The easiest way to look at this thread: sacrifice vs gain.
What must a cruiser sacrifice to achieve escort level of damage vs what must an escort sacrifice to achieve cruiser level tank vs what must a... etc etc.
A cruiser must sacrifice most of it's tank and a lot of it's heals to even strive to achieve escort level damage (which it still won't be able to do). Whereas an escort, it just has to sacrifice... almost nothing? Just slot on neutronium, monotanium, take out the RCS, and slot heals on it's engi and sci, and all of a sudden you have a ship that can tank almost ANY PVE content as well as a cruiser.
Ex: I run an Imperial. She is a sick beast. I can tank a Tac Cube and Gateway with ease. No problemo senor. And I can deal acceptable damage. Not good, not great, but acceptable. Now if I wanted to bolster my damage, I would need to change up my build, most sacrificing my engi slots to RCS (so I can move around better), and change out to single cannons and turrets with a torp. And even then, I would still probably only be able to achieve maybe 60% of an escort level of DPS.
I also have a Fleet Patrol Escort. And if you want an escort that never dies? She's your ship. I can tank a Tac Cube and Gateway with that ship almost as easily as with my Imperial. And to do it? I just slot in two neutroniums and two monotaniums. I use my Lt Engi as an EPtS1, Aux2SIF1, and my ensign sci as a HE1, my uni Lt as a HE1 and TSS2. And guess what? She just won't die. Ever. I have had runs with that ship where I held aggro from the boss class enemies for the entire duration of their health bars. And I didn't die. Not even once. I never came close to death, the lowest my hull ever going being around 45% (shortly thereafter being healed back up by HE1 + Aux2SIF1). My shields almost never went down (EPtS1 + TSS2 + DCE + WCE is a rather potent combo), and I was able to hug the tac cube and stay within 5k of the gateway.
Now someone tell me that there isn't something wrong there. Two fleet level ships, two jobs. The Fleet Cruiser can tank like a boss, and deal ok damage. The Fleet level escort can tank like a boss, and deal boss damage. Um... what? And all my FPE sacrifices to do this is an RCS. NOTHING MORE. My cruiser? I would have to change out my BOff slots, to slot an EPtW3 (instead of EPtS3), a DEM (instead of an EPtS/Aux2SIF), and so on and so forth. I would lose out on a TON of tank, just to try to deal more damage.
Sacrifice vs gain. Escort: minimal sacrifice, massive gain. Cruiser: massive sacrifice, minimal (if not outright NO) gain.
The absolute most embarrassing part: my escort can stay on target for eternity, even with the damage she's dealing, whereas my cruiser specced for pure damage can't. That's just wrong.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I'm fairly certain it's not the whine of the engines I'm hearing.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Originally Posted by bloctoad
I'm fairly certain it's not the whine of the engines I'm hearing.
It's good to see syberghost concurs.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Escorts are the best dps.
Sci vessels are the best healers/tanks
Cruisers are a fusion of both "Jacks of all trades-master of nothing" able to be built to tank, do moderate DPS and heal rather efficiently almost as well as a Sci vessel.
I see very little need to tweak escorts or "NERF" them. I see no need to NERF cruisers.
It is damn funny people want the cruiser to be the best at everything when in reality it is the worst in everything but can do it all which none of the other class ships can do with any great effiiency.
Today we fight the GAULS......monstrous and HAIRY beyond reason.
That would be good - I see escorts now in ESTF tanking all the time - they should be quick in and out straffing - but now many can take sustained fire.
funny... In the last weeks I played everyday at least 5-8 stfs and what I see is a lot of cruisers who can't tank and/or heal. When I engage a cube or a gate I must do everything on my own, my escort do not have any help so I have to manage the agro and if I need healing usually I do not receive any help: no hull heal, no one extend his shield to my ship...
many cruisers have a fragile build, so can't have a susteined dps. Moreover direct dps is not the only way a cruiser can attack, most of player ignore this.
p.s.
