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Literary Challenge #38 Discussion Thread

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  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    This one seemed to be more than a pain in the butt than i'd prefer it to be, and if i could have done it longer i would have tried to fill in more. It's not quite what i wanted it to be, so sadly not as victorious as i'd originally thought. I did it in a different style as a first attempt at dialog which i admit was a great suggestion because it kind of switched things up a little more for me. It's not as good as i wanted it to be, but they can't all be winners. I would have loved to add in more good cop bad cop as well as add more to the event in question, but it was already running long.


    As a side note, i always write these on writing app then copy them over and i'm still having the question marks pop up although this time it was erratic and didn't replace all of the " and ' but just some here and there. It was a bit weird.


    Any ways, as always questions, comments, and feedback are always welcome.
    Fantastic entry, the format was perfect, and it was fun to read something which was neither log entry nor story, so top marks on that one :) Only one slight point, and I may have missed it, was that I didn't see a note stating that Johnson had re-entered the room. But other than that, spot on :cool: As GulBerat pointed out, Johnson was quite a dislikable bigot, so amusing to think that he's going to wind up going off the deep end, a bit like the unfortunate Captain Braxton :D
  • ambassadormolariambassadormolari Member Posts: 709 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Just updated my post, though this is becoming much longer than I anticipated.
    Loved it :D Of course, I'm curious as to Nair's species, and the class of the DaVinci but other than that, no other critique beyond it finished too damn soon :D

    PS Welcome to the party :)
    gulberat wrote: »
    I look forward to seeing the rest, and I am also interested in knowing about Nair's species.

    In addition, I wanted to point out that from the start, he comes off as someone with a good head on his shoulders and sound command/management training, which I do not always see in fanfics (in any venue). That definitely caught my attention about him.


    Thanks! In answer to your questions, I didn't name the ship's class (a Miranda) because I didn't see any need to in the context of the story. As for Nair's species, the Korda, I think I'll actually reveal little by little about them in further literary challenges.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mussapiensmussapiens Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Just updated my post, though this is becoming much longer than I anticipated.

    HA HA HA HA HA.

    I feel somewhat guilty for just puking the entire thing up in a clump, but once I got started I really wanted to see a resolution. Can you tell I just finished reading The Time Machine?
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Just updated my post, though this is becoming much longer than I anticipated. Thanks! In answer to your questions, I didn't name the ship's class (a Miranda) because I didn't see any need to in the context of the story. As for Nair's species, the Korda, I think I'll actually reveal little by little about them in further literary challenges.
    Excellent update, and the description of New York really brought to life the environment to life, it was like being there :) As for the class of the ship, I guess it just helps me to build a mental map of who's sitting where :) Definitely looking forwards to reading more about the Korda in future LCs :)

    mussapiens wrote: »
    HA HA HA HA HA.

    I feel somewhat guilty for just puking the entire thing up in a clump, but once I got started I really wanted to see a resolution. Can you tell I just finished reading The Time Machine?
    I was actually more thinking of the end of AI, rather than the Time Machine, but it was a fantastic entry, it would be good to be able to see what Mnemophage looked like :)
  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I definitely want to find out more about Mnemnophage, and also why she was allowed in Starfleet. I don't think my Devidian would've been permitted to serve if not for the fact that he is capable of taking artificially-generated nourishment, all denials by "normal" Devidians to the contrary. (This is not a snipe. You've just piqued my curiosity, is all. :) )

    Oh, and I must ask...is "mus sapiens" a tribute to Splinter? ;)

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  • wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,728 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Fantastic entry, the format was perfect, and it was fun to read something which was neither log entry nor story, so top marks on that one :) Only one slight point, and I may have missed it, was that I didn't see a note stating that Johnson had re-entered the room. But other than that, spot on :cool: As GulBerat pointed out, Johnson was quite a dislikable bigot, so amusing to think that he's going to wind up going off the deep end, a bit like the unfortunate Captain Braxton :D

