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Boff Grinders: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
starkofthenorth
Member Posts: 3 Arc User
We all knew a new exploit would come around eventually. Well I found one and this one in particular makes me sick to my stomach.
A quick disclaimer: I don't normally participate in forum rages, much less start them but this one hits me at home. Fair warning, strong opinions ahead.
I'll start with the description.
The mission itself is exactly what the description says. You set your Boffs to stand in an area then you go to a raised platform with a good view of the arena and activate a console. A wall then appears preventing enemies from getting in or you getting out. The battle goes on with no influence from your captain at all unless you can jump like a Catian/Ferasan.
The only redeeming quality of this mission is it's intelligent map design.
My own review follows:
The following review rebutted my own, claiming "*******" like me are the ones responsible for the nerfs.
What are your thoughts, do you disagree that this kind of mission is anathema to the spirit of the Foundry? Are Dilithium rewards so important that this gets higher ratings than others?
A quick disclaimer: I don't normally participate in forum rages, much less start them but this one hits me at home. Fair warning, strong opinions ahead.
I'll start with the description.
BOFF Grinder: Feds of Fire
ST-HPEABWH69
Let your Bridge officers do the work for you. Just set your Boffs to stand on the platform in the arena, start the mission at the console and go AFK for 16-18 minutes.
This mission will teleport you from the Loremaster rock in the Klingon Academy to The Grinder Arena for some Fed killing fun.
This mission is designed to get some Dilithium painlessly and to somewhat make up for the season seven nerfs and grinds
The mission itself is exactly what the description says. You set your Boffs to stand in an area then you go to a raised platform with a good view of the arena and activate a console. A wall then appears preventing enemies from getting in or you getting out. The battle goes on with no influence from your captain at all unless you can jump like a Catian/Ferasan.
The only redeeming quality of this mission is it's intelligent map design.
My own review follows:
One star
WTF is this? This is an affront to everything the Foundry is. I am literally sickened by this. The description alone makes me ill. The act that these grinders are at the top o the list over well crafted story driven missions boggles me mind.
The following review rebutted my own, claiming "*******" like me are the ones responsible for the nerfs.
What are your thoughts, do you disagree that this kind of mission is anathema to the spirit of the Foundry? Are Dilithium rewards so important that this gets higher ratings than others?
Also known as Gingie(In game) Sskald(Gates of Sto-vo-kor)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by starkofthenorth on
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We're probably not done with how the system will work out. If it tailors to individual play time I have a feeling more people will get the idea of why they should be getting rewards from the foundry daily.
Eventually, people won't know remember how it used to be before. Things will fade. They will realize they get more Fleet marks and DL from running STFs in 10 15 minutes then afking in foundry.
In response to the heated words you got after your review, people were blaming foundry when they lost the dual rewards from Sector Exploration at S7 launch. It was "you people" then too.
As far as the grinders missions themselves, I didn't mind Battleroyal because that mission existed well before this change. Some of the other missions that sprung up after... well... at least the people who tried make me okay with it. At least try to add some show to it, you know?
Foundry Mission Database
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - Commander Rihan
The situation is still fluid though and can go either way. Varied rewards based on average play time, without the encumbering and now essentially vestigial wrapper mission, is the way to go imo.
To be honest I didn't hear about this mission before so I was just curious about the ratings. After reading them I became angry and sad... It's full of 5 stars and named one of the best missions that exist *sigh* What a slap in the face of every "serious" author who spends hours and hours in developing a storyline or whatever...
I really hope it will be banned soon.
Often, I have to be aware of my time in game or I am swallowed by the Great Grind.
Its really good being able to play quality missions and get a decent reward for it and then turn around and do another one.
My feeling is there will be those that still use grinder missions as this one, but that they are likely fewer than they were previously.
I now love having a choice between fleet actions, STFs and now Foundry missions.
Personally ... I have a few space combat missions that are patrol in style and give me that SB24 feel I love so much.
Then I toss in the story ones around those.
I am guilty of having clicked consoles but that was in the past.
