Vo'quvs seem a little bit bigger than those Jem'Hadar dreads, actually.
And speaking of the Hegh'ta (and its alt skin Haj), they indeed are too big. Along with the Qin (and Birok) raptors, they are very much comparable to Vor'chas. The only difference here is the wingspan, and as the wings are thin, the volume of all of those ships is really very similar.
Btw. have you ever seen a Hegh'ta next to a Defiant? It's funny how the giant beast among them is a third more manoeuvrable (that giant beast is the Hegh'ta).
EDIT: Ha! Found this old thread, but still valid. Look at the Klingon ship chart and judge yourself. The Hegh'ta is bigger than an Intrepid class! You realise the size of its wingtip cannons alone?!
It is even more funner that a bug ship can take out a carrier with its tiny little phew phew guns.
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Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
I mean, when it comes down to building these ships, making them the proper* size is the easiest part of it. Getting the shapes and materials right is much more difficult/time consuming. So there's no reason not to when that size is known.
*Proper size for those ships what we know what proper size is.
ETA: the only reason we ever vary the size of something, is for the sake of gameplay. (i.e. shuttles being bigger, so you can actually see them, etc.)
Didn't you guys purposely make the Vesta class much smaller then it's known size because you didn't want it to be the proper size (about that of the Sovereign class) and able to fire cannons with its slightly better turn rate so it got shrunk down to about the Intrepid size. For some reason I remember reading a post from one of the devs and that was the excuse at the time when the Vesta was released on why its scale was made so much smaller then its known size. It would not have broke the game to have the Vesta be its correct size so hopefully someday we can have the Vesta size increased to what it should have been.
It is even more funner that a bug ship can take out a carrier with its tiny little phew phew guns.
Well, I was alluding to the fact that these cannons on the hegh'ta (and most other BoPs, that are, however, smaller) are more visible and impressive than the Galaxy-X's spinal lance.
One would actually expect to wreak death and doom in whole enemy fleets with those cannons. It's just ridiculous to what degree most BoPs are oversized.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
I mean, when it comes down to building these ships, making them the proper* size is the easiest part of it. Getting the shapes and materials right is much more difficult/time consuming. So there's no reason not to when that size is known.
*Proper size for those ships what we know what proper size is.
ETA: the only reason we ever vary the size of something, is for the sake of gameplay. (i.e. shuttles being bigger, so you can actually see them, etc.)
in short:
the new shiny Dominion Lobi Store Dreadnought is about one third smaller than it should be and i have linked documents copyrighted by Paramount with the scale numbers and everything.
If you think most ship classes are the same size, that's more to do with your perception and far less to do with the actual ship sizes. For the most part (excluding shuttles), ships are the right size compared to each other. You'll notice the size difference in a big way if you're flying a carrier or dreadnought and park it next to a Galaxy class or even an Odyssey.
But not when you compare say a Defiant class to an Odyssey the scale is woefully off.
THe Defiant class is supposed to be only slightly larger than the Aquarius. I
ve parked my Defiant next to a deployed Aquarius, the scale is just flat wrong.
As stated by others, shuttles are bigger than they should be next to most ships, but most ships are roughly in line with each other, and most shuttles are the same.
Here are the actual models, side by side, in an orthographic view in 3d Studio Max.
We model in feet, and at a much smaller scale for space, so I had to do some conversion math, but it should be pretty close.
The Defiant was shown in vastly different scales at different points in the show, so there is really more of a range for it's length than an actual number. Your 122m for the Defiant is on the small side of that range. Generally it's somewhere between 120m and 170m. We're at that upper end, but still well within the loose canonical size for the ship.
Hope that helps.
Not really. All it does is make the ships feel really samey. The Hegh'tah is big enough it could give the Excelsior a hug, and yet could dance circles around the latter. I'm supposed to be twice the size of K-7! The Galaxy is supposed to be utterly gargantuan, but when galavanting around the universe, I feel really small.
Sure everything was shown at different sizes, that comes from using different models for different shots, but everything has a size that most people agree on.
Also, Spacedock. It's supposedly capable of containing 8 Galaxy-Class sized ships. A Galaxy class can't even fit through the doors. :rolleyes:
Also, Canon sized shuttles DO exist in game. They fly around starbases! I can see them just fine.
