Here's where I believe the 'invisibility' option falls down.
I think you're assuming that all griefers are basically aggressively and blatantly obnoxious. That they aren't creative enough to find passive-aggressive means of messing up other players.
I've been using the word 'invisibility', but it would probably be more accurate to say that your proposal would put griefers 'out of phase' with the people ignoring them.
You've stated that these people could still effectively interact with the community in some ways, while taking away their ability to interfere with specific other players. For example, co-existing in the same STF as someone who is ignoring them.
That won't work.
#1 - Teamwork would be fundamentally broken. Even if the griefer was willing to cooperate with the rest of the team, there would be a broken communication link, at least two teammates would be unable to target each other with heals and buffs, and at least two teammates will be severely hampered by an inability to directly assist each other.
#2 - PvP would be fundamentally broken. The griefer and the ignorer will be unable to target each other. They don't belong in the same instance and this condition is detrimental to a fair PvP match. It also opens up the possibility that the griefer uses the ability to ignore another player to make himself effectively invulerable to that player.
#3 - There's more than one way to grief. This doesn't stop people from going AFK during a match, deliberately blowing objectives, intentionally aggroing mobs, and possibly even more creative forms of griefing. An ignored griefer is more than able to cause a team to fail an STF and possibly subject them to leaver penalties if they try to bail out.
Again, it remains to be seen whether Cryptic is willing to institute such a system and devise solutions for the problems that it creates. I don't believe it is as simple as you are making it out to be.
That said, I'm not entirely against it and it probably would help in some ways. But without the ability to effectively separate griefers from their victims in every way that matters, people will find ways to be obnoxious if they're really determined to be.
At the very least, the system should actively prevent ignored players from being in the same team or mission as those who are ignoring them. And it shouldn't be possible to put players on ignore in the middle of a mission or a match. Otherwise, the door is still open for abuse.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Here's where I believe the 'invisibility' option falls down.
I think you're assuming that all griefers are basically aggressively and blatantly obnoxious. That they aren't creative enough to find passive-aggressive means of messing up other players.
All the Griefers that this suggestion was originally posted for, are all interested in Impeding another players gameplay, and do on a regular basis. There are entire Fleets devoted to this activity, more than 1 fleet, I will add. And there are many ways that Griefers find to be obnoxious, but as stated in previous post, if they continue to be obnoxious to others since my solution will stop them from harrassing the same player, Then those Griefers will find themselves alone, and it will have been by their choice. They Choose to Harrass and Violate the Rules that Protect the game from that type of Player.
I've been using the word 'invisibility', but it would probably be more accurate to say that your proposal would put griefers 'out of phase' with the people ignoring them.
You've stated that these people could still effectively interact with the community in some ways, while taking away their ability to interfere with specific other players. For example, co-existing in the same STF as someone who is ignoring them.
That won't work.
"That won't work." is an opinion not based on fact, programming fact or the opinion of the development staff.
#1 - Teamwork would be fundamentally broken. Even if the griefer was willing to cooperate with the rest of the team, there would be a broken communication link, at least two teammates would be unable to target each other with heals and buffs, and at least two teammates will be severely hampered by an inability to directly assist each other.
#2 - PvP would be fundamentally broken. The griefer and the ignorer will be unable to target each other. They don't belong in the same instance and this condition is detrimental to a fair PvP match. It also opens up the possibility that the griefer uses the ability to ignore another player to make himself effectively invulerable to that player.
#3 - There's more than one way to grief. This doesn't stop people from going AFK during a match, deliberately blowing objectives, intentionally aggroing mobs, and possibly even more creative forms of griefing. An ignored griefer is more than able to cause a team to fail an STF and possibly subject them to leaver penalties if they try to bail out.
This is again something that can be resolved, but is not the concern of the main issue here as you will always have people go afk for whatever reason and it may not be because they are griefing, so I do not consider this a problem that is part of the reason for this suggestion. STF and FA's already have penalties for early Leavers and people will always go out of their way to destroy objectives, this would happen regardless of ignored players being teamed. This is another area of suggestion of how to handled, but not part of the reasoning behind this suggestion.
As stated in the above post and replies this concerns where the main greifing is; which are social and community areas.
Again, it remains to be seen whether Cryptic is willing to institute such a system and devise solutions for the problems that it creates. I don't believe it is as simple as you are making it out to be.
Yes it does remain to be seen whether Cryptic/PWE will institute this, which is why this thread is not closed and was directed to be posted in this Community Feedback Section.
