Duke, I will say that I could chose a less emotionally charged word than whining, but it basically boils down to the same thing. And I agree, it is human nature to complain or whine, what ever you want to call it. I don't really think that gives someone the right to scream exploit, and honestly, the foundry authors are just one group that is on my nerves about that sort of behavior, the next PvP or PvE foram rager that gets me going I will probably jump into as well, this thread was just the first that caught my eye today. But I keep drifting more and more off topic, so I will end my contribution to this thread with what the OP asked for.
No, I don't think this is an exploit, defining exploit as getting something easier than it should be. No matter how I play this mission, or any other mission like this, it will take about 15 minutes, and in the same amount of time I get approximately the same amount of reward with other content.
Is this "anathema to the spirit of the Foundry?" Well, I think that depends on what you think the foundry is. If you think its only for fan fiction stories, then yes. On the other hand, I could very easily make this a story mission, just put some filler text around it, make one of the BOFFs say something like, "Captain, you need to active this obvious trap console behind this wall that will appear out of nowhere." And then, "Oh no captain, its a trap that I totally just did not say would be there five seconds ago. We have to defend ourselves." Well, I'm being silly, but the point is there. I don't think you or anyone has the right to judge what someone does with the foundry, with the exception of Cryptic, and as far as I know they seem to think its fine. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, and I fail to see why you do. Its not advertizing itself as anything but what it is, a grinder. Anyone looking for stories will pass it by unless they are brain dead. And why do you want someone like that to play your mission? Chances are they're not going to like it, will give it one star, and not give you a tip.
Anyway, I've said the rest of what I could say before, so I'll leave it at that, and I'll start a new thread if I have more I want to say on the general subject.
I think it's true that we are writing and designing missions for an entirely different kind of Trek game, rather than what this game has become. These missions that annoy us or sadden us are quite frankly more in-line with what STO has become post S6.
Is it pretty? No, but neither are most of the Cryptic missions that a. have no story and b. cater to the LCD.
Pretty much have to agree with this, unfortunately.
What bothers me is there's no way to allow people who do want story to easily find those type of missions with the current search tool.
Since we're being constructive again, I agree about ditching the wrapper.
What we need is just a system that records how much time the player took to complete the foundry mission and awards out the dilithium/fleet marks accordingly at the conclusion of whatever mission they were playing.
So if you play a mission for 15 minutes, you get whatever dil 15 minutes would get you elsewhere in the game. If you play for an hour, you get an hours worth. You must finish the mission though, and put a cap on how much you can earn each day.
This way its on the player to put in whatever time they choose and they will be rewarded accordingly. It wouldn't be dependent on authors jumping through a million hoops to meet some arbitrary qualification standard. Authors can make what they like. Then we need a better search system so players can play what they like without having to sift through what they don't.
What we need is just a system that records how much time the player took to complete the foundry mission and awards out the dilithium/fleet marks accordingly at the conclusion of whatever mission they were playing.
The most popular mission would be a bar full of dancing Orions where these grinders just stand around in while watching TV in real life. Cash out for dilithium with each episode of TNG.
Well there were some good points in your argumentation, malkarris. You made me rethink my statement. Do I like Grinding missions? No. Do I prefer Story mission? Yes. Does this give me the right to tell players which missions to play? Definitively not.
To be honest: I played the klingon mission with my new klingon toon (captain lvl) and little to no equiped BOFFs. They were killed every wave so I had to come out of my hiding place and help them. So in this case it was far away from an afk mission because I spent 20-30 minutes with killing wave after wave. It was sooooo boring
I think what made me so angry at the first moment was that there are (from my point of view) much better written and "designed" missions which deserve that high rankings more. But at the end it's just my personal taste and as we all know people/players like different things.
Kirksplat put it in a nutshell quite well.
So far... I continue playing Foundry Challenge #5 missions now. Maybe some of them don't reward me with Dillithium but at least they "reward" me with something different. At the end it's a (your) game... it's your imagination... play whatever mission-style you prefer.
Actually I regret "wasting" my time with that Grinding mission today
Outer space is large enough so everone can find his/her place.
The most popular mission would be a bar full of dancing Orions where these grinders just stand around in while watching TV in real life. Cash out for dilithium with each episode of TNG.
That's why I say there should be a cap. If they want to just stand around for their two hours or whatever a day let em. Pretty pathetic if you ask me, but it's their time to waste and they still have to put in the time, but its their choice to not get any entertainment value. Personally even if I was a grinder I wouldn't have the patients to sit and poke the mouse 4 times an hour. At least with my way it ain't maximum reward for minimum effort, which is what we have now.
And they wouldn't watch TNG, it doesn't reward dilithium. :P
...