    There should have been and i thought there was, but i must have missed putting it in. And yeah, if i knew the limit per post, i would have loved to add in more of a "did A happen because of B or did B happen Because of A" theme as well as go into more of what happened to make Johnson act out. I'll probably edit my personal copy of it to flesh it out better.
  • wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,728 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    gulberat wrote: »
    Well, Wraith, you definitely took my challenge to write dialogue and ran with it! :D

    I could hear the tone of everybody in that room just perfectly (and as individual, distinct personalities), and I think my favorite moment was Wraith finally asking what I'm sure every reader must've had on their mind: how that virulently racist, maladjusted Johnson actually had a job.

    I wonder if the evidence of this stunt will get Johnson fired? Which will then lead to his going rogue, which will set up the whole causality loop... ;)

    Thank you, it was a great suggestion as i said earlier because it made me think out side of the box a bit more. Had i had more space i'd have definitely written more into that and WHY johnson was acting the way he did. (that would have been more of them first boarding the ship as well as the first telling of the story)
  • wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,728 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Tanadanat: I liked it, it was brief but enjoyable.


    Gulberat: I liked it and it was really well written, I had to read it twice though trying to think of where it was.


    Superhombre777: when i read in the forums what happened i initially didn't like the idea, but it was well done and felt right for the character and the time, so well done.


    Jocelyn2: If that's the future i say we take of and nuke the entire site from orbit


    Marcusdkane: It liked it, it's not the first time Marvel and star trek met, but for some reason i kept imaging stark talking more like Jameson. An enjoyable read none the less.

    Cmdrscarlet: It was too short for my tastes, but that's only because it really brings you in and leaves you wanting to know what happened to lead up to it as well as what happened after.
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    There should have been and i thought there was, but i must have missed putting it in. And yeah, if i knew the limit per post, i would have loved to add in more of a "did A happen because of B or did B happen Because of A" theme as well as go into more of what happened to make Johnson act out. I'll probably edit my personal copy of it to flesh it out better.

    As above, that was the only bit that threw me, when I thought "He's back in the room :confused: " but other than that, it was a fantastic entry. I think anything else to it would have probably overly complicated it and detracted from it's simplicity, which I think was what made it so good :)
    Marcusdkane: It liked it, it's not the first time Marvel and star trek met, but for some reason i kept imaging stark talking more like Jameson. An enjoyable read none the less.
    Thanks :) Yeah, that makes sense about the Jameson comparison... All I had to go on, was the footage of him in Iron Man II where he was goofing to the camera before getting serious... I read the TNG/X-Men crossover novel (and wish I hadn't) I just figured Stark Industries would be the best company in the 60s to build Starfleet-grade technology (my other alternative, was for them to have contacted Thomas Newton at World Enterprises :D )
  • cmdrscarletcmdrscarlet Member Posts: 5,137 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Cmdrscarlet: It was too short for my tastes, but that's only because it really brings you in and leaves you wanting to know what happened to lead up to it as well as what happened after.

    That is extremely fair and thank you! :)

    To be frank, as much as I enjoy writing, I am a little loathe to write an intro and wrap up. The main reason being the message board medium. I like just getting into the body of the event, throw some phrases that may/should catch up the reader, then exit with the intent that the reader can finish the story on their own.

    That's not to say my way is better than everyone else's work at all. Everyone's contribution get me through my lunch breaks at work and inspire me to stay creative for Kathryn and the Solaris ;) But for me, I am deliberately leaving out details for the sake of the topic. I have not developed my character(s) enough to be able to put a more cogent piece together, yet Kathryn is being built with these LCs and there is a Grand Story (tm) in my head.

    Admittedly, I was tempted to back out of this challenge because time travel is inherently messy and I'm not enough of a philosopher to "get it right" (the loops from The Terminator assault my intelligence and Start Trek already abuses temporal activities enough ... imho). At the same time, something is tickling me to write more before this session closes because its not enough.
  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Gulberat: I liked it and it was really well written, I had to read it twice though trying to think of where it was.