Will have to ... experience ... this mission just so I can rant alongside my fellow Warrior of Sto'Vo'Kor, however.
U.S.S. Maelstrom, NCC-71417 (Constitution III-class/flagship) --- Fleet Admiral Hauk' --|-- Dahar Master Hauk --- I.K.S. qu'In 'an bortaS (D7-class / flagship)
Look at the opening page of the list of TOP rated KDF missions, with the exception of one by XR-377, they're all grinders (a good chunk of which don't qualify, amusingly).
This shouldn't be what we're about. Quote from Dstahl:
Grinders are none of the above. Of course Cryptic won't lift a finger to stop these. Report all you want, but it'll end up like the one-clicks, with absolutely nothing done about it and then they'll blame us again for "not policing" the missions as if we have the power to do anything but flag something and say "look at this one Cryptic."
There's also a fed version of it. This version doesn't qualify for the daily so it has only about 10 plays.
Until foundry missions are dropping equal rewards to a STF in Loot and reward for time spent missions like this will be with us
Foundry missions must be reviewed by cryptic and a panel of authors and quality rewards included into them just like the story missions end reward is ,then the mission locked
any mission not reviewed will have the current sub standard rewards
it would work like this
a cryptic selected panel of authors reviews missions and reccomends to cryptic which are quality missions,cryptic then reviews the mission adds rewards and places it in a reviewed catagory with the mission locked
what we have now is a jumbled mess
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Sadly, you are correct. Nothing will be done about it, so like before, we must adapt the best we can. Kirkfat did and designed his Gladiator mission to use as a way to advertise his other missions. I am doing the same with a short story, heavy combat/loot drop mission I am working on. It's not my preferred method of Foundry authoring, but if it gets more folks aware of my Spawn of Medusa series, so be it. I also send rewards to those who complete my 5 part series and leave written reviews so I know who they are. They consist of rare lockbox ships, consoles, doff packs, cxp or fleet bonus chips, etc. Jut my way of thanking folks for playing my entire series.
My new mission won't just be a blow everything up mission, it will have some tasks as well as my other dailies did, as well as a little story and maps to hopefully keep it a little interesting. Anyway, that's my solution to the issue for now. I'm just more concerned about it getting flagged immediately as a non-qualifier, but I am sure it will be long enough to qualify.
Foundry authors, hold your heads up and be proud of your work, from the amount of plays on the story missions, I still think they are favored more by the non-grinding community in STO. You will always have the grind it fast group, regardless of the rules.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
by Duke-of-Rock Available on Holodeck
Cryptic is going to be adding rewards as well as making all the spotlight missions available soon. The author must surrender any editing capablity once it happens, but I for one am looking forward to having a mission in the list. Hopefully, the list will build nicely with time as soon as they get the rewards system sorted out.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
by Duke-of-Rock Available on Holodeck
New and improved, eh ?
I'm disappointed in myself for not thinking of that first.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
What I don't like is the system that encourages these types of missions.
I dont see it as an exploit. Taste differs, and if anyone likes it this way more than others. And since it is taking its 20-30 min as well ... why bother.
See the fleet projects that need 200k Dil per project ... for what? Well, the Boff grind seems to be a perfect answer for that.
As awkward as some of the storys are for me ... why should I blame the author for what I feel as bad taste? Production of these missions consumes a huge bunch of time, so if I like it or not - this is what I do respect.
I'd rather encourage the fuzzy middle-ground of people who MIGHT want story to actually pay attention and engage than to try to make rules.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I've done this mission more than once, and it's never blocked me into the console area. A wall appears, but you can walk around it quite easily.
For what ???
What is the violation that you'd be reporting it for ???
As has been said, making a lot of rules about it will just put it back in its former state of neglect. So, tell your stories, make them as grand and involved as you want. But it would seem that if you also want to get your name in front of the players so that they'll look for your quality content, and (to be ferengi for a moment) to gain a steady flow of tips for your efforts, it's probably going to necessitate making a shallow pkew-pkew mission that drops a lot of loot for those that aren't feeling 100% engaged today.