That said, I'm not entirely against it and it probably would help in some ways. But without the ability to effectively separate griefers from their victims in every way that matters, people will find ways to be obnoxious if they're really determined to be.
This is the suggestion that does effectively separate the Griefer from the players being Griefed. That is the reason for this suggestion and as provided there is much argument that backs the idea based on Facts and the present Ignore system, and lack thereof.
At the very least, the system should actively prevent ignored players from being in the same team or mission as those who are ignoring them. And it shouldn't be possible to put players on ignore in the middle of a mission or a match. Otherwise, the door is still open for abuse.
I agree, that the idea that works out how to effectively not team ignored players with each others is something that would not doubt be addressed, but should be addressed by the Dev Team if this idea is something they wish to work with. However I think it is reasonable to say since this system is based on a Database Structure that there is no doubt that a scripting solution can be accomplished that would avoid teaming ignored players.
As I stated I do have a reasonable amount of experience in scripting and the understanding of what a task like this involves. I am not however experienced with the exact engines nor database system that is currently used by STO.
I can only offer the information I have and the suggestion, no matter how you look at this or what argument you have to say it will or will not work, that is something only the developers can truly and intelligently give answer to.
This is an issue in the game, one that Violates the Terms of Service, Impedes Players Enjoyment, and has caused players to leave the game permanently to seek other gameplay outside of STO. It causes many Reports of Harrassment and Violations of ToS, which causes unnecessary work for GM's, in Long now I suppose, this is a problem that needs to be addressed whether it my suggestion or a suggestion formulated by someone else.
If my suggestion is unreasonable, I implore you to suggest another Solution as the concern here is to put an end to the harassment in a Financially and Community responsible way, that grows our community, not punish those who come to enjoy the community that we have all built and thrive to keep alive.
I am arguing this suggestions points to see that a reasonable solution is found in the most responsible and cost effective way for the longevity of the game and it's community that supports it, without the need to institute punishments beyond the most simplistic.
On a special note. I admire your arguments Bluegeek, however I feel that as you are a community moderator, you would be understanding to the trolling and the issues that trolling and griefing can cause in Game as much as it does in the Forums. It is unwanted, unnecessary and totally uncalled for in any environment. As a community moderator that is a primary concern of yours, and as a dedicated player I have made this a primary concern of mine.
[/COLOR] On a special note. I admire your arguments Bluegeek, however I feel that as you are a community moderator, you would be understanding to the trolling and the issues that trolling and griefing can cause in Game as much as it does in the Forums. It is unwanted, unnecessary and totally uncalled for in any environment. As a community moderator that is a primary concern of yours, and as a dedicated player I have made this a primary concern of mine.
Believe me, I am no fan of trolling in any form.
As a Community Moderator I believe I also have an idea how difficult it can be to deal with it in a way that's fair to everybody and doesn't cause other problems.
As someone who works in IT and has a fair understanding of logic, programming, and technology I am also aware that sometimes things aren't straightforward.
Yes, any technical problem can be solved or worked around with enough time, creativity, and resources... and without a good business case and management priority those are usually in short supply. Sometimes the "solutions" end up causing more trouble than the problem they were supposed to fix.
My goal here is not to staunchly oppose your idea no matter what... but to point out what I feel are areas of concern and to help make sure that the Devs have thought of all the angles and seen all of the flaws.
If the Devs are able to cover most of the bases and create a workable solution one way or the other, I'm all for it.
I can't help feeling a bit dubious that they can do that anytime soon, or easily. It wouldn't be the first time, or even the second time, that we've been told that the peculiarities of the game engine can't do X because it wasn't designed to work that way. Some of those issues are still not resolved as far as the players are concerned.
That said --
I would support this kind of "Total Ignore" in Zone chat and other public channels, in Tells, and in non-Combat, Social areas, provided there is little or no impact to game performance.
I will support it if it goes both ways... Neither the Ignorer nor the Ignoree should even be aware that the other is even in the same instance, and no F/X generated by one should be visible to or affect the other.
I would also support it if it makes every reasonable effort to keep the Ignorers and the Ignorees in separate instances in PvP and PvE scenarios. Perhaps generating additional queues as needed to make sure that happens, although they'd run the risk of having difficulty in filling queues as a result.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I also like the OPs suggestion, it allows the community to self police with immediate noticeable results, but I don't see it as being viable.
Personally I haven't really payed attention to the immature behavior being mentioned, I'm aware of it, but since the offenders are essentially impotent, I ignore them and go about my business, making believe that this behavior is nothing more than the normal antagonism that might occur when hostile parties are forced to interact unsupervised on neutral territory. What's missing is the local constabulary cracking skulls to keep the ruckus from getting out of hand.