    Thanks. I felt that a subtle approach was called for because imposing too much from the fictional world upon something still so recent was a difficult proposition at best.

    Another note. Alyosha was raised as a Russian, but at least if one good thing did come out of how Earth turned out in the Trek universe, it is that he reacted to that time and place the same as he would have to any disaster or attack or place of suffering in Russia's history or anywhere in Earth's history. That people would soon suffer...that was enough for it to have that meaning to him. That it was "not my nation" didn't matter, nor did any other "stuff" that has built up in our time, nor did anything that might be in the history books by the 25th century.

    Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
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  • ambassadormolariambassadormolari Member Posts: 709 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Aaaand, I've just added the last bit of my entry! Just as a warning, though, you're bound to find the odd question mark here and there in unusual places throughout the entry. This is because, for some reason, whenever I copy and paste something from Word or Notepad, the apostraphes and quotation marks all get morphed into question marks. Weird, but go figure.

    EDIT: TRIBBLE! I did something while editing it that caused me to lose half the post. I re-posted, but now there's question marks everywhere. Please bear with me, ladies and gents, I'm going to try to edit this again quickly.

    EDIT AGAIN: There, fixed it by attaching to a separate post. Note to self: in future, make entries a bit shorter.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • superhombre777superhombre777 Member Posts: 147 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Superhombre777: when i read in the forums what happened i initially didn't like the idea, but it was well done and felt right for the character and the time, so well done.


    Jocelyn2: If that's the future i say we take of and nuke the entire site from orbit.

    Thanks. It sounds like my rebellious streak is rather obvious...maybe next time Branflakes' topic won't be so out of family with what I have in mind for my crew. (I have two installments worth of interpersonal disasters waiting for a good time to drop them.)

    About Jocelyn's entry - I was thinking the same thing! Hopefully we haven't scared her away.

    Your entry was highly entertaining. Good job. The color coded names was a good idea.
  • superhombre777superhombre777 Member Posts: 147 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    To be frank, as much as I enjoy writing, I am a little loathe to write an intro and wrap up. The main reason being the message board medium. I like just getting into the body of the event, throw some phrases that may/should catch up the reader, then exit with the intent that the reader can finish the story on their own.

    That's not to say my way is better than everyone else's work at all. Everyone's contribution get me through my lunch breaks at work and inspire me to stay creative for Kathryn and the Solaris ;) But for me, I am deliberately leaving out details for the sake of the topic. I have not developed my character(s) enough to be able to put a more cogent piece together, yet Kathryn is being built with these LCs and there is a Grand Story (tm) in my head.

    I don't think yours was too short. We saw Kathryn in action and got hints about some interesting interpersonal relationships onboard. I liked it.
  • ironphoenix113ironphoenix113 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Made a few changes to mine again. Smoothed out some dialog, corrected some inconsistencies, and so on. Also just finished writing the story of how Bryan and Ibalei met. If you'd like, you can give it a read here: The Academy Days
    Vice Admiral Bryan Mitchel Valot
    Commanding officer: Odyssey class U.S.S. Athena
    Admiral of the 1st Assault Fleet
    Join date: Some time in Closed Beta
  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Aaaand, I've just added the last bit of my entry!

    Very nice--and especially nice that, even with the parallel to the first X-Men movie, it was still very distinct and easily able to stand on its own as a separate idea. :)

    I just wonder something...how well would your captain get along with a Bajoran follower of the Prophets, for example? Would he make a distinction between the fanatics and the reasonable ones? (And we definitely saw on DS9 quite the spectrum of Bajoran believers, from very levelheaded like Bareil to completely wacko.)

