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Torpedo Update Request
antoniosalieri
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Borticus I am sort of aiming this one at you... I know you likely have a ton of other stuff to work on. Just thought I would throw this out there anyway.
We had an interesting conversation in Opvp this evening about torps, and how they work or don't work...
First off let me say the torpedo changes you have made over the last 6 or so months (what ever its been) have all been great imo. I think there more usable then ever.
However having said that... I think the game is at a point where torps mostly don't work... so DPS escorts and cruiser really don't run them... they are mostly used by sci... in full on torp boat setups. Anyway there are lots of reasons for that... mostly it comes down to opportunity costs with torps. In order to make the weapons effective in general you must commit to them... in general 2+ torps and 2+ doffs dedicated to torps... in order to ensure a fire rate that will provided a payoff, in the face of high shield caps and regens.
Recently there has been 2 new torpedo techs that we have seen in the game... 1 is the shifting cool down system used on the Time Torpedo... and the other is the Ammo system used on the omega torpedo launcher.
I would just like you to think about the following.....
What if all torps had 1s cool downs... and all torps had Ammo systems.
This would greatly reduce the Opportunity cost of running torps... by front loading there dps instead of staggering it.
Here is my proposal, this is My ideal torpedo system
- All torps regen 1 ammo every 6s
- Torpedo doffs have a chance to regen ammo.... working either as
1) 5% - 10% -15% -20% per level to regen 1 ammo ; or
2) all levels 20% chance.. to regen 1 2 3 or 4 ammo (this may be OP option 1 might work better)
- Long duration torps would NOT have ammo... but work more like the lobi time torp
1) trics... 20s cool down... 60s when HY is applied
2) Breen cluster... 20s cool down (60% the payload it has now)... HY applied increases number of mines (HY 3 = 60% more then current ... HY 2 40%... HY 1 20%) HY applies 45s cool down... spread fire 1 2 or 3 60% yield clusters 45s cool down
- reduce base dmg on all torps to account for there new rapid fire ways (this would need to be tweeked)... this would reduce dmg on a full torp boat a bit... but it would free up a ton of weapon slots for energy / mines ect
- Photons... 8 Ammo charges max
- Quantums... 6 ammo charges max
- Plasma... 6 ammo charges max
- chroniton... 4 ammo charges max
- Transphasic... 2 ammo charges max (this is dontdrunkimshoot idea)... 2 charges but with much higher base dmg, making them the weapon of cannon, a high dmg slower firing weapon. (another option is to keep the base dmg lower as it is now... but give them a Phasic HY verison, perhaps similer to the omega torp, with defense or health and good shield pen.... so a HY 3 would hit base wise like a current quantum but have say 20 30 and 40% bonuses to shield pen per HY level)
- HY patterns would no longer fire more then one torp... but would increase the base dmg of the torps (remember we are reducing dmg to start, so this won't be one shot wonder time... but would need to be worth slotting, perhaps the proc effects of the torps could also be increased with hy patterns, or even added in the case of quantum and photon.)
- Spread patterns, a few options for these... multiple ammo use could be hard for people to manage... perhaps a simple multi target firing with 70-80% of the HY version dmg and any proc effects would work well.
Anyway just some thoughts on a torpedo overhaul. (again)
I think though that if torps where made to be more viable in more builds we would see t here use go up... and the proliferation of the all energy builds would reduced... and people woulds top wining about that 3rd ensign tac slot on the defaint. lol
We had an interesting conversation in Opvp this evening about torps, and how they work or don't work...
First off let me say the torpedo changes you have made over the last 6 or so months (what ever its been) have all been great imo. I think there more usable then ever.
However having said that... I think the game is at a point where torps mostly don't work... so DPS escorts and cruiser really don't run them... they are mostly used by sci... in full on torp boat setups. Anyway there are lots of reasons for that... mostly it comes down to opportunity costs with torps. In order to make the weapons effective in general you must commit to them... in general 2+ torps and 2+ doffs dedicated to torps... in order to ensure a fire rate that will provided a payoff, in the face of high shield caps and regens.
Recently there has been 2 new torpedo techs that we have seen in the game... 1 is the shifting cool down system used on the Time Torpedo... and the other is the Ammo system used on the omega torpedo launcher.
