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The K'vort, what should it be?

mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited January 2013 in Klingon Discussion
So in the current Ambassador thread, someone mentioned about the K'vort, and what it might have, so I thought it'd be good to make a thread on it here.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what it should have however.

Obviously a battlecruiser, with a standard cloak, all that kinda fun stuff, but aside from that, I'd say...let's just discuss.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Post edited by mimey2 on
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Comments

  • elandarkskyelandarksky Member Posts: 1,013 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I honestly would have thought a k'vort would be more of a heavy BoP

    Ideally I would love it to be a flightdeck escort, seeing as the KDF's much awaited ship class/type was usurped by the armitage -.-''...

    Or even a battlecloaking flight deck bop. now that would be hilarious..

    But seriously i think it (if it every comes to exist) would be a Bop/Raptor maybe even a mix of the 2, a battle cloaking raptor with a univeral boff seat or two, but gimpy shields :p
    [Combat (Self)] Your Bite deals 2378 (1475) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother.
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    As a special weapon, I think it should have the weird torpedo it fired in "Redemption" that seemed to be aimed to damage shields.

    This is what the shields on Gowron's ship looked like when they were hit by a disruptor blast:
    http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7616/vlcsnap2011071414h49m42.png
    looks pretty normal, there's a green bubble that flashes for a moment.

    This is the strange torp one of the K'vorts fired in that scene:
    http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8059/vlcsnap2011071414h50m03.png
    http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6018/vlcsnap2011071414h50m16.png
    It's not just a green Photon Torpedo, it's something quite different.

    And this is what the BortaS' shields did after they were hit by the torpedo:
    http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1593/vlcsnap2011071414h50m28.png
    http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1943/vlcsnap2011071414h50m32.png
    http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2369/vlcsnap2011071414h50m34.png
    http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6422/vlcsnap2011071414h50m37.png
    Not so standard any more.
    And after that the port shields were reported down both by Data who observed that battle and one of the officers on the Bortas.

    So how about a torpedo that does a portion of its damage not as kinetic but as an energy weapon?:)
  • eldarion79eldarion79 Member Posts: 1,679 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I say no to Big BOP and say yes to original K'vort class design.
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    misterde3 wrote: »
    As a special weapon, I think it should have the weird torpedo it fired in "Redemption" that seemed to be aimed to damage shields.

    This is what the shields on Gowron's ship looked like when they were hit by a disruptor blast:
    http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7616/vlcsnap2011071414h49m42.png
    looks pretty normal, there's a green bubble that flashes for a moment.

    This is the strange torp one of the K'vorts fired in that scene:
    http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8059/vlcsnap2011071414h50m03.png
    http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6018/vlcsnap2011071414h50m16.png
    It's not just a green Photon Torpedo, it's something quite different.

    And this is what the BortaS' shields did after they were hit by the torpedo:
    http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1593/vlcsnap2011071414h50m28.png
    http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1943/vlcsnap2011071414h50m32.png
    http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2369/vlcsnap2011071414h50m34.png
    http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6422/vlcsnap2011071414h50m37.png
    Not so standard any more.
    And after that the port shields were reported down both by Data who observed that battle and one of the officers on the Bortas.

    So how about a torpedo that does a portion of its damage not as kinetic but as an energy weapon?:)

    That IS very interesting I admit. Maybe it'd do less kinetic, but have a good amount of disruptor damage done as well?
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Ultimately I agree with Eldarion. Simply resizing an existing model is an utterly daft and shamefully lazy way to design a new ship. If you're gonna make a K'Vort, create a proper new design.

    To be honest the very existence of the K'Vort in fannon is something I regard as an idiot, OCD* solution to a problem that would have been better solved by retconning or flat out ignoring. Just because the TNG effects crew couldn't be arsed (or couldn't afford) to keep scale and/or perspective consistent in their composite shots doesn't mean we have to take that absolutely literally no matter how stupid the explanation you're forced to come up with may be. It's like trying to enforce an in-universe reason why DS9 could actually change size from shot to shot.

    So sure, if want a "K'Vort" in the game, go for it. But make it a unique model with a vaguely B'Rel-ish profile, not just a straight up resizing of the B'Rel. And no, resizing with a few token details kitbashed into a different scale does not count as a new design.

    *Not equating idiocy with OCD, just saying that in this case they're doubled up.


    ...All that flame-bait said:

    @misterde3: That looks a heck of a lot like an in-game plasma torp. In fact, I remember reading fan speculation years and years ago that the original TSFS B'Rel's torps were actually plasma, based on their own unusual "fuzzy ball of lightning" appearance that was inconsistent with the standard movie-era torp effect (and also the abandoned "stolen Romulan ship" idea that informed the BOP's design).

    @elandarksky: If they do just fudge it completely and use a scaled-up B'Rel, then I'd totally agree with you: make 'em Raptors at most. If they make a new design like they should IMO, ten it could be anything from a raptor to a heavy cruiser. As noted above the FVX department was never really big on consistency: they're all over the place from one ep to the next. I'd still leanttoward's Raptor though, since the more high profile BOPs seen in DS9 seemed to be more Raptor sized than B'Rel sized, going by interiors and crew sizes.
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    @misterde3: That looks a heck of a lot like an in-game plasma torp. In fact, I remember reading fan speculation years and years ago that the original TSFS B'Rel's torps were actually plasma, based on their own unusual "fuzzy ball of lightning" appearance that was inconsistent with the standard movie-era torp effect (and also the abandoned "stolen Romulan ship" idea that informed the BOP's design).

    Thanks, I apreciate your response and have to say I thought about a lot of that myself over the past few years.
    And while I also think the ship in Star Trek 3 (and5) probably used a Plasma Torpedo, there are several key details to be taken into account.
    In both Star Trek 3 and 5, there was some kind of "lid" on the launcher that had to be opened before a torpedo was fired.

    http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/2834/vlcsnap2012122319h42m01.png

    Before the torpedo was actually fired, there was some kind of "glowy, sparkly" (sorry, couldn't find any other words to describe it) effect that seemed to indicate that the plasma was concentrated there before it was hurled into space.

    http://gndn.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/k6.jpg

    The torpedo itself also looks somewhat different:

    http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/9/9b/Klingon_Bird-of-Prey%2C_forward_torpedo.jpg

    Both the lid and the glowing stuff was absent from all Birds of Prey that fired Photon Torpedoes, in Star Trek 6 and 7 and most prominently DS9.

    So these are clear counterindicators that this particuler BoP used a Plasma Torpedo.
    Given the few instances we've seen the Klingons use these weapons, it seems they were probably abandoned a few years after they probably got them from the Romulans.
    I find it very unlikely they were still around in the TNG era.

    And while the Plasma Torps in this game might look a bit similar, the effect is actually not correct, at least not for the TNG era this type of weapons they are supposed to represent.

    They should actually look like this.
    http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080327222439/memoryalpha/en/images/d/d6/Cardassian_and_Romulan_fleet_open_fire.jpg

    There are interesting details to consider on this topic:
    The energy weapon the Romulans used in "Balance of Terror" was actually only called "Plasma Energy", never actually was the term torpedo attached to it.
    Yes this sounds very nitpicky but it is connected to its characteristics.
    It also seemed to be without any kind of solid component in TOS.

    In the DS9 Episode "Image in the Sand", Odo tells Kira that the Romulans are appearently stockpiling Plasma Torpedoes, which we know look like the image I linked to above.
    So they both look different and are being stockpiled even though we know the version from TOS was actually without any hard component and even degraded over time.
    Given this I have to say that the Plasma Torpedoes we have in this game are actually the wrong type both in terms of looks and in terms of functionality.
  • connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Was the "lid" actually present in ST III? I though that was added in IV or V.

    The Torp emitter in III is also physically different, being a flat plate with some kind of glowing panel or mesh pattern on it, whereas all later BOB's have a more traditional gun-like muzzle.

    Hadn't seen those eps of DS9, so I didn't know plasma torps were explicitly seen in the TNG era. Interesting to know.

    It is plausible though that there are later, more advanced versions of the STIII type plasma weapon, but for reasons of cost or situational utility they aren't standard fittings. That could be used to explain the odd torpedo you linked earlier, as well as maybe why the in game plasma torps are different: maybe something's changed in the decades between DS9 and STO that makes that class of plasma projectiles more economical or advantageous than they were before.

    Might also be possible those are advanced evolutions of the TOS Romulan plasma weapon, but I'll admit I feel that that might be stretching things a bit too much. If not just for for plausibilities sake, I do prefer a more high-profile sense of technological progression. Same reason why I don't like Aztec paneling on pre-movie era Fed ships, or transporters and photon torpedoes in the ENT era. Stuff shouldn't be so homogenous across that kind of time scale. Modern navy ships aren't made of wood planks and don't fire black powder muzzle-loaders, after all.
  • wunjeewunjee Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    As we're getting these ships to "celebrate" "Yesterday's Enterprise", the K'Vort needs to be a Battlecruiser, not a BoP, since in that episode, the K'Vort was referred to as a battlecruiser.

    Here's what I posted in the other thread.