In order to have a good escort's build, I spent a lot of time testing several changes (items, skill, abilities), a lot of EC and dilithium, when I read post like this and see some cruisers so strong that I can't destroy it then I can just think that many players just do not read the forums, do not ask for help, just want an easy and cheap build and a "god mode" button.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
The easiest way to look at this thread: sacrifice vs gain.
What must a cruiser sacrifice to achieve escort level of damage vs what must an escort sacrifice to achieve cruiser level tank vs what must a... etc etc.
I agree that sacrifice vs. gain is the best way to look at things, but I disagree on a cruiser becoming anything like "easy to kill" if it goes for a damage focus.
That said i still think an across the board +1 turning to fed crusiers would not be remiss. Without sacrificing anything, just a +1 turn buff.
Well, people need to not fly cruisers if they don't want to fill the role. Don't pick a tank and then complain you can't deal damage, when said tank is never meant to deal damage. This isn't a new concept in MMO's.
Maybe a slight nerf to escort hulls, and the only buff that could be possibly needed would be the power drain on beam weapons. Outside of that, the only reason for "nerf escorts" of "buff cruiser" threads is, again, people picking a tank while wanting to be superman. I have no problems tanking when I occasionally fly my cruiser, and I don't expect to deal uber amounts of damage.
People need to stop trying to shoehorn this game into episdoes of TNG or DS9. This is a MMO and it follows certain principles of an MMO.
If anything, people need to start reading the class descriptions on the character creation screen.
I'll say this for SWTOR; the people didn't complain their Bounty Hunter tank couldn't do damage. Not sure why people expect tanks in this game to be any different than any other tank in any other MMO.
Follow you own advice and read the character creation for engineer no where does it say your definitation of tank or is tank mentioned, being in virtually unarmed ship is not mentioned either just the opposite ,You should follow your own advice and READ
This is not a Generic space MMO if it was it would have went Bankrupt 2 years ago
Its a Star trek MMO ( huge difference )
There is and NEVER was a MMO ( Tank ) in Star Trek and that Sir is the problem and it will Never go away until it is changed....period
The Entire idea of a MMO Tank in Star Trek is Absurd in the first place
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Who ever says that cruisers are just tankers they are lying!:mad: Even with all dmg resistance skills and heals cruisers die faster than sci ships and escorts. They are by bad design a bit of both dmg dealers and tankers. The op escorts captains that are saying that the dmg of cruisers is great at it is now are liars! For example first you need to sacrifice your defence skills, then you need to trap a escort in warp plasma, then hit EPTW then APB and DEM then fire! Only in very rare specific circumstances like this you can deal dmg. And that is not often because the turn rate is horrible and not everyone can have mk xii acc3 weapons wide angle quantum torpedoes.
Who ever says that cruisers are just tankers they are lying!:mad: Even with all dmg resistance skills and heals cruisers die faster than sci ships and escorts. They are by bad design a bit of both dmg dealers and tankers. The op escorts captains that are saying that the dmg of cruisers is great at it is now are liars! For example first you need to sacrifice your defence skills, then you need to trap a escort in warp plasma, then hit EPTW then APB and DEM then fire! Only in very rare specific circumstances like this you can deal dmg. And that is not often because the turn rate is horrible and not everyone can have mk xii acc3 weapons wide angle quantum torpedoes.
If your cruiser dies faster than an Escort...you're playing wrong :cool:
Who ever says that cruisers are just tankers they are lying!:mad: Even with all dmg resistance skills and heals cruisers die faster than sci ships and escorts. They are by bad design a bit of both dmg dealers and tankers. The op escorts captains that are saying that the dmg of cruisers is great at it is now are liars! For example first you need to sacrifice your defence skills, then you need to trap a escort in warp plasma, then hit EPTW then APB and DEM then fire! Only in very rare specific circumstances like this you can deal dmg. And that is not often because the turn rate is horrible and not everyone can have mk xii acc3 weapons wide angle quantum torpedoes.
learn how to build your cruiser... If you die faster than an escort, then your build is a fail... simply because a cruiser has more eng consoles, eng abilities and sci abilities.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
No there doesn't need to be any nerfing to any ships hull. They won't do it anyway since this is a silly idea and no justification for this, and would only give PWE a whole lot of angry customers if they saw the ships they already paid for nerfed for no good reason.