I would just like you to think about the following.....
What if all torps had 1s cool downs... and all torps had Ammo systems.
This would greatly reduce the Opportunity cost of running torps... by front loading there dps instead of staggering it.
Here is my proposal, this is My ideal torpedo system
- All torps regen 1 ammo every 6s
- Torpedo doffs have a chance to regen ammo.... working either as
1) 5% - 10% -15% -20% per level to regen 1 ammo ; or
2) all levels 20% chance.. to regen 1 2 3 or 4 ammo (this may be OP option 1 might work better)
- Long duration torps would NOT have ammo... but work more like the lobi time torp
1) trics... 20s cool down... 60s when HY is applied
2) Breen cluster... 20s cool down (60% the payload it has now)... HY applied increases number of mines (HY 3 = 60% more then current ... HY 2 40%... HY 1 20%) HY applies 45s cool down... spread fire 1 2 or 3 60% yield clusters 45s cool down
- reduce base dmg on all torps to account for there new rapid fire ways (this would need to be tweeked)... this would reduce dmg on a full torp boat a bit... but it would free up a ton of weapon slots for energy / mines ect
- Photons... 8 Ammo charges max
- Quantums... 6 ammo charges max
- Plasma... 6 ammo charges max
- chroniton... 4 ammo charges max
- Transphasic... 2 ammo charges max (this is dontdrunkimshoot idea)... 2 charges but with much higher base dmg, making them the weapon of cannon, a high dmg slower firing weapon. (another option is to keep the base dmg lower as it is now... but give them a Phasic HY verison, perhaps similer to the omega torp, with defense or health and good shield pen.... so a HY 3 would hit base wise like a current quantum but have say 20 30 and 40% bonuses to shield pen per HY level)
- HY patterns would no longer fire more then one torp... but would increase the base dmg of the torps (remember we are reducing dmg to start, so this won't be one shot wonder time... but would need to be worth slotting, perhaps the proc effects of the torps could also be increased with hy patterns, or even added in the case of quantum and photon.)
- Spread patterns, a few options for these... multiple ammo use could be hard for people to manage... perhaps a simple multi target firing with 70-80% of the HY version dmg and any proc effects would work well.
Anyway just some thoughts on a torpedo overhaul. (again)
I think though that if torps where made to be more viable in more builds we would see t here use go up... and the proliferation of the all energy builds would reduced... and people woulds top wining about that 3rd ensign tac slot on the defaint. lol
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Post edited by antoniosalieri on
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@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Hes one of the few I bet reads things like forums on vacation.
The tier 4 omega rep torpedo has ammo.
The Omega Torp is horrible for a torpboat unless aft mounted.
Folks aren't going to give up a Tac console for a torp on a gunboat, so if you look at increasing the overall damage of the torp without the console - those that do use them, will be doing even that much more damage.
Much like using a torp is situational, the various torps themselves are situational.
With the possibility of getting the AKHG set, you may see more Feds using torps rather than just KDF guys flying their Feds.
Don't forget the change to Nadeon working with torps other than just Photon.
BO the shields down, CRF the -DR, and that THY hits naked-debuffed hull.
Cause them to burn a buff/cleanse out of order because they got hit by one of your special love bullets.
The loss of DPS one may find from putting a torp on a gunboat is along the lines of the the loss you'd get putting a DHC on a torpboat... tac consoles? skill points? Unless you build for both, either's going to not feel quite right.
Running torps and guns...is basically a form of rainbow.
It goes on and on and on... and I should confess, should have confessed at the start - that I'm highly biased, lol. I love torps(and mines) - I suck rotten eggs when it comes to DHCs. I'm trying it again, trying to get better with them on one of my toons, but man oh man - I just hate them. I have much more fun on my torp Vor'cha than I do on my gun Qin.
quantums have some use for escort and raider alpha strikes, but have an abysmal success rate. seeing as photons only fire more often but do less damage per hit, they are worthless in comparison. transphasics for tranny boats specialize at chiping away hull faster then a target can heal, and plasma boats sort of do the same thing, only their damage is easier to mitigate, but burning an HE early can be a nice effect from them. chronos are used for thier slow proc, thier damage is irelivent and thier fireing rate is slow. these also arent anything like they are in canon, annoyingly. tric torps are harmless and swat able.