IMHO, I think you are missing the point about the officer report mission. It is not designed for story missions, it is designed to be one way of maxing out on the daily dilithium. You can play 8 30 minute foundry missions and get your limit, or you can play 8 STFs and get your limit, or you can mix and match and add in some doff missions and get your limit. To me, looking at it, that is what that missions is for, another way to grind. And like STFs, it can be a fun way to grind, depending on your definition of fun. Now, if this was to be a story reward, the officer report missions would be something like what it was, a daily mission, but it would reward 8,000 dilithium, 50-400 fleet marks, depending on what cryptic feels like, and any mission would have to be an hour long and have at least ten screens of text. Actually, lets make it simple and say that it has to be a current or previously featured foundry mission. That way, the best foundry mission gets the best reward. And that is probably going to be the ONLY way you get the masses to play a story based foundry mission. And they will probably not leave any comments or good ratings.
I'm glad you started with IMHO, because I think we're going to need to agree to disagree here. It's my view it is the opposite. I'm pretty sure of it, because the development team was talking about rewarding players for playing foundry missions -before- dilithium and f2p was an option for them. Before PWE acquired them. They said they wanted to do it, but didn't want to introduce another silly badge mark thing that could only be used in some situations. They told us this. The reason we got the Investigate daily was not to full fill everyone being able to get 8k a day. It was so people wouldn't be penalized every time they wanted to play a foundry mission.
You and I play differently, I don't go for max a day. I pull 2-4k dl on my 4 toons on a daily basis. I get a lot of my DL from pugging elite space stfs when I have time, because I find it fun, even if I have to carry from time to time. And from the occasional foundry mission (that I now get from every mission instead of every 3). A real fair amount from contraband.
But, it's my belief here that you looking at the purpose of foundry being to supply DL and FMs to players is a faulty assumption. Something I think was built off of that history.
As far as Kirkfat's statement about what will happen in an individual timer representative reward is given. Yeah, probably will be a few missions where it is just hanging out, staring at dancing orions. Cryptic said they won't harp down on that. But, because they wont by trying to game the system constantly it will go back to what it was with the console clickers. Just one or two, because that's all people need. And then we go back to the old system, but, all of our missions are giving rewards, independent of time longer than 15 minutes. Better than 1 out of 3.
That way the only people playing Foundry missions are the ones that want to play them for the entertainment value, not for currency. The people who don't feel their time in game has been wasted if every second of it doesn't count towards a grind.
Those players are out there. The Foundry didn't ship with the wrapper and we still got plenty of plays. I know, I was there.
That way the only people playing Foundry missions are the ones that want to play them for the entertainment value, not for currency. The people who don't feel their time in game has been wasted if every second of it doesn't count towards a grind.
Those players are out there. The Foundry didn't ship with the wrapper and we still got plenty of plays. I know, I was there.
Yeah, but, it's nice when people aren't penalized for doing them either. The idea of someone being able to level their 5th toon doing content other than Doff Assignments and the same mission sets is a cool idea.
Oh well, if things were easy they wouldn't be interesting.
Its working as intended. Not as the Developers intended however...
Yes, the mission is working as the author intended, but is it really for the Foundry?
*shakes head* If all the player must do is log in and sit there with no interactions, then this one should just be removed as a console clicker (this coming from someone who created/used console clickers).
However, I have no problem with what some are considering Grind missions. And this is coming from a dedicated role-player.
For example, I rather enjoy the Battleship Royale, which was mentioned on the first page of posts. It gives interesting details about how the other ships fare against each other and I get to test different strategies/defenses. For example, I learned that you can drag an accumulation of enemy mines right into a different faction ship (Galaxy Quest style); a strategy I'm now using in all sorts of fun places (my poor holographic ships...how cruel I am to them now). In addition, the background space scenes are quite nice as well.
It does drop a good portion of loot - but this loot is limited in amount per day (interesting aspect that was placed into the game - after a certain quantity of loot via foundry missions is obtained the drops stop entirely for a day).
To be blunt, I find it fun - even to the point of doing it several times per day. I rated it 5 stars & donated dilithium because the description and the mission were accurate and I've enjoyed it.
I've even created my own "grind" which currently involve the Breen which I find rather challenging (more so than Battleship). Most of the official missions are nothing more than "grinds" where you just kill all the enemies. So what is the big deal here?
I've also tried the current Featured Foundry mission; and despite it being rather well done, I just didn't enjoy it. It worked wonderfully, and obviously the author put a great deal of dedicated work into it - but after a few minutes it felt like one of those episodes you sit through just so you don't miss a part of some overarching storyline in the series - however you can play those at 2x speed... I'd rate that one also 5 stars but not b/c I enjoyed it, but it was a quality product. Quite a shame really since I was so thrilled to see a featured foundry mission put up and jumped right upon it. I can't wait for future spotlight missions to be posted (as well as try some of the missions/series advertised in many of your signatures).
It is clear that some missions which are just console clickers in disguise (as the OP brought up) don't deserve the reward and I understand the fervor against them. Meanwhile, there are many missions that are not console clickers and meet the requirements of 15 minutes interactive gaming (like my Breen mission ? 25-30min), which do not receive the reward or high ratings. Is this a slap in the face?
I recommend that in addition to the 15 minutes game time a player should be disqualified if they are AFK for 5+ minutes (this should also include the STFs, marks missions, etc?). I also rec?d in another thread that the foundry missions should have different levels of reward based on average gaming time. Why shouldn?t a story-intensive hour long mission earn more of a reward than a 15 minute shoot-em-up?
