We don't. Escorts with 4 DHC and 3 CT on rapid fire will have bigger chance to proc-kill cruiser then it will have with 4 rear beams against eascort. Even with broadside it's still just 8 beams on normal fire against 7 CRFing cannons.
Anyone will be affected, but escorts will have biggest benefit from it.
Hm, well, more shield penetration is a good thing, isn't it? It will make escorts less tanky, and will make armor (and thus engineering console slots) more relevant.
Yes, everybody will be effected, but escorts the most. Don't you agree?
Yes I agree... a Rapid Fire cannon spewing escort is going to make you cry... is that what you mean ?
No, I mean that it will blow up more easily before it is finished with blowing up something else. Don't you agree? If not, why?
Because the escort is going to have 7 cannons on you with rapid fire running and is likely going to proc you more... they are also going to be procing you with DHC that will hit for 6-10k in pure kinetic 100% to you hull... where as the average hit from a cruiser is more in the 2k range. (nothing to do with rapid fire procing more... just if you had a choice of procing a 100% kinetic hit on a Rapid Fire 3 Alpha DHC hit or a Beam which would you take... my DHC crit for 10-15k pretty regular... can you spare 15K in hull very often. lol)
If this change goes though sci ships and cruisers are toast. Ships that can arc high dmg dhc are going to make short work of them.
Now you can hit your RSP all you want.... a all cannon escort can just keep firing away... and if there sub nuke doffs don't proc its ok chances are either a phaser proc will shut your shield off... or a Kinetic Strike on a DHC will help that along.
I could live with the kinetic dmg..but everything on plasma fire :rolleyes:
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
My issue is with getting hit for 5k+ on Crits to my Hull from a Kinetic Transformed DHC/Turret combo repeatedly and being able to do nothing to block it except for Polarized Hull, Hazard emitters, and use Kinetic resist consoles.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
My issue is with getting hit for 5k+ on Crits to my Hull from a Kinetic Transformed DHC/Turret combo repeatedly and being able to do nothing to block it except for Polarized Hull, Hazard emitters, and use Kinetic resist consoles.
Aux to damp, brace for impact
Edit: didnt they change aux to damp shared cooldown ? isn't it possible to have 100% uptime now with 2 copies ?
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
We'll see soph I don't see this as a good thing for cruisers at all though.
Frankly your BO shots in a cruiser... are going to always be pathetic... honestly think of it this way... if you have 2 copies of tac init up you have
4 rolls per min to proc a kinetic hit on one... and it will land for around the same dmg as a dhc crit yes.
The average Escort hits 15% crit chance on there dhc....
Most fire 4 per ROUND.
I will say conservatively a half decent escort will land 15 rounds per min of cannons.
Thats 60 DHC per min... vs FOUR Beam Overload hits.
You can count on 9 of them to be crits based on that math...
Based on ONLY crit DHC strikes its still 20% chance to land one every min vs 9% for the cruiser with BO running.
Not counting crits... the escort has a 78% chance to land at least 1 kinetic hit (I know the cruiser chances of regular beam hits are higher to... its just dmg amount though... often beams don't break 1k for most cruisers)... the chances of multiple hits arn't exactly low either. Having said that I don't know if there is an internal limiter on the amount of prcos that can happen ect.... in anyway the math doesn't point to this being a boon for cruisers I don't think.
My issue is with getting hit for 5k+ on Crits to my Hull from a Kinetic Transformed DHC/Turret combo repeatedly and being able to do nothing to block it except for Polarized Hull, Hazard emitters, and use Kinetic resist consoles.
See people say I'm crazy for not running RPS and sticking to my aux to damps... ha I'm ahead of the curve.
Okay, so the tac escort's DHC procs and critically hits with 15k raw damage (how often will this happen, the crit and the proc hitting at the same time? This is not a rhetoric question!). Many people will still use Neutronium, so you should expect a cruiser to soak about 40% of those 15 away with armor, leaving something like 9k of damage coming through. Which is about 20% of the cruiser's hitpoints, usually less.