    K'Vort should be a battlecruiser, not a BoP (Since it was called a Battlecruiser in that episode), and as such should have a BOFF layout similar to the "Free" Bortas. I think that'd work. No battlecloak, but it would have a cloak. Good turning--perhaps Fleet Tor'Kaht levels of base turning. Big crew--less then Fleet Tor'Kaht's 1500 for sure, tho. 1.0 or 1.05 shield modifier, 4/4 weapons, 4 engineering, 1 sci, 4 tac consoles, 3 device slots.
  • drkfrontiersdrkfrontiers Member Posts: 2,477 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The K'Vort needs to be a the first true escort class Bird of Prey in its class

    Hull: 29500
    Turn Rate: 18
    Impulse Modifier: 0.21
    Inertia rating: 70

    BOFFS:

    Universal CMDR,
    Universal LT CMDR,
    LT. Sci,
    Lt. ENG,
    Universal/ TAC Ensign

    Weapons: 4x fore 3x AFT

    ENG: 3
    SCI: 3
    TAC: 4

    or

    ENG: 2
    SCI: 3
    TAC: 5

    Special Ability: Battle Cloak
    Bonus Power:+15 weapons power

    It's time.
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Was the "lid" actually present in ST III? I though that was added in IV or V.

    Since dircetly linking to "Trekcore" is not possible, here's a link to an image galery for the recent HD version of Star Trek 3.
    In this case you can see the Bird of Prey during its landing on Vulcan.
    The lid is clearly visible.:)

    http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=409&page=2
    The Torp emitter in III is also physically different, being a flat plate with some kind of glowing panel or mesh pattern on it, whereas all later BOB's have a more traditional gun-like muzzle.

    Hadn't seen those eps of DS9, so I didn't know plasma torps were explicitly seen in the TNG era. Interesting to know.

    It is plausible though that there are later, more advanced versions of the STIII type plasma weapon, but for reasons of cost or situational utility they aren't standard fittings. That could be used to explain the odd torpedo you linked earlier, as well as maybe why the in game plasma torps are different: maybe something's changed in the decades between DS9 and STO that makes that class of plasma projectiles more economical or advantageous than they were before.

    The biggest problem to overcome would certainly be the degradation issue and the power demand.
    My guess is the method the Romulans during the TNG era used was to take the Photon Torpedo tech they probably got from the Klingons and replaced the matter-antimatter warhead with plasma.
    This could possibly be done out of battle.
    The results would probably be similar but without any of the problems of the old version.
    Assuming they actually solved that, or reduced degradation to such a degree it's no longer noticable...yeah I guess it would be possible they'd switch back.

    Of course the big question for me would be...I don't know...if the solution for this actually appeared at a time somewhere between the shows and STO, what would the Klingons do with this tech? With all its drawbacks?
    If they wanted firepower they would have had the giant Photon Torpedoes from the K't'inga (3 deck tall launcher)
    http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/a/a4/IKS_Amar_firing_forward_torpedo.jpg
    that would have fitted perfectly on an upscaled Bird of Prey.

    Might also be possible those are advanced evolutions of the TOS Romulan plasma weapon, but I'll admit I feel that that might be stretching things a bit too much. If not just for for plausibilities sake, I do prefer a more high-profile sense of technological progression. Same reason why I don't like Aztec paneling on pre-movie era Fed ships, or transporters and photon torpedoes in the ENT era. Stuff shouldn't be so homogenous across that kind of time scale. Modern navy ships aren't made of wood planks and don't fire black powder muzzle-loaders, after all.

    Enterprise...yeah. It's a touchy subject. Whe I saw them fire their Phase Cannons and Photonic Torpedoes I thought to myself "...right and Napolenon already had machine guns and cruise missiles...they looked and worked exactly like the ones we have today. They just had different names.
    They were called mach gun and cruisic missiles."*sigh*
  • kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited December 2012
    The K'Vort needs to be a the first true escort class Bird of Prey in its class

    Hull: 29500
    Turn Rate: 18
    Impulse Modifier: 0.21
    Inertia rating: 70

    BOFFS:

    Universal CMDR,
    Universal LT CMDR,
    LT. Sci,
    Lt. ENG,
    Universal/ TAC Ensign

    Weapons: 4x fore 3x AFT

    ENG: 3
    SCI: 3
    TAC: 4

    or

    ENG: 2
    SCI: 3
    TAC: 5

    Special Ability: Battle Cloak
    Bonus Power:+15 weapons power

    It's time.

    Changes:
    Turn - 15
    Inertia - 50

    Weapons - 5fore / 2aft or 4/4
    ENG - 3
    SCI - 2
    TAC - 4

    Or

    ENG - 3
    SCI - 2
    TAC - 5
    As it is a special anniversary ship and deserves 10 consoles. ;)

    Unknown special weapon/console or a single hanger
    Cloak vs Battlecloak
    Just my 2ecs worth but always pictured it in my mind as a nimble battlecruiser with a large bop style body and heavy forward weapon power. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • cers001cers001 Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    In my opinion it would be an enginering vessel cause in the ep it was described as "K'vort class battle cruiser" its spechal power should be an enhanced battle cloak that draws a ton of power or rapid fire heavy disruptor cannons
    CVN-65 U.S.S. Enterprise - A ship so badass it survived John McCain.
  • eldarion79eldarion79 Member Posts: 1,679 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    cers001 wrote: »
    In my opinion it would be an enginering vessel cause in the ep it was described as "K'vort class battle cruiser" its spechal power should be an enhanced battle cloak that draws a ton of power or rapid fire heavy disruptor cannons

    Also, it should be a tier below the Vor'cha, during the Klingon Civil War, it took of these vessels to take on the IKS Bortas, Gowron's flagship.
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    eldarion79 wrote: »
    Also, it should be a tier below the Vor'cha, during the Klingon Civil War, it took of these vessels to take on the IKS Bortas, Gowron's flagship.

    Well, given how STO's system works they could certainly add a Tier 3 version as a base model and then throw in a retrofit.
  • connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    misterde3 wrote: »
    Of course the big question for me would be...I don't know...if the solution for this actually appeared at a time somewhere between the shows and STO, what would the Klingons do with this tech? With all its drawbacks?
    If they wanted firepower they would have had the giant Photon Torpedoes from the K't'inga (3 deck tall launcher)

    Could easily be political or cost related rather than tech related. That is, firepower/advantage might more or less comparable, and regional hand-shake deals with a contractor are what got one standardized over the other. Or maybe one empire has more of a given material or labor or tech specialization resource than another, so the weapons they're able to mass manufacture differ respectively. Don't have to go far in the real world to see how it's not always battlefield effectiveness that makes (or even frames) these decisions.

    Even Klingons, as battle-focused as they are, are VERY political within their own empire. Easy to imagine a tech that's supported by the wrong house getting buried as a result unless it represented a truly massive advantage.
  • lietenantlietenant Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    misterde3 wrote: »
    In this case you can see the Bird of Prey during its landing on Vulcan.
    The lid is clearly visible.:)

    http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=409&page=2

    Hate to burst your bubble, but when the Bird of Prey landed on Vulcan the cover was absent. You can still see the distinct "L" shape in the plate (which normally spins during use) sitting about 60 degrees counter clockwise.

    If you go back to the Bird of Prey uncloaking and preparing to fire at the Enterprise you can see the spin at the front of the tube stops spinning, and goes dark went the BOP is hit by the the Enterprises Photon Torpedo.
  • drkfrontiersdrkfrontiers Member Posts: 2,477 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The KDF needs escorts.

    The KDF does not need another battle-cruiser.

    With the Fl. Negh'Var, the Fl. Vor'cha, and the Fl. Bortesqu that line-up is more than just covered.

    We need a 5-TAC console design with superior defense, that can complete with the heavy TAC emphasis the Feds have going on nearly 4-5 of their escort class vessels.

    DHC's on a slow turning "battlecruiser"-class design only works in PvE. It's successes in PvP are completely subjective and imho, 65% effective because of the nature of speed and flight in matches.

    Please don't waste the opportunity to ask for a ship design that is comparable to the myriad of Fl. Escorts the Feds have going that are effective across all classes.

    Take careful look at the current offerings the KDF has in terms of escorts and BOP's and then honestly ask yourself - do we really need another battlecruiser that has to give-up half its defensive capability just to improve its turn rate?
  • connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    lietenant wrote:
    Hate to burst your bubble, but when the Bird of Prey landed on Vulcan the cover was absent. You can still see the distinct "L" shape in the plate (which normally spins during use) sitting about 60 degrees counter clockwise.

    If you go back to the Bird of Prey uncloaking and preparing to fire at the Enterprise you can see the spin at the front of the tube stops spinning, and goes dark went the BOP is hit by the the Enterprises Photon Torpedo.

    I think you're right. I can't quite see the detail in the center well enough to tell if it's the plate or the lid, but there's a dashed rim on the plate which is covered by lid, and I can see that.
  • wunjeewunjee Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The KDF needs escorts.

    You're asking for an escort with a wingspan of nearly a kilometer...

    The 440 meter HEC is so big that it looks goofy as an escort..
  • lietenantlietenant Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I think you're right. I can't quite see the detail in the center well enough to tell if it's the plate or the lid, but there's a dashed rim on the plate which is covered by lid, and I can see that.

    I'm working on the design of this opening (or whatever they call it). I'll post the result when it's ready!

    It also looks to me that this is a two sided object which flips around to show one side or the other. I'n not quite sure about that yet.
  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I say a Battle Cruiser since it was referred by that on the show. Since the KDF does have a lot of them. And the Feds been getting cross overs. I say a Battle Cruiser/Escort hybrid. The fire power of a Battle Cruiser, faster speed and turning rate than the Battle cruiser.

    Since they killed the K'Tinga and Vor'cha idea for a C store for me to buy. By making them a Fleet ship. I wouldn't mind buying the K'Vort for my Eng. Capt. Until then I'm getting the Breen Ship to use.
    Enterprise%20C_zpsrdrf3v8d.jpg

    USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
    Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
  • edited December 2012
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  • connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    lietenant wrote: »
    I'm working on the design of this opening (or whatever they call it). I'll post the result when it's ready!

    Looking forward to it. Every model of the BOB I've ever sen, CG or physical, has used the later torpedo tube muzzle. I'd love to finally see one that uses the original Plasma emitter.

    lietenant wrote: »
    It also looks to me that this is a two sided object which flips around to show one side or the other. I'n not quite sure about that yet.

    Well, on the original studio model it's a solid cylinder that extends diagonally downward out of the hull (you can see this in the first big pic in patrickngo's first reply to my first post). However, I like the idea that on the "real" ship it's a reversible object. Something like a searchlight or signal light in structure, I imagine.
  • wunjeewunjee Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Further, going off of CANON statements from the television series, the Defiant is not an "Escort"

    Wut? They officially designate it an Escort in "The Search: 1".

    It's a warship, but since the Federation doesn't build dedicated, offensive warships, they officially designated Defiant an Escort.

    In the television series.

    Sisko: "Officially, she's classified as an escort vessel. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less."

    The Search: Part I

    So yes. Defiant is officially an Escort.

    As for the K'Vort's size, we have the "Yesterday's Enterprise" article on Ex Astris Scientia.
    When three Klingon cruisers attack the two Federation ships, one of them can be seen passing by above the Enterprise-D. The Klingon ship (in flight mode, wings horizontal) is almost 400m wide, giving us a length of more than 350m. It is obvious the VFX team intentionally scaled them up so as to pose a visually considerable threat to the Galaxy and Ambassador classes.

    Sorry, I don't think a ship 400 meters wide would look proper flying around like an escort. At all. The Mogai already looks ridiculous zipping around like an escort.. And we have it officially designated, in that timeline at least, as a battlecruiser. And it's that timeline we're "celebrating".

    Gonna' say the same thing I said in the Ambassador thread.

    Remember, these are free ships that EVERYONE is going to have access to after doing a 10 minute mission. They shouldn't be super-mega effective. They should look cool, be playable, but they shouldn't represent a new standard in any way, shape or form.
  • connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Kinda underscores my point about the absurdity of it. It was a placeholder for the Vor'Cha, and should be retconned as such, not taken seriously.
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  • wunjeewunjee Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    If they want to do that with the C-store version that's bound to be released at some point after the free one, so be it.

    But the free one that everyone can easily get shouldn't be a stepping stone, and shouldn't be particularly better at anything than anything else we've already got.

    Which is why I'd like to see it as a Battlecruiser that's about as capable as the tier 4 Vor'Cha, but more maneuverable, with a 4/4 arrangement, with the original Bortas' BOFF layout and the ability to cloak.

    I'd play it. Hell, the tier 4 Vor'Cha was the only ship I used until I got my Flor'Kaht
    fits into the evident and apparent design ethos of the KDF

    It's an alternate timeline ship..Nobody says it has to make sense..In the universe the 3rd anniversary event will be celebrating, IE, the universe of Yesterday's Enterprise, the K'Vort was a battlecruiser.

    They even say "K'Vort-class Battlecruiser" onscreen..
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  • wunjeewunjee Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Tor'Kaht's also a 4-module ship, which means for most people it'll cost $20.00, since Klingons don't get the benefit of a tier 5 ship they can buy to get the fleet discount.

    Tor'Kaht, in the setup I proposed, would have an infinitely better BOFF layout, better consoles, better shields, better hull..

    The K'Vort would be a free tier 5 ship that's only slightly better then the tier 4s, adding an aft weapon, and the Free Bortas' BOFF layout.

    It'd be a free ship that was relatively fun, but wouldn't be pathfinding and wouldn't obsolete anything..
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