well thats a sorry state of things isnt it. a FULL overhawl is in order, and has been for more then 2 years. what were torpedoes like in canon?
self guided weapons- they technically should not have firing arcs, but i understand the need for them for balance reasons though. higher base fire arc would be appropriate
bursting launchers- basically all torp launchers in the mid to late 24th century had some bursting capability, weather they could load up 10 or more at a time, or just 3 or 4. the charges the omega torp have are a perfect way to represent this in game.
damage to shields- they are fired at shielded targets all the time, for them to only do 1/4 damage to shields, before the massive amount of shield resistance takes even more, is absurd, and the opposite of canon.
the omega torp is seriously the closest thing to ok, or pretty good a torp has been like ever in game. partly because its works closer to cannon, but also because its an effective weapon. it should be a model for a torpedo overhawl, with some additional changes. at the very least we know this core tech exists to do this now, nothing from scrach should need to me made
1 all torps in game should have a certain number of charges and reload speed based on what type of torp they are
2 all torp damage should be cut in half across the board
3 torps should deal 75% damage to shileds, not 25%
4 torps should have a 135 base fireing arc
5 the rate of fire between charges should very between types of torps from .1 to 1 second
6 HY and TS would have to be overhauled to do something different in light of the change to torps
photons-
~1000 damage
8 charges
6 second reload
.1 sec fireing rate
quantums-
~1300 damage
5 charges
8 second reload
20% higher flight speed
.5 sec fireing rate
plasma-
~900 damage
6 charges
33% chance of ~700 dot over 10 seconds
8 second reload
.5 sec fireing rate
chronoton-
850 damage
4 charges
10% chance to completely bypass shields
33% chance to slow
10 second reload
1 sec fireing rate
transphasic-
~2000 damage
3 charges
40% shield bleed
10 second reload
1 sec fireing rate
Thermionic-
800 damage
5 charges
15% chance to drain 12 weapons and engine damage per hit for 12 seconds
10 second reload
1 sec fire rate
harpang-
~1500 damage
2 charges
66% chance of 500 radiation dot over 10 seconds followed by a 1000 damage secondary detonation
15 second reload
1 sec fireing rate
Breen Transphasic Cluster
~damage dealt by mines
1 charge
targetable
20 second reload
Temporal Disruption Device
~3000 damage
1 charge
targetable
100% chance to reduce Flight Speed and Turn Speed by 33%
20 second reload
tricobalt-
~4000 damage
1 charge
targetable
minimum 2 second stun on hit
30 second reload
THY1/2/3- 15 second duration, 30 second cooldown, 15 second system
all launched torpedoes will deal 10/15/20% more damage. or will create heavy plasma, heavy Thermionic, heavy Temporal Disruption, or heavy tricobalt.
TS 1/2/3-15 second duration, 30 second cooldown, 15 second system
each torpedo launch will launch a second/third/forth torpedo at a random target(s) and explode in proximity dealing 80% damage. proximity explosions deal 20% additional bleed damage
Hrmm, perhaps if they were to offer both - redo the Rapid and add Rapids that function as suggested, while avoiding the charge aspect/etc on regular ol' torps?
Actually, in a lot of ways this would greatly improve the effectiveness of Torpedo Boats, as well as expanding their options RE: DOffs. Since the fire-rate of torpedoes increases, having multiple launchers becomes an asset as you'd be able to sustain a potentially tremendous amount of pressure. Even one launcher would actually be potentially threatening even without a power.
If you aren't being succesful landing torpedoes on hull, probably better to question why that is so then to just say. "well it is so, therefore my torpedoes suck"
And really? Opportunity cost? What do you think that means? Actually I won't even check back so don't bother. The cost to run a torpedo is nominal. If the energy weapons and abilites are being applied correctly. If not well I guess it WOULD seem excessive.
Watching Tacs play attrition online just attempting to slowly grind down shields or cause enough bleed damage to hulls to win a match may be the first hint that the issue isn't with torpedoes.
