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Space Combat NEEDS a more Star Trek feel...

timjerromtimjerrom Member Posts: 11 Arc User
edited April 2014 in Federation Discussion
Please don't all hate me internet Trolls, but the space combat in this game could do with a littl more having a Star Trek feel to it. Having less ships but harder to destroy, mostly 1 on 1 + with a litl more ship coms to it? Also crazy idea have no idea how you could do this but wouldnt it be cool if you could zoom right into inside your bridge! Star Trek Academy had this and would make a great update don't you think fellow players....


TimJ.
Post edited by timjerrom on
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  • innuwarriorinnuwarrior Member Posts: 305 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    The only problem I have with space combat is thats its not full 360 degree motion.
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  • ehgatoehgato Member Posts: 137 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    1st sry for mi englsh.

    Command the ship from inside of the bridge will be great :D but dont think it happens...

    i love to see in game some thing like the suricatas revamp idea that will be realy great and extend the game fronteirs and the fun factor will have no limits .... maybe some day a member of dev team give it a chance .... honestly dont see why not already done this, this revamp idea will made the player happy and made sales for (C) (PWE)
  • elandarkskyelandarksky Member Posts: 1,013 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Personally i think to make the space combat feel TREK, you would have to remove some of the smaller ships (escorts) and remove their cannons, something about cannons feels wrong for the federation....
    Also carriers, the federation sending tidgey little ships into war.. cannon fodder (hehe.. pun)
    doesnt sit right


    Yes DS9's defiant broke the mould.. AND it used plenty of fighters in some of the bigger fights, but 'blek' is my response :o

    DS9 was the least trek-y feeling series in my opinion too oddly enough :p, too soap opera-y rather than episodic, if you get me?

    And dear god, from what i have seen i do not care about the bajorans and their DEUS EX MACHINA gods >.<

    *shudder*
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  • maxvitormaxvitor Member Posts: 2,213 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    I kind of agree, space battles just don't feel massive enough, the ships we are flying are huge with firepower that could lay waste to a planet. Sound effects are a big part of the problem, weapons fire and explosions should have a deep rumble, more kaboom and less pew pew if you understand what I mean.
    As for zooming to the bridge this has been discussed ad-nauseum and for the most part seems outside of the game engines abilities. It's never a good idea to compare this game with a different Star Trek product and think that features of one could work with another.
    As for 360 degree motion, while I agree, it's space, so there is no limitation on degrees of freedom, but it should be remembered that you rarely see in the movies or tv series scenes where a ship is flying inverted or at right angles. All of the motion scenes always give a sense of up and down, banking instead of rolling, ascending instead of flying straight up, more like the limited maneuverability of large aircraft or submersibles as opposed to the aerobatics of a fighter jet, rolling into a dive on a target is something you normally don't see the big ships doing.
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  • twg042370twg042370 Member Posts: 2,312 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Star Trek feel?

    A four second exchange of phasers and then cutting to our BOFFs bouncing around the bridge followed by ten minutes of speechifying?

    That'd be a thrilling game.
    <3
  • stofskstofsk Member Posts: 1,744 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Space combat already has a trek feel to it. Hell I'd say the space combat is the number 1 best part of this game and most trek-like aspect of it. The diplomacy, exploration stuff is sadly lacking in comparison.

    About the only thing I'd suggest to improve it more is to buff engineering and science powers. Tactical and DPS is a little too emphasised. To give it more of the Star Trek flavour you need to be able to do engineering miracles or do some science magic through the main deflector. We already kinda can do that, but I just think the impact could be tweaked a bit more.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    The pacing is off. Other than that it is good but the pacing is too fast comparatively IMHO.
  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited November 2012
    Imagine

    You click on join elite STF
    A admiral calls you on the comm

    Caption your ordered to the Klingon border
    Cordinates 341 mark 12 proceed with all haste.

    The Borg are here, the fleet is sending all available
    Ships . Meet up with the fleet at the tykon nebula
    Make Starfleet proud

    Hanson out

    Now along the way several missions can happen
    Rescues, SOS calls, morality missions ect

    When you arrive 4 other players arrive too and you 5
    Proceed into the STF

    Boarding actions by the Borg anyone :) your being boarded
    By Borg and are taken from space battle to fight them.
    Until resolved the Borg do not fire on your ship

    Instead of blowing up maybe your ship is disabled requiring
    A engineer cruiser to get you back going , any ship could do it they would
    Be better.