It would be nice if I could just "switch the offenders off" but it would not be terribly realistic if I had that ability, anyone who has had to deal with panhandlers, gangs and the mentally disturbed in public can well understand what I'm saying.
The Question now would mainly be, how complicated would this ignore system be to implement? Ignoring chat is easy enough but to completely negate an irritating individual would require isolation of all data flow produced by the offender from being received by the client ignoring him. Does the server track individual actions in such a way to allow this kind of isolation. STO is one of few MMOs that actually incorporates collision data, players can jostle each other, this further complicates a "total ignore". I just don't see how it could be implemented without a perhaps radical redesign of the game client.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Love the idea but I have no idea as to it's feasibility.
The key problem with online/virtual interaction is that it misses out the checks and balances that occur in 'physical' society. What deters most people from acting like this in the 'real' world is the fear of consequences, i.e, being arrested or getting a smack in the mouth. However, in the virtual world we all become anonymous and it becomes too difficult to punish social disorder outside of the most serious cases.
What we need is a way for those who behave contrary to society's rules (in this case the T&Cs of STO) to be punished. The problem is, short of having people's home address show up in their character bio (J/K, although you can feel free to enjoy imagining throttling trolls on their doorstep), how does a virtual society punish actions that are committed by a physical person in a virtual reality?
As the playerbase can take no action against those who violate the T&Cs it falls to the Devs and/or moderators to 'police' those situations. *
* Although in certain situations most civilised countries will prosecute such deviants through the legal system for antisocial behaviour such as; stalking, threatening behaviour, account theft, and of course abuse. If in doubt throw a lawyer at the problem (or out of a window if you want to make the world a better place...).
***The above ramblings are, as always, my own opinion. Based on my experiences and interpreted by my mind, they by no means reflect the universal truth (unless coincidentally). Peace.***
i myself have been here since beta and you have "the players" and "the whiners". You have "the observers" and "the opinion hearted". I love the game, but like other people I see things that need to be fixed and or addressed, so I say whats on my mind. Like it or hate it, somethings really do need to addressed, and usually its people observations on the forums that can generate that.
An additional to this, it is slowly being learned that these griefers are causing players to quit the game. I know of quite a few now that have left over this idiocy and have returned to other games or have found new ones to play.
So is it worth the cost of losing players that would be here for the long term of the game, just to allow those who care nothing for the rules to continue to slowly but sure kill the player base?
I find the lack of coming up with a feasible solution or the enforcement of the rules to be detrimental to the longevity of this franchise.
With all the recent changes to the game, players are upset enough. Allowing griefers to continue to go unchecked is just one more Black Mark that makes players unhappy.
We wouldn't need to be talking about an system design to allow us to self police if the current system wasn't so ineffective, pulling a ticket to flag a player for abuse usually results in no action taken whatsoever, the victim having to be content with a vague "we are investigating but we will not inform you if action is taken against to offending player" automated response if they get any response at all.
Being able to completely isolate oneself from an offensive player would be an ideal solution but at this stage learning to live with it is the best we do until those who can do something about the problem actually do something.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
This happens in any MMO where you have a role play element, and a 'hard core' gameplay element. It happens when there is no enforcement of anti harassment policies or policies that are not clear.
That said, I don't think that your solution is a good one given the problems that Bluegeek laid out, and given there will more than likely be some horrible bugs that will appear with such a system.
This game already has several bugs, and new ones are added every patch.
Think about what would happen if the system flagged you for everyone. You would be invisible, and unable to interact with anyone.
Just think about pets such as turrets, drones and mortars on the ground, and fighters and mines in space. What would happen if the system mistakenly flagged you as hostile to the other party in a social, open zone, or even an STF? (You vs Him vs the Borg: Fun Fun Fun)
How about the queue for STFs hating on you because it sees a 'Flag" but can't reconcile it with the STF leaver penalty flag?
Both parties are rendered hostile to everyone. :eek:
The people on your ignore list end up on your friends list, and vice versa.
The person you use this on becomes not invisible, but a big white box, that can now follow you around and be even more immersion breaking.
You become a big white box to the target.
Everyone but the target becomes invisible to you. Welcome to hell. :eek:
You become unable to interact with NPCs and interactible objects.
The list could go on....but I hope you get the idea. It would be another system within the game to cause yet more bugs.
Also this feature would allow you to basically create a virtual instance where ever you go by "erasing" the "undesirable" elements. How much different is that than Bluegeek's private instance suggestion? You would end up having all the people you don't like invisible to you while the others who don't bother with RP anyway, ignoring you. How different would that be from creating your own instance and going there?
