Proposal for Tier 6 Ships -> Upgradable Tier 5 Ships

richardgross82

Preamble
I?m a bit concerned about what will happen to the ships when the level cap is raised ?
Will there be a complete line of new ships (Tier 6)? If yes, what will happen to the ships from the z-store and the lockboxes? Considering that many people have spent a lot time and/or money on these ships it would be pretty bad if they just become outdated.

Proposed solution
Instead of just introducing new Tier 6 ships I propose that Tier 5 ships can be upgraded to Tier 6 (in addition to new Tier 6 ships). This way ships from the z-store and the lockboxes would not become outdated. It would also allow players to use ships which are not very popular (because there are other more efficient ships) by upgrading them according to their individual needs.

Regarding the cost of the upgrade I would propose that the upgrade of a ship costs one fleet ship module or a similar token and that one token should be given to each character then the new level cap is reached. This would allow every player to have at least one Tier 6 ship - while additional Tier 6 would cost a reasonable amount of Zen/Dilithium

For the upgrades itself I propose that a few rules will be introduced to define in which way ships can be upgraded

Consoles
2 additional consoles can be added to each ship, but no more than 6 consoles of the same type are allowed.

Bridge officers
2 bridge officers can be upgraded, the ensign to lieutenant and one of the lieutenants to lieutenant commander.

Ship weapons
Each ship will get one additional forward weapon slot.

Ship energy bonus
The energy bonus for each ship is increased by 10. This bonus can be added weapons, shields, engine or aux, either +10 on one energy type or +5 on two energy types.

Ship hull, shield and engine
The ship hull and shields are upgrade by roughly 10% compared to tier 5.
In addition to that general upgrade, the player can choose to upgrade the hull by 10%, the shields by 10% or the turn rate by 2.


Examples:

The following examples illustrate how such ship upgrades could work. Please note that this are only 3 variants and that much more (hundreds) would be possible.

Example Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit:
Hull 33,000 --> 36,000 (general upgrade)
Shields 4,703 --> 5,200 (general upgrade) --> 5700 (additional bonus by players choice)
Turn rate 17
Weapons 4 / 3 --> 5 / 3
Bridge officers:
Commander tactical
Lieutenant commander tactical
Ensign tactical --> Lieutenant tactical
Lieutenant Science
Lieutenant Engineering --> Lieutenant commander engineering (by players choice)
Consoles
Tactical 5 --> 6 (by players choice)
Engineering 3 --> 4 (by players choice)
Science 2
Energy bonus
+15 weapons power --> +25 weapons power (by players choice)


Example Fleet Star Cruiser:

Hull 42,900 --> 47,200 (general upgrade)
Shields 5,748 --> 6,350 (general upgrade)
Turn rate 7 --> 9 (additional bonus by players choice)
Weapons 4 / 4 --> 5 / 4
Bridge officers:
Commander engineering
Lieutenant commander engineering
Lieutenant tactical --> Lieutenant commander tactical (by players choice)
Lieutenant science
Ensign science --> Lieutenant science
Consoles:
Engineering 4
Tactical 2 --> 4 (by players choice)
Science 4

Energy bonus
+5 to weapons power --> +15 to weapons power (by players choice)
+5 to shields power
+5 to engine power
+5 to aux power


Example Fleet Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit

Hull 29,700 --> 33,000 (general upgrade)
Shields 7,472 --> 8250 (general upgrade) --> 9,000 (additional bonus by players choice)
Turn rate 12
Weapons 3 / 3 --> 4 / 3
Bridge officers:
Commander science
Lieutenant commander science
Ensign science --> Lieutenant science
Lieutenant tactical
Lieutenant engineering --> Lieutenant commander engineering (by players choice)
Consoles:
Science 4 --> 6 (by players choice)
Engineering 3
Tactical 3

Energy bonus
+15 to aux power --> +25 to aux power (by players choice)

heresincebeta

Well when we make Fleet Admiral the presumption is that we will be able to use some of our other fitted ships (lower tier most likely) with our excess weapons and boffs. I'd like to see T6 ships be almost equal to T5 ships but gain 1 or more "command slots" to slot other ships into a squadron.

The increase from Fleet T5 to T6 should be no bigger than from T5 to Fleet T5.

But, as far as your example goes, what about ships that don't have an ensign slot (like the Vo'Quv)?

richardgross82

regarding the Vo'Quv

In this case we might think of giving that ship an additional boff (ensign) when it is upgraded to Tier 6.

chandlerashari

richardgross82 wrote: »

Preamble
Snip

This proposal is one way to do it that warrants discussion.

in general, really hope there would be a way to upgrade to Tier 6, at a reasonable cost (Cryps gotta keep the light on yknow )

I speculate that they pretty much have to as all the iconic ships of 2409 are tier 5 already (Odyssey, Vesta etc)

If i had it my way, there'd be no tier 6 and player admirals period.

but that boat has sailed as it were haha.

haravikk

I really don't want to see ships with 6 consoles of one type, specifically no escorts with six tactical consoles! Not unless they change how tactical consoles stack with one another, as it'll just widen the gap too far.