My long post and a nickel gets you a nickel. Thanks for reading.
There are Four Lights... say no to ARCFleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
Adding to my already long post is that the Foundry should allow you to search by the type of mission and then list them in order of stars, etc...
Options can include:
Space or Ground only or mixed
Role-Playing/Storyline or simple Kill-fest
Number of Maps*
Other thoughts?
*one mission I played recently had maybe 10 transitions or so and although it too was a work of art sitting behind so many load screens was a killer for me.
There are Four Lights... say no to ARCFleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
Thank you all for the insightful and frank discussion. Keep it up. Now I'll clarify one or two things on my opinion. I have no problem with grinders. They take time and effort and often improve on the Dev's formula or the patrol style mission. There is nothing wrong with a mission designed to be a daily. I have one after all. I converted one of my non combat Foundry Challenge missions into one.
The Key Difference:
They are meant to be interactive and involve your Captain, not set you up and let your Doffs do all the work while you run off to get a sandwich. That's what rubs me the wrong way.
Also known as Gingie(In game) Sskald(Gates of Sto-vo-kor)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Separating the missions into categories would also require ratings to have separate fields instead of just a general 0-5 star rating.
I've read more than a few complaints from story-based missions that they received 1 star b/c it was "too long" or "too much to read", meanwhile in their description for the mission it told the players that it'd take n minutes or was story-intensive.
On the flip side, my little Breen shoot-em-up (which I'm building a storyline for, but wanted to get some of the combat tested/receive feedback) received a mediocre rating because it lacked a storyline.
What would resolve this is categories for the ratings. Something basic and quick. The foundry author should categorize their mission and that would enable specific ratings categories. This could then be used to enhance the search engine so that the players can find the missions they want (sometimes all I want is a quick 15-20min shoot-em-up; other times, like last night, I went for a 90+minute episode by AJStoner - which I really enjoyed - often though I wind up wasting endless time trying to find a mission that suits my mood/time/etc..).
There are Four Lights... say no to ARCFleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
What would resolve this is categories for the ratings. Something basic and quick. The foundry author should categorize their mission and that would enable specific ratings categories. This could then be used to enhance the search engine so that the players can find the missions they want (sometimes all I want is a quick 15-20min shoot-em-up; other times, like last night, I went for a 90+minute episode by AJStoner - which I really enjoyed - often though I wind up wasting endless time trying to find a mission that suits my mood/time/etc..).
I think you're right, and I think Cryptic could help us do this by putting a bunch of checkboxes on the opening page such as type of enemies, dialogue heavy or not, ground combat, space combat, etc. The author checks whichever boxes that apply to the mission. The search then uses that to help players refine their searches to find what they're looking for more easily.
1. From my perspective, the "Foundary" was created because Cryptic was too lazy to build new content.
2. Every foundary "story" mission I've tried has bugged out. Wasting 45 minutes and getting nothing because a chat dialog or a map transition didn't display is NOT fun.
3. The simple grinding missions (I like "KDF Battle Royale", battleship version) are the only foundry missions that are currently worth my time.
Nah, Foundry is something unique in current MMO scene, its a good idea to involve players and it states quite big balls to keep it on track as it is in an F2P MMO. Technically it surely would have been easier to simply add missions than to create and maintain the Foundry.For me this is the main reason playing STO.
There are buggy stories out there, right. It is quite annoying too to have 90% of a 1hr mission done and then bummer with one of the last objectives. Even if - like in most cases this happened to me - the author reacted promptly and ironed out the bugs.
I use grind missions too - for the grind. Lots of ppl do, so do the numbers tell. I dont see a Foundry specific problem in that. If Foundry is able to deliver great grind scenarios and great story lines - perfect.
As well ... I cant understand the problem the OP has with grind missions.
The OP's major problem he started the post with was he didn't like the idea of a Foundry Mission designed so that the player didn't do anything, just sat there as his Boffs fought for him and he couldn't aid.
It's looking pretty tremulous now but there are three major stances, I think, that are forming.
-People who think every foundry mission should have some kind of story and interaction and not designed solely to replace "console clickers",
-People who don't mind the grinders so long as their makers put some polish into them and that they don't block access to seeing new foundry story missions,
-And people who think the only purpose for the foundry is the Investigate Officer Reports rewards.
We all knew a new exploit would come around eventually. Well I found one and this one in particular makes me sick to my stomach.
Your definition of exploit is incorrect. You're mistaking something you personally don't like for malicious or advantageous hacking. My missions use the same primitive and limited building functions that anyone can use.
The mission itself is exactly what the description says. You set your Boffs to stand in an area then you go to a raised platform with a good view of the arena and activate a console. A wall then appears preventing enemies from getting in or you getting out. The battle goes on with no influence from your captain at all unless you can jump like a Catian/Ferasan.
The only redeeming quality of this mission is it's intelligent map design.
Thank you. It's a definite design challenge. Though Feds on Fire was just a test case, I hope my subsequent maps will be more interesting and elaborate.