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  • mussapiensmussapiens Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    gulberat wrote: »
    I definitely want to find out more about Mnemnophage, and also why she was allowed in Starfleet. I don't think my Devidian would've been permitted to serve if not for the fact that he is capable of taking artificially-generated nourishment, all denials by "normal" Devidians to the contrary. (This is not a snipe. You've just piqued my curiosity, is all. :) )

    Oh, and I must ask...is "mus sapiens" a tribute to Splinter? ;)

    Mus Sapiens was pulled wholesale out of my head, mostly because I find rodents to be pretty cool. :p

    I intend to get into a lot of the nitty-gritty of my crew and my character with future stories - there's a reason she was allowed in Starfleet, and she looks pretty darned gnarly, which I will detail eventually. As I started somewhat in medias res, I couldn't find a point within which to jam a description. I'll find somewhere to put a shower scene in the next one (and given as half of the impetus towards designing the Mnemophage is "create a character who is absolutely incapable of having a physical relationship", writing a non-sexy shower scene will be interesting).

    In short, Mnem is an anomaly, and her odd system of memory storage/deletion means she really doesn't know where she came from or what she is. It IS a requirement to survival, and if done to liberally it CAN create other creatures like herself... but again, another story. As of now, all I've decided is that her suit is named Rodney.

    Still, I'm quite glad for the feedback. Y'all are doing well out there, and it's a pleasure reading all your stuff.
  • cmdrscarletcmdrscarlet Member Posts: 5,137 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    @ superhombre777 - Thank you :)

    BUT, I did go back and add one little detail that makes other details make more sense.

    SPOILER ALERT: I'm 10 levels in-game away from replacing the Solaris. I'm tempted to keep the name, but since I am not a fan of Solaris-A, I may create a "ship destroyed" story to get the new ship in action. I dunno ...
  • squatsaucesquatsauce Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I had a similar conundrum. There's actually a rather lengthy long-form story I'm still working on that details a confrontation between Khas' chimeric Bride of Quiet and much larger Terran vessel called Shimmering. There is sadness, adventure, hope, and the death of beloved characters. At least they are beloved to me. I don't, you know, have a fan base or anything. I'm not sure I'd respect their taste in literature if I did.

    About half of it is written down over in the STORP.org forums.
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Aaaand, I've just added the last bit of my entry! Just as a warning, though, you're bound to find the odd question mark here and there in unusual places throughout the entry. This is because, for some reason, whenever I copy and paste something from Word or Notepad, the apostraphes and quotation marks all get morphed into question marks. Weird, but go figure.

    EDIT: TRIBBLE! I did something while editing it that caused me to lose half the post. I re-posted, but now there's question marks everywhere. Please bear with me, ladies and gents, I'm going to try to edit this again quickly.

    EDIT AGAIN: There, fixed it by attaching to a separate post. Note to self: in future, make entries a bit shorter.

    Excellent wrap to the story :D I really like the sound of the Sikkorans as well :) Peter David had a species he (over)used called the Redeemers who were also religious zealouts (as much as I love Peter's work, I feel he did overuse them, and Meyer and Boyajian to the point where the gag was no longer funny) but the Sikkorans have a nice sound to them, it'll be good to see more of them in the future :cool:
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Made a few changes to mine again. Smoothed out some dialog, corrected some inconsistencies, and so on. Also just finished writing the story of how Bryan and Ibalei met. If you'd like, you can give it a read here: The Academy Days

    Very nice and to the point :)
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    SPOILER ALERT: I'm 10 levels in-game away from replacing the Solaris. I'm tempted to keep the name, but since I am not a fan of Solaris-A, I may create a "ship destroyed" story to get the new ship in action. I dunno ...
    :eek:
    I would say "I'm shocked!" but I killed my longest existing character to move things in a different direction, despite him being immortal, so I can hardly say "Don't do it"... :D Any ideas what your new ship might be?
  • ironphoenix113ironphoenix113 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Very nice and to the point :)

    Ty! :) I figured that, now that Bryan and Ibalei are married, that it would probably be a good time to write up how the pair met. As an aside, Ibalei was actually the Bridge Officer I received when I completed the SS Azura mission, so I though it might be interesting to have them know each other from all the way back to the academy.
    Vice Admiral Bryan Mitchel Valot
    Commanding officer: Odyssey class U.S.S. Athena
    Admiral of the 1st Assault Fleet
    Join date: Some time in Closed Beta
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Ty! :) I figured that, now that Bryan and Ibalei are married, that it would probably be a good time to write up how the pair met. As an aside, Ibalei was actually the Bridge Officer I received when I completed the SS Azura mission, so I though it might be interesting to have them know each other from all the way back to the academy.