I do agree with upgrading, but I think that people have already purchased the tier V ship be allowed to upgrade to the tier VI upgrade ship for free, and make some of the tier V ships free (well, cost Dilithium with one for free when you reach tier V).

The Dreadnought Cruiser for example would make a decent option as one of the "free" tier V ships, but anyone that has purchased it deserves a Tier VI upgraded version. The Odyssey doesn't really need an upgrade IMO, maybe just move it into tier VI with some tweaks, since it seems more of a flag-ship than many other tier V options.

adamkafei

I think fleet ships should be exempt from any upgrades at the moment considering they are the present standard. What you are proposing would allow me to have yet another damage boosting skill on my fleet Excelsior as well as giving me level 3 hazard emitters opening a slot for polarise hull which combined with putting the +10 power into aux and putting in appropriate consoles I could not only do yet more damage but I can make it potentially indestructible.

As much as I would enjoy having something that powerful I am not going to ask for an uber-celsior.

seekerkorhil

For arguments sake im going to make an incredibly OP escort using your suggestions:

Example Fleet Heavy Escort Carrier:
Hull Whatever (general upgrade)
Shields Whatever (general upgrade)
Turn rate 15 --> 17
Weapons 4 / 3 --> 5 / 3
Bridge officers:
Commander tactical
Lieutenant tactical -->Lieutenant commander tactical
Ensign tactical --> Lieutenant tactical
Lieutenant Science
Lieutenant Commander Engineering
Consoles:
Tactical 4 -->5 (by players choice)
Engineering 3 --> 4 (by players choice)
Science 3
Energy bonus:
+10 weapons power, +5 engine power --> +15 weapons power, +5 engine power, +5 shield power (by players choice)
Hanger: Elite Scorpion Fighters

I would fly this ship forever.

ajstoner

For all intensive purposes we already have Tier 6 ships: Fleet ships and the VA C-Store ships are a little better than any of the free tier 5 ships. New ships should simply be more of the same but with a higher level requirement to "distinguish" them. Making ships that people have spent real money on useless is not the way to go.

anazonda

I tend to agree with OP.

If Cryptic want's to kill the game off, the solution is to release a new Tier of ships without the option to upgrade current ships for no extra Cryptic Store charge... (yes... C-Store ships will have to be upgrade-able for free, and that includes Fleet ships).

It would kill the game, drive away whatever core players they have and probably damage their (Cryptic and PWE) reputation for a very very long time.

Because come on... We all know that T6 ships would be 100% C-Store.

starkaos

I don't think upgradability is possible. Look at how they did the fleet ships. You had to buy them using Fleet Credits and Fleet Ship Modules. We couldn't do some task on the Starbase to have them upgraded to Fleet Status. I believe it is how the ships are modeled. All the bridge officer slots, console slots, and other stats like shield modifier and hull are permanent. So the devs can change the stats, but it would change the stats for every ship of that particular design. To have a completely identical ship with different stats, they need to design a completely new ship.

richardgross82

For arguments sake im going to make an incredibly OP escort using your suggestions:

Example Fleet Heavy Escort Carrier:
Hull Whatever (general upgrade)
Shields Whatever (general upgrade)
Turn rate 15 --> 17
Weapons 4 / 3 --> 5 / 3
Bridge officers:
Commander tactical
Lieutenant tactical -->Lieutenant commander tactical
Ensign tactical --> Lieutenant tactical
Lieutenant Science
Lieutenant Commander Engineering
Consoles:
Tactical 4 -->5 (by players choice)
Engineering 3 --> 4 (by players choice)
Science 3
Energy bonus:
+10 weapons power, +5 engine power --> +15 weapons power, +5 engine power, +5 shield power (by players choice)
Hanger: Elite Scorpion Fighters

I would fly this ship forever.

I think you miss the point ...

Yes, that ship would be very powerfull - but it would not be the only one, since every (Tier 5) ship could be upgraded the same way. In the end it would be pretty much like situation we have now - only with much more variants and more individual builds. So yes, there might be even tanks even more resilient and damage-dealers with even more firepower, but everybody would have the change to go that way.

lianthelia

We don't need tier 6 ships plain and simple.

kamiyama317

I think Fleet Ships and C-Store T5 ships should be the best pilot-able ships in the game. However if they do rank increase to full Admiral it would be nice to get a squadron where we could take another ship or two with us, and stick one of our Bridge Officers on them as its captain.

kapla1755

hmm I think this is an interesting idea BUT,
as i understand from what devs have said 4/4 is the game engine weapon limit, could be wrong there.
I can't see user customizable boff/console layouts happening either, think about it this way server has to store the extra info and do additional calculations for each new "custom" player layout and we think server lag is bad now.
However I think it could be done if each tier 5 ship was offered in a 3 option layout like the vesta/oddy bundle same ships but slightly different layouts, but that would involve a lot of development time to keep things relatively balanced.

