If you think I don't pay for things in the game, you're way off the mark. My collector's box, my HEC, my Steamrunner, both of my Nebulas, both of my Excelsiors, my Fed DN, my fleet Tor'Kaht, my tier 4 Tor'Kaht (Which I purchased while it was a Vor'Cha skin), the BoP I purchased just for the quad cannons, my 700 day vet status--they all beg to differ.
And that's just the stuff I've purchased on my account...
I'm hardly ignoring the business aspect of the game. I'm saying the business aspect that you're envisioning makes no sense. If you give the population a free ship that does things that nothing else in the KDF fleet can do, why would they then turn around and buy the bundle from the c-store?
If you give them a nice-looking ship that's reasonably decent (unlike the Bortas) at a basic role (Battlecruiser) without anything special, people will think "Wow, this is nice. But I wish it had----"..
And that's when you give them what they ask for, and then they'll buy it.
The Bortas was a disaster. But it was a disaster because:
1) They didn't listen. They gave us a ship that didn't play like a KDF ship. It played like a Fed Starcruiser with token canon slots that were useless.
2) They didn't listen. When they released it as a C-store ship, they didn't fix the problems that existed in the first place that made everyone hate it.
And then, because of the above, they blame the playerbase for not buying something that didn't appeal to them at all?
That's not how you run a business, virtual or otherwise. This is coming from someone that's managed a small retail storefront for 12 years...
and you think, in a market flooded with cruisers, that another one is a good idea-when the demand's for something else, and you say MY model doesn't make sense???
So, you want to give them a ship that fills holes in the KDF ship line. That's awfully noble of you, but where does that leave room for a C-store ship? Let alone a pack of C-store ships?
It doesn't.
That's why you give the FREE ship as a "ship that has potential", but if they want to fill that potential, they have to buy the C-store variant(s).
You keep comparing it to the Bortas as a reason why it'd fail, except it'd be nothing like the Bortas in the areas that made the Bortas fail. Bortas failed because it was a fat, slow, useless pig that was decent at NOTHING..and the C-store ships weren't much better. A battlecruiser-based K'Vort would share NOTHING with the Bortas except it's seating. The seating on the Bortas isn't why it failed.
Seriously? LOOK AT DEMAND. there's no demand for another cruiser in the KDF, and what desire there is, isn't for a cruiser that looks, but doesn't play, like a Bird of Prey-the demand is for a K'tinga, or a D-7 based variant in the cruiser side, with some for an improved Negh'var or Vor'cha.
Which is why the C-store ships would branch off from the FREE cruiser to become things that people would actually pay for, unlike the Bortas variants..
If you give people everything they need for free, there's no reason for them to buy it. Again, that's noble, but it's not how you run a business..
The problem you're missing, is that aside from a single episode (and one line IN that episode)
Two times (at least), in the very episode this event will be "celebrating"..I guess that doesn't mean much tho, huh?
"Hey, let's base an event on Yesterday's Enterprise--and then make it NOTHING like Yesterday's Enterprise!"
Brilliant idea there..
net result is likely to be the same reaction the Bortas got-only this time it'll kill the project after the event's over-nothing to salvage, congratulations mission fail.
Except it shares none of the Bortas' faults. You know, the things that made the Bortas fail. Like being a huge, lumbering, slow whale...
The ship needs to be tailored to demand,
The C-STORE variants need to be tailored to demand, because that's where Cryptic/PWE are going to be making their money. NOT on the free one. The free one needs to be little more then a toy to whet the public's desire for something that looks as nice, but is a little more specialized.
Just like the Odyssey.
Your model doesn't do that. It's like putting a Ferrari body on a delivery-truck chassis, then wondering why neither ferrari drivers, nor delivery truck drivers, want it.
But it will make people who like the styling go buy a Ferrari, and the people who need a delivery truck go buy a delivery truck...
And you know this how? Can I take a look into your magic portal of future sight?
If it looked like a cruiser, it wouldn't be.
The root of my problem with your proposal is expectation. it looks like a Big bird of prey, people are going to want it to ACT like one
Put an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer and a Ticonderoga-class cruiser side-by-side and tell me they don't look alike.
Since when do aesthetics define a role?
I have not seen a ship in this game that failed because it looked like it should've been something else. The Bortas failed because it didn't perform. Plain as day. It didn't perform well in it's free version and it didn't perform well in it's c-store versions. It had no real purpose, even in it's c-store platforms. That's why it failed.
as to the rest; yes, it didn't perform...up the level of a KDF Battle Cruiser.
No, it didn't perform at all. Period. It was terrible.
It's not even classified as a battlecruiser. It's classified as a "Heavy Battlecruiser", as is the Negh'Var. So one would have expectations of a relatively slow-turning ship to begin with. But the Bortas wasn't even relatively slow-turning. It's flat immobile.
