I haven't encountered any instance in PvE where I have found the mines to be that over-powered. Yes, they do hurt gates but that is a part of what makes them useful. if this is the reason, you have missed the point in how you approached the problem and by doing so, taken another useful weapon out of the players hamds fpr ,pre generic setups. Give the gates a 20% resistance instead of stripping the mines of their usefulness. Gravity Weell and mines makes for a good tactic in my opinion also. It's not for everyone but it's for people who fly Science ships. Perhaps a solution to this in PvE is figuring out a way to make the AI in this game more intelligent instead of always blaming the weapon. Can you tell me why the Borg Cutting Beam got such a significant boost? Try that thing ona gate and all of a sudden the mines aren't so bad. Such a lack of thought went into the changes and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Damage after the healing units are dead is not what Cryptic dislikes. They dislike that you can one shot kill the lesser health objectives like Cure Cubes and Infected and KA transformers while their healing nodes are still alive.
Yes, it circumvents the progression Cryptic designed into these scenarios, but it requires investment (more Boffs with different skills, depending on your account status, this may require buying more boff slots; Also, requires high quality gear [such as full up on Purple Trico Consoles and certain Doffs]) and more than average knowledge of the game to do.
Many of the 5-man bosses in WoW's Cataclysm expansion could be soloed by a Death Knight; This wasn't because the DK was OP, but because very good players could use it to great effect against those bosses. Blizzard didn't stamp this out because they knew that it wasn't something everybody could do, and left it in.
I feel that if you're good enough to know how to Trico One shot STF targets, and invest in the all the items necessary to do it, you should be able to do it.
For the next time then, you might want to put upcoming changes to X ability/item in the General Feedback forum and not the PvP forum specifically (as was the case with these Tricobalt changes).
I have to respectfully tell you that it was a mistake to put it in the PvP forum in the first place (it's how "ear of the devs" rumors get started).
I concur. If you want PvE feedback, make sure to ask for PvE feedback instead of a PvP one. It's not easy to know what you have in mind and it's not realistic to expect us to provide feedback without any request on every single aspect of the game. Especially if you want feedback from experienced players, since they are a minority.
Damage after the healing units are dead is not what Cryptic dislikes. They dislike that you can one shot kill the lesser health objectives like Cure Cubes and Infected and KA transformers while their healing nodes are still alive.
Yes, it circumvents the progression Cryptic designed into these scenarios, but it requires investment (more Boffs with different skills, depending on your account status, this may require buying more boff slots; Also, requires high quality gear [such as full up on Purple Trico Consoles and certain Doffs]) and more than average knowledge of the game to do.
Many of the 5-man bosses in WoW's Cataclysm expansion could be soloed by a Death Knight; This wasn't because the DK was OP, but because very good players could use it to great effect against those bosses. Blizzard didn't stamp this out because they knew that it wasn't something everybody could do, and left it in.
I feel that if you're good enough to know how to Trico One shot STF targets, and invest in the all the items necessary to do it, you should be able to do it.
Maybe this just reflects me but I don't have any builds that one-shot things and so on. For me, that takes the fun out of things. I have some builds that vary acrosss different toons that I would call effective but don't take the fun out of elite. if you take the challenge away from the game, it gets boring really fast! The same goes for PvP and why I pretty much exclusively PvP with casual players. It's about having fun for me, not who wins or loses. It does however get old having to start over on builds with every season or incoming mass-nerfing due to a lack of thinking.
I concur. If you want PvE feedback, make sure to ask for PvE feedback instead of a PvP one. It's not easy to know what you have in mind and it's not realistic to expect us to provide feedback without any request on every single aspect of the game. Especially if you want feedback from experienced players, since they are a minority.
See this, Bort? You went to the wrong group for imput. When you say you want player feedback, don't go running to your fleet and PvP for it. Ask the players that play what you are thinking of changing instead. If you really think balance in this game is important. You have to stop cherry picking your sources for feedback!
I concur. If you want PvE feedback, make sure to ask for PvE feedback instead of a PvP one. It's not easy to know what you have in mind and it's not realistic to expect us to provide feedback without any request on every single aspect of the game. Especially if you want feedback from experienced players, since they are a minority.