And finally.... Imperial? Really? You make models according to Imperial? I am ashamed Taco.
Uh. . . wha? Not really what? What makes what ship feel samey?
I'm sorry people don't believe that things are accurate, but really, most stuff is pretty damn close (640m vs 637m for 1701-D for instance) The Defiant does not have a single canonical length. There is an accepted range, because it, more than most was shown in such drastically different scales depending on the shot needed for the show/movie. We are within that range. You may wish that it was on the smaller side of that range, but it is still within tolerances.
If there is time in the schedule, and reason to do so, some scales might be able to be looked at again, but in general, it's much harder to change the scale of something once it's out and being used all over. As soon as we change anything, we'll catch hell for it. If we shrank the Defiant, a ton of people would come out of the woodwork telling us how tiny and insignificant it feels. Etc.
The engine is set up in feet, so yes, that's how things are built.
Uh. . . wha? Not really what? What makes what ship feel samey?
I'm sorry people don't believe that things are accurate, but really, most stuff is pretty damn close (640m vs 637m for 1701-D for instance) The Defiant does not have a single canonical length. There is an accepted range, because it, more than most was shown in such drastically different scales depending on the shot needed for the show/movie. We are within that range. You may wish that it was on the smaller side of that range, but it is still within tolerances.
If there is time in the schedule, and reason to do so, some scales might be able to be looked at again, but in general, it's much harder to change the scale of something once it's out and being used all over. As soon as we change anything, we'll catch hell for it. If we shrank the Defiant, a ton of people would come out of the woodwork telling us how tiny and insignificant it feels. Etc.
The engine is set up in feet, so yes, that's how things are built.
Well then...
Just give the Jem Ship some more Feet.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
One thing sure needs to be rescaled and thats Earth Spacedock.The damn thing is way to small compared to defiants and bug ships.
Not sure where I heard this, I believe it may have been a Dev. But apparently ESD does some scaling/forced perspective magic, so that for the most part, all ships appear to be able to fit through the docking bay doors.
ESD was created for ST:3, when TNG come they decided to reuse the model despite the fact the Enterprise-D was much larger.
Scale is correct.
This is correct. I don't have numbers handy, but at one point I did measure up ESD, and it is the size canon says it is. That puts it in proper scale with the Galaxy, even if the show showed it differently.
Hey Taco, you don't happen to know how big the in-game Romulan D'deridex-class warbird is compared to the Galaxy-class do you?
It is pretty close to Probert's original intent of 1300m.
And going forward, I'm not going to go measuring every ship against every other ship, so please don't ask. Things may be off in some ways, but by and large, ships are in scale with each other.
This is correct. I don't have numbers handy, but at one point I did measure up ESD, and it is the size canon says it is. That puts it in proper scale with the Galaxy, even if the show showed it differently.
It is pretty close to Probert's original intent of 1300m.
And going forward, I'm not going to go measuring every ship against every other ship, so please don't ask. Things may be off in some ways, but by and large, ships are in scale with each other.
Im curious why ya'll decided not to use the scale of the dreadnought seen at the end of DS:9 (battle of Cardassia) that clearly shows it several times larger than the "galaxy sized" jem'hadar cruiser
this pic shows the dread with a cruiser passing over its bow, you can clearly see that this ship is a hell of a lot bigger than the miniscule model in the game.
I for one was really disappointed you scaled it down so much.
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A positive out look would be to be thankful the game continued this far Size of scaling opinions to me takes a back seat to there still being STO to play.
Im curious why ya'll decided not to use the scale of the dreadnought seen at the end of DS:9 (battle of Cardassia) that clearly shows it several times larger than the "galaxy sized" jem'hadar cruiser
this pic shows the dread with a cruiser passing over its bow, you can clearly see that this ship is a hell of a lot bigger than the miniscule model in the game.
I for one was really disappointed you scaled it down so much.
Honestly, based on the .jpg and the clip - given the perspective (and you even have Bug ships flying through the video shot) -- there's no real hard evidence on screen that the Jem Dreadnought is. Just because you liked what you read from some non-canon (unless they displayed the specs in the shows) stat sheet - it doesn't make it correct.