The following review rebutted my own, claiming "*******" like me are the ones responsible for the nerfs.
He does have a point. A few Foundry authors do have a primadonna attitude and essentially petitioned for the nerfs by asking the devs to "do something" about the clickers.
And now it seems there is another mission type to crusade against. Should the devs "do something" again and further cripple this game?
What are your thoughts, do you disagree that this kind of mission is anathema to the spirit of the Foundry?
There is no "spirit of the foundry" except in the minds of a small clique. I am a player and lifetime subscriber and my missions are no more or less valid a creation than theirs. Ultimately, the Foundry is a corporate space and its "spirit" is determined by Cryptic/PWE.
Are Dilithium rewards so important that this gets higher ratings than others?
Because Cryptic/PWE has decided for the last two seasons to introduce asian-style grinding, the answer is yes. Time and resources are in short supply, which creates the conditions where some mission types are not only desired but necessary.
If you'd like to discuss layout or mechanics of my missions, I'd love to have that dialog.
The OP's major problem he started the post with was he didn't like the idea of a Foundry Mission designed so that the player didn't do anything, just sat there as his Boffs fought for him and he couldn't aid.
...
This is my view too. If people want to shoot stuff for 30 minutes that's fine. A mission where you click a button and watch TV and get free stuff is not so kosher
He does have a point. A few Foundry authors do have a primadonna attitude and essentially petitioned for the nerfs by asking the devs to "do something" about the clickers.
And now it seems there is another mission type to crusade against. Should the devs "do something" again and further cripple this game?
Ok, first lets get this straight: Cryptic considers dil to be a reward for time played, dsthal pretty much said so. Whether anyone complained about it or not they were not going to keep letting folks get 1440 for 5 seconds of play for forever. Why it took so long for them to change it is still a mystery.
There is no "spirit of the foundry" except in the minds of a small clique. I am a player and lifetime subscriber and my missions are no more or less valid a creation than theirs. Ultimately, the Foundry is a corporate space and its "spirit" is determined by Cryptic/PWE.
From what I understand the Foundry was actually a player request, Cryptic never had any plans before to allow players to create their own content. As such it would be fair to say that the Foundry belongs to players as it wouldn't exist without our continued effort and constant feedback.
Because Cryptic/PWE has decided for the last two seasons to introduce asian-style grinding, the answer is yes. Time and resources are in short supply, which creates the conditions where some mission types are not only desired but necessary.
If you'd like to discuss layout or mechanics of my missions, I'd love to have that dialog.
Sincerely,
Izdubar
Here's what I don't understand about everyone complaining about grinding; What exactly is the rush? I understand the desire to get the rewards, but is it worth doing stuff you don't enjoy in a mad rush to get it faster? As far as I can tell you can get everything just through normal play, its just a matter of how long it takes. Seems to me people are forcing a grind on themselves.
As for the legitimacy of this mission, it really serves no purpose to argue what should count as a 'real' mission. Cryptic has set the rules as what we can do in the Foundry with the EULA and what counts for rewards (though it would be nice if they PUBLISHED the actual formula as to how a mission qualifies). Are missions like this and those like it what were envisioned when the Foundry was first created? Maybe not, but as long as they follow the rules there is no fair reason not to allow them to be up there.
Play Star Trek: Allegiance - my first series in the Foundry
You want to know what I got from this thread, The idea of how to create a mission on how to do the daily without a fuss, and, to start looking for this mission so I can partake in its wonder.
Thats the only thing most people will get out of it.
If someone wants to enjoy the actual missions on the foundry they will do so without the need for a reward.
In fact I’m surprised that the authors haven’t complained to have the rewards removed.
If I were an author and got my work published and found out that the only reason people were reading my work was because they got paid to do so, I would feel insulted.
Well that what its come to, players are searching for missions that will take the least amount of time to complete them and they are willing to stomach any bad mission out there as long as its gives them what they want (a quick ending).
Just by taking the exploit out of something that is completely optional to the player doesn?t mean that the player will switch over to the actual content, it just means that the player will skip the foundry altogether.
People will play the missions that make them happy, and I have no doubt that the click and go mission was the most played mission in the entire foundry.
There is no point in getting upset or disturbed about it.
If you feel that your mission is good then the players will play them.
I cant see how any of these types of mission effect other players in general.
I play this ENTIRE GAME for fun. All of it. Why else would I be here?
And part of that fun is getting rewards and progress.
Foundry should be no different. The 'sell' of Foundry is being able to be creative in a game where other people can enjoy what you make, and to experience weird and interesting, fresh new stuff without the usual dev cycle and limitations.
That's the point.
Finding easier and quicker ways to grind is just goofy and clearly not the intent in the game. I mean, if they intended you to log in and get dilithium for doing nothing at length, they could just have a dilithium counter based on login time and you could just walk away.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I cant see how any of these types of mission effect other players in general.
It affects expectations. It means people start rating my missions poorly because they aren't 15 minutes long and have too much talky bits. It means people looking for cool missions have to wade through more pointless uninteresting swill because that's 99% of the listing.
