible NON-High Yield Torpedoes are a bane to us as Designers, as well. And we're working to reduce their frequency, and potency. We're currently working on a change that should have a noticable impact on the Borg's ability to one-shot (or come close).

Just to be clear, are we talking strictly a fix for the VFX issue, or the issue that ESTF plain-jane plasma torpedoes hit for absurd amounts? Both?

ursusmorologus

shadowfang240 wrote: »

if it's the fight with the unimatrix ships, they fire huge lances at anyone who doesn't stay close to the queen

if it's the fight with the tactical cubes, you probably just got an unlucky torpedo hit

I mostly fight in Cure and mostly get it while fighting the cubes, but I see it from the Borg Bird of Prey and Borg Warships too. They launch a Heavy Plasma torp it will kill you. Mostly I gtfo, sometimes I move 20k away and still die, but not from the torpedo that I left in the dust its from something else.

Also whoever said hit is calculated on fire, you can cloak to evade the energy bolt, so that's wrong. The energy bolt will come up to you and kind of wander around lost, will not hit.

kagasensei

I've miracously exploded right after respawning and over 20km from the nearest enemy at least twice by now in Hive Onslaught. Nothing to see, nothing to hear. I was utterly alone where I was. I certainly had no aggro (few seconds after spawning).

legendarylycan

kagasensei wrote: »

I've miracously exploded right after respawning and over 20km from the nearest enemy at least twice by now in Hive Onslaught. Nothing to see, nothing to hear. I was utterly alone where I was. I certainly had no aggro (few seconds after spawning).

maybe the borg are laying cloaked high-yield mines :P

nicha0

Isn't the best way to stop the invisible torpedos from one hitting you just to eliminate their criticals? Seems easy enough.

The spreads though are just crazy

diogene0

borticuscryptic wrote: »

The "invisible" torpedoes are never High Yield. High Yield torpedo FX are on the Costume-draw budget, while standard Torpedo FX are on the FX budget. Guess which one caps out first? In fact, I've been led to believe that it's nearly impossible to cap out the Costume-draw budget.

Anyway, invisible NON-High Yield Torpedoes are a bane to us as Designers, as well. And we're working to reduce their frequency, and potency. We're currently working on a change that should have a noticable impact on the Borg's ability to one-shot (or come close).

That said, high Kinetic resistance is always, always, always a good idea. If you have an ability that increases it, you should be running it as frequently as possible when fighting the Borg.

What would you do to balance this nerf? Borg ships are already pathetic. They are actually the weakest NPCs in game, including at level 54/elite. If you play with the foundry, they will always lose a fight, no matter which opponent they fight.

In addition, getting rid of high yield torpedoes is extremely easy, especially with fire at will or an aceton assimilator (the perect "fire and forget" defense in stfs), so it makes the challenge... unchallenging. So easily overcomed.

So, do you plan to give Borg ships some more abilities if you remove some kinetic damage? Or is it a simple nerf?

ashkrik23

borticuscryptic wrote: »

The "invisible" torpedoes are never High Yield. High Yield torpedo FX are on the Costume-draw budget, while standard Torpedo FX are on the FX budget. Guess which one caps out first? In fact, I've been led to believe that it's nearly impossible to cap out the Costume-draw budget.

Anyway, invisible NON-High Yield Torpedoes are a bane to us as Designers, as well. And we're working to reduce their frequency, and potency. We're currently working on a change that should have a noticable impact on the Borg's ability to one-shot (or come close).

That said, high Kinetic resistance is always, always, always a good idea. If you have an ability that increases it, you should be running it as frequently as possible when fighting the Borg.




This ability certainly suffers from FX-draw limitations, and can sometimes be very difficult to see in the midst of combat, possibly even invisible. We're recently been going through our higher-rank ships (like Borg Cubes, Tac Cubes, Transwarp Gates, etc) and reducing their Spread ranks from 3 down to 2 or 1 to reduce the raw damage and number of projectiles.