With 3 PWO-Torp DOFFs you can already fire at the same rate as the Omega...without the cooldown.
If you had 4 Omegas - you'd have to turn off autofire and keybind each of them separately - otherwise you'd only be firing the first one until it went on CD - then you'd fire the second, etc, etc, etc.
You'd never likely run more than two torps - you'd have two keybinds, Torp #1 and Torp #2 - running one when the other is on CD. At which point you're looking at dropping in two DHC.
So basically it's a case of being able to do away with PWO DOFFs while running a pair of DHCs - or - going three DHCs, using PWO's to reduce the recharge.
So where exactly is the torpboat? You're basically just running your standard rig with better torps. That whole cake and eating it thing. It's a case of wanting to avoid the plasma resist of the STF shields, by not using the Omega but using another form of torp that does not suffer that "penalty"...
Torps have their place. It's no different than avoiding DHCs on a boat with slow turn or running DHCs on the escort instead of arrays.
If you're putting a torp on your boat, you're putting it there for a reason - whether it's for one of the effects, for hitting that naked hull, popping a target with full shields, etc, etc, etc.
It's no different than any other weapon - they're not all the same - they're not all as effective in every situation...
What about the Ferengi Missile? I know it isn't very good.
There's a recent thread about that in one of the fleetyards, no? Somebody asking if the torp abilities apply to it... left me wondering about how it plays with the KineticProc.
The 4x DHC popularity is simple due to the much lower opportunity cost of using 4 DHCs with turrets when compared to using 7x beams, or any other weapon really. Because the first DHC will fire every shot at full power, while the other weapon types aren't quite that lucky.
Sci torp boats are a necessity of needing maxed AUX to have useful Sci abilities (for the most part) combined with the extreme importance of having a high shield power. Something has to give and for most the opportunity cost is just packing torps and hoping for the best.
But in the end I think torpedoes are fine how they are. Really it is the other parts of the game and how they function that makes them under desired more than how they themselves work.
Well I was more curious about how the Ferengi Missile would be translated into the system DDIS and the OP was proposing.
Oh, no - wasn't suggesting to look there or anything - it's just they're so rarely mentioned - thought it interesting they came up again.
Course, give me some autocannons - artillery - and the Ferengi rockets might work on the new Minmatar ship...
Ah ok. I own the little buggers, they aren't exactly the most effective against anything, but I DO like your thought there, I'd love to know that too.
Increase the energy dmg resistance rating of armor consoles so energy weapons become less effective against hulls (4 neutronium consoles stacked should give 80% energy resistance. point.). At the same time, keep the kinetic dmg resistance at a low level.
Problem sovled.
+1
........10char
Right now my standard sci torp boat will put 3 of same type torps in front... a few mines and a beam in back... frankly its sort of boring. Its fire and forget, its as easy a setup for sci as 4 dhc is for an escort... and its about as creative. (now that its a well known setup)
Once my sci gets high enough rep I will put an omega on it... and that will free up 2 forward weapons slots for me... at that point I have lots of other options.
Doffs are the only thing that make a Torp boat work even with 3 forward torps, with out doffs its a super low dps build. I would like to see a system where doffs are a nice bonus and not needed to make the core mechanic work.
By running torps/mines - you 25 Weapon Power, and are generally only left with two transitions you make Shield/Aux and Aux/Shield that you primarily worry about. Even there, you might find that you're just running your Aux/Shield and doing fine.
As soon as you start adding energy weapons into it - then you're looking at juggling the power - you're losing efficiency as you juggle the three. There's times that you won't have the Wep Juice you need - won't have the Aux Juice you need - won't have the Shield Juice you need.
Again, it's getting pretty rainbow in there. Not only are you splitting energy and kinetic, but you've got the Bill Nye stuff as well.
The torp/mine damage is going to be constant - the energy damage is going to be low to lower. If you're focused on your Bill Nye, you may even consider dropping any Universals you have in your Tac console slots so you can focus more on your Bill Nye while also making sure you've got your armor.
With the Omega firing as it does, you wouldn't be using any other torps unless you were using a special for them or were using them when the Omega was on CD. If it's a case that it's for a special, well - that gets into wasting a BOFF slot, no? If it's a case of waiting until the Omega's on CD... that's wasting a weapon slot, no? It's just not efficient.