    Remove one shot kills
    Double hulls
    Reduce all repair abilities by 90%

    Just a thought. :)
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  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,693 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    lets see.. to get the "real" star Trek Feel you would have to warp into combat, take an ungodly amount of damage, and cripple the other guy with a single torpedo spread. of course that's only hald the time. the other half of the time YOU are the one crippled by a single torpedo thread, and your best shot only scratches the other guys shields...
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  • jumpingjsjumpingjs Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    The only problem I have with space combat is thats its not full 360 degree motion.

    I already did a post on this and someone said , be in defaint and you have you will throw up. So why cant we have a "B" mode for space?

    And reagrding you say space needs more trek feel I AGREE





    sorry
    Hopefully I'll come back from my break; this break is fun; I play intellectual games.

    I hope STO get's better ...
  • plox21plox21 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    timjerrom wrote: »
    Please don't all hate me internet Trolls, but the space combat in this game could do with a littl more having a Star Trek feel to it. Having less ships but harder to destroy, mostly 1 on 1 + with a litl more ship coms to it? Also crazy idea have no idea how you could do this but wouldnt it be cool if you could zoom right into inside your bridge! Star Trek Academy had this and would make a great update don't you think fellow players....


    TimJ.

    PWE you read it now do it.... set explosive consoles that will kill our boffs in first minutes of combat , crapy shields that cant stand long battles , put settings of borg NPC to impossible or very very very hard so they can be only destroyed from fleet of 50 ships or more , set the rules of federation on 100% so we cant engage somebody without diplomacy/self defense and give us warp breach few times in combat.

    Im evil and i love it :).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mikey5timemikey5time Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Ah yes, how about that TNG feel?

    96% of fights end with the baddie backing down. Why?

    No budget for special effects.
  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    If it was really trek all those galaxy cruisers would explode in the first minute from containment failures before their shields got to 80%.


    But really, the game's space and ground combat is just too fast. Ground combat was very cover and accuracy based in series, they never mowed through dozens and dozens of enemies. Space combat was slow, many scenes were abbreviated for special effects reasons, but even the defiant lasted 2 minutes with their shields down against 2 klingon ships. Of course Voyager's shields seemed to last 2 hits half the time too.. so its hard to tell.
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  • oridjerraaoridjerraa Member Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Some more flavor options like being able to hide shield rings for example.

    My Christmas wish; to be able to retain the battle damage skin(just the appearance)when I am in the Wrath of Khan mood.

    From a purely combat mechanic standpoint, I would like to see more random warp-in encounters. Knowing I have to kill 6 groups in Deferi Outpost 3 takes all the surprise away. Not knowing if help will be summoned would be nice.
  • travelingmastertravelingmaster Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    maxvitor wrote: »
    I kind of agree, space battles just don't feel massive enough, the ships we are flying are huge with firepower that could lay waste to a planet. Sound effects are a big part of the problem, weapons fire and explosions should have a deep rumble, more kaboom and less pew pew if you understand what I mean.
    As for zooming to the bridge this has been discussed ad-nauseum and for the most part seems outside of the game engines abilities. It's never a good idea to compare this game with a different Star Trek product and think that features of one could work with another.
    As for 360 degree motion, while I agree, it's space, so there is no limitation on degrees of freedom, but it should be remembered that you rarely see in the movies or tv series scenes where a ship is flying inverted or at right angles. All of the motion scenes always give a sense of up and down, banking instead of rolling, ascending instead of flying straight up, more like the limited maneuverability of large aircraft or submersibles as opposed to the aerobatics of a fighter jet, rolling into a dive on a target is something you normally don't see the big ships doing.

    Don't feel massive enough? Do a 10v10 PvP and see the problem with that.

    If it's enemies you want, do the No-win scenario or a Foundry mission with lots of NPC enemies to shoot at.

    Also, on the 360 degree maneuverability: Even if the starships in Star Trek didn't appear to obey some principle of gravity, we still wouldn't have that sort of maneuvering in this game. . .and for two good reasons. One, the game engine isn't designed for that. Two, human beings aren't designed for that. Do people have any idea how disorienting 360 degree combat mechanics would be through a 2D screen of limited capabilities? :P
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  • andoriansrusandoriansrus Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    you know what I want ? to give space combat a more trek feel ? let me fight space battles from my captains chair on my bridge....
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  • th3xr34p3rth3xr34p3r Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    oridjerraa wrote: »
    Some more flavor options like being able to hide shield rings for example.

    My Christmas wish; to be able to retain the battle damage skin(just the appearance)when I am in the Wrath of Khan mood.

    From a purely combat mechanic standpoint, I would like to see more random warp-in encounters. Knowing I have to kill 6 groups in Deferi Outpost 3 takes all the surprise away. Not knowing if help will be summoned would be nice.

    hit esc > basic > sheild fx to off
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  • timjerromtimjerrom Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    you know what I want ? to give space combat a more trek feel ? let me fight space battles from my captains chair on my bridge....

    is exactly what im on about, to be able to fully zoom into your bridge and control space battles from there, Star Trek Bridge Commander did it fine why can't Star Trek Online?