Fleet starbases are good social hubs for like minded people...undesirables simply cannot get in unless you invite them. They even have a multitude of NPC's roaming around to add atmosphere. The KDF starbase is amazing as far as atmosphere goes...the bar is really nice and has a killer fireplace.
If you really want to be at a dump like Drozana, you can simply put the person on ignore and switch instances as the system works now. They would have to cycle through all the instances to find you.
You could also use the foundry to create an RP themed mission.
There are things that you can do to alleviate the situation on your end. Some may work better than others. A fix for something that can be taken care of by modifying your behavior is not something I would support when there are MANY outstanding issues that need to be addressed. You cannot dictate the actions of others in an MMO with no reinforcing mechanic, all you can do is make adjustments to yours.
I do sympathize with your plight, I have seen this happen before to RPers in other games. I can understand your frustration, at the seeming inaction on Cryptic's part. However I do not believe that this will really remedy the situation.
Cryptic needs to step up and enforce the anti harassment portion of the TOS. This would be more effective than "fix" that could damage more than it fixes.
OMG, what if visually ignoring another player caused a total protonic reversal and every molecule in your body exploded at the speed of light?! That would SUCK!
Seriously, my congratulations. That was the most amazing straw man argument I've ever seen. Nevermind that most of the scenarios listed are completely outlandish, but by that logic we shouldn't add anything new, ever. What if the Vesta causes a bug? Better hold that back. And Season 7? Oh man, that'll be a disaster. No more new content.
He makes a valid argument, sarcasm isn't necessary, adding a ship is an entirely different thing from what could be essentially re-engineering the game client with all of the problems that could entail. It's one thing if the client is in early development, adding and removing things are much easier at that early stage, but for a live client in use it's considerably more complicated. I don't think anyone will be happy if an ignore feature makes the game so unstable that it's virtually unplayable.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Sorry, that was unnecessarily grumpy, it was a bit late.
My point is, there's no reason to assume that any of the scenarios stated would result from the requested feature. Rather than following from observation and evidence, it's just imagining all sorts of doomsday scenarios. It's poor form for an argument, since it is a straw man. Instead of addressing the argument being made ("We need to be able to visually ignore griefers"), it constructs an entirely separate problem ("The game tends to have lots of bugs"), then proceeds to attack that. Needing a better ignore feature and needing better QA testing are two entirely separate issues, and we need to keep this thread focused on the actual topic.
Guys, why not simply make them hidden in maps tagged as social zones? There's hardly any combat there.
However it's true that such a thing would likely make the game even laggier and slower.
Also, the private instance thing sounds like a nice idea, but it kinda beats the point of 'open' RP. You can't have strangers come in and RP with you normally unless you have a specialized channel from which you can invite people to private instances.
There's also the problem of location: Every known private instancing system in STO so far has transported you instantly to that location, returning you to your point of origin when you left. Would this be the same, or would you have to be in a public instance of the map before you could be invited?
Whole lot of things that would need to be worked out before ANY form of griefer isolation can begin. Fortunately, Drozana is the only place subjected to such behavior. So far. Unless you count DS9 or ESD zone chats?
Still, I fully support the base idea behind all of the suggestions in this thread. 1000000000000000 percent.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
While I am extremely sympathetic to your position, I am concerned that you have probably given the griefers and trolls exactly what they most desire: attention.
if i don't like something i just ignore it. or as the post above states DO NOT give them any attention.
sorry but if u want a role play game then go find a role play game not a mmo.
ive never understood why people want to waste their time buy 'walking' around by them self and they griefing cus someone gets in the way.
and even if thats the case there is plenty u could do to walk around. how about the starbase u can beam in and walk around as much as u want with no one around.
you cant expect the whole game poipulation to act a certain way and role play just because a few people want too. you have your starbase rp to your hearts content.
public area is public if people want to jump on walls climb things (btw i seen devs in dronza doing this) they will. also i doubt there is as many people as u imply that WANT to anoy a role player they are just playing in a public envioment everyone is not out to get you!.
An additional to this, it is slowly being learned that these griefers are causing players to quit the game. I know of quite a few now that have left over this idiocy and have returned to other games or have found new ones to play.
So is it worth the cost of losing players that would be here for the long term of the game, just to allow those who care nothing for the rules to continue to slowly but sure kill the player base?
I find the lack of coming up with a feasible solution or the enforcement of the rules to be detrimental to the longevity of this franchise.