(Witness City of Heroes Mission Architect system, where trying to find something that wasn't a freakin' farm was next to impossible)
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Since @Gingie was so kind to create this rather hefty thread in my honor, I thought it would only be right to supply a rebuttal.
#1 Your definition of exploit is incorrect. You're mistaking something you personally don't like for malicious or advantageous hacking. My missions use the same primitive and limited building functions that anyone can use.
#2 Thank you. It's a definite design challenge. Though Feds on Fire was just a test case, I hope my subsequent maps will be more interesting and elaborate.
#3 He does have a point. A few Foundry authors do have a primadonna attitude and essentially petitioned for the nerfs by asking the devs to "do something" about the clickers.
And now it seems there is another mission type to crusade against. Should the devs "do something" again and further cripple this game?
#4 There is no "spirit of the foundry" except in the minds of a small clique. I am a player and lifetime subscriber and my missions are no more or less valid a creation than theirs. Ultimately, the Foundry is a corporate space and its "spirit" is determined by Cryptic/PWE.
#5 Because Cryptic/PWE has decided for the last two seasons to introduce asian-style grinding, the answer is yes. Time and resources are in short supply, which creates the conditions where some mission types are not only desired but necessary.
If you'd like to discuss layout or mechanics of my missions, I'd love to have that dialog.
Sincerely,
Izdubar
First of all, thank you or not taking my comments personally and offering some intelligent
feedback. I omitted your handle in order to prevent any personal flame wars that flare up so often. I also left my original post open so that the community could discuss your mission formula.
#1 Yes, exploit was too harsh a term to describe your missions. It is clear that you put some time and effort into them.
The old console clickers by and large did not.
#2 I did like you map design. It was very clear that you put some planning into it. The platform had a great view of the Boff arena. Thought I used Feds o Fire as the example for this post I actually played your Undine one.
#3 I have no intention of starting any crusades, its not worth the effort. As I said in a previous post I have no problem with grinder missions. In many cases the authors have made significant improvements to the Dev's patrol mission formula. Not everyone wants to play one of the multi-hour opuses, I understand that, some people just want to shoot at stuff. I'm not of the opinion that "any mission that isn't a story mission is unworthy."
#4 I disagree. The idea of what the Foundry represents has always been clear. In the Intorduction video Dstahl and others make it very clear what they hope to see from the Foundry. However, I believe that the Foundry's spirit is determined by the community that have come together around the tool.
#5 You call the recent Dilithium reward changes "Nerfs" but that is far from the truth. Dilithium is more available now than ever before. The Foundry reward wrapper now only requires one mission completion and can be repeated after 20 minutes, Fleet actions that take about 15-20 minutes reward it, Rep assignments award it, STFs reward it, Red Alerts, exploration clusters Doff assignments, the list goes on and on! It is impractical now to depend of quick and easy Foundry missions to meet your daily Dilithium cap.
I would also enjoy discussing the layout and mechanics of your missions.
Also known as Gingie(In game) Sskald(Gates of Sto-vo-kor)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
We all knew a new exploit would come around eventually. Well I found one and this one in particular makes me sick to my stomach.
If something in a video game is making you sick to your stomach it's probably time to go outside and get some fresh air for a little while. Or maybe seek professional help. How are other players Foundry missions even harming your gameplay experience? If someone was exploiting a bug in PVP I could at least see where the harm is, but a little grinder mission is making you ill?
Comments
No, I don't think this is an exploit, defining exploit as getting something easier than it should be. No matter how I play this mission, or any other mission like this, it will take about 15 minutes, and in the same amount of time I get approximately the same amount of reward with other content.
Is this "anathema to the spirit of the Foundry?" Well, I think that depends on what you think the foundry is. If you think its only for fan fiction stories, then yes. On the other hand, I could very easily make this a story mission, just put some filler text around it, make one of the BOFFs say something like, "Captain, you need to active this obvious trap console behind this wall that will appear out of nowhere." And then, "Oh no captain, its a trap that I totally just did not say would be there five seconds ago. We have to defend ourselves." Well, I'm being silly, but the point is there. I don't think you or anyone has the right to judge what someone does with the foundry, with the exception of Cryptic, and as far as I know they seem to think its fine. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, and I fail to see why you do. Its not advertizing itself as anything but what it is, a grinder. Anyone looking for stories will pass it by unless they are brain dead. And why do you want someone like that to play your mission? Chances are they're not going to like it, will give it one star, and not give you a tip.
Anyway, I've said the rest of what I could say before, so I'll leave it at that, and I'll start a new thread if I have more I want to say on the general subject.
Nouveau riche LTS member
Pretty much have to agree with this, unfortunately.
What bothers me is there's no way to allow people who do want story to easily find those type of missions with the current search tool.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
What we need is just a system that records how much time the player took to complete the foundry mission and awards out the dilithium/fleet marks accordingly at the conclusion of whatever mission they were playing.