    The one thing which did raise an eyebrow, was: Two years after graduating the Academy, they're Command Level officers? Even Marcus never climbed the career ladder that quickly :D I was looking at US Naval rank structures the other day while contemplating the background bio of Amanda's career, and while an officer would be eligible for promotion after 3 years at their present rank, the other criteria (for Commander and Captain) was between 15-20 years service :eek: But to go back to your entry, it was really nice, not overly drawn out or complicated, but did the job nicely :cool:
  • ironphoenix113ironphoenix113 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    (...snip)

    The way I kind of have my character written is that he's actually taken part in all of the in-game "incidents" that you see, such as the 2800, the Planet Killer, among others. As a result, he surged through the ranks in record time. Due to that fact, and because officers tend to get killed by the Klingons pretty quickly, he rose through the ranks in record time. Plus, I was just realizing, the game is still in 2409. From where I've written my story, Bryan became a flag officer towards the end of 2411. As a result, where I see the in-game events happening is rather out of synch with where they "Officially" happened. As a result of his rapid promotion, I've made an effort to write Bryan as a sort of "Thrown into a situation he wasn't prepared or trained for, but rises to the challenge anyways" type of character. I've also been, more recently, trying to subtly write in how being a flag officer at such a (relatively) young age has really been beginning to put serious stress on him. I guess what it all boils down to is the fact that I've been using these LC's as an extension of my character as he is in-game, a young officer, still rather fresh out of the academy, put into a position he never though he'd be in. At any rate, I can't wait to see what Branflakes has planned for us today :D.

    EDIT: And, Bryan and Ibalei both spent three years at the academy before graduating, so they began in 2406 and left in 2409, and have been in active service for three years, putting the current year (for how I envision my characters) at 2412.
    Vice Admiral Bryan Mitchel Valot
    Commanding officer: Odyssey class U.S.S. Athena
    Admiral of the 1st Assault Fleet
    Join date: Some time in Closed Beta
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    The way I kind of have my character written is that he's actually taken part in all of the in-game "incidents" that you see, such as the 2800, the Planet Killer, among others. As a result, he surged through the ranks in record time. Due to that fact, and because officers tend to get killed by the Klingons pretty quickly, he rose through the ranks in record time. Plus, I was just realizing, the game is still in 2409. From where I've written my story, Bryan became a flag officer towards the end of 2411. As a result, where I see the in-game events happening is rather out of synch with where they "Officially" happened. As a result of his rapid promotion, I've made an effort to write Bryan as a sort of "Thrown into a situation he wasn't prepared or trained for, but rises to the challenge anyways" type of character. I've also been, more recently, trying to subtly write in how being a flag officer at such a (relatively) young age has really been beginning to put serious stress on him. I guess what it all boils down to is the fact that I've been using these LC's as an extension of my character as he is in-game, a young officer, still rather fresh out of the academy, put into a position he never though he'd be in.
    Ahhh, that makes much more sense :D When I first wrote Marcus' character, I only had three things in mind: 1) He resurrected as an immortal at 28 years old, 2) He was a captain when he resurrected, and 3) He was in the same Academy class as Will Riker. That gave me D.o.B, and everything else, I just worked back from there. To be fair, he pretty much worked his way through the junior ranks at a relatively normal rate, it was only the jump from Commander to Captain which was somewhat accelerated, but as I wanted to stick with those three points, I just explain it by him going from commanding a ship's shakedown cruise, to being offered formal command of the ship, and he might've said "Throw in a promotion, and I'll do it..." :lol: I shifted the resurrection to being prior to achieving rank as that wasn't such a criteria, and then worked his biography around the TNG movie years. When I realized how old the Endeavour crew would have gotten by 2409 (and how ludicrous I considered the geriatric adventures of Kirk and Co) I felt it was time for new characters and a new ship ^_^
    At any rate, I can't wait to see what Branflakes has planned for us today :D.
    Likewise, I'll probably be staying up late to see what it might be before turning in for the night :cool:
    EDIT: And, Bryan and Ibalei both spent three years at the academy before graduating, so they began in 2406 and left in 2409, and have been in active service for three years, putting the current year (for how I envision my characters) at 2412.
    Have to admit, I thought the year was 2412, but it's all good :cool:
  • cmdrscarletcmdrscarlet Member Posts: 5,137 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    There must be a disconnect between game-time and ... not game-time. In other words, characters level too fast in the game to be remotely realistic. I mean, I can understand the war-torn future has a "necessity is the mother of invention" type of mentality. But to rationalize that in the fiction stretches credulity. For example - the game is three real years old but the game-year is still 2409.