With all the recent changes to the game, players are upset enough. Allowing griefers to continue to go unchecked is just one more Black Mark that makes players unhappy.
if players are leaving its becuase they fed up with endless grind and no content or even factions.
no one is forcing you to stay if you are unhappy leave. not everyone is role player with the mental attiude that everyone is out to get them or the game should be changed to suit a few that want to rp in a mmo
I, for one, endorse the absolute Oblivion style of ignore where the other person may as well not exist and you do not exist to them. It is the only real option for totally solving the issue altogether.
That said, lol, I have not really met this "RP" community of which folks speak of. I see one or two RP'ers on raaaaare occasion. I suspect they are rather small but I would not mind hooking up with them sometime. As I have not done so though I rarely get very bothered by folks. The most I get are "Challenges" which are fun the first few times I turn someone into space dust but then it gets old.
no one is forcing you to stay if you are unhappy leave. not everyone is role player with the mental attitude that everyone is out to get them or the game should be changed to suit a few that want to rp in a mmo
Never presume to know the mental attitude of another you don't know. I am by far the only role player in this game, this is also not just about the role players, this happens to new players joininng the game, social interactive players and yes I will be you have run into players that just cause you grief in stf's, fa and more.
Your right, no one forces me to stay in this game, however I am here fighting to make the community a better place for everyone. Offering a solution to clean up the problems that others think it is best to ignore here, yet whine about in game.
From Fleet bank thieves to those who go afk in STF's or just blow them for fun. These are the griefers people like you complain about in game and in your fleet chats.
That said, here I am finding a reasonable solution for the problems that we as players can manage ourselves. MMO is Role Play as much as grind fest. Massive Multiplayer Online, this means a community built of a player base of all types.
Many of us pay to play here, we spend hard earned cash, to be told I have to just allow players to harass everyone I know around me who enjoys an aspect of this game because they do not. Is not only idiotic it is a statement that usually comes from those who are afraid they will be the ones standing in a area alone if my suggestion were implemented.
My mental attitude is to stand up to all the things about griefing in this game, that need to be addressed. This is our community, a Star Trek Community, not a Griefers Community!
if players are leaving its becuase they fed up with endless grind and no content or even factions.
no one is forcing you to stay if you are unhappy leave. not everyone is role player with the mental attiude that everyone is out to get them or the game should be changed to suit a few that want to rp in a mmo
People who enjoy other aspects of the game are those that will be here because they have more to do. You don't understand why people enjoy role playing in this game? Well it is because we have far more to do than grind until we are sick of it and then leave.
This is why this part of the community is the longevity and future of this game, when the MMO Grinders as I assume you consider yourself, will leave when your bored.
No one dictates to you how to play the game, it is called NOT IMPEDING ANOTHERS ENJOYMENT OF THE GAME. Precisely what this suggestion concerns and why.
Another vote for an ignore function that renders the player nonexistent to you.
I can envision so many gratifying uses for that, I'd even consider paying money for the option.
And don't give me a bunch of TRIBBLE about the "social aspect" of the game. Aside from queued missions and red alerts, any social aspect of this game is an afterthought at best. There is no additional value to be had in requiring me to interact with annoying kids.
[Silently he unholsters the [Zombie Control Sniper Rifle of Epicosity Mk XIV], shoots and takes this Zombie thread down!]
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Comments
I think you're assuming that all griefers are basically aggressively and blatantly obnoxious. That they aren't creative enough to find passive-aggressive means of messing up other players.
I've been using the word 'invisibility', but it would probably be more accurate to say that your proposal would put griefers 'out of phase' with the people ignoring them.
You've stated that these people could still effectively interact with the community in some ways, while taking away their ability to interfere with specific other players. For example, co-existing in the same STF as someone who is ignoring them.
That won't work.
#1 - Teamwork would be fundamentally broken. Even if the griefer was willing to cooperate with the rest of the team, there would be a broken communication link, at least two teammates would be unable to target each other with heals and buffs, and at least two teammates will be severely hampered by an inability to directly assist each other.
#2 - PvP would be fundamentally broken. The griefer and the ignorer will be unable to target each other. They don't belong in the same instance and this condition is detrimental to a fair PvP match. It also opens up the possibility that the griefer uses the ability to ignore another player to make himself effectively invulerable to that player.
#3 - There's more than one way to grief. This doesn't stop people from going AFK during a match, deliberately blowing objectives, intentionally aggroing mobs, and possibly even more creative forms of griefing. An ignored griefer is more than able to cause a team to fail an STF and possibly subject them to leaver penalties if they try to bail out.