So if you play a mission for 15 minutes, you get whatever dil 15 minutes would get you elsewhere in the game. If you play for an hour, you get an hours worth. You must finish the mission though, and put a cap on how much you can earn each day.
This way its on the player to put in whatever time they choose and they will be rewarded accordingly. It wouldn't be dependent on authors jumping through a million hoops to meet some arbitrary qualification standard. Authors can make what they like. Then we need a better search system so players can play what they like without having to sift through what they don't.
The most popular mission would be a bar full of dancing Orions where these grinders just stand around in while watching TV in real life. Cash out for dilithium with each episode of TNG.
To be honest: I played the klingon mission with my new klingon toon (captain lvl) and little to no equiped BOFFs. They were killed every wave so I had to come out of my hiding place and help them. So in this case it was far away from an afk mission because I spent 20-30 minutes with killing wave after wave. It was sooooo boring
I think what made me so angry at the first moment was that there are (from my point of view) much better written and "designed" missions which deserve that high rankings more. But at the end it's just my personal taste and as we all know people/players like different things.
Kirksplat put it in a nutshell quite well.
So far... I continue playing Foundry Challenge #5 missions now. Maybe some of them don't reward me with Dillithium but at least they "reward" me with something different. At the end it's a (your) game... it's your imagination... play whatever mission-style you prefer.
Actually I regret "wasting" my time with that Grinding mission today
Outer space is large enough so everone can find his/her place.
Greetings Nahari
That's why I say there should be a cap. If they want to just stand around for their two hours or whatever a day let em. Pretty pathetic if you ask me, but it's their time to waste and they still have to put in the time, but its their choice to not get any entertainment value. Personally even if I was a grinder I wouldn't have the patients to sit and poke the mouse 4 times an hour. At least with my way it ain't maximum reward for minimum effort, which is what we have now.
And they wouldn't watch TNG, it doesn't reward dilithium. :P
I'm glad you started with IMHO, because I think we're going to need to agree to disagree here. It's my view it is the opposite. I'm pretty sure of it, because the development team was talking about rewarding players for playing foundry missions -before- dilithium and f2p was an option for them. Before PWE acquired them. They said they wanted to do it, but didn't want to introduce another silly badge mark thing that could only be used in some situations. They told us this. The reason we got the Investigate daily was not to full fill everyone being able to get 8k a day. It was so people wouldn't be penalized every time they wanted to play a foundry mission.
You and I play differently, I don't go for max a day. I pull 2-4k dl on my 4 toons on a daily basis. I get a lot of my DL from pugging elite space stfs when I have time, because I find it fun, even if I have to carry from time to time. And from the occasional foundry mission (that I now get from every mission instead of every 3). A real fair amount from contraband.
But, it's my belief here that you looking at the purpose of foundry being to supply DL and FMs to players is a faulty assumption. Something I think was built off of that history.
As far as Kirkfat's statement about what will happen in an individual timer representative reward is given. Yeah, probably will be a few missions where it is just hanging out, staring at dancing orions. Cryptic said they won't harp down on that. But, because they wont by trying to game the system constantly it will go back to what it was with the console clickers. Just one or two, because that's all people need. And then we go back to the old system, but, all of our missions are giving rewards, independent of time longer than 15 minutes. Better than 1 out of 3.
That way the only people playing Foundry missions are the ones that want to play them for the entertainment value, not for currency. The people who don't feel their time in game has been wasted if every second of it doesn't count towards a grind.
Those players are out there. The Foundry didn't ship with the wrapper and we still got plenty of plays. I know, I was there.
Yeah, but, it's nice when people aren't penalized for doing them either. The idea of someone being able to level their 5th toon doing content other than Doff Assignments and the same mission sets is a cool idea.
Oh well, if things were easy they wouldn't be interesting.
Yes, the mission is working as the author intended, but is it really for the Foundry?
*shakes head* If all the player must do is log in and sit there with no interactions, then this one should just be removed as a console clicker (this coming from someone who created/used console clickers).
However, I have no problem with what some are considering Grind missions. And this is coming from a dedicated role-player.
For example, I rather enjoy the Battleship Royale, which was mentioned on the first page of posts. It gives interesting details about how the other ships fare against each other and I get to test different strategies/defenses. For example, I learned that you can drag an accumulation of enemy mines right into a different faction ship (Galaxy Quest style); a strategy I'm now using in all sorts of fun places (my poor holographic ships...how cruel I am to them now). In addition, the background space scenes are quite nice as well.
It does drop a good portion of loot - but this loot is limited in amount per day (interesting aspect that was placed into the game - after a certain quantity of loot via foundry missions is obtained the drops stop entirely for a day).
To be blunt, I find it fun - even to the point of doing it several times per day. I rated it 5 stars & donated dilithium because the description and the mission were accurate and I've enjoyed it.
I've even created my own "grind" which currently involve the Breen which I find rather challenging (more so than Battleship). Most of the official missions are nothing more than "grinds" where you just kill all the enemies. So what is the big deal here?