    For my part I'm staying away from accurate Stardates from now on. Granted, I get my Stardate conversion from Starfleet Academy :D
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    There must be a disconnect between game-time and ... not game-time. In other words, characters level too fast in the game to be remotely realistic. I mean, I can understand the war-torn future has a "necessity is the mother of invention" type of mentality. But to rationalize that in the fiction stretches credulity. For example - the game is three real years old but the game-year is still 2409.

    For my part I'm staying away from accurate Stardates from now on. Granted, I get my Stardate conversion from Starfleet Academy :D
    I have to admit, I'm surprised that the game year hasn't progressed in real time, as the series' did, but I can see that characters in the game would increase in status more quickly than what would be realistic, I guess my perspective on that is skewed as a non-game player. Until I can get a working PC to handle the download, I guess I'll just have to continue enjoying the community, and using the LCs as a means to develop my 'on the fly' writing :)
  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I've handled the "time warp" issues differently with two different toons.

    One is a Cardassian exchange officer who was already commissioned as a gul in the Cardassian Defense Forces, when the events seen in the tutorial occurred. His rapid rise in rank--not to mention the fact that he was trusted with a command--makes sense given that he was already an O-6 equivalent in his native armed forces. For him it was simply a matter of learning enough about Starfleet tech and regs to handle a command there--and showing that he was trustworthy. This accomplished, he is now a dual-commissioned officer in both Starfleet and the CDF.

    The other...I decided to ignore the tutorial entirely and assume that he graduated the Academy at the beginning of the Dominion War.

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  • hfmuddhfmudd Member Posts: 881 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    gulberat wrote: »
    The other...I decided to ignore the tutorial entirely and assume that he graduated the Academy at the beginning of the Dominion War.
    Same here, for my one and only "actual" admiral character (who I haven't written about, yet).

    Sinclair had something like the tutorial - he was the LT in (temporary) command of USS Osiris, Miranda-class, while the captain and senior officers were all down having dinner with the governor of Ajilon Prime. Then the Klingon invasion force showed up. :eek: The captain's final order was to not attempt rescue and to "get that ship out of there"... so he did. :( He and a few other scared LT jgs and Ensigns, and a couple of dozen enlisted, spent the next three months running and fighting, then linking up with the surviving forces in the sector and fighting back, before they were finally ordered off the lines and the field command was made official. Thus began his rise to a rank that he still doesn't feel quite worthy or qualified for.

    As for the year, I doubt Cryptic has the manpower to advance the in-game year even if they wanted to. :p That said, IMO, the story is definitely advancing with every season. On the other hand, they can't ever end the war; it's just baked too deeply into the game's structure, early missions, etc.

    The fleet I'm in (the 26th) is split on the issue - some still count backwards from 2409, others figure we must be in 2412 by now.
    Join Date: January 2011
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