Federation missions that are copied/pasted and called Klingon missions are a slap in the face to KDF players. And yet that's what we're given.
Console clickers, I'd agree were an abomination. But this is not. It takes time. There is effort involved. Not a lot, but some.
I did Chart/Explore the B'Tran Cluster every day for months during S6. An awful lot of those missions were...Kill 5 groups. You could walk to the area and go AFK for 2 minutes. Walk to the next area, 5 seconds away and go AFK again. Repeat 3 more times and you're done. Is that really so different from this mission?
Then again, I'm whining about the people who whine, so I guess I'm no better.
But to the question at hand. First, I played the KDF version of this mission (I actually think there is more than one, since in the one I played, some of the enemy feds got around the barrier to me and started shooting me). I could have gone around and helped my BOFFS, but I decided to play it like the mission said and just let them do the work. It was kinda fun actually, made me feel like an actual captain who actually sent someone else to do the work. Kinda makes me wish there was a good way to do this with the cryptic missions, just get to near an encounter and then send the boffs forward to do the job. Anyway, I had fun, so I gave it a good rating. I never saw anything about a five star rating had to be for great plotline and stunning special effects. And I will say that if I come across a mission that did have those things and no significant problems otherwise, I'd give it 5 stars, no problem.
Second, I have nothing against "story" missions, I'd love to play them, and time permitting, I will. But that's the problem, I don't have time. I have a kid, a wife, a job, stuff to do. Most of the time, I can only play STO for an hour or two a day, and I hardly think I'm alone in that. So, I have to play what is going to get me the most bang for my buck, and something that doesnt' require all of my attenction, just in case I have to run and get my kid, or my wife wants something, or I have to do the dishes or mow the lawn, etc, etc, etc, as the King would say.Now, if my stars align and I have a free hour or two, maybe I will try a "story" mission, I've got a list of ones I want to try actually, and if they're good, I'll give it a 5 star. But for day to day stuff, I'm going to play something like this, cause I'm saving up for a couple of ships and fleet stuff too, and that all adds up you know?
By the way, if anyone here knows of a good mission, please let me know. I may not get to it for a while, but I will add it to my list. In game mail is @Malkarris, good for both FED and KDF. And even if you say it takes thirty minutes, will I'm still putting it off until I have time, because I'd like to not speed read my way through it.
Third, to all those crying exploit, exactly how is this an exploit? Because its a basically do nothing mission? Well, that's probably so, however, an exploit means I'm getting something out of this that I wouldn't be usually. Its not like I can log on to another character in STO to do something while my BOFFs kill stuff. I have to stay in game and looking at the screen, just in case I need to do something (see the leakers I menctioned above). I can't do doffing while I wait for the mission to complete, and even if the mission takes less that 30 minutes, I can't do another one and get the wrapper's reward until that timer has run down. Quite honestly, if they were going to reduce the timer to 30 minutes anyway, I don't understand the point of the missions qualification being like this. Just make a mission that has you load four rooms, with all the lag that would take at least 15 minutes, even if all your ar doign is running from one end of the room to another to click a console (I might make one like that, run around ESD, clicking consoles, like a race, that would be fun in a group, if you could make it like that). I'll also add in the fact that most space ESTFs give the same amount of base dilithium and are designed to be completed in 15 minutes, with a good team. And with a good team, you can do eight of them, which also fills up your dilithium quote for the day in only about 2 hours, maybe 3 given that ground is a bit longer. Or just play ISE, CSE, and KASE, and maybe KAGE if you need a bit more time until the timer on ISE runs out, and repeat.
And hey, what about Cryptics mission to get the Breen ship? That takes what, five minutes, to get 40 pictures? Think about how much dilithium it would take to do that.