Even on an Escort, when you 25 the weapon power to put more into shields - that extra resistance and regen you get from high shield power's going to help with some of that lacking Eng/Sci. Maybe you even split it Shield/Aux - so the heals you do have work better.
As for the DOFFs, even if you're sitting there waiting on an 8s CD...
1 Torp #1
2 Torp #2
3 Torp #3
4 Torp #4
Here many folks are thinking they're waiting until 9 to fire that first torp again. Are they really just sitting there looking at their target? What's that? There's 3-4 weapons aft?
Yeah, you show them your rear. Torp #5. Torp #6. DPB those mines! When you face them again, guess what? You're front torps are ready to fire again.
What the PWOs allow you to do is cut it down from 4 to 3 or even 2 while adding in things like Tric Torps and Breen Clusters. They let you fire that torp every sec continuously - meaning you can spend more time looking at the target instead of working in showing them your rear.
Say you've got Rapid Trans, Rapid Trans, Breen Cluster, Tric Torp mounted fore - cause you like dropping the chained THY Rapids, firing the Cluster and Tric, while flying past your Tric to DPB your Trans Mine, fire off another THY Rapid, and a Hargh on them - then turn to have your Rapids fire...pew, pew, pew, pew... don't forget the 5% KineticProc on all those torps and mines.
That's just so freaking fun to do...
...and you couldn't do it with the proposed changes without a convoluted keybind setup or sitting there clicking.
Hell, it's also fun to replace those Rapids with Plasmas. Launching four targetables at a person that's not paying attention. For clickety fun, replace the Plasmas with a Hyper-Plasma and an Omega. You'll send six targetables at the target - THY Hyper-Plasma (3 Heavy Plasma), THY Omega (the mini bolt), Cluster, and Tric. You get somebody off to the side, get a teamie to have them burn their CSV and hold, then drop Armageddon on them...
As for the Sci guy, I see a difference between building the Sci guy that's going to use torps and the torp guy that's going Sci. The first guy might be doing any of the regular stuff, the torp guy going Sci is going trans (2x Rapid, Cluster - Rapid, Mine, Cluster) and picking hullbusting Sci abilities.
When I make a torp guy, it even shows in the skill build. 9 Weapon, 0 Energy, 9 Projectile, 0 Energy Spec, 9 Projectile Spec. The ship, all the gear, DOFFs, everything is built around maximizing the torp damage...
...and I really don't see how it's that much different than somebody doing the energy guy. You don't expect DHCs to be awesomesauce without building for it (course, folks are very unlikely to touch the Specialization). Why should it be any different for torps?
I know I'm about the flakiest person talking builds on here... but oddly enough I get by flying my cooky instead of cookie builds...
...I still say that a great compromise would be both.
Just like there's the Omega, but still the Hyper-Plasma, and regular Plasma... they could do "Rapid/Charge" versions of the other torps.
A "Rapid/Charge" would be better than a single torp - but it wouldn't be better than somebody that's built for torps.
It would be like deciding between DHCs and Arrays... what are you flying? This is what you use...
Yes min maxing power levels ect ect...
Think of the options you would have if you didn't HAVE to have 3 torps + doffs to enable any kinda of dps.
Chron DBB / Time Torp / Chron torp (with ammo) ---- Something usable right.
Harpeng / Time Torp-tric-breen cluster / Omega Torp ---- Usable all torp option that doesn't rely on firing away on torps to proc doffs.
Or yes something more like so --- No you can't always run full aux... but frankly thats sort of boring sometimes... I miss my viable energy build recon... would be nice to see those options again.
DBB / DBB / Torp with ammo
Turret Turret Turret
Look I love torps anyone that knows me, knows that.... the current torp system is much better then it was 2 years ago... however there could be a better system. The fact that Cryptic has already implemented the tech to make it happen. yes I am excited about it a full on ammo system would be a great step forward imo.
I want to see torps on cruisers that aren't a joke....
I want to see sci ships firing more then one type of torp...
I want to see escorts adding Torps as a RELIABLE option to provide Dps...