The cruiser, critting his BO in the same way by adding crit and proc at the same time, will do something like 15k, too, vs an escort that can probably not hope for much more than 30% resistances, leaving something like 10k of damage. That is 30% of the escort's hitpoints, usually less.
Those are very rough numbers, of course, but even in the scenario you describe, where the damage-buffing ability (CRF or BO) plus a crit plus a proc all strike together, I see no one-shot kills being the rule.
However, what is interesting now is: How often will that happen? How much 100% shield bleedthrough kinetic damage can be expected over 1 minute between the two exemplary ships?
Cruisers not built for murder won't crit outside of extremely freak incidents, sometimes just from the (relatively) small crit chance buff you get from APA. If you built a cruiser based on stopping people and loaded with snares you might have something, but otherwise you're blowing out hot air. You won't crit the same way an escort will in a million years.
Aux to Damp, Forgot. And you can't exactly keep Brace for impact up all the time. I guess it would give another use for the other Brace for Impact doff, the one that Gives you resists to everything when you use Brace for Impact.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
To me, this sounds more like you were believing CRF and DHC's in general were too powerful when compared to beams, and that the new procs just make that more visible?
DHC are more power full then beams... that is working as intended. Which is why a brain dead proc that simply translates energey dmg into 100% shield pen kinetic favors the highest dmg creating weapons.
DHC have the worst arcs and are restricted to the only DPS class (with a few DPS crossbreeds) in the game... yes they are more powerful by design and get the most bang out of this new proc for sure.
Aux to Damp, Forgot. And you can't exactly keep Brace for impact up all the time. I guess it would give another use for the other Brace for Impact doff, the one that Gives you resists to everything when you use Brace for Impact.
*cough* you mean the hazard doff. I use this one now and then already. lol ya it got a boost sort of I guess.
I have been using the aegis set again cause I love it... but the fact that they change the dmg type when it comes through the shield it makes that bonus uesless...
The dmg should at least remain as the same type of dmg the beam is...
If this proc MUST exist which I hope it doesn't Have to exist... at least don't change the dmg to Kinetic for seemingly no reason at all. Call it a Shield Harmonic proc or something stupid and leave the dmg type alone.
The numbers are pretty hilarious when you think about it. Chunking a poor dude through full shields for ~10k+ kinetic that he couldn't possibly have prepared resists for? That's nasty! Dealing ~2.5% true damage (effectively multiplying it by the mind-boggling extra you'd usually lose to energy resists) over the course of a game? That, gentlemen, is nasty. Case closed.
Actually there are a lot of 'scorts that can slot as much armor as your typical cruiser... I know the Fleet Saber can take four, same with the Patrol in all likelihood, the Jem is one where a lot of people stack armor since you already outturn everything anyway...
Fleet stuff hasn't been too kind to cruisers, I'm not sure that their armor advantage is any exception.
Ya 4 engi slots in multiple escorts... not like I can't put 3 neuts + a mono in my bug If I really felt I needed to.
Not seeing to much upside for cruisers on this one... I mean they have more hull to start with... but they also have less defense... one tractor beam and you can string crits on most cruisers pretty easily. That trick doesn't work on most PvPin escorts anymore.
ya 4 Engi Slots In Multiple Escorts... Not Like I Can't Put 3 Neuts + A Mono In My Bug If I Really Felt I Needed To.
Not Seeing To Much Upside For Cruisers On This One... I Mean They Have More Hull To Start With... But They Also Have Less Defense... One Tractor Beam And You Can String Crits On Most Cruisers Pretty Easily. That Trick Doesn't Work On Most Pvpin Escorts Anymore.