Fourth, let look at what Cryptic has said about all this stuff. In some ask Cryptic or dev blog, the D man himself said that what they are shooting for is for the average player to make his 8,000 dilithium cap in four hours. The daily officer report mission gives 960 dilithium, and can be repeated once every half hour, which comes to a bit less than 8000 in 4 hours. So at this point, it looks like working as intended. Now, could this be better and have some sort of sliding scale so that however long or short a foundry mission is, that is how much dilithium you would be rewarded, and one four hours long would just give you about 8,000, yeah, that would be nice, but I don't think they have the tech necessary to track that and not reward players for just sitting in an empty room for 4 hours.
And finally, fifth, get use to it. I've written fanfiction (which is basically what this stuff is), so I know already what you guys seem to need to learn. You craft this wonderful piece of work, your baby, and set it loose in the world, confident that it will take the people by storm, and in five minutes, ten people completely trash it and everyone else seems to ignore it. And of course, you want to defend your baby, which is perfect in your eyes. And so you take a course of action, calling for nerfs and what not. Well, welcome to being an author. If you're looking for job satification, don't come here. Treasure the players who do come to your missions and play them and give you a 5 star rating, and as for the rest, learn to roll with the punches. I'd be willing to bet real money that if Cryptic's missions were put up for the officer report rewards, the only one anyone would play is "Spin the Wheel." Of course, it probably wouldn't qualify since there is no one to shoot.
Even if they banned this one mission, and all the other kill X number of guys missions, no one is going to go flocking to your three hour epic. They'll go back to STFs and fleet actions, because that's where the marks and dilithium is.
And of course, all this is IMHO, and that with a fiver will get you a good cup of coffee. But I hope some of you will at least take a minute to breath and think about what I said.
Nouveau riche LTS member
So I read this, twice. Well... While it isn't the preferred method of foundry mission many authors want to see popular, I totally see your points...
I may not play such missions but I can't fault those that do given your argument.
I don't think any one thing has caused this, anything overly predictable. Sure in hindsight EVERYTHING is obvious but:
The game starts off with severely limited story content, near no end game but PvP. Then we get the STFs, which are difficult to play even for some fleets at the time and see very little players through. We get diplomacy (*snicker*) and exploration, but it is... well... scan 5 things... destroy Borg Looking for relics of their 3rd Dynasty...
We get the foundry as something, near anything, we can do to tell some stories and give a little story content in addition to the season updates which, at the time, were mostly just 5 new episodes.
Then we switch over to better endgame and the different rewards for F2P. The exploration marks that we all farmed gets replaced by DL. DL gets put everywhere. Suddenly there is something we get. Something more than 5 exploration marks, or other random marks that are... lets face it, worthless. Suddenly there is worth. Suddenly we get worth with tips. There is an option now, since time in game is worth something, that players get a little more reward than just story. As there is actually things to do or that require time in game they need some reward for time spent now. But, as always, players realize there is an easy way to get stuff based off the old system. They brake it, some better than others. (Battle Royal for fed is not new and that's okay with me, and I didn't mind Nagus dailies because they were polished an simple ways to do it) There are still poor clickers, everyone sees the groups outside of the ESD transporter room. But, they were only the few that were needed.
Now, we get a system that works for the purpose of evenly giving rewards for individual foundry missions as if they are STFs or Fleet Actions or any other aspects of content. Like the old double down 2000 or so DL rewards from Exploration (a hang over from before) the old system in place just to give something is changed. The old loophole is closed, and congress debates until the fiscal cli-... err... people are suddenly upended as the system isn't as easy to get the same rewards. There it has been so long, what it was seemed to be designed as a simple way to get DL is removed. Many people thought it was as intended that way. Now, as it shifts to even rewarding there are the growing pains as they try to get it back the way it was. In doing that, we're flooded with missions attempting to make that change. Fill that hole. It's a lot harder, there are a lot of failures or jumping in to make something that works since the one or two that were really easy aren't there anymore...
Our current end result, lists of mission that either only tailor to (or have failed tailoring through) a vast majority of players who aren't interested in playing the content, but perhaps getting the rewards or avoiding the time spend in other aspects of content (which, I still don't understand. People who say they don't have the time to put in to the grind are now needing to spend 15 minutes at least in a mission to get the rewards. Aren't those the same times and rewards for the other content in game that takes 15 minutes? I can respect you don't have a lot of time as others for grinding in game, but, you're still spending the same amount of time in game.)