Edited to add:
And if you look at this sequence (from the same compilation video you posted ) in looking at the size of the Galaxy Class firing on the Cardassian ship - you could make the arguement the Galaxy and Jem Dred are abiout the same size
(The video has Jem Dreds in other shots - and again, you could make a case they aren't as huge as you would like to imply. Again, the fact is - the producers weren't too concerned with scale in making these shots; they went for what looked good to them visually.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Im curious why ya'll decided not to use the scale of the dreadnought seen at the end of DS:9 (battle of Cardassia) that clearly shows it several times larger than the "galaxy sized" jem'hadar cruiser
this pic shows the dread with a cruiser passing over its bow, you can clearly see that this ship is a hell of a lot bigger than the miniscule model in the game.
I for one was really disappointed you scaled it down so much.
Though I would love to have the dreadnaught at that scale, the only reason as to why they decided against a ship of that size is the ability to block player access to certain locations, eg ds9. And in STFS, it would make other players life more difficult to have to maneuver around your ship.
Uh. . . wha? Not really what? What makes what ship feel samey?
I'm sorry people don't believe that things are accurate, but really, most stuff is pretty damn close (640m vs 637m for 1701-D for instance) The Defiant does not have a single canonical length. There is an accepted range, because it, more than most was shown in such drastically different scales depending on the shot needed for the show/movie. We are within that range. You may wish that it was on the smaller side of that range, but it is still within tolerances.
If there is time in the schedule, and reason to do so, some scales might be able to be looked at again, but in general, it's much harder to change the scale of something once it's out and being used all over. As soon as we change anything, we'll catch hell for it. If we shrank the Defiant, a ton of people would come out of the woodwork telling us how tiny and insignificant it feels. Etc.
The engine is set up in feet, so yes, that's how things are built.
Please take a second look at the Birds of Prey. They're HUGE. And unlike the fed ships, there is far less canon to worry about. Outside of the B'rel, I don't think I've seen any of them in a 'canon' source before. They're supposed to be small, but my Hegh'ta with its 100 crew is only a bit smaller than the Vorcha with 15 times the crew. Birds of Prey are SUPPOSED to be small, fast, stealthy.
I fully understand not wanting to change the Defiant. All the "primary" ships of a series will have significant emotional levels attached to them. But I think most people would be much happier if the BoP's were on the scale of the B'rel, rather than the Vorcha.
I think the BoPs suffer from a "Higher Tiers == Bigger Ships" issue. It's supposed to be that way Fed side, since the ships (outside of the Defiant) all both have more crew and more expected luxury. Back in Kirk's time, Fed crews didn't have spacious suites for quarters. So when you increase the crew and increase the amount of space needed per crew member, they get bigger in a hurry. But KDF doesn't go in for that. There's no reason for the ships to increase in size like the fed ships do.
One last parting thing: I have to congratulate you guys on the BoP designs. I really like the addition of external engines on the shoulders, especially. I fly my Hegh'ta with the Haj's upper and lower nacelles (but otherwise Hegh'ta), so it has nicely sized warp engines and the cannons hang from the wings like the classic B'rel. It's a great combination of that classic feel, but with more modern lines and actual warp engines. (It always annoyed me that too many of the non-fed ships even in Canon sources didn't have visible warp engines)
The outside is not really relevant, as I mentioned it was made for ST:3 and doors were just big enough for the Enterprise.
Then TNG come and they used it again, just used a smaller model of the Enterprise-D so it could fit the doors.
In STO the Galaxy can enter it, I believe even the Odyssey can enter it were the only ship that cannot enter it is the Atrox.
The Interior is a different subject, you say its "too huge" when I feel that in scale to were its suppose to be is actually too small, personally I would split it in smaller sections and use the turbolifts to move players around each section to hide the side of the station and to facilitate movement.
Something just occurred to me: Did the Galaxy-class Enterprise ever go into Spacedock? I don't recall ever seeing spacedock in the next generation. I remember it was in scaffolding, but not the spacedock that we saw in the Kirk movies.
The episode in TNG season 1 with the Byrans in had Ent-D in ESD. The bryans steal the 1701D due to the ship having the largest computer core so they can download there planets Main Computer into it.