Only fix needed to make cruisers and sci ships more useful compared to escorts is all other weapons besides DHC need to be fixed. Make all weapons fire similar to DHC firing cycle where they deal all the damage in the first second of the cycle then spend 2 seconds on cooldown allowing you to gain more power back, this will fix DPS of beams and single cannons and make non escorts more useful.
why so beam boats can tank 8 players AND deal burst damage in pvp? no, i think not.
Who ever says that cruisers are just tankers they are lying!:mad: Even with all dmg resistance skills and heals cruisers die faster than sci ships and escorts. They are by bad design a bit of both dmg dealers and tankers. The op escorts captains that are saying that the dmg of cruisers is great at it is now are liars! For example first you need to sacrifice your defence skills, then you need to trap a escort in warp plasma, then hit EPTW then APB and DEM then fire! Only in very rare specific circumstances like this you can deal dmg. And that is not often because the turn rate is horrible and not everyone can have mk xii acc3 weapons wide angle quantum torpedoes.
awww, sorry you had to time your skills and pay attention to get a kill, guess what good escorts who mop the floor with you are timing there skills to hit in the tiny window when your skills are on cd. they are just better players than you.
I will say however that i find the fact that lockbox gambling cheese ships rivaling even fleet ships in stats is sickening and the p2w err pay to have a significant starting advantage model of cryptic is going to ruin pvp if its not ruined already.
Succesful f2p models sell cosmetic things only. making money yet maintaining competitive integrity. cryptic and perfect TRIBBLE just dont seem to care about the integrity of sto and most mmo pvpers will continue to stay away.
lack of integrity is not surprising coming from a government who funds and supports daily cyber attacks against the US
A cruiser must sacrifice most of it's tank and a lot of it's heals to even strive to achieve escort level damage (which it still won't be able to do). Whereas an escort, it just has to sacrifice... almost nothing? Just slot on neutronium, monotanium, take out the RCS, and slot heals on it's engi and sci, and all of a sudden you have a ship that can tank almost ANY PVE content as well as a cruiser.
Over a year and a half ago I dropped my cruiser for this exact reason. I found I could tank things just as easily in my escort as I could in my DPS set up cruiser. Just like my cruiser I could stick my tanky escort right next to a gate or tac cube, aggro it and survive, while doing much more damage than my DPS cruiser.
Comments
What must a cruiser sacrifice to achieve escort level of damage vs what must an escort sacrifice to achieve cruiser level tank vs what must a... etc etc.
A cruiser must sacrifice most of it's tank and a lot of it's heals to even strive to achieve escort level damage (which it still won't be able to do). Whereas an escort, it just has to sacrifice... almost nothing? Just slot on neutronium, monotanium, take out the RCS, and slot heals on it's engi and sci, and all of a sudden you have a ship that can tank almost ANY PVE content as well as a cruiser.
Ex: I run an Imperial. She is a sick beast. I can tank a Tac Cube and Gateway with ease. No problemo senor. And I can deal acceptable damage. Not good, not great, but acceptable. Now if I wanted to bolster my damage, I would need to change up my build, most sacrificing my engi slots to RCS (so I can move around better), and change out to single cannons and turrets with a torp. And even then, I would still probably only be able to achieve maybe 60% of an escort level of DPS.
I also have a Fleet Patrol Escort. And if you want an escort that never dies? She's your ship. I can tank a Tac Cube and Gateway with that ship almost as easily as with my Imperial. And to do it? I just slot in two neutroniums and two monotaniums. I use my Lt Engi as an EPtS1, Aux2SIF1, and my ensign sci as a HE1, my uni Lt as a HE1 and TSS2. And guess what? She just won't die. Ever. I have had runs with that ship where I held aggro from the boss class enemies for the entire duration of their health bars. And I didn't die. Not even once. I never came close to death, the lowest my hull ever going being around 45% (shortly thereafter being healed back up by HE1 + Aux2SIF1). My shields almost never went down (EPtS1 + TSS2 + DCE + WCE is a rather potent combo), and I was able to hug the tac cube and stay within 5k of the gateway.