Another reason I worry about this Kinetic Proc.. Is that 2.5% chance, same as all other procs, seems to go off WAY more then you'd expect. Why do you think that Phasers finally for the change they did? (And are still pretty annoying! >.<) Imagine being hit with Polaron Disruptors with the romulan set.. You'd have 4 different procs possible to fire off: Plasma Dot, Polaron Dot, Disruptor Debuff, and A chance to just make the shot Kinetic and straight to hull.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Another reason I worry about this Kinetic Proc.. Is that 2.5% chance, same as all other procs, seems to go off WAY more then you'd expect. Why do you think that Phasers finally for the change they did? (And are still pretty annoying! >.<) Imagine being hit with Polaron Disruptors with the romulan set.. You'd have 4 different procs possible to fire off: Plasma Dot, Polaron Dot, Disruptor Debuff, and A chance to just make the shot Kinetic and straight to hull.
I was just out having a smoke and thinking about this. 2.5% - pretty horrible odds; but in STO - it's not bad at all - not bad at all - lol. Heck, think about how often a 1% procs. They're giving mines/torps a 5% for the kinetic proc? Does 5% = 100% uptime?
And though much is being made of cannons - I'm still picturing the Spiral Waves and FAW.
even your BO argument works better if applied to escorts. The Escort can run 2 copies of BO3, +APO3/APB3 AND keep you in arc with a DBB. That's going to hit just as often as a beam array with BO1+2, but A LOT harder.
Add to that that the escort is a lot more difficult to actually hit with a BO (and we know they miss a lot...), as it has higher movement defence.
Really, a serious BO3-DBB hit with full tac buffs and APB3 can one-shot just about anyone if shields are ignored...
The only thing that could possibly make this proc ok, would be... If the kinetic beam does not copy it's damage from what the un-procced shot would be, but is calculated seperately. This would mean you don't get any damage bonus from tac consoles, and possibly not from skill specs either. In wich case this proc will be no more useful than DEM, and everything will be just fine.
I'm actually much more worried about the placate (wich is always a party pooper) and the shield heal. (yes... just what we need... more shield heals! /facepalm )
Actually there are a lot of 'scorts that can slot as much armor as your typical cruiser... I know the Fleet Saber can take four, same with the Patrol in all likelihood
I can confirm that my Fleet Patrol has 4 engi slots. I ofc use them to boost my shield power by a total of 10! Now that's God-mode for ya!
So by the sounds of it I haven't missed much while playing my console games and waiting for EoN and C&C online. If anything the only thing I am missing is frustration.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
Comments
Anyone will be affected, but escorts will have biggest benefit from it.
Yes I agree... a Rapid Fire cannon spewing escort is going to make you cry... is that what you mean ?
Because the escort is going to have 7 cannons on you with rapid fire running and is likely going to proc you more... they are also going to be procing you with DHC that will hit for 6-10k in pure kinetic 100% to you hull... where as the average hit from a cruiser is more in the 2k range. (nothing to do with rapid fire procing more... just if you had a choice of procing a 100% kinetic hit on a Rapid Fire 3 Alpha DHC hit or a Beam which would you take... my DHC crit for 10-15k pretty regular... can you spare 15K in hull very often. lol)
If this change goes though sci ships and cruisers are toast. Ships that can arc high dmg dhc are going to make short work of them.
Now you can hit your RSP all you want.... a all cannon escort can just keep firing away... and if there sub nuke doffs don't proc its ok chances are either a phaser proc will shut your shield off... or a Kinetic Strike on a DHC will help that along.
Honesty this change favors Escorts quite a bit.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Aux to damp, brace for impact
Edit: didnt they change aux to damp shared cooldown ? isn't it possible to have 100% uptime now with 2 copies ?
Frankly your BO shots in a cruiser... are going to always be pathetic... honestly think of it this way... if you have 2 copies of tac init up you have
4 rolls per min to proc a kinetic hit on one... and it will land for around the same dmg as a dhc crit yes.
The average Escort hits 15% crit chance on there dhc....