Please take a second look at the Birds of Prey. They're HUGE. And unlike the fed ships, there is far less canon to worry about. Outside of the B'rel, I don't think I've seen any of them in a 'canon' source before. They're supposed to be small, but my Hegh'ta with its 100 crew is only a bit smaller than the Vorcha with 15 times the crew. Birds of Prey are SUPPOSED to be small, fast, stealthy.
I fully understand not wanting to change the Defiant. All the "primary" ships of a series will have significant emotional levels attached to them. But I think most people would be much happier if the BoP's were on the scale of the B'rel, rather than the Vorcha.
I think the BoPs suffer from a "Higher Tiers == Bigger Ships" issue. It's supposed to be that way Fed side, since the ships (outside of the Defiant) all both have more crew and more expected luxury. Back in Kirk's time, Fed crews didn't have spacious suites for quarters. So when you increase the crew and increase the amount of space needed per crew member, they get bigger in a hurry. But KDF doesn't go in for that. There's no reason for the ships to increase in size like the fed ships do.
One last parting thing: I have to congratulate you guys on the BoP designs. I really like the addition of external engines on the shoulders, especially. I fly my Hegh'ta with the Haj's upper and lower nacelles (but otherwise Hegh'ta), so it has nicely sized warp engines and the cannons hang from the wings like the classic B'rel. It's a great combination of that classic feel, but with more modern lines and actual warp engines. (It always annoyed me that too many of the non-fed ships even in Canon sources didn't have visible warp engines)
Exactly.
And Btw, my Hegh'ta is customised in very much the same way, nacelles and cannons of the Haj. (Was the first ship that I mismatched parts on, it just looked better that way.)
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Comments
It is even more funner that a bug ship can take out a carrier with its tiny little phew phew guns.
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Didn't you guys purposely make the Vesta class much smaller then it's known size because you didn't want it to be the proper size (about that of the Sovereign class) and able to fire cannons with its slightly better turn rate so it got shrunk down to about the Intrepid size. For some reason I remember reading a post from one of the devs and that was the excuse at the time when the Vesta was released on why its scale was made so much smaller then its known size. It would not have broke the game to have the Vesta be its correct size so hopefully someday we can have the Vesta size increased to what it should have been.
Well, I was alluding to the fact that these cannons on the hegh'ta (and most other BoPs, that are, however, smaller) are more visible and impressive than the Galaxy-X's spinal lance.
One would actually expect to wreak death and doom in whole enemy fleets with those cannons. It's just ridiculous to what degree most BoPs are oversized.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
in that case may i refer you to this thread?
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=523691
in short:
the new shiny Dominion Lobi Store Dreadnought is about one third smaller than it should be and i have linked documents copyrighted by Paramount with the scale numbers and everything.
I built a foundry mission (see sig) specifically for shuttles, and I still get reviews: "That was tight in my Excelsior."
Yet the Vesta is about 15% too small because Gozer thought it looked wrong for a big ship to be maneuverable enough to use cannons.
But not when you compare say a Defiant class to an Odyssey the scale is woefully off.
THe Defiant class is supposed to be only slightly larger than the Aquarius. I
ve parked my Defiant next to a deployed Aquarius, the scale is just flat wrong.
Not really. All it does is make the ships feel really samey. The Hegh'tah is big enough it could give the Excelsior a hug, and yet could dance circles around the latter. I'm supposed to be twice the size of K-7! The Galaxy is supposed to be utterly gargantuan, but when galavanting around the universe, I feel really small.
Sure everything was shown at different sizes, that comes from using different models for different shots, but everything has a size that most people agree on.
Also, Spacedock. It's supposedly capable of containing 8 Galaxy-Class sized ships. A Galaxy class can't even fit through the doors. :rolleyes:
Also, Canon sized shuttles DO exist in game. They fly around starbases! I can see them just fine.
And finally.... Imperial? Really? You make models according to Imperial? I am ashamed Taco.
I'm sorry people don't believe that things are accurate, but really, most stuff is pretty damn close (640m vs 637m for 1701-D for instance) The Defiant does not have a single canonical length. There is an accepted range, because it, more than most was shown in such drastically different scales depending on the shot needed for the show/movie. We are within that range. You may wish that it was on the smaller side of that range, but it is still within tolerances.