Honestly would prefer they introduced some new ships and ship types (ex...destroyer class), KDF costumes, new playable species, new ground weapon types, (where is the naussican energy weapon we see in Treasure trading station), pre-order consoles/items available as a bundle pack (maybe have some items level with player like the tholian sword/Crystalline shield does).

starkaos

My opinion of Tier 6 ships is that they will be dreadnought level ships like the Typhoon and Jupiter. So it could include carriers with 3 or 4 hangars and other interesting combinations. The Tier 6 ships can only be commanded by Admirals while your other Tier 5 ships can be commanded by your former Bridge Officers. I can see Tier 5 ships having a Tier 6 version, but it would utilize something similar to the Fleet Ship system. So no slot customization. If you want a Tier 6 Galaxy, then you have the same exact same ship as every other person with a Tier 6 Galaxy.

lordgyor

I agree that the Tier Six Ships will be Dreadnaughts. The Typhoon, Orion Warbarge, and so on.

I do think that they'll be able to upgrade your tier 5 ships.

Example to buy a Fleet Corsair you need 4 fleet modules or a Corsair Retrofit (which is a free ship, costs no Zen only fleet credits) and 1 Fleet Module. To upgrade to a Dreadnaught Corsair you'd need 4 Dreadnaught modules or 1 Dreadnaught module and a Fleet Corsair. So in a sense you'd be able to upgrade.

Heck you could even do so for free as I hear there are Fleet Modules on the Exchange for EC, I could see Dreadnaught Modules on the Exchange as well.

As to what Dreadnaughts would get I think what would be cool is extra shields, extra Hull, and a Universal Captain Bridge Officer Slot, and upgrade a Lt. commander to commander, and gaining one or two Dreadnaught Console slots for special dreadnaught consoles which could be a special dreadnaught weapon console, a extra hangar, or other cool consoles.

adabisi

I feel that ships have pretty much met their zenith , in terms of how much power slots and skills they provide.

What is left? Adding more powers to the captain..err well Full admiral or KDF equivalent.

I do not anticipate enjoying a sci vessel that has 3 tac slot or 5 eng slots..the balancing just becomes a nightmare.


Just create more Admiral skills. People are concerned that previous skills will become obsolete....nah..just higher versions of the same old TRIBBLE we have had since days long gone.


Some highly anticipated Admiral skills...

1 Summon Secretary for a cup of coffee 1

2. Cancel meeting as you are too busy 1

3. Make someone else do your paperwork 1

4. Give a lecture at SF academy 1.

5. Sit in GO on your Flaghip 1


these are all importnd Admiral skills

skyranger1414

lianthelia wrote: »

We don't need tier 6 ships plain and simple.

There was also no need to the +1 ships, T5, Fleet, lockbox and Lobi level ships, not to mention Mk 12 level gear... and yet here we are. What Cryptic likes to do is release gear upgrades and tweak the Borg to match.

They need to keep selling stuff and nothing is cheaper than reusing art assets... again. I think upgrading current ships would be preferable to whole new ships if only because people can keep the ships they have grown to love.

starkaos

Yeah some of us have joked that endgame will be bureaucracy where you trade in your ships for an office. Doing various bureaucratic missions will award you with paintings, plants, sculptures, light fixtures, and improved desks and chairs. I am just glad that bureaucracy is a very minor point in this game with duty officer assignments and not realistic when we reach a certain rank.

lordgyor

My idea of special dreadnaught consoles and dreadnaught console slots would allow the kind of customization that the OP talks about plus adding other customization options.

So you could say give a ship 1 Dreadnaught Slot and you could choose from say a Dreadnaught Megacannon console which would be a special weapon, a Ship Transporter Console which would allow you to move an enemy ship once every two minutes, or a Quantum Singularity Console which would give a temporary boosts to Weapon, Shields, Engines, and AUX. Or you could choose to slot in a Hangar instead of a Dreadnaught Console if the ship is a carrier or carrier hybrid.

collegepark2151

Maybe just rename the current T-5 ships "T-6" and bump up the lower levels accordingly. The only Tier 1 ship would be the Miranda/B'rel. No actual skill/weapon changes involved, just a re-organizing. People would only be on Tier 1 for a couple of days anyway.

twg042370

Characters need to expand out, not up. Missions to increase the oomph of your ship are fine with me. Like having your skills being put to use somehow. Tagging space rabbits for two months so you can buy a thing in the store that will upgrade your Majestic to handle new mobs isn't. That's something an Ensign can do.