Most fire 4 per ROUND.
I will say conservatively a half decent escort will land 15 rounds per min of cannons.
Thats 60 DHC per min... vs FOUR Beam Overload hits.
You can count on 9 of them to be crits based on that math...
Based on ONLY crit DHC strikes its still 20% chance to land one every min vs 9% for the cruiser with BO running.
Not counting crits... the escort has a 78% chance to land at least 1 kinetic hit (I know the cruiser chances of regular beam hits are higher to... its just dmg amount though... often beams don't break 1k for most cruisers)... the chances of multiple hits arn't exactly low either. Having said that I don't know if there is an internal limiter on the amount of prcos that can happen ect.... in anyway the math doesn't point to this being a boon for cruisers I don't think.
See people say I'm crazy for not running RPS and sticking to my aux to damps... ha I'm ahead of the curve.
Cruisers not built for murder won't crit outside of extremely freak incidents, sometimes just from the (relatively) small crit chance buff you get from APA. If you built a cruiser based on stopping people and loaded with snares you might have something, but otherwise you're blowing out hot air. You won't crit the same way an escort will in a million years.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
DHC are more power full then beams... that is working as intended. Which is why a brain dead proc that simply translates energey dmg into 100% shield pen kinetic favors the highest dmg creating weapons.
DHC have the worst arcs and are restricted to the only DPS class (with a few DPS crossbreeds) in the game... yes they are more powerful by design and get the most bang out of this new proc for sure.
Adding this proc is terrible for balance yes.
*cough* you mean the hazard doff.
I have been using the aegis set again cause I love it... but the fact that they change the dmg type when it comes through the shield it makes that bonus uesless...
The dmg should at least remain as the same type of dmg the beam is...
If this proc MUST exist which I hope it doesn't Have to exist... at least don't change the dmg to Kinetic for seemingly no reason at all. Call it a Shield Harmonic proc or something stupid and leave the dmg type alone.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Fleet stuff hasn't been too kind to cruisers, I'm not sure that their armor advantage is any exception.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Not seeing to much upside for cruisers on this one... I mean they have more hull to start with... but they also have less defense... one tractor beam and you can string crits on most cruisers pretty easily. That trick doesn't work on most PvPin escorts anymore.
this ^^^^^^
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Bwahahahhhaaahhahaahaa rolflorlforllol
But seriously. Can we get these also in different colors. I like rainbows
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
I was just out having a smoke and thinking about this. 2.5% - pretty horrible odds; but in STO - it's not bad at all - not bad at all - lol. Heck, think about how often a 1% procs. They're giving mines/torps a 5% for the kinetic proc? Does 5% = 100% uptime?
And though much is being made of cannons - I'm still picturing the Spiral Waves and FAW.
even your BO argument works better if applied to escorts. The Escort can run 2 copies of BO3, +APO3/APB3 AND keep you in arc with a DBB. That's going to hit just as often as a beam array with BO1+2, but A LOT harder.
Add to that that the escort is a lot more difficult to actually hit with a BO (and we know they miss a lot...), as it has higher movement defence.
Really, a serious BO3-DBB hit with full tac buffs and APB3 can one-shot just about anyone if shields are ignored...
The only thing that could possibly make this proc ok, would be... If the kinetic beam does not copy it's damage from what the un-procced shot would be, but is calculated seperately. This would mean you don't get any damage bonus from tac consoles, and possibly not from skill specs either. In wich case this proc will be no more useful than DEM, and everything will be just fine.
I'm actually much more worried about the placate (wich is always a party pooper) and the shield heal. (yes... just what we need... more shield heals! /facepalm )
I can confirm that my Fleet Patrol has 4 engi slots. I ofc use them to boost my shield power by a total of 10! Now that's God-mode for ya!
Increased resistance to drains, disables, and improved recovery if they are drained/disabled.
He is a truthful person he has never had any reason 2 lie 2 any 1