    TimJ.
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    My 2 ECs. Give us FULL 3D combat. Not just semi 3D, but FULL. I want to be able to go full vertical, do barrel rolls, etc. That would be fun XD. Albeit not really trek, but fun nonetheless.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • greyrydergreyryder Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Also, on the 360 degree maneuverability: Even if the starships in Star Trek didn't appear to obey some principle of gravity, we still wouldn't have that sort of maneuvering in this game. . .and for two good reasons. One, the game engine isn't designed for that. Two, human beings aren't designed for that. Do people have any idea how disorienting 360 degree combat mechanics would be through a 2D screen of limited capabilities? :P

    Not that bad, actually. Ever played Decent? I would love six degrees of freedom space combat, in this game.
  • nalbertanalberta Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I've read the above posts but I am not in total agreement. And isn't that what Star Trek really was getting at?

    I always get the impression there are many stories in the ST Universe (role playing in the game allows for this). TOS was one story about one Exploration Ship on a five year mission. But that doesn't mean it had to be a rigid template for the story of every ship and crew in every sector of space. TOS was flavored with conflict with Roms and Klingons and awkward first contacts.

    Star Trek's story was never about machines, hardware etc like the clueless Studio Corporate Execs thought it should have been. It was character driven, tackling issues that normally would not get aired on TV, but Sci Fiction allowed social commentary to be explored, to question our prejudices, our hates. To debate where is the balance of individualism vs collectivism. "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations"

    The crew showed us the Stodgy rules of Star Fleet could be bent as we considered the context of every new encounter in a grand, diverse universe. As the crew grew and developed, we did likewise as our perspectives broadened.

    The options in the game for role playing are still developing, as they do for any game. The best thing people can do is express what story they want to explore with their toons and Bridge Crew and communicate that to the developers. Some times a development will be a hit like TOS or ST:TWoK, or it could be a dud like ST V:The Final Frontier.

    Exuberant joy and incredible disappointment both have been a part of ST over 6 decades, but one thing remains constant: Hope that things will get better.
  • timelord79timelord79 Member Posts: 1,852 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I've been thinking about this and kinda agree.

    Even cannon based ships never seemed to spam cannon fire like most people do, in their little zippy escorts.

    Too late to revamp it so completely, but i wouldn't have tied the damage numbers to a gazillion weapon ports on any given ship and give the most untreklike weapon (DHC) the biggest punch.
    Spike damage should be in Torpedos and energy weapons type should be purely visual with stats defined by weapon components.
    11750640_1051211588222593_450219911807924697_n.jpg
  • zeratkzeratk Member Posts: 409
    edited December 2012
    The only problem I have with space combat is thats its not full 360 degree motion.

    Exactly. With all motion bound to the horizontal axis, this is more like air combat! :mad: Take Escorts for example. They should be able to roll over their own axis as they fly forward. The Defiant was able to do that?!?! ;)

    Another problem is the angle. A lot of PvP Space Battles are located in some higher regions on the map. Why should it be necessary for a Spaceship to fly up in circles like in a parking deck, to get up there.
    This is Crypticverse... :mad:
  • bortjinxbortjinx Member Posts: 397
    edited December 2012
    Also, on the 360 degree maneuverability: Even if the starships in Star Trek didn't appear to obey some principle of gravity, we still wouldn't have that sort of maneuvering in this game. . .and for two good reasons. One, the game engine isn't designed for that. Two, human beings aren't designed for that. Do people have any idea how disorienting 360 degree combat mechanics would be through a 2D screen of limited capabilities? :P

    Umm, with a bit of practise, it's not difficult at all?

    How many space combat games are there out there that do allow free 360 degree movement? How many of those space combat games keep being mentioned among gamer's top lists of games? Hell, TIE Fighter is still considered by IGN and other places to be one of the world's greatest games, and that is almost 20 years old.

    Also, as far as the principles of gravity go on Star Trek... What principles of gravity? All of their ships have inertial dampeners and artificial gravity, so maneuvering really shouldn't be a problem, no matter what axis its on.
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  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Also, on the 360 degree maneuverability: Even if the starships in Star Trek didn't appear to obey some principle of gravity, we still wouldn't have that sort of maneuvering in this game. . .and for two good reasons. One, the game engine isn't designed for that. Two, human beings aren't designed for that. Do people have any idea how disorienting 360 degree combat mechanics would be through a 2D screen of limited capabilities? :P

    The engine is not designed for that.
    For some reason this horrendous nonsense keeps being brought up time and again.
    It is not possible to design a 3-d engine the does not allow 3-d movement.
    Besides this is the same engine as in Champions online.
    Champions online HAS complete 3-d movement so claiming the engine does not allow it make no sense at all.