Right now your right mixing is mostly a bad idea... it is not just a form of rainbow its the worst kind... spread out skill points... can't boost both with tac units... having to dedicate more then half your doff slots... not to mention boff skill slots.
The omega torp tech I think is a great starting point to make all that happen. I think the way we have been forced to min max between energy and kinetic has always been bad design. On Cryptics part.
I know this one won't be popular but this is what I would do if I was the game desginer;
1) There wouldn't be Energy and Kinetic on the skill tree there would be one option for Weapon dmg.
2) I would split every single ships tac consoles, into 2 categories, Tac Consoles Energy / Tac Consoles kinetic... This would not only encourage the use of kinetic weaponry... it would almost make it a no brainer.
A Ship like the bug would have 4 Energy console slots... and 2 kinetic slots.
A ship like the Assault cruiser would have 2 Energy Console slots... and 2 kinetic slots.
A system setup more like that would allow Cryptic to sell (now people really hate me)... ship variants based on that mix... they could flog the Mine Laying X Race Sci Ship... that would only have 1 energy weapon slot... but 4 Kinetic.... Ect Ect.
Honestly the fact that we either have ships with nothing but cannons or beams... and ships with nothing torps flying... is not only super un canon, its also terrible game design imo.
It's easy to see where they could Rep it up, lol.
Deferi Rep - redo the Rapid Trans and look at how a Hyper-Cluster would work.
Bajoran Rep - redo the Chroniton Flux and look at the Hyper-Quantum.
PvP Rep - Rapid Photons/Hyper-Photons...the DHC of torps, eh?
Temporal Rep - Tric and Therm dancing...?
(And you thought people would hate you for suggesting Z-boats that can make better use of different torps - how about the hate I'll get for suggesting all the Mark grinding.)
A complete overhaul would likely TRIBBLE off more people then it would please.
The more I think about it though...
I think a system where they do just that and add Ammo based interesting torps, to both Zen Store ships (as there unique item), and mabey even as lockbox items and into the rep grind. Could lead to some interesting hybrid torp energy builds that I would be hoping for....
The skill tree could use some work anyway... would it not be great if weapons only needed to be speced into in general... no more energy or kinetic.... and then they could give every ship a once over and split the tac consoles into 2 categories... some ships would end up being much more in line with cannon... think of the steam runner style fed torp boats in cannon, with 2 energy tac consoles but 4 dedicated to torps. It would be a much different system... but it would be one in which slotting one torp would always make sense.
The effectiveness of energy weapons against hull either needs toning down, or you could compensate like others have said by reducing the crazy innate kinetic resist of shields so that you're not flying around waiting five minutes to use one of your weapons while it sits there idle.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
-mind blown-
Do you even Science Bro?
I miss low-level PvP
"Whoa... I'm in, like, the Wrath of Khan" -Neo, Star Trek Online, 2012
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Ohhh, warptorps?
Transporter torps?
Boarding Parties that rig bombs...
Did I ask for the Concentrated Tachyon Torps already? I think I did.
And here I'm going to head out to the parking lot behind left field..
Much like Sci Vessels can target subsystems with beams, how about Cruisers being able to modify torps to target subsystems?
Actually, right now the current Torp system is worse. Not long ago, a Mark 12 VR Warhead Yield Chamber was buffing all kinetic damage by 20% which actually made it sort of beneficial to run "Rainbow" Torp builds on certain Sci builds that were built around doing kinetic damage. That means GW, TBR, EWP, HGB and many others Powers were also getting damage buffs from those Tactical consoles as well as one's Torps. I honestly wish they would revert those consoles back to this way. What one might lose in DPS to an actual Torpedo was made up in Kinetic damage from other things like your TBR or EWP or HGB. It wasn't OP. Some numskulls who didn't know what they were talking about just complained too much that you could buff Science abilities in the Tactical console slot. Nevermind that a Tac can buff the damage that Science powers due through their own Tactical buffs more than a Science Officer could which negated some (not all) of their usefulness. That's one of the reasons why we were seeing more Tactical officer's flying Science ships than Science Officers back in the early days of S5. Back then, other than the subnuke and Science fleet and a nerfed Sensor Scan a Sci had very little going for it. Sort of ironic that is....