I have six levels in shield emitters. Lets do something with that. Missions about inventing more powerful shields. If I had nine levels my success rate would be near 100%. Like that.

marshalericdavid

I don't want to see a new tier of ships and new tier of equipment. New levels and rank should just add new missions and a single new space and ground ability at most that's it.

robdmc

I personally thought the current fleet level ships were the equivalent to t6. t5 ships are ra ships like the assault cruiser or the advance escort. when you compare them to the fleet version they look obsolete.

markarich

I agree with the previous 2 posters.... It's time Cryptic starts focusing on new missions and content. Why does one need new ships(other than possibly PvP), has the STO universe gotten any more difficult in the past year?? There hasn't been a new enemy in years. Flying a "tier 6" ship in this static universe is like shooting pigeons with an Barrett M82A3 50 cal.

starkaos

Eventually we are going to be Admirals and we need Command ships and Admiral like activity. Piloting a single ship that we can pilot since we were a Rear Admiral is not enough. Admiral should mean a new level of gameplay that is not present with the current game.

marshalericdavid

starkaos wrote: »

Eventually we are going to be Admirals and we need Command ships and Admiral like activity. Piloting a single ship that we can pilot since we were a Rear Admiral is not enough. Admiral should mean a new level of gameplay that is not present with the current game.

New story missions that require admiral rank and you chose 1 ship to be your flagship and have 4 others along your side (the space version of away team). New STF's that are in the PvE list. Random distress calls your fleet can respond to. Even adding some new STF that it is just you and your personal fleet maybe? New ability to call your fleet for assistance in non fleet missions.

whamhammer1

kapla1755 wrote: »

hmm I think this is an interesting idea BUT,
as i understand from what devs have said 4/4 is the game engine weapon limit, could be wrong there.
I can't see user customizable boff/console layouts happening either, think about it this way server has to store the extra info and do additional calculations for each new "custom" player layout and we think server lag is bad now.
However I think it could be done if each tier 5 ship was offered in a 3 option layout like the vesta/oddy bundle same ships but slightly different layouts, but that would involve a lot of development time to keep things relatively balanced.

Honestly would prefer they introduced some new ships and ship types (ex...destroyer class), KDF costumes, new playable species, new ground weapon types, (where is the naussican energy weapon we see in Treasure trading station), pre-order consoles/items available as a bundle pack (maybe have some items level with player like the tholian sword/Crystalline shield does).

That would be pretty sad if the game engines limit is 4/4, especially since the rearward weapons choices are pretty narrow and weak. I would almost thin that, at this point, they would have to use a new level of weapons that are specialized for each class of ship to take them to the next level.

hravik

We've been flat out told by devs (Gecko I think?) that we can't just add slots to the paper dolls. (paper doll in this case refers to the ship / character equipment or boff slots)

The engine is just not capable of doing so without some major changes. So if a ship has 4/4 weapon slots, that is all it can ever have short of a dev making a brand new and separate entry on whatever database they use for ships. That's all they did with fleet / retrofit ships, took an old model and attached a new stat sheet to the model as a separate entry.

Some of the other stuff, like extra hull, power levels, etc could probably be done via skill points in some way. Just add extra hull or whatever at a flat rate for X amount of points, but I doubt they could tie it to one specific ship.

However, for myself, I'm far more in favor of using all the extra ships I have in my stable as sort of an away team in space. Full admirals do command fleets and task forces after all, not just a single ship. Perhaps they could allow one ship of each tier below T5. This lets people still have a use for their favorite ships at end game (maybe a way to sneak TOS ships in the back door?) and give people an extra incentive to buy those +1 ships that aren't T5. Not to mention all the extra dilithium expenditure to have all those ships equipped with the best goodies at the same time.

starkaos

I wonder if the restraints of the current system can be bypassed with consoles. Have a console that adds two console slots or weapon slots or bridge officer slots. It has been established that the base stats can't be changed so upgradable ships are not possible, but upgrade consoles as an option has not been mentioned by the devs AFAIK.

whamhammer1

starkaos wrote: »

I wonder if the restraints of the current system can be bypassed with consoles. Have a console that adds two console slots or weapon slots or bridge officer slots. It has been established that the base stats can't be changed so upgradable ships are not possible, but upgrade consoles as an option has not been mentioned by the devs AFAIK.

That's kind of what I was thinking of. We have consoles that more or less act as weapons. Why not make T6 have extra console slots and sell uni "weapon consoles" that are on par with the respective "Mk" level for the Tier 6 ships? The consoles can be designated Front Arc or Rear Arc like the TOS Connies blue Phaser Beam Arrays.