Off the top of my head, the only Energy weapons that should be capable of dealing massive damage in a single hit are those used by the Unimatrix Ships on Into The Hive. They have a power mechanic that is meant to keep players engaging both of them simultaneously - if you move out of range of either of them, they will Lance you which can frequently be a one-hit-kill. So just stay between them, and they can't use that ability.

The Queen and the Transwarp Gate (in Infected) are also capable of hitting very hard, but they shouldn't be reaching one-shot capacity. If anyone experiences this, please post a screenshot of your combat log.

Gates have been at one-shot level for a long time.

voporak

borticuscryptic wrote: »

The "invisible" torpedoes are never High Yield. High Yield torpedo FX are on the Costume-draw budget, while standard Torpedo FX are on the FX budget. Guess which one caps out first? In fact, I've been led to believe that it's nearly impossible to cap out the Costume-draw budget.

Anyway, invisible NON-High Yield Torpedoes are a bane to us as Designers, as well. And we're working to reduce their frequency, and potency. We're currently working on a change that should have a noticable impact on the Borg's ability to one-shot (or come close).

That said, high Kinetic resistance is always, always, always a good idea. If you have an ability that increases it, you should be running it as frequently as possible when fighting the Borg.




This ability certainly suffers from FX-draw limitations, and can sometimes be very difficult to see in the midst of combat, possibly even invisible. We're recently been going through our higher-rank ships (like Borg Cubes, Tac Cubes, Transwarp Gates, etc) and reducing their Spread ranks from 3 down to 2 or 1 to reduce the raw damage and number of projectiles.




Off the top of my head, the only Energy weapons that should be capable of dealing massive damage in a single hit are those used by the Unimatrix Ships on Into The Hive. They have a power mechanic that is meant to keep players engaging both of them simultaneously - if you move out of range of either of them, they will Lance you which can frequently be a one-hit-kill. So just stay between them, and they can't use that ability.

The Queen and the Transwarp Gate (in Infected) are also capable of hitting very hard, but they shouldn't be reaching one-shot capacity. If anyone experiences this, please post a screenshot of your combat log.

Does this explain why during a KASE I got mysteriously one-shotted out of nowhere after I blew a gate? Though I recall that it had been gone for several seconds, I don't know if that's enough time for a torpedo spread to reach me if it was fired just before the gate exploded.

tk79

borticuscryptic wrote: »

The Queen and the Transwarp Gate (in Infected) are also capable of hitting very hard, but they shouldn't be reaching one-shot capacity. If anyone experiences this, please post a screenshot of your combat log.

The Queen one-shot my tanking recluse once with her... erm... Aceton Assimilator. 34K hull damage x2 in a row through full shields.

Of course, two shots isn't one-shot, but it was not like she actually shot me twice, if you know what I mean.

legendarylycan

tk79 wrote: »

The Queen one-shot my tanking recluse once with her... erm... Aceton Assimilator. 34K hull damage x2 in a row through full shields.

Of course, two shots isn't one-shot, but it was not like she actually shot me twice, if you know what I mean.

well, that one-shot is probably intended, to prevent anyone from riding her TRIBBLE and keep a respectable distance

nicha0

Pretty sure if you removed normal plasma torpedo critical hits you'd kill almost all the one-shots from the Gates, though it has some nasty combos, they are fair.

The queen and unimatrix spread attacks are quite often one hit without crits, even tanks don't survive the crits. They do need a lower level version of the ability. Donatra's spread needs a look at as well, its a one hit ability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5daCTS7YGc
At 7:57 there are logs showing the gate torps crit, not the greatest log as 95% of the crits end up being the plasma fire proc, but it is there. Seeing how low the damage was on that one, my guess is the potential range of damage from these torps is huge, causing one hits on some crits and almost nothing on other shots.

The plasma fire crits are another issue, they can burn down a tank since they all critical through the duration. A series of crit fires can put everything on cool down leaving you helpless, but team mates should give you a hand.

Overall tac cubes need more sustained damage, the gates are pretty lethal, and regular cubes probably put out more damage than a tactical cube does.