Our current state at this point is lists of missions attempting to make that easy gain again, but limits out near all content for which the reward system is being tailored to provide to.
The progress to this point is convoluted, but when STO launched it was awesome space combat. That's it. All of it. I mean, ground, sure... but ground pre S4 was... painful. This has been a wide changing road that has caused problems as it went. If cryptic had never offered the three mission daily this would no doubt be calmer now, but, there would still be some problems. And they added those things so that players in the system are no longer punished for playing foundry with their game time. Looking back, at least we have seen changes. Big changes. Thats a sign of life and growth I love to have in an MMO.
I don't mind these missions existing, but, I think it is a problem that these missions are blocking honest content, content that only has 33 plays after 1 year, or 340 after 2.
TL : DR
We got here down a long road of evolving game changes, which has resulted with the mission list crowded by ones designed to be most efficient for getting reward mission rewards.
If changes show anything, it's not going to last so long as work is still done on it.
Nothing wrong with the new grinder missions if they put polish on it and don't block the Story Based content the reward was designed for.
Is it pretty? No, but neither are most of the Cryptic missions that a. have no story and b. cater to the LCD.
Mostly off subject, but thank you for this reply, not because you agreed with my points, but that you took the time to consider them.
More on topic, I wouldn't mind seeing those story type missions be more popular, I just don't see it happening with what I know of internet culture.
And just to put in another two bits, because I'm chatty today, I think more people might try story missions if they were shorter. Considering the audience, and writing for it, will probably get you more feedback and plays, though I can't say any of it will be what you want. In this case, an author might consider the audience to want something short and sweet, that doesn't require a lot of brain power. Something that comes to mind is the current crop of sit coms on TV, like Friends, or How I met your Mother. Or given the amout of action needed for a foundry mission to qualify, maybe some action cartoon or anime would be a better guide. In either case, something in the 22 minute range, plus commercials. Going more with the cartoon angle, that would be an opening fight or conflict, some dialogue to explaine the fight and continue with what needs to be done, and the the grand battle at the end to form Voltron and finish off the bad guy of the week. Will this be deep and meaningful? Maybe not, but consider your audience, what are they looking for? From the complaints here, Dilithium. I doubt any of them would complain with they got their dilithium with saving a pretty space princess.
Nouveau riche LTS member
And finally, fifth, get use to it. I've written fanfiction (which is basically what this stuff is), so I know already what you guys seem to need to learn. You craft this wonderful piece of work, your baby, and set it loose in the world, confident that it will take the people by storm, and in five minutes, ten people completely trash it and everyone else seems to ignore it. And of course, you want to defend your baby, which is perfect in your eyes. And so you take a course of action, calling for nerfs and what not. Well, welcome to being an author. If you're looking for job satification, don't come here. Treasure the players who do come to your missions and play them and give you a 5 star rating, and as for the rest, learn to roll with the punches. I'd be willing to bet real money that if Cryptic's missions were put up for the officer report rewards, the only one anyone would play is "Spin the Wheel." Of course, it probably wouldn't qualify since there is no one to shoot
As a fan-fic author/foundry creator I definitely know about "get used to it".
One, not everyone will like your mission, even if they are striving for a good story based mission. I've had reviews from "best mission ever" (5 stars)
to "not realistic" (1-star for joo).
Two, a lot of us foundry authors have had to deal with the "drive-by" sabotage 1-star ratings as well. So a lot of us are used to such things.
I personally just try to adapt when I can. Do I want everyone to play my missions? Of course I do, but it isn't realistic, so I just go with the flow. Will I make a more
"grindy/loot grab" mission to get in a plug for my series and other missions?
Absolutely!
A lot of authors are more griped about the mission selection system than the grind missions themselves. Heck, even I took advantage of a clickie mish on occassion when my fleet was grinding to the next tier. Another thing to consider on the loot grab missions is that a lot of players are being tapped out of EC's to keep the reputation system going, so the lootgrabs are ways to replenish their bank account in game. I know this from experience helping fleetmates with credits who are tapped out. It is to be expected that the lootgrabs will be popular to some folks. Are they good story missions or fan fiction?