The comments that were common when the Bortas were released were "Why would the KDF operate a ship this big?"
"Expectations" were for the ship to not exist at all..
I find myself agreeing with patrickngo's argument. The market for a battlecruiser is pretty tepid, unless it's for, as patrickngo said, a K't'inga or Vor'cha type battlecruiser.
When it comes to the science ship concept. . .I don't personally care if it's a 'dedicated science ship' or a BoP with a strong sci bias (aux power, etc). At this point, KDF needs competitive sci options. . .so as long as the ship stats have something to offer beyond what the Vo'quv, Varanus, and existing BoPs, it should sell fairly well. There's quite a wide-open field when it comes to that.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
I find myself agreeing with patrickngo's argument. The market for a battlecruiser is pretty tepid, unless it's for, as patrickngo said, a K't'inga or Vor'cha type battlecruiser.
When it comes to the science ship concept. . .I don't personally care if it's a 'dedicated science ship' or a BoP with a strong sci bias (aux power, etc). At this point, KDF needs competitive sci options. . .so as long as the ship stats have something to offer beyond what the Vo'quv, Varanus, and existing BoPs, it should sell fairly well. There's quite a wide-open field when it comes to that.
Share your concern on Sci ships, we do have a lack of em. I personally dislike the Varanus, I even consider it a sub-standard ship for the KDF. Wish we had more choice on pure Sci ships like the Feds have. For that reason I got myself a Temporal Sci ship and have to be honest, the thing is sweet! Just a pity it's a lockbox ship and not a KDF-factioned ship...
Oh dear, I just posted in this thread a couple of days ago and reading it now makes my head hurt so much I just want to leave again.:(
Just my two cents regarding what appears to be the current main focus of the thread.
Pro Battlecruiser:
-it was referred to as such
-it was used in compbat situations several times
-it maneuverd as a battlecruiser in every episode it was in (unless it was stainding still)
Con Battlecruiser:
-can't think of anything right now
Pro Science ship
-Cryptic made the Nebula one even though they could've just made it a cruiser
-in DS9 "Penumbra", a K'Vort was used for intelligence operations
-K'Vorts were not used as frontline ships during the Dominion War, just like Intrepids and Novas
[however given the ships' forward-focused armaments they mught have just as well been helpless against swarms of small JH fighters and not used for that reason; K'vorts with their forward heavy guns always reminded me of a Jagdtiger in space]
Con Science ships:
-it would mean the Klingons regularly used groups of science ships in combat, which seems pointless
My personal position
I agree there's a lack of a science-focused ships...I mean there's a reason why I made a fuss about it over the last couple of years and two threads over the last couple of months.
However I'm not sure the K'vort would be ideal ship for this function.
I'd like it very much if the K'Vort were a science-focused cruiser with a blue LtC.
It would probably work very well as a modernization of the older version that was used as a combat ship in the TNG era.
The Vor'cha most likely took the K'vort's place and the existing ships were retrofitted for other purposes.
But as a ship that's first and foremost a science ship?
Such a request reminds me of the idea to make the Nebula and/or Ambassador an escort because there were not enough escorts around.
It just makes no sense to me to just grab one of the next ships in line and force it into a function where there is a deficiency in the ship roster ATM.
I'll grab an aspirin now and leave this thread alone again.:(
The K'vort is only a few metres bigger than both the Hegh'ta and the HoH'SuS, it'll probably just be another Heavy BoP
Play my missions on Holodeck! Return of Ja'Dok Series (6 Part Series) Enemy of the Exile Series (4 Part Series) Task Force Ja'Dok Series (3 Part Series)
The K'vort is only a few metres bigger than both the Hegh'ta and the HoH'SuS, it'll probably just be another Heavy BoP
Wasn't it as big as the Galaxy?
I think there's not much place for speculation here, as I suspect Cryptic will make two similar ships for both factions, like they did with Odyssey and Bortas. The Ambassador is going to be yet another Cruiser, so I'd expect K'Vort to be a Battlecruiser (cannons and cloak at the cost of some HP and Shields).
Hull: 25k
Shields: 0.9
Weapons: 4/3
Crew: 100
Boffs:
- Uni Com
- Uni Lt
- Uni Lt
- Uni Lt
- Uni Ens
Devices: 2
Consoles: Eng 3, Sci 2, Tac 4
Turn: 18
Power: +10 Weapons, +10 Engines
Battle Cloak
Can equip dual cannons
So you will gimp the ship from having access to the second best abilities in the tree. Nice. And in doing so render this ship useless to accomplishing anything in any class.
Please go have a look at all the career Lt CMDR skills you just obliterated.
Whats so special about having 3x LT?
Half the ships at end game already have the 2x LT and 1x LT CMDR. Wheres the benefit of downsizing the LT CMDR to LT?