Now someone tell me that there isn't something wrong there. Two fleet level ships, two jobs. The Fleet Cruiser can tank like a boss, and deal ok damage. The Fleet level escort can tank like a boss, and deal boss damage. Um... what? And all my FPE sacrifices to do this is an RCS. NOTHING MORE. My cruiser? I would have to change out my BOff slots, to slot an EPtW3 (instead of EPtS3), a DEM (instead of an EPtS/Aux2SIF), and so on and so forth. I would lose out on a TON of tank, just to try to deal more damage.
Sacrifice vs gain. Escort: minimal sacrifice, massive gain. Cruiser: massive sacrifice, minimal (if not outright NO) gain.
The absolute most embarrassing part: my escort can stay on target for eternity, even with the damage she's dealing, whereas my cruiser specced for pure damage can't. That's just wrong.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
It's good to see syberghost concurs.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Sci vessels are the best healers/tanks
Cruisers are a fusion of both "Jacks of all trades-master of nothing" able to be built to tank, do moderate DPS and heal rather efficiently almost as well as a Sci vessel.
I see very little need to tweak escorts or "NERF" them. I see no need to NERF cruisers.
It is damn funny people want the cruiser to be the best at everything when in reality it is the worst in everything but can do it all which none of the other class ships can do with any great effiiency.
funny... In the last weeks I played everyday at least 5-8 stfs and what I see is a lot of cruisers who can't tank and/or heal. When I engage a cube or a gate I must do everything on my own, my escort do not have any help so I have to manage the agro and if I need healing usually I do not receive any help: no hull heal, no one extend his shield to my ship...
many cruisers have a fragile build, so can't have a susteined dps. Moreover direct dps is not the only way a cruiser can attack, most of player ignore this.
p.s.
In order to have a good escort's build, I spent a lot of time testing several changes (items, skill, abilities), a lot of EC and dilithium, when I read post like this and see some cruisers so strong that I can't destroy it then I can just think that many players just do not read the forums, do not ask for help, just want an easy and cheap build and a "god mode" button.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
I agree that sacrifice vs. gain is the best way to look at things, but I disagree on a cruiser becoming anything like "easy to kill" if it goes for a damage focus.
That said i still think an across the board +1 turning to fed crusiers would not be remiss. Without sacrificing anything, just a +1 turn buff.
Follow you own advice and read the character creation for engineer no where does it say your definitation of tank or is tank mentioned, being in virtually unarmed ship is not mentioned either just the opposite ,You should follow your own advice and READ
This is not a Generic space MMO if it was it would have went Bankrupt 2 years ago
Its a Star trek MMO ( huge difference )
There is and NEVER was a MMO ( Tank ) in Star Trek and that Sir is the problem and it will Never go away until it is changed....period
The Entire idea of a MMO Tank in Star Trek is Absurd in the first place
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
this is a never solved old problem: attack patterns should buff weapons damage only (energy and projectile weapons), nothing else.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
If your cruiser dies faster than an Escort...you're playing wrong :cool:
learn how to build your cruiser... If you die faster than an escort, then your build is a fail... simply because a cruiser has more eng consoles, eng abilities and sci abilities.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
why so beam boats can tank 8 players AND deal burst damage in pvp? no, i think not.
awww, sorry you had to time your skills and pay attention to get a kill, guess what good escorts who mop the floor with you are timing there skills to hit in the tiny window when your skills are on cd. they are just better players than you.
Succesful f2p models sell cosmetic things only. making money yet maintaining competitive integrity. cryptic and perfect TRIBBLE just dont seem to care about the integrity of sto and most mmo pvpers will continue to stay away.
lack of integrity is not surprising coming from a government who funds and supports daily cyber attacks against the US
Over a year and a half ago I dropped my cruiser for this exact reason. I found I could tank things just as easily in my escort as I could in my DPS set up cruiser. Just like my cruiser I could stick my tanky escort right next to a gate or tac cube, aggro it and survive, while doing much more damage than my DPS cruiser.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse