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dontdrunkimshoot
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right now im trying to imagine a game with no DHCs. it sounds.... much easier to balance. the front loaded damage those cause, out side of a successful torp strike to hull, in an anomaly in game. the way they deal thier damage at the begining of the fireing cycle, an quickly give back the energy tey took after then fire, make all your other weapons fire at more healthy energy level, keeping their damage higher. you only need about a second of on target time for them to do thier entire buisness, were BCs need to point for 4 whole seconds, and hog their energy that whole time. its also stupid easy to use them, point ship, hit CRF, deal large spike. with no team support, quite often 4 DHC can pretty much steam roller anything that isn't a heal boat. it would be really interesting to see a couple of premades swap to DCs for some matches and see how it goes. they might not be able to kill anybody.
what to do about that? nerf them? of buff everything else? nerfing DHCs with how powerful healing is right now would be game breaking, no the option that would take more work is needed. but not that much more work really.
also, i have major gripes about beam arrays. one of my characters often uses a single cannon fleet excelsior, the thing is basically an A10 warthog when tac buffed. the other day i dusted off my acc2, crtH1 beam arrays to give them a shot, been a wile since i had used beam arrays at all. i could not have been more disappointed in them. they were pathetic, even on a cruiser with a LTC tac station backed by 4 tac consoles. i was fireing BO3 and cycling APB every 15 seconds, and using DEM3 at its global and it was still pathetic compared to single cannons.
from what i parsed, i was only dealing about 700-1500 dps with them, maxing at 5k dps in a red alert. wile my singles get anywhere between 1500-2000 dps in pvp, and almost 10k in pve. DEM3 dealt only about 6-9% of my total damage with beams, but between 12-17% with single cannons. the only good thing about beams is that i could use BO3 as a 3k to 9k damage closer, the singles lack a closer but tend to leave someone in such a bad way so quickly that a little burst from someone else is more then enough to kill them.
i really couldn't have done more to make beam arrays more effective, other then use a ship i could slot APO3 on, they were just worthless at dealing damage unless i have about 3 minutes with something alone. fed cruisers turn so damn slow, that this is basically their only weapon. and the finest tactical cruiser the feds have couldn't make them do anything of note. i could jump in a kdf cruiser and be a fat escort though easily, they can turn at a usable measure and use weapons that actually do something. thats the cruiser effectiveness baseline as far as im concerned, theres no reason for fed cruisers to be 1/3 as effective at dealing damage.
keep your 'cruisers are not damage dealer' arguments to your self, they are, when they arent being support boats. high end DEM and high end EWP can be used to hilarious effect, rivaling escort damage, being able to slot multiple holds along with plenty of heals, and on a single cannon excelsior having basically no end to on target up time. im not saying an odyssey or star cruiser should be as dangerous as a vorcha, but a regent or excelsior should be.
im not advocating raising all fed cruiser turn rates to 10 and letting them use DHCs, something more IP friendly and different would be better. first, the fireing rate and look beams have when you use FAW should be the new normal. that alone might be enough of a boost to their DPS, their lazy rate of fire is one of their biggest problems, along with not having a CRF equivalent. it also makes DEM suck with beams, hardly doing anything. CRF is a gigantic buff to cannon damage and effectiveness, honestly too great of a buff, but everything's sort of balanced around that so oh well. FAW is terrible and turns 95% acc beams into 75% acc garbage that spreads its damage harmlessly over any target in range. ether make beam arrays fire at FAW speed naturally, or make FAW a single target, accurate ability.
single cannons look exactly like turrets, this is bad for recognition. i have heard devs say they want things to be visually distinctive so the player knows what they are dealing with, well this is a case were they have failed at doing that. luckily, theres an easy solution. there is already an in game programing asset for a heavy single cannon, borg tac cubes use it, it looks like a single barrel DHC shot, has a DHC like firing cycle, and in the combat log appears as a 'heavy plasma cannon'. replace single cannons with these heavy cannons and they would be GREAT weapons. they would have DHC style front loaded damage, but less of it with more arc. could probably keep the dps the same, or raise it a bit to compensate for beam array's now higher DPS.
oh i might as well mention DCs. give them a 90 degree firing arc, and have them drain 8 energy and they would be worthy of consideration. i'm serious.
DBBs could get a similar treatment that beam arrays got, or not. their purpose is to deliver BOs, thats it. singles with CFR out damage DBBs so bad its embarrassing. use singles in number, not DBBs
cant complain about turrets, though right now im positive that an 8 turret excelsior with a cannons skill at its global would out damage any 8 beam array build. beams are that bad right now.
what to do about that? nerf them? of buff everything else? nerfing DHCs with how powerful healing is right now would be game breaking, no the option that would take more work is needed. but not that much more work really.
also, i have major gripes about beam arrays. one of my characters often uses a single cannon fleet excelsior, the thing is basically an A10 warthog when tac buffed. the other day i dusted off my acc2, crtH1 beam arrays to give them a shot, been a wile since i had used beam arrays at all. i could not have been more disappointed in them. they were pathetic, even on a cruiser with a LTC tac station backed by 4 tac consoles. i was fireing BO3 and cycling APB every 15 seconds, and using DEM3 at its global and it was still pathetic compared to single cannons.
from what i parsed, i was only dealing about 700-1500 dps with them, maxing at 5k dps in a red alert. wile my singles get anywhere between 1500-2000 dps in pvp, and almost 10k in pve. DEM3 dealt only about 6-9% of my total damage with beams, but between 12-17% with single cannons. the only good thing about beams is that i could use BO3 as a 3k to 9k damage closer, the singles lack a closer but tend to leave someone in such a bad way so quickly that a little burst from someone else is more then enough to kill them.
i really couldn't have done more to make beam arrays more effective, other then use a ship i could slot APO3 on, they were just worthless at dealing damage unless i have about 3 minutes with something alone. fed cruisers turn so damn slow, that this is basically their only weapon. and the finest tactical cruiser the feds have couldn't make them do anything of note. i could jump in a kdf cruiser and be a fat escort though easily, they can turn at a usable measure and use weapons that actually do something. thats the cruiser effectiveness baseline as far as im concerned, theres no reason for fed cruisers to be 1/3 as effective at dealing damage.
keep your 'cruisers are not damage dealer' arguments to your self, they are, when they arent being support boats. high end DEM and high end EWP can be used to hilarious effect, rivaling escort damage, being able to slot multiple holds along with plenty of heals, and on a single cannon excelsior having basically no end to on target up time. im not saying an odyssey or star cruiser should be as dangerous as a vorcha, but a regent or excelsior should be.
im not advocating raising all fed cruiser turn rates to 10 and letting them use DHCs, something more IP friendly and different would be better. first, the fireing rate and look beams have when you use FAW should be the new normal. that alone might be enough of a boost to their DPS, their lazy rate of fire is one of their biggest problems, along with not having a CRF equivalent. it also makes DEM suck with beams, hardly doing anything. CRF is a gigantic buff to cannon damage and effectiveness, honestly too great of a buff, but everything's sort of balanced around that so oh well. FAW is terrible and turns 95% acc beams into 75% acc garbage that spreads its damage harmlessly over any target in range. ether make beam arrays fire at FAW speed naturally, or make FAW a single target, accurate ability.
single cannons look exactly like turrets, this is bad for recognition. i have heard devs say they want things to be visually distinctive so the player knows what they are dealing with, well this is a case were they have failed at doing that. luckily, theres an easy solution. there is already an in game programing asset for a heavy single cannon, borg tac cubes use it, it looks like a single barrel DHC shot, has a DHC like firing cycle, and in the combat log appears as a 'heavy plasma cannon'. replace single cannons with these heavy cannons and they would be GREAT weapons. they would have DHC style front loaded damage, but less of it with more arc. could probably keep the dps the same, or raise it a bit to compensate for beam array's now higher DPS.
oh i might as well mention DCs. give them a 90 degree firing arc, and have them drain 8 energy and they would be worthy of consideration. i'm serious.
DBBs could get a similar treatment that beam arrays got, or not. their purpose is to deliver BOs, thats it. singles with CFR out damage DBBs so bad its embarrassing. use singles in number, not DBBs
cant complain about turrets, though right now im positive that an 8 turret excelsior with a cannons skill at its global would out damage any 8 beam array build. beams are that bad right now.
Post edited by dontdrunkimshoot on
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No, seriously. A scisci fitted as a beamboat can do ~1.5k sustained dps (plugin v2011), a tactical cruiser beamboat can go above 2k (all numbers without FAW).
You have to be careful in which situation you measure the damage. If the opposing team dies to short escort bursts within seconds of entering the fight, you won't be able to get much damage from your beams that require more time to destroy something. But if the fight takes longer, beam arrays can do a lot to provide pressure damage.
Try using a solid EPtW instead of gimmicky DEM+BO builds.
i fought and got toasted by your fleet excelsior with galor beams, but you were also in the ideal position to kill me in my fragile vet ship, alone, tanking well, able to comfortably ready GDF.
EPtW? that is so 2011, that brings back memories. now, tac cruisers run on AtB with tech doffs, maybe 2, reducing all their abilities to global, and buffing their energy levels, like EPtW would. DEM3 at global, BO3, or FAW if you for some reason want it at global, overcaped weapons energy, an attack pattern, maybe omega at global. really, you cant do better then that in a tac cruiser, it actually makes them good ships. and when comparing beam arrays to single cannons on that platform, there was no comparison.
sure, when you unload beam damage into tanks the DPS will be TRIBBLE, but thats true for even DHCs. 90% of the matches i parse only the damage dealers get close to or barely pass 2k dps because resistance is so crazy, only to deal 15 to 20k dps in an stf next. i bet a sci/sci could do at least 1500 dps with 4 flow cap buffed tet glider, ive seen that be devastating. is glider somewhere recorded in the log?
EPtW? lol learn to play tac cruisers in 2012/13
reduce healing, AI hitpoints, fix cannons power drain (make it drain power like beams do). Here you go. Cannons drain as much power as beams making beams viable again and 4xDHC build not viable again. Reduced healing means that lower damage does not affect PvP and yet gives the beams additional damage (relatively speaking).
And it would make PvE more game interesting with anyone else then escorts being viable and escorts forced to cooperate (reduced healing = less tankiness in escorts). Some eng consoles (EPS ones) will be usefull again too.
It should be very, very simple to implement - it's just about changing few numbers. Ballancing it correctly may be a bit difficult, but community should help here.
But then... how Devs would play the game? They would need to think, or what?
My EPtW scisci beamboat shall beat your AtB/DEM cruiser!
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
dude, completely rebalanced healing and damage is not more simple then adjusting beam array rate of fire, turning single cannons into heavy cannons, and giving DCs a higher fireing arc and lower energy cost.
ya, your sci ship has a more then decent chance to beat my cruiser. its not the beams that win though, its the VM, and everything else on the sci end of the spectrum that will secure that win. :P
So maybe fight my EPtW tac cruiser? But I guess I should swap ES for EWP for a duel and replace ST with HE.
Raise beams firing rang to say 12.5 or even 15km.
oh a vesta eh? no vm? that is my 1 weakness, just like everyone else lol. must be shield striping or power draining, interesting. i have ~130 insulators running on average though, so good luck with that.
a tac cruiser duel? whoever more effectively uses GDF is most likely to win. and with no closer with the singles it will be grueling. im fairly sure my build style is better, but i doubt im quite the pilot, or opportunity exploiting master that you are. that will make all the difference in such a match.
both would be interesting and fun.
But my scisci vesta also is not build around shield stripping or power drains. It's all about the EPtW and beams.