If there is time in the schedule, and reason to do so, some scales might be able to be looked at again, but in general, it's much harder to change the scale of something once it's out and being used all over. As soon as we change anything, we'll catch hell for it. If we shrank the Defiant, a ton of people would come out of the woodwork telling us how tiny and insignificant it feels. Etc.
The engine is set up in feet, so yes, that's how things are built.
Well then...
Just give the Jem Ship some more Feet.
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a D'deridex should drawrf even a scimitar
Scimitar: 890m long, 1350m wide
D'deridex: 1041.7m long, 772.4m wide
In other words: no.
Not sure where I heard this, I believe it may have been a Dev. But apparently ESD does some scaling/forced perspective magic, so that for the most part, all ships appear to be able to fit through the docking bay doors.
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This is correct. I don't have numbers handy, but at one point I did measure up ESD, and it is the size canon says it is. That puts it in proper scale with the Galaxy, even if the show showed it differently.
It is pretty close to Probert's original intent of 1300m.
And going forward, I'm not going to go measuring every ship against every other ship, so please don't ask. Things may be off in some ways, but by and large, ships are in scale with each other.
Im curious why ya'll decided not to use the scale of the dreadnought seen at the end of DS:9 (battle of Cardassia) that clearly shows it several times larger than the "galaxy sized" jem'hadar cruiser
this pic shows the dread with a cruiser passing over its bow, you can clearly see that this ship is a hell of a lot bigger than the miniscule model in the game.
http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GAdvance8.jpg
here is a youtube clip of the same scene, you can clearly see how F'ing big this thing really is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM-S1NU7Qw0&feature=youtu.be&t=11m24s
I for one was really disappointed you scaled it down so much.
Well guess vulcans can fit huge ships thgourh small gates using logic I guess
The outside is too small for ships and the inside is too huge/tall for any aliens /human.
Honestly, based on the .jpg and the clip - given the perspective (and you even have Bug ships flying through the video shot) -- there's no real hard evidence on screen that the Jem Dreadnought is. Just because you liked what you read from some non-canon (unless they displayed the specs in the shows) stat sheet - it doesn't make it correct.
Edited to add:
And if you look at this sequence (from the same compilation video you posted ) in looking at the size of the Galaxy Class firing on the Cardassian ship - you could make the arguement the Galaxy and Jem Dred are abiout the same size
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gM-S1NU7Qw0#t=394s
(The video has Jem Dreds in other shots - and again, you could make a case they aren't as huge as you would like to imply. Again, the fact is - the producers weren't too concerned with scale in making these shots; they went for what looked good to them visually.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Though I would love to have the dreadnaught at that scale, the only reason as to why they decided against a ship of that size is the ability to block player access to certain locations, eg ds9. And in STFS, it would make other players life more difficult to have to maneuver around your ship.
I fully understand not wanting to change the Defiant. All the "primary" ships of a series will have significant emotional levels attached to them. But I think most people would be much happier if the BoP's were on the scale of the B'rel, rather than the Vorcha.
I think the BoPs suffer from a "Higher Tiers == Bigger Ships" issue. It's supposed to be that way Fed side, since the ships (outside of the Defiant) all both have more crew and more expected luxury. Back in Kirk's time, Fed crews didn't have spacious suites for quarters. So when you increase the crew and increase the amount of space needed per crew member, they get bigger in a hurry. But KDF doesn't go in for that. There's no reason for the ships to increase in size like the fed ships do.
One last parting thing: I have to congratulate you guys on the BoP designs. I really like the addition of external engines on the shoulders, especially. I fly my Hegh'ta with the Haj's upper and lower nacelles (but otherwise Hegh'ta), so it has nicely sized warp engines and the cannons hang from the wings like the classic B'rel. It's a great combination of that classic feel, but with more modern lines and actual warp engines. (It always annoyed me that too many of the non-fed ships even in Canon sources didn't have visible warp engines)
Exactly.
And Btw, my Hegh'ta is customised in very much the same way, nacelles and cannons of the Haj.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!