I've also tried the current Featured Foundry mission; and despite it being rather well done, I just didn't enjoy it. It worked wonderfully, and obviously the author put a great deal of dedicated work into it - but after a few minutes it felt like one of those episodes you sit through just so you don't miss a part of some overarching storyline in the series - however you can play those at 2x speed... I'd rate that one also 5 stars but not b/c I enjoyed it, but it was a quality product. Quite a shame really since I was so thrilled to see a featured foundry mission put up and jumped right upon it. I can't wait for future spotlight missions to be posted (as well as try some of the missions/series advertised in many of your signatures).
It is clear that some missions which are just console clickers in disguise (as the OP brought up) don't deserve the reward and I understand the fervor against them. Meanwhile, there are many missions that are not console clickers and meet the requirements of 15 minutes interactive gaming (like my Breen mission ? 25-30min), which do not receive the reward or high ratings. Is this a slap in the face?
I recommend that in addition to the 15 minutes game time a player should be disqualified if they are AFK for 5+ minutes (this should also include the STFs, marks missions, etc?). I also rec?d in another thread that the foundry missions should have different levels of reward based on average gaming time. Why shouldn?t a story-intensive hour long mission earn more of a reward than a 15 minute shoot-em-up?
My long post and a nickel gets you a nickel. Thanks for reading.
Fleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
Options can include:
Space or Ground only or mixed
Role-Playing/Storyline or simple Kill-fest
Number of Maps*
Other thoughts?
*one mission I played recently had maybe 10 transitions or so and although it too was a work of art sitting behind so many load screens was a killer for me.
Fleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
The Key Difference:
They are meant to be interactive and involve your Captain, not set you up and let your Doffs do all the work while you run off to get a sandwich. That's what rubs me the wrong way.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I like grinders for when my time and attention is limited -- I just want to go blow stuff up and get something for it.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I've read more than a few complaints from story-based missions that they received 1 star b/c it was "too long" or "too much to read", meanwhile in their description for the mission it told the players that it'd take n minutes or was story-intensive.
On the flip side, my little Breen shoot-em-up (which I'm building a storyline for, but wanted to get some of the combat tested/receive feedback) received a mediocre rating because it lacked a storyline.
What would resolve this is categories for the ratings. Something basic and quick. The foundry author should categorize their mission and that would enable specific ratings categories. This could then be used to enhance the search engine so that the players can find the missions they want (sometimes all I want is a quick 15-20min shoot-em-up; other times, like last night, I went for a 90+minute episode by AJStoner - which I really enjoyed - often though I wind up wasting endless time trying to find a mission that suits my mood/time/etc..).
Fleet: 1st Order of Role-Players' Guild - gaming together since 2004
I think you're right, and I think Cryptic could help us do this by putting a bunch of checkboxes on the opening page such as type of enemies, dialogue heavy or not, ground combat, space combat, etc. The author checks whichever boxes that apply to the mission. The search then uses that to help players refine their searches to find what they're looking for more easily.
1. From my perspective, the "Foundary" was created because Cryptic was too lazy to build new content.
2. Every foundary "story" mission I've tried has bugged out. Wasting 45 minutes and getting nothing because a chat dialog or a map transition didn't display is NOT fun.
3. The simple grinding missions (I like "KDF Battle Royale", battleship version) are the only foundry missions that are currently worth my time.
There are buggy stories out there, right. It is quite annoying too to have 90% of a 1hr mission done and then bummer with one of the last objectives. Even if - like in most cases this happened to me - the author reacted promptly and ironed out the bugs.
I use grind missions too - for the grind. Lots of ppl do, so do the numbers tell. I dont see a Foundry specific problem in that. If Foundry is able to deliver great grind scenarios and great story lines - perfect.
As well ... I cant understand the problem the OP has with grind missions.
It's looking pretty tremulous now but there are three major stances, I think, that are forming.
-People who think every foundry mission should have some kind of story and interaction and not designed solely to replace "console clickers",
-People who don't mind the grinders so long as their makers put some polish into them and that they don't block access to seeing new foundry story missions,
-And people who think the only purpose for the foundry is the Investigate Officer Reports rewards.
Your definition of exploit is incorrect. You're mistaking something you personally don't like for malicious or advantageous hacking. My missions use the same primitive and limited building functions that anyone can use.
Thank you. It's a definite design challenge. Though Feds on Fire was just a test case, I hope my subsequent maps will be more interesting and elaborate.
He does have a point. A few Foundry authors do have a primadonna attitude and essentially petitioned for the nerfs by asking the devs to "do something" about the clickers.
And now it seems there is another mission type to crusade against. Should the devs "do something" again and further cripple this game?
There is no "spirit of the foundry" except in the minds of a small clique. I am a player and lifetime subscriber and my missions are no more or less valid a creation than theirs. Ultimately, the Foundry is a corporate space and its "spirit" is determined by Cryptic/PWE.
Because Cryptic/PWE has decided for the last two seasons to introduce asian-style grinding, the answer is yes. Time and resources are in short supply, which creates the conditions where some mission types are not only desired but necessary.
If you'd like to discuss layout or mechanics of my missions, I'd love to have that dialog.