Mr.Plasma versus Mr.Math.
I can say that his science is so good i copied his build (slightly mai kai-modified) and it is awesome. although with my generic sci skill tree spec i'm not doing as much as hilbert though
Do you even Science Bro?
well if we go by cryptic math... 1% is supposed to be low.... but ends up being way to often, 20% seens to happen all the time...
so......
Do you even Science Bro?
and it is. this wouldn't push the boundaries of damage, it just rearranges things slightly between the goal posts. it would just make a few things less worthless, and beam arrays better when someone puts effort into making them deal damage.
biggest reason im pushing for this is the inequity between kdf and fed cruisers tactically. you could set up a kdf cruiser to be a beam array heal boat like any fed cruiser, or you could make it a tactical force to be reckoned with, an escort replacement. cant do that on a fed cruiser, and why? theres no objective out of universe reason for it.
remember when FAW was dangerous? well normal beam arrays would be closer to that, but not quite. back in the lol faw days they were over powered, now they are pretty deeply underpowered. i see the change making them deal damage a bit more like the old FAW days, but it would only be to a single target at a time
and who doesn't think DCs need a buff? and why not make singles a more desirable weapon? the heavy single cannon already exists in game
All they have to do is return to the OLD weapon drain system.
The one that favored Engis with Nadion and EPS Heavily.... and forced escorts with 4 dhc to run 2-3 EPS units to keep that sort of setup feed.
Your right the issue right now is your power just automajixly Returns the second the weapon cycle is finished... making DHC king. (they where still king before... it just forced people dedicating there entire weapon array to Energy to run at min 1 EPS unit... I think with the skill revamp and the extra bit of EPS everyone gets no for free the system would NOT TRIBBLE over pve people that refuse to run EPS units for STFS)
CrthX2 Acc is the way to go. :P
check out my help thread, linked in my sig. its got a bunch of tech doff builds and a post detailing tech doff use.
but i like ~95% accuracy with my do nothing!
like id spend a dime, or millions of dimes on another set of beams at this point.
Until you see 3 BOv miss in a row. I had a Cannon DBB raptor and it was so depressing to get a shield facing down and watch the BOv hit open air ad that is with Acc x 2 DBB. Since the engine in the game is so crappy and my torps no longer show up I do not get disappointed when THY volley has 2 out 3 miss.
Thanks, you don't mention use of keybinds but it does list 2 A2Bs is keybinding them a good idea?
I have been yelling about the disparity between dual heavys, beam arrays and the general suckyness of fed cruisers that result from it for since the bloody game begun. thx for getting wise to the fact.
if you use 2 AtB, key binds are a must, you will need to activate it every 10 seconds. in my thread i linked to a GUI that can make keybinds for you, just assign a key to an action and it will generate it for you. its in the table of contents
a great many of us have been saying this forever, weapons orther ten DHCs are in sorry shape since forever. this thread is my annual public complaint about them on the forums.
Well it really didn't work out for me, it rendered me heal-less so I'm going back to my EPtW build
With regard to this, I fully support any action to bring balance back to weapons
it does have pretty big disadvantages, but you can mitigate them. you run a copy of EPtA, and you tend to have about 30 aux most of them time. AtS, sharing a cooldown with AtB, is basically a non option. but you can use HE and TSS, and with the excelsior ET1 at at their global. the aux based heals without a batery will be less powerful, but you can use them twice as often. just have lots of aux batts on hand when you need healing. since you don't have high aux ever, you cant build a very good healer around tech doff cruisers.
Anyone else notice on tribble how all DEVs play Tactical characters? If they all played Engineers they would better understand this issue. I know that sounds weird, until you think about it a bit and remember Engineers rely on BO skills, not Captain skills, for all spike damage regardless of ship.
Rules of Acquisition at Priority One
There's little point to playing as anything else in pve, to be honest. That's mostly what the devs do, so it stands to reason that tac would be their most popular choice.
Engineers and Science only really come into their own in pvp.