    *EDIT
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBEvD5c2tU4

    you can fly and do backflips (look at 5mins in).*
  • squidheadjaxsquidheadjax Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I was barking up the "fewer NPCs with player parity instead of repetitive sequences of cannon fodder" tree for 2.5 years (starting about middle of CB). It's a lost cause.
    SQUIRREL!
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    360 Space: Honestly to me trek didn't really seem to emphasis the 3d nature of space all that much. Even in the big dominion war battles all the ships just formed into 'lines' and shoot one another, even the weapon systems are designed with that in mind for the most part. So no I think the current engine works well enough for a star trek feel albeit at the cost of a flight sim feel.

    Pacing: I'd have to say the pacing felt perfect between levels 20 and 30, even up to 40 for the most part. At those levels your shields didn't fall to a single shot without three abilities active and you had to ration your abilities instead of simply spamming them. In addition you had the time to change your shield facings and reinforce them in combat instead of relying or nearly requiring tac team like you do at end game. I blame poor scaling in how much your ability to increase your resistances and heal increasing dramatically while your overall total shield and hull amounts don't really go up by much. All just IMHO.
  • zeratkzeratk Member Posts: 409
    edited December 2012
    bareel wrote: »
    360 Space: Honestly to me trek didn't really seem to emphasis the 3d nature of space all that much. Even in the big dominion war battles all the ships just formed into 'lines' and shoot one another, even the weapon systems are designed with that in mind for the most part. So no I think the current engine works well enough for a star trek feel albeit at the cost of a flight sim feel.

    There were small crafts in ST using all the bandwith of 3-dimensional space. Additionally it was shown that the Defiant can roll-over.

    BoP as well, used a more steep argument a couple of times, than it is possible in STO.
    This is Crypticverse... :mad:
  • mwgacy1mwgacy1 Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    misterde3 wrote: »
    you can fly and do backflips (look at 5mins in).*

    You can do them in STO too, well 360 flip's in the air at least, not quite flying.

    screenshot_2012-12-06-23-54-13.jpg

    Yes, I'm aware that the image has an unfortunate angle but the animation's quite fast and it's hard to get an upside down character shot. I'll try it with trouser's next time.
  • maxvitormaxvitor Member Posts: 2,213 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Don't feel massive enough? Do a 10v10 PvP and see the problem with that.

    If it's enemies you want, do the No-win scenario or a Foundry mission with lots of NPC enemies to shoot at.

    Also, on the 360 degree maneuverability: Even if the starships in Star Trek didn't appear to obey some principle of gravity, we still wouldn't have that sort of maneuvering in this game. . .and for two good reasons. One, the game engine isn't designed for that. Two, human beings aren't designed for that. Do people have any idea how disorienting 360 degree combat mechanics would be through a 2D screen of limited capabilities? :P
    I think you missed the point of what I said. I was not referring to the number of targets, or maybe I was but not by what you mean, for the most part I was talking about the ambiance of the encounters, there are too many weaker enemies and with the sound effects it makes the encounters feel tiny, little ships with tiny weapons shooting at other little ships, there should be fewer but more powerful enemy targets and sound effects should have a deeper resonance to give the impression of size.
    On 360 degree maneuverability the game engine has nothing to do with it, you pitch up or down and you can fly in that direction, the only reason you can't go straight up or roll and invert is because of an arbitrary limit set on that degree of motion for the ships, not because the engine can't support it, Champions Online uses the same engine and has no such limitation on degrees of freedom, the only thing missing are roll controls, disorientation is not a factor, auto-righting is already built into the engine. How humans are designed is a non issue, humans have adapted well to operating aerobatic aircraft and spacecraft in the real world and the limitations of a 2D screen hasn't adversely affected players of fighter sims. That aside 360 flight doesn't bring anything of necessity to the game, 1 or 2000 foot long starships don't need to flit around like fighter jets, in fact it's less realistic if they do, but they could at least remove the limit on pitch angle so that ship can rise or dive without having to waste movement to get at targets above or below them.

    All that aside, the real reason the game lacks a Star Trek feel is that Star trek isn't really about combat, it's about people, there is not enough interaction, not enough exploration, not enough puzzles and experiments, Scanning something should open a tricorder mini game that requires you to select parameters of the scan, repairing something should open a puzzle mini game that requires you to move and replace objects, but instead it's all go there, right click and wait, or shoot this, come here and collect reward, rinse and repeat.
    If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
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