Again, it remains to be seen whether Cryptic is willing to institute such a system and devise solutions for the problems that it creates. I don't believe it is as simple as you are making it out to be.
That said, I'm not entirely against it and it probably would help in some ways. But without the ability to effectively separate griefers from their victims in every way that matters, people will find ways to be obnoxious if they're really determined to be.
At the very least, the system should actively prevent ignored players from being in the same team or mission as those who are ignoring them. And it shouldn't be possible to put players on ignore in the middle of a mission or a match. Otherwise, the door is still open for abuse.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I agree, that the idea that works out how to effectively not team ignored players with each others is something that would not doubt be addressed, but should be addressed by the Dev Team if this idea is something they wish to work with. However I think it is reasonable to say since this system is based on a Database Structure that there is no doubt that a scripting solution can be accomplished that would avoid teaming ignored players.
As I stated I do have a reasonable amount of experience in scripting and the understanding of what a task like this involves. I am not however experienced with the exact engines nor database system that is currently used by STO.
I can only offer the information I have and the suggestion, no matter how you look at this or what argument you have to say it will or will not work, that is something only the developers can truly and intelligently give answer to.
This is an issue in the game, one that Violates the Terms of Service, Impedes Players Enjoyment, and has caused players to leave the game permanently to seek other gameplay outside of STO. It causes many Reports of Harrassment and Violations of ToS, which causes unnecessary work for GM's, in Long now I suppose, this is a problem that needs to be addressed whether it my suggestion or a suggestion formulated by someone else.
If my suggestion is unreasonable, I implore you to suggest another Solution as the concern here is to put an end to the harassment in a Financially and Community responsible way, that grows our community, not punish those who come to enjoy the community that we have all built and thrive to keep alive.
I am arguing this suggestions points to see that a reasonable solution is found in the most responsible and cost effective way for the longevity of the game and it's community that supports it, without the need to institute punishments beyond the most simplistic.
On a special note.
I admire your arguments Bluegeek, however I feel that as you are a community moderator, you would be understanding to the trolling and the issues that trolling and griefing can cause in Game as much as it does in the Forums. It is unwanted, unnecessary and totally uncalled for in any environment. As a community moderator that is a primary concern of yours, and as a dedicated player I have made this a primary concern of mine.
Fleet Eclipse Intel Cruiser
Believe me, I am no fan of trolling in any form.
As a Community Moderator I believe I also have an idea how difficult it can be to deal with it in a way that's fair to everybody and doesn't cause other problems.
As someone who works in IT and has a fair understanding of logic, programming, and technology I am also aware that sometimes things aren't straightforward.
Yes, any technical problem can be solved or worked around with enough time, creativity, and resources... and without a good business case and management priority those are usually in short supply. Sometimes the "solutions" end up causing more trouble than the problem they were supposed to fix.
My goal here is not to staunchly oppose your idea no matter what... but to point out what I feel are areas of concern and to help make sure that the Devs have thought of all the angles and seen all of the flaws.
If the Devs are able to cover most of the bases and create a workable solution one way or the other, I'm all for it.
I can't help feeling a bit dubious that they can do that anytime soon, or easily. It wouldn't be the first time, or even the second time, that we've been told that the peculiarities of the game engine can't do X because it wasn't designed to work that way. Some of those issues are still not resolved as far as the players are concerned.
That said --
I would support this kind of "Total Ignore" in Zone chat and other public channels, in Tells, and in non-Combat, Social areas, provided there is little or no impact to game performance.
I will support it if it goes both ways... Neither the Ignorer nor the Ignoree should even be aware that the other is even in the same instance, and no F/X generated by one should be visible to or affect the other.
I would also support it if it makes every reasonable effort to keep the Ignorers and the Ignorees in separate instances in PvP and PvE scenarios. Perhaps generating additional queues as needed to make sure that happens, although they'd run the risk of having difficulty in filling queues as a result.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Personally I haven't really payed attention to the immature behavior being mentioned, I'm aware of it, but since the offenders are essentially impotent, I ignore them and go about my business, making believe that this behavior is nothing more than the normal antagonism that might occur when hostile parties are forced to interact unsupervised on neutral territory. What's missing is the local constabulary cracking skulls to keep the ruckus from getting out of hand.
It would be nice if I could just "switch the offenders off" but it would not be terribly realistic if I had that ability, anyone who has had to deal with panhandlers, gangs and the mentally disturbed in public can well understand what I'm saying.