Absolutely not, nor are they intended to be. They are doing what they were designed for, just like the clickie missions did.
As such, I will build a daily grind/lootgrab mission as well, but with custom maps and some story to it to plug my other missions. I will adapt. Until there is a better selection process in the foundry mission menu, that is my choice.
Don't be too critical of authors who are incensed by these missions though. When you spend countless, countless hours building maps, storylines, and effects that no one else has done, it is only human to be displeased to see missions that take 2 hours or less to make on top of the main selection list. Until that changes, there will always be flaring tempers in the forums, we just need to try to take it into the proper context and not always classify complaining as "whining".
Happy Holidays everyone.
Duke-of-Rock
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
by Duke-of-Rock Available on Holodeck
Sorry for double posting, but by the time I finish with one post, about three more people have posted after it. I need to type faster.
Specifically to your point about time spent, and specifically about myself, its not that I don't have time for the grind, its that my time is limited and I have to pick what I want to do. Lets say I have an hour to play in a day. These days I play some of the winter stuff, which takes about 15 minutes if I time it right. Then I take a look around. If someone is forming a team for STFs I usually try and put my hat into that ring, and that's another 15 to 30 minutes. And now I only have about 15 to 30 minutes left, and I still need some more dilithium for fleet stuff or saving for a new c-store ship. Before season 7, I'd do a three click clicky and then ship out to Defera for the rescue prisoner's missions, both the mine one and the Breen ship one. Now, I pick a simple looking foundry mission, which gives me the same as the Breen ones, and takes about the same time. The advantage of the officer reports is they also give fleet marks, so if I need fleet marks, and who doesn't, I'm going to pick that. On the other hand, if I get to tier 5 in Omega rep, I'd probably pick another STF to run for the marks, since I think I need those more. Now, if I suddenly find myself with nothing else to do for that hour of game time, if I don't have a pressing need for dilithium or marks, or whatever else in the game, and yes I admit that I am putting that need in myself, then I might go play an hour long mission in the foundry. That is my complaint about time, not that I don't have enough to grind, but I don?t' have enough to both grind and do something fun, like a foundry mission.
As for your TL;DR, IMHO, I think you are missing the point about the officer report mission. It is not designed for story missions, it is designed to be one way of maxing out on the daily dilithium. You can play 8 30 minute foundry missions and get your limit, or you can play 8 STFs and get your limit, or you can mix and match and add in some doff missions and get your limit. To me, looking at it, that is what that missions is for, another way to grind. And like STFs, it can be a fun way to grind, depending on your definition of fun. Now, if this was to be a story reward, the officer report missions would be something like what it was, a daily mission, but it would reward 8,000 dilithium, 50-400 fleet marks, depending on what cryptic feels like, and any mission would have to be an hour long and have at least ten screens of text. Actually, lets make it simple and say that it has to be a current or previously featured foundry mission. That way, the best foundry mission gets the best reward. And that is probably going to be the ONLY way you get the masses to play a story based foundry mission. And they will probably not leave any comments or good ratings.
Again, I'll point to my last post. I know most authors want to write the next War and Peace or the next Tale of Two Cities, or the next Best of Both Worlds, in this case, or what have you. And fanfiction, or the foundry, can let you do that, and that can be good. But if you want people to play your missions, and maybe give you tips, you have left the world of fanfiction where you can write anything. You have entered the world of published fiction, where you are selling something. And the first rule of published fiction is know your audience, aka the players. The players for the most part, don't want the next Best of Both Worlds, they want something quick and dirty. And you can do quick and dirty with a story, look at any cartoon these days. Well, repeating myself, but I hope you get what I am saying. You have to choose what you want to create, fanfiction, and be content with the few players who come and look at what you have, or published fiction and cater to the players for your payment.
Nouveau riche LTS member
My character Tsin'xing