As soon as they don't put things in PvP forums, then the PvP'ers will claim that it's the PvE'ers that "have the devs ear", and that they (the PvP'ers) are being ignored (again/still/whatever).
With a good build killing an elite cube (not a tac one) takes 20 seconds or so. No need to use mines here.
Unless the Romulan/Omega torps are doing stupendous amounts of damage, I'm going to say that your estimate of 20s is inaccurate.
Let's ignore shielding for a moment, and simply assume an Elite Tac cube has approximately 1.5 million hull points.
It would take 75,000 damage per second for a full 20s to deal 1.5 million hull damage in 20s.
Now I'm not going to say that it's outright impossible, but without Tricobalt mines I'm going to state that's extremely unlikely to do this - ever - and there is an infinitesimally small chance any "cannons and torps" build able to do this on a regular basis.
This was using FOMM, APB 1, DPB 3, HYT 2, CRF 2, APA, GDF, Tac Fleet with MK XII Trico Torp CrtHx3, MK XII Trico Mines CrtHx3, Guramba Javelin.
Basically, all the big stuff crit, the Javelin Crit, the mines crit and the HYT Trico torp crit.
I suppose its possible to squeeze a bit more out with a BO & DBB and a higher version of HYT - but I still don't see anyone doing this on a regular basis with "just cannons and torps".
First, I'd like to state for the record that no Fleet in STO has the 'ear' of the Systems Team, which is in charge of power tuning and balance for both PvE and PvP. That said, I believe it's fairly common sense why the PvP community as a whole would be an invaluable asset to the continued balance of any MMO, considering that NPCs as a whole are extremely unlikely to submit feedback about imbalances that may evolve during gameplay.
Tricobalt Mines were changed (and are still being reviewed for further adjustments) primarily due to PvE concerns, not PvP. Mines are relatively easy to counter in a PvP environment under most circumstances, but the tactics used to do so are not generally available to our NPCs.
Okay, if you want to say this, fine. I could dig up most of the posts that suggest otherwise, but whatever.
Specifically, we have come to realize that some of the most difficult content in STO was being destroyed in a matter of seconds using nothing other than Tricobalt Mines. No grand tactics, no difficult maneuvering or careful teamwork. Just TRIBBLE out a few Dispersal Patterns and wait for the victory march. Not only is this "tactic" pretty cheap, it also circumvents the concept of overcoming the challenges that make these encounters more engaging and psychologically satisfying to overcome. In essence, players using Tricobalt Mines in this manner are diminishing their own experiencing, and that of their teammates.
This concern hasn't been fully addressed, and players are likely to see further changes to Tricobalt Mines in the future. But during our initial pass, we determined that a number of small tweaks could immediately be made that might help matters, while we attempt to address the larger issue.
First, I would like to introduce you to a thing known as an escort. If you put 3 to 4 duel heavy cannons up front and three turrets in back, maybe a torp to taste, with the right skills, you can do pretty much the exact same amount of damage in pretty much the same amout of time as a ship with a few tri mines in the back. Particularly on such targets as stationary or near stationary as the borg. I have seen, personally, an armitage with dual cannons, fighters, and at least part of the omega set handle BOTH SIDES of KASE probes, and he would have gotten the optional for us if he didn't have an unlucky disconnect. Even so, he only let one slip through. Even when I flew an average escort, I could blow pretty much anything a tricobalt spread could, probably even better than a mine spread could sometimes since I can target cannons. And I suck at this game compared to a lot of others. So, if you are saying that Tricobalt mines make the end game content too easy, maybe you should nerf escorts as well, since they are a cheap tactic that requires no teamwork etc etc etc.
Second, please do not assume that you know what I or anyone else might find psychologically satisfying. I don't believe you are qualified, unless you have a PhD in mental health or some such? Also, I don't believe you are evaulating the player base accurately. Even though I am as unlearned as I assume you are in this field, I think that the fact that the most popular missions for earning dilithium in this game are short mindless foundry missions with absolutely no chalenge at all seems to indicate that the average player likes easy stuff, not harder.
I guess I'm repeating things said before, but I just saw this thread post, so forgiv eme for jumping on late.
I meant it's easier to kill a cube with a regular cannon/torp build instead of mines. With a good build killing an elite cube (not a tac one) takes 20 seconds or so. No need to use mines here.
I'm not talking about the ISE starting Cube, or the Cubes above ISE and KASE Transformers, I'm talking about the ones in CSE; The ones that have 3 nodes that fully heal it in one tick. Those require spike damage if you want to skip killing the healing nodes.
Maybe this just reflects me but I don't have any builds that one-shot things and so on.
It doesn't matter what you're doing, it matters what can be done. It is possible to One Shot the big health targets without killing its mega healing nodes. That's why Trico Mines got reduced (and may get reduced further). Which, IMO, is not fair, as it requires serious investment (for me, I think I spent close to 100M EC setting up my build; That's for a Temporal Destroyer, 4 Purple 12 Trico Consoles, 3 Ultra Rare Battery Doffs [for +30% damage on use of a weapons battery], and a boff with DPB 3). That and many trial runs getting the timing right. I had several dud runs because I botched the order and quickness of setting up my buffs, or I deployed mines at an odd angle, and didn't get all 4 to deliver their damage simultaneously (which allowed for a healing tick between the 2 damage spikes).
I'll agree this isn't a fair change. I mean people like atatassault (love that one by the way) blew tones of in game resources to build up this one specific build and this is all it does, kills stationary targets, and only if the timing is right.
I also question Cryptic's value of balance. I believe that if Tricobalt mines came fromt he Lobi store, they wouldn't be touched at all.
Unless the Romulan/Omega torps are doing stupendous amounts of damage, I'm going to say that your estimate of 20s is inaccurate.
Let's ignore shielding for a moment, and simply assume an Elite Tac cube has approximately 1.5 million hull points.
It would take 75,000 damage per second for a full 20s to deal 1.5 million hull damage in 20s.
Now I'm not going to say that it's outright impossible, but without Tricobalt mines I'm going to state that's extremely unlikely to do this - ever - and there is an infinitesimally small chance any "cannons and torps" build able to do this on a regular basis.
This was using FOMM, APB 1, DPB 3, HYT 2, CRF 2, APA, GDF, Tac Fleet with MK XII Trico Torp CrtHx3, MK XII Trico Mines CrtHx3, Guramba Javelin.
Basically, all the big stuff crit, the Javelin Crit, the mines crit and the HYT Trico torp crit.
I suppose its possible to squeeze a bit more out with a BO & DBB and a higher version of HYT - but I still don't see anyone doing this on a regular basis with "just cannons and torps".
Actually it's a bit more than torps + cannons but it was a shortcut and i didn't mean to be hiding stuff. I've been able to do that with a DHC recluse build with advanced peregrines and a bunch of sci abilities (before the nerf of TBR). Pets can deal a fair amount of damage on unshielded and slow targets. Also add the fact that the cube can take -20% or so from his own HY torp when it hits you if you are at 0km, and you get the general idea. Really, no need to use mines to kill elite cubes. Those targets are pathetic enough.
It takes more time with an escort ship, especially if you don't use the HY torp trick but i think you'll figure out that it's perfectly doable.
Comments
Yes, it circumvents the progression Cryptic designed into these scenarios, but it requires investment (more Boffs with different skills, depending on your account status, this may require buying more boff slots; Also, requires high quality gear [such as full up on Purple Trico Consoles and certain Doffs]) and more than average knowledge of the game to do.
Many of the 5-man bosses in WoW's Cataclysm expansion could be soloed by a Death Knight; This wasn't because the DK was OP, but because very good players could use it to great effect against those bosses. Blizzard didn't stamp this out because they knew that it wasn't something everybody could do, and left it in.
I feel that if you're good enough to know how to Trico One shot STF targets, and invest in the all the items necessary to do it, you should be able to do it.
I concur. If you want PvE feedback, make sure to ask for PvE feedback instead of a PvP one. It's not easy to know what you have in mind and it's not realistic to expect us to provide feedback without any request on every single aspect of the game. Especially if you want feedback from experienced players, since they are a minority.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Maybe this just reflects me but I don't have any builds that one-shot things and so on. For me, that takes the fun out of things. I have some builds that vary acrosss different toons that I would call effective but don't take the fun out of elite. if you take the challenge away from the game, it gets boring really fast! The same goes for PvP and why I pretty much exclusively PvP with casual players. It's about having fun for me, not who wins or loses. It does however get old having to start over on builds with every season or incoming mass-nerfing due to a lack of thinking.
See this, Bort? You went to the wrong group for imput. When you say you want player feedback, don't go running to your fleet and PvP for it. Ask the players that play what you are thinking of changing instead. If you really think balance in this game is important. You have to stop cherry picking your sources for feedback!
As soon as they don't put things in PvP forums, then the PvP'ers will claim that it's the PvE'ers that "have the devs ear", and that they (the PvP'ers) are being ignored (again/still/whatever).
Raptr profile
Unless the Romulan/Omega torps are doing stupendous amounts of damage, I'm going to say that your estimate of 20s is inaccurate.
Let's ignore shielding for a moment, and simply assume an Elite Tac cube has approximately 1.5 million hull points.
It would take 75,000 damage per second for a full 20s to deal 1.5 million hull damage in 20s.
Now I'm not going to say that it's outright impossible, but without Tricobalt mines I'm going to state that's extremely unlikely to do this - ever - and there is an infinitesimally small chance any "cannons and torps" build able to do this on a regular basis.
Here's a snapshot of my guramba doing 1 million points of damage dealt in 17.9 seconds.
This was using FOMM, APB 1, DPB 3, HYT 2, CRF 2, APA, GDF, Tac Fleet with MK XII Trico Torp CrtHx3, MK XII Trico Mines CrtHx3, Guramba Javelin.
Basically, all the big stuff crit, the Javelin Crit, the mines crit and the HYT Trico torp crit.
I suppose its possible to squeeze a bit more out with a BO & DBB and a higher version of HYT - but I still don't see anyone doing this on a regular basis with "just cannons and torps".
Okay, if you want to say this, fine. I could dig up most of the posts that suggest otherwise, but whatever.
First, I would like to introduce you to a thing known as an escort. If you put 3 to 4 duel heavy cannons up front and three turrets in back, maybe a torp to taste, with the right skills, you can do pretty much the exact same amount of damage in pretty much the same amout of time as a ship with a few tri mines in the back. Particularly on such targets as stationary or near stationary as the borg. I have seen, personally, an armitage with dual cannons, fighters, and at least part of the omega set handle BOTH SIDES of KASE probes, and he would have gotten the optional for us if he didn't have an unlucky disconnect. Even so, he only let one slip through. Even when I flew an average escort, I could blow pretty much anything a tricobalt spread could, probably even better than a mine spread could sometimes since I can target cannons. And I suck at this game compared to a lot of others. So, if you are saying that Tricobalt mines make the end game content too easy, maybe you should nerf escorts as well, since they are a cheap tactic that requires no teamwork etc etc etc.
Second, please do not assume that you know what I or anyone else might find psychologically satisfying. I don't believe you are qualified, unless you have a PhD in mental health or some such? Also, I don't believe you are evaulating the player base accurately. Even though I am as unlearned as I assume you are in this field, I think that the fact that the most popular missions for earning dilithium in this game are short mindless foundry missions with absolutely no chalenge at all seems to indicate that the average player likes easy stuff, not harder.
I guess I'm repeating things said before, but I just saw this thread post, so forgiv eme for jumping on late.
Nouveau riche LTS member
I also question Cryptic's value of balance. I believe that if Tricobalt mines came fromt he Lobi store, they wouldn't be touched at all.
Nouveau riche LTS member
Actually it's a bit more than torps + cannons but it was a shortcut and i didn't mean to be hiding stuff. I've been able to do that with a DHC recluse build with advanced peregrines and a bunch of sci abilities (before the nerf of TBR). Pets can deal a fair amount of damage on unshielded and slow targets. Also add the fact that the cube can take -20% or so from his own HY torp when it hits you if you are at 0km, and you get the general idea. Really, no need to use mines to kill elite cubes. Those targets are pathetic enough.
It takes more time with an escort ship, especially if you don't use the HY torp trick but i think you'll figure out that it's perfectly doable.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.