The Question now would mainly be, how complicated would this ignore system be to implement? Ignoring chat is easy enough but to completely negate an irritating individual would require isolation of all data flow produced by the offender from being received by the client ignoring him. Does the server track individual actions in such a way to allow this kind of isolation. STO is one of few MMOs that actually incorporates collision data, players can jostle each other, this further complicates a "total ignore". I just don't see how it could be implemented without a perhaps radical redesign of the game client.
The key problem with online/virtual interaction is that it misses out the checks and balances that occur in 'physical' society. What deters most people from acting like this in the 'real' world is the fear of consequences, i.e, being arrested or getting a smack in the mouth. However, in the virtual world we all become anonymous and it becomes too difficult to punish social disorder outside of the most serious cases.
What we need is a way for those who behave contrary to society's rules (in this case the T&Cs of STO) to be punished. The problem is, short of having people's home address show up in their character bio (J/K, although you can feel free to enjoy imagining throttling trolls on their doorstep), how does a virtual society punish actions that are committed by a physical person in a virtual reality?
As the playerbase can take no action against those who violate the T&Cs it falls to the Devs and/or moderators to 'police' those situations. *
* Although in certain situations most civilised countries will prosecute such deviants through the legal system for antisocial behaviour such as; stalking, threatening behaviour, account theft, and of course abuse. If in doubt throw a lawyer at the problem (or out of a window if you want to make the world a better place...).
So is it worth the cost of losing players that would be here for the long term of the game, just to allow those who care nothing for the rules to continue to slowly but sure kill the player base?
I find the lack of coming up with a feasible solution or the enforcement of the rules to be detrimental to the longevity of this franchise.
With all the recent changes to the game, players are upset enough. Allowing griefers to continue to go unchecked is just one more Black Mark that makes players unhappy.
Fleet Eclipse Intel Cruiser
Being able to completely isolate oneself from an offensive player would be an ideal solution but at this stage learning to live with it is the best we do until those who can do something about the problem actually do something.
That said, I don't think that your solution is a good one given the problems that Bluegeek laid out, and given there will more than likely be some horrible bugs that will appear with such a system.
This game already has several bugs, and new ones are added every patch.
Think about what would happen if the system flagged you for everyone. You would be invisible, and unable to interact with anyone.
Just think about pets such as turrets, drones and mortars on the ground, and fighters and mines in space. What would happen if the system mistakenly flagged you as hostile to the other party in a social, open zone, or even an STF? (You vs Him vs the Borg: Fun Fun Fun)
How about the queue for STFs hating on you because it sees a 'Flag" but can't reconcile it with the STF leaver penalty flag?
Both parties are rendered hostile to everyone. :eek:
The people on your ignore list end up on your friends list, and vice versa.
The person you use this on becomes not invisible, but a big white box, that can now follow you around and be even more immersion breaking.
You become a big white box to the target.
Everyone but the target becomes invisible to you. Welcome to hell. :eek:
You become unable to interact with NPCs and interactible objects.
The list could go on....but I hope you get the idea. It would be another system within the game to cause yet more bugs.
Also this feature would allow you to basically create a virtual instance where ever you go by "erasing" the "undesirable" elements. How much different is that than Bluegeek's private instance suggestion? You would end up having all the people you don't like invisible to you while the others who don't bother with RP anyway, ignoring you. How different would that be from creating your own instance and going there?
Fleet starbases are good social hubs for like minded people...undesirables simply cannot get in unless you invite them. They even have a multitude of NPC's roaming around to add atmosphere. The KDF starbase is amazing as far as atmosphere goes...the bar is really nice and has a killer fireplace.
If you really want to be at a dump like Drozana, you can simply put the person on ignore and switch instances as the system works now. They would have to cycle through all the instances to find you.
You could also use the foundry to create an RP themed mission.
There are things that you can do to alleviate the situation on your end. Some may work better than others. A fix for something that can be taken care of by modifying your behavior is not something I would support when there are MANY outstanding issues that need to be addressed. You cannot dictate the actions of others in an MMO with no reinforcing mechanic, all you can do is make adjustments to yours.
I do sympathize with your plight, I have seen this happen before to RPers in other games. I can understand your frustration, at the seeming inaction on Cryptic's part. However I do not believe that this will really remedy the situation.
Cryptic needs to step up and enforce the anti harassment portion of the TOS. This would be more effective than "fix" that could damage more than it fixes.
___
Seriously, my congratulations. That was the most amazing straw man argument I've ever seen. Nevermind that most of the scenarios listed are completely outlandish, but by that logic we shouldn't add anything new, ever. What if the Vesta causes a bug? Better hold that back. And Season 7? Oh man, that'll be a disaster. No more new content.