Sincerely,
Izdubar
This is my view too. If people want to shoot stuff for 30 minutes that's fine. A mission where you click a button and watch TV and get free stuff is not so kosher
Foundry Mission Database
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - Commander Rihan
Ok, first lets get this straight: Cryptic considers dil to be a reward for time played, dsthal pretty much said so. Whether anyone complained about it or not they were not going to keep letting folks get 1440 for 5 seconds of play for forever. Why it took so long for them to change it is still a mystery.
From what I understand the Foundry was actually a player request, Cryptic never had any plans before to allow players to create their own content. As such it would be fair to say that the Foundry belongs to players as it wouldn't exist without our continued effort and constant feedback.
Here's what I don't understand about everyone complaining about grinding; What exactly is the rush? I understand the desire to get the rewards, but is it worth doing stuff you don't enjoy in a mad rush to get it faster? As far as I can tell you can get everything just through normal play, its just a matter of how long it takes. Seems to me people are forcing a grind on themselves.
As for the legitimacy of this mission, it really serves no purpose to argue what should count as a 'real' mission. Cryptic has set the rules as what we can do in the Foundry with the EULA and what counts for rewards (though it would be nice if they PUBLISHED the actual formula as to how a mission qualifies). Are missions like this and those like it what were envisioned when the Foundry was first created? Maybe not, but as long as they follow the rules there is no fair reason not to allow them to be up there.
You want to know what I got from this thread, The idea of how to create a mission on how to do the daily without a fuss, and, to start looking for this mission so I can partake in its wonder.
Thats the only thing most people will get out of it.
If someone wants to enjoy the actual missions on the foundry they will do so without the need for a reward.
In fact I’m surprised that the authors haven’t complained to have the rewards removed.
If I were an author and got my work published and found out that the only reason people were reading my work was because they got paid to do so, I would feel insulted.
Well that what its come to, players are searching for missions that will take the least amount of time to complete them and they are willing to stomach any bad mission out there as long as its gives them what they want (a quick ending).
Just by taking the exploit out of something that is completely optional to the player doesn?t mean that the player will switch over to the actual content, it just means that the player will skip the foundry altogether.
People will play the missions that make them happy, and I have no doubt that the click and go mission was the most played mission in the entire foundry.
There is no point in getting upset or disturbed about it.
If you feel that your mission is good then the players will play them.
I cant see how any of these types of mission effect other players in general.
I play this ENTIRE GAME for fun. All of it. Why else would I be here?
And part of that fun is getting rewards and progress.
Foundry should be no different. The 'sell' of Foundry is being able to be creative in a game where other people can enjoy what you make, and to experience weird and interesting, fresh new stuff without the usual dev cycle and limitations.
That's the point.
Finding easier and quicker ways to grind is just goofy and clearly not the intent in the game. I mean, if they intended you to log in and get dilithium for doing nothing at length, they could just have a dilithium counter based on login time and you could just walk away.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
It affects expectations. It means people start rating my missions poorly because they aren't 15 minutes long and have too much talky bits. It means people looking for cool missions have to wade through more pointless uninteresting swill because that's 99% of the listing.
(Witness City of Heroes Mission Architect system, where trying to find something that wasn't a freakin' farm was next to impossible)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
First of all, thank you or not taking my comments personally and offering some intelligent
feedback. I omitted your handle in order to prevent any personal flame wars that flare up so often. I also left my original post open so that the community could discuss your mission formula.
#1 Yes, exploit was too harsh a term to describe your missions. It is clear that you put some time and effort into them.
The old console clickers by and large did not.
#2 I did like you map design. It was very clear that you put some planning into it. The platform had a great view of the Boff arena. Thought I used Feds o Fire as the example for this post I actually played your Undine one.
#3 I have no intention of starting any crusades, its not worth the effort. As I said in a previous post I have no problem with grinder missions. In many cases the authors have made significant improvements to the Dev's patrol mission formula. Not everyone wants to play one of the multi-hour opuses, I understand that, some people just want to shoot at stuff. I'm not of the opinion that "any mission that isn't a story mission is unworthy."
#4 I disagree. The idea of what the Foundry represents has always been clear. In the Intorduction video Dstahl and others make it very clear what they hope to see from the Foundry. However, I believe that the Foundry's spirit is determined by the community that have come together around the tool.
#5 You call the recent Dilithium reward changes "Nerfs" but that is far from the truth. Dilithium is more available now than ever before. The Foundry reward wrapper now only requires one mission completion and can be repeated after 20 minutes, Fleet actions that take about 15-20 minutes reward it, Rep assignments award it, STFs reward it, Red Alerts, exploration clusters Doff assignments, the list goes on and on! It is impractical now to depend of quick and easy Foundry missions to meet your daily Dilithium cap.
I would also enjoy discussing the layout and mechanics of your missions.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If something in a video game is making you sick to your stomach it's probably time to go outside and get some fresh air for a little while. Or maybe seek professional help. How are other players Foundry missions even harming your gameplay experience? If someone was exploiting a bug in PVP I could at least see where the harm is, but a little grinder mission is making you ill?