So you will gimp the ship from having access to the second best abilities in the tree. Nice. And in doing so render this ship useless to accomplishing anything in any class.
Please go have a look at all the career Lt CMDR skills you just obliterated.
Whats so special about having 3x LT?
Half the ships at end game already have the 2x LT and 1x LT CMDR. Wheres the benefit of downsizing the LT CMDR to LT?
Dual cannons? Are you serious?
Corrected... that was meant to be a Lt. Com.
I know we lose the ensign for the rest to be universal but I think it's about time we get a full boff lineup.
The K'Vort needs to be a hybrid escort, that is developed according to the mechanics of the game and not the literary fallacy of a paperback.
The KDF needs escorts. I am not going to emphasize this again.
If we end up with another cruiser of any configuration, I have absolutely no cause to fly another battlecruiser.
I have three already.
I do not need a carrier. The numbers speak for themselves.
And there was a K'Vort during the Dominion Wars. It was known as the K'Vort-cha
Agreed. We need escorts. We need more escorts so we have more selection regarding boff layouts, without having to resort to using a BoP as a stand-in 'escort', when it's not that strong.
We need escorts with a sci bias, like the MVAM and whatnot. We need a 5-tac console escort. . .make it expensive, I don't care, just give us the option for one beyond the JHAS.
It's either that, or buff the BoPs (more hull, etc) and scrap the Raptors like the failed class they'll be.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
a ka'vort class with 7 weapons slots, scencor anylase, plus a commander universal, liutantent commander univeral and 3 liutantents an ensin univeral would make for a very neat klinon escort/science hybirde while still offering enough room to have one or two engineneers onboard depending on set up.
Comments
And that's just the stuff I've purchased on my account...
I'm hardly ignoring the business aspect of the game. I'm saying the business aspect that you're envisioning makes no sense. If you give the population a free ship that does things that nothing else in the KDF fleet can do, why would they then turn around and buy the bundle from the c-store?
If you give them a nice-looking ship that's reasonably decent (unlike the Bortas) at a basic role (Battlecruiser) without anything special, people will think "Wow, this is nice. But I wish it had----"..
And that's when you give them what they ask for, and then they'll buy it.
The Bortas was a disaster. But it was a disaster because:
1) They didn't listen. They gave us a ship that didn't play like a KDF ship. It played like a Fed Starcruiser with token canon slots that were useless.
2) They didn't listen. When they released it as a C-store ship, they didn't fix the problems that existed in the first place that made everyone hate it.
And then, because of the above, they blame the playerbase for not buying something that didn't appeal to them at all?
That's not how you run a business, virtual or otherwise. This is coming from someone that's managed a small retail storefront for 12 years...
So, you want to give them a ship that fills holes in the KDF ship line. That's awfully noble of you, but where does that leave room for a C-store ship? Let alone a pack of C-store ships?
It doesn't.
That's why you give the FREE ship as a "ship that has potential", but if they want to fill that potential, they have to buy the C-store variant(s).
You keep comparing it to the Bortas as a reason why it'd fail, except it'd be nothing like the Bortas in the areas that made the Bortas fail. Bortas failed because it was a fat, slow, useless pig that was decent at NOTHING..and the C-store ships weren't much better. A battlecruiser-based K'Vort would share NOTHING with the Bortas except it's seating. The seating on the Bortas isn't why it failed.
Which is why the C-store ships would branch off from the FREE cruiser to become things that people would actually pay for, unlike the Bortas variants..
If you give people everything they need for free, there's no reason for them to buy it. Again, that's noble, but it's not how you run a business..
Two times (at least), in the very episode this event will be "celebrating"..I guess that doesn't mean much tho, huh?
"Hey, let's base an event on Yesterday's Enterprise--and then make it NOTHING like Yesterday's Enterprise!"
Brilliant idea there..
Except it shares none of the Bortas' faults. You know, the things that made the Bortas fail. Like being a huge, lumbering, slow whale...
The C-STORE variants need to be tailored to demand, because that's where Cryptic/PWE are going to be making their money. NOT on the free one. The free one needs to be little more then a toy to whet the public's desire for something that looks as nice, but is a little more specialized.
Just like the Odyssey.
But it will make people who like the styling go buy a Ferrari, and the people who need a delivery truck go buy a delivery truck...
And you know this how? Can I take a look into your magic portal of future sight?
Put an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer and a Ticonderoga-class cruiser side-by-side and tell me they don't look alike.
Since when do aesthetics define a role?
I have not seen a ship in this game that failed because it looked like it should've been something else. The Bortas failed because it didn't perform. Plain as day. It didn't perform well in it's free version and it didn't perform well in it's c-store versions. It had no real purpose, even in it's c-store platforms. That's why it failed.
No, it didn't perform at all. Period. It was terrible.
It's not even classified as a battlecruiser. It's classified as a "Heavy Battlecruiser", as is the Negh'Var. So one would have expectations of a relatively slow-turning ship to begin with. But the Bortas wasn't even relatively slow-turning. It's flat immobile.
The comments that were common when the Bortas were released were "Why would the KDF operate a ship this big?"
"Expectations" were for the ship to not exist at all..
When it comes to the science ship concept. . .I don't personally care if it's a 'dedicated science ship' or a BoP with a strong sci bias (aux power, etc). At this point, KDF needs competitive sci options. . .so as long as the ship stats have something to offer beyond what the Vo'quv, Varanus, and existing BoPs, it should sell fairly well. There's quite a wide-open field when it comes to that.
Share your concern on Sci ships, we do have a lack of em. I personally dislike the Varanus, I even consider it a sub-standard ship for the KDF. Wish we had more choice on pure Sci ships like the Feds have. For that reason I got myself a Temporal Sci ship and have to be honest, the thing is sweet! Just a pity it's a lockbox ship and not a KDF-factioned ship...
Just my two cents regarding what appears to be the current main focus of the thread.
Pro Battlecruiser:
-it was referred to as such
-it was used in compbat situations several times
-it maneuverd as a battlecruiser in every episode it was in (unless it was stainding still)
Con Battlecruiser:
-can't think of anything right now
Pro Science ship
-Cryptic made the Nebula one even though they could've just made it a cruiser
-in DS9 "Penumbra", a K'Vort was used for intelligence operations
-K'Vorts were not used as frontline ships during the Dominion War, just like Intrepids and Novas
[however given the ships' forward-focused armaments they mught have just as well been helpless against swarms of small JH fighters and not used for that reason; K'vorts with their forward heavy guns always reminded me of a Jagdtiger in space]
Con Science ships:
-it would mean the Klingons regularly used groups of science ships in combat, which seems pointless
My personal position
I agree there's a lack of a science-focused ships...I mean there's a reason why I made a fuss about it over the last couple of years and two threads over the last couple of months.
However I'm not sure the K'vort would be ideal ship for this function.
I'd like it very much if the K'Vort were a science-focused cruiser with a blue LtC.
It would probably work very well as a modernization of the older version that was used as a combat ship in the TNG era.
The Vor'cha most likely took the K'vort's place and the existing ships were retrofitted for other purposes.
But as a ship that's first and foremost a science ship?
Such a request reminds me of the idea to make the Nebula and/or Ambassador an escort because there were not enough escorts around.
It just makes no sense to me to just grab one of the next ships in line and force it into a function where there is a deficiency in the ship roster ATM.
I'll grab an aspirin now and leave this thread alone again.:(
Return of Ja'Dok Series (6 Part Series)
Enemy of the Exile Series (4 Part Series)
Task Force Ja'Dok Series (3 Part Series)
I think there's not much place for speculation here, as I suspect Cryptic will make two similar ships for both factions, like they did with Odyssey and Bortas. The Ambassador is going to be yet another Cruiser, so I'd expect K'Vort to be a Battlecruiser (cannons and cloak at the cost of some HP and Shields).
Shields: 0.9
Weapons: 4/3
Crew: 100
Boffs:
- Uni Com
- Uni Lt Com
- Uni Lt
- Uni Lt
- Uni Ens
Devices: 2
Consoles: Eng 3, Sci 2, Tac 4
Turn: 18
Power: +10 Weapons, +10 Engines
Battle Cloak
Can equip dual cannons
≡/\≡
So you will gimp the ship from having access to the second best abilities in the tree. Nice. And in doing so render this ship useless to accomplishing anything in any class.
Please go have a look at all the career Lt CMDR skills you just obliterated.
Whats so special about having 3x LT?
Half the ships at end game already have the 2x LT and 1x LT CMDR. Wheres the benefit of downsizing the LT CMDR to LT?
Dual cannons? Are you serious?
Corrected... that was meant to be a Lt. Com.
I know we lose the ensign for the rest to be universal but I think it's about time we get a full boff lineup.
≡/\≡
The KDF needs escorts. I am not going to emphasize this again.
If we end up with another cruiser of any configuration, I have absolutely no cause to fly another battlecruiser.
I have three already.
I do not need a carrier. The numbers speak for themselves.
And there was a K'Vort during the Dominion Wars. It was known as the K'Vort-cha
That ship looks badass and I want :cool:
Rrezeth, Gorn Tactical, primary alt
Nari, Orion Science, secondary alt
Agreed. We need escorts. We need more escorts so we have more selection regarding boff layouts, without having to resort to using a BoP as a stand-in 'escort', when it's not that strong.
We need escorts with a sci bias, like the MVAM and whatnot. We need a 5-tac console escort. . .make it expensive, I don't care, just give us the option for one beyond the JHAS.
It's either that, or buff the BoPs (more hull, etc) and scrap the Raptors like the failed class they'll be.