My point is, there's no reason to assume that any of the scenarios stated would result from the requested feature. Rather than following from observation and evidence, it's just imagining all sorts of doomsday scenarios. It's poor form for an argument, since it is a straw man. Instead of addressing the argument being made ("We need to be able to visually ignore griefers"), it constructs an entirely separate problem ("The game tends to have lots of bugs"), then proceeds to attack that. Needing a better ignore feature and needing better QA testing are two entirely separate issues, and we need to keep this thread focused on the actual topic.
However it's true that such a thing would likely make the game even laggier and slower.
Also, the private instance thing sounds like a nice idea, but it kinda beats the point of 'open' RP. You can't have strangers come in and RP with you normally unless you have a specialized channel from which you can invite people to private instances.
There's also the problem of location: Every known private instancing system in STO so far has transported you instantly to that location, returning you to your point of origin when you left. Would this be the same, or would you have to be in a public instance of the map before you could be invited?
Whole lot of things that would need to be worked out before ANY form of griefer isolation can begin. Fortunately, Drozana is the only place subjected to such behavior. So far. Unless you count DS9 or ESD zone chats?
Still, I fully support the base idea behind all of the suggestions in this thread. 1000000000000000 percent.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
if i don't like something i just ignore it. or as the post above states DO NOT give them any attention.
Simply ignoring griefers is enough.
ive never understood why people want to waste their time buy 'walking' around by them self and they griefing cus someone gets in the way.
and even if thats the case there is plenty u could do to walk around. how about the starbase u can beam in and walk around as much as u want with no one around.
you cant expect the whole game poipulation to act a certain way and role play just because a few people want too. you have your starbase rp to your hearts content.
public area is public if people want to jump on walls climb things (btw i seen devs in dronza doing this) they will. also i doubt there is as many people as u imply that WANT to anoy a role player they are just playing in a public envioment everyone is not out to get you!.
good day sir.
if players are leaving its becuase they fed up with endless grind and no content or even factions.
no one is forcing you to stay if you are unhappy leave. not everyone is role player with the mental attiude that everyone is out to get them or the game should be changed to suit a few that want to rp in a mmo
That said, lol, I have not really met this "RP" community of which folks speak of. I see one or two RP'ers on raaaaare occasion. I suspect they are rather small but I would not mind hooking up with them sometime. As I have not done so though I rarely get very bothered by folks. The most I get are "Challenges" which are fun the first few times I turn someone into space dust but then it gets old.
Never presume to know the mental attitude of another you don't know. I am by far the only role player in this game, this is also not just about the role players, this happens to new players joininng the game, social interactive players and yes I will be you have run into players that just cause you grief in stf's, fa and more.
Your right, no one forces me to stay in this game, however I am here fighting to make the community a better place for everyone. Offering a solution to clean up the problems that others think it is best to ignore here, yet whine about in game.
From Fleet bank thieves to those who go afk in STF's or just blow them for fun. These are the griefers people like you complain about in game and in your fleet chats.
That said, here I am finding a reasonable solution for the problems that we as players can manage ourselves. MMO is Role Play as much as grind fest. Massive Multiplayer Online, this means a community built of a player base of all types.
Many of us pay to play here, we spend hard earned cash, to be told I have to just allow players to harass everyone I know around me who enjoys an aspect of this game because they do not. Is not only idiotic it is a statement that usually comes from those who are afraid they will be the ones standing in a area alone if my suggestion were implemented.
My mental attitude is to stand up to all the things about griefing in this game, that need to be addressed. This is our community, a Star Trek Community, not a Griefers Community!
Fleet Eclipse Intel Cruiser
People who enjoy other aspects of the game are those that will be here because they have more to do. You don't understand why people enjoy role playing in this game? Well it is because we have far more to do than grind until we are sick of it and then leave.
This is why this part of the community is the longevity and future of this game, when the MMO Grinders as I assume you consider yourself, will leave when your bored.
No one dictates to you how to play the game, it is called NOT IMPEDING ANOTHERS ENJOYMENT OF THE GAME. Precisely what this suggestion concerns and why.
Fleet Eclipse Intel Cruiser
the only thing i wish i could ignore is the "someone sell me a jem'hadar dreadnought for 1ec PLEEEZ!" spammers on esd
I can envision so many gratifying uses for that, I'd even consider paying money for the option.
And don't give me a bunch of TRIBBLE about the "social aspect" of the game. Aside from queued missions and red alerts, any social aspect of this game is an afterthought at best. There is no additional value to be had in requiring me to interact with annoying kids.
Yes how dare people role play in a MMORPG....:rolleyes:
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kalecto