I decided to come back for a little while (got bored with all my other games), and while I'm interested to a small degree about Season 7, I do think the cost of laying is way too high.
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It seems to me that a lot of the people on this forum come from the time of the subscription model and havent understood how free2play works.
I've spend most of my gaming time over the last year playing a successfull f2p tank game (don't know if i'm allowed to name names here), so let me tell you about what i learned there.
A subscription based game model is very easy to understand:
The user pays a fee to the developer, therefore the developer provides content as good and satifying as possible to the user, therefore the user pays a fee to the developer again and so on till all eternity.
A free2play game works completly different.
First the developer provides content to the player, then the player has to enjoy the content so he keeps playing. At some point then the player has to start paying the developer. Usually this is encouraged by the developer by frustrating the player in some way. Wouldn't it be nice to have this? Wouldn't it be easier not to have to do this? From now on the developer has to balance frustrating the player enough so he pays and satisfying him enough so he keeps playing.
I came to STO, because the developers of the other game fustrated me too much and i decided to look for a less frustrating way to spend my time.
I actually liked a lot of what i saw here.
What i do realize now is, that most of the stuff i like here still comes from the subscription times. Now it seems to me that the developers try to more and more push the f2p model, and that seems to come as quite a shock to the old time players.
For players f2p means that they have to be aware of the motives of the developers, and not trust them to have the players best interest in mind.
The starbase system is a great example for how f2p works, as its just a lot less frustrating if you are willing to pay money.
And it doesn't come as a big suprise to me, that this system will be extended to the doff system and to the advancement/loot system ( called Reputation and apparently a awesome new feature).
On a sidenote, i once read an interview with the lead developer of that other game, where he explicitly stated that the transformation from subscription to f2p doesn't work, because you have to train your players from the beginning (carrot and stick), and i think what happens in this thread is exactly what he ment.
Those are some good points. Thanks for that write-up.
I'm fairly certain that this thread is a complete knee-jerk overreaction due to conclusions drawn from incomplete information from partially implemented changes on a test server where changes happen on a regular basis.
...just like the other several thousand "sky is falling" threads that have happened since before this game was in beta.
I'm fairly certain that this thread is a complete knee-jerk overreaction due to conclusions drawn from incomplete information from partially implemented changes on a test server where changes happen on a regular basis.
...just like the other several thousand "sky is falling" threads that have happened since before this game was in beta.
Yeah, probably, but it doesn't hurt to put the devs on notice that we are paying attention to the undocumented changes on the test server. Maybe they will get a better sense of what the players find acceptable and for what is pushing change too far.
I'll agree with the OP, say that some of the Season 1-4 stuff that got changed for Season 5 actually seems fun (you know, the primary reason why anyone plays a game), and say this:
If you want people to NOT play your game, this is a good way to do it.
People can only focus on so many things before they start going crazy and find it's just not worth the time or effort.
It gets worse when everything they do want requires a grind to evenunlock, much less purchase.
It gets abysmal when even the most basic stuff costs grind materials and time to obtain.
Technically, Cryptic/PWE are holding true to their word: You don't have to spend real cash on this game to unlock content or progress in the storyline. It's still technically F2P.
Just be prepared to make STO your full-time job.
Eventually, players will get tired of this. They won't buy any Zen because they'll see right through the massive need for Dilithium, which is to convert purchased Zen into Dilithium and use it to unlock the shiny new weapons and other gear.
Then Cryptic/PWE's wallet will take a hit. And PWE won't like that.
Suggestions:
1a) Reverse a lot of the grind stuff.
or
1b) Make rewards a lot bigger to make it worth it. If you're going to charge 1,000 Dilithium for a DOFF pack, for example, give us perhaps 10 DOFFs? Or a guarantee of a Rare DOFF?
2) Let us multi-task! Want us to grind STFs? Fine. Let me earn some Diltihium too so I can help my fleet as well as myself. I already know at least one Romulan ground queue will reward Fleet Marks and Romulan Marks. Stuff like this. But I think the consensus will be if so many things will require Dilithium that the "multi-task" mix needs to be Marks + Dilithium.
3) Don't award meager amounts of Marks for your queues. The reason I stick with mostly just "Investigate Officer Reports [Daily]" is the Fleet Mark reward: 50-60, depending on if you have a Fleet Mark boost. Along 3 characters, that's 180 Fleet Marks I can give my Fleet. And it takes practically no time to do. You want us to advance? Want us to play your content? Give us a reasonable rate of earning. If the Borg part of the Reputation system takes 1,000 Omega Marks to complete to get to Tier I, then each STF could award perhaps 20-30 minimum? With increases for difficulty, completing optional objectives, or taking out a certain amount of some enemy ship (for examples).
I guess what I'm saying is, your customers have to feel they're getting value out of their play experience. If they see they're giving a ton of time for such little reward, they'll give it up. That's why this thread is here. And that's why I'm making the suggestions I'm making.
Originally Posted by pwebranflakes View Post
There has been nothing decided at this time on how this will affect the "Investigate Officer Report" daily -- feel free to include feedback in this thread on what you would like to see/ not see happen if there were a change.
Leave it alone in my honest opinion, it is not hurting the economy and its a way for players to continue to grind for their fleet starbase projects and at the same time enjoy foundry missions with a good reward.
Yes, there are some that use it to farm with the quick missions, but others legitimately use it as they enjoy playing the foundry missions like myself. I too also use it as a farming tool.
If anything, I say leave the rewards intact and per toon, and simply exam the foundry missions themselves. If any changes are to be made, let it be in the foundry files.
It's free dilithium and alt leveling with no work. Ultimately it's not very good for the game, but it's likely such a small effect that it doesn't matter much. And it is a bit like welfare and minimum wage .... but then fake foundry missions is probably the wrong way to accomplish that.
First of all comparing the Daily report to welfare or minimum wage is BAD analogy. As far as "NO WORK," you're confusing things in a general sense of things. You yourself even stated that it has a small effect that it probably doesn't even matter.
Lets get with no work part - First: Money and time invested - People "BUY," character slots - It COST money to have an extra toon slot - second, when it comes to farming a daily it usually determines the amount time invested - I can have 30 toons and farm the daily and it will take me up to 3 and 1/2 hrs - thats a long time for a small return in Zen when converting from dilithium.
It is not free Dilithium, since I am still working for it, whether it be a 1min foundry assignment or a 1/2hr one, all for a measely 1,440 Dilithium crate.
I belong to an elite group of people that do STFs, we can do all three SPACE STFs at around 5 to 8minutes apiece with a cool down of 1/2hr for each STF. It is quicker to bang out all three STFs in a matter of 21min per character.
Though the Daily is faster across the board with all my farming toons, the rewards from my STFs daily runs net the biggest revenue in regards to Dilithium - and on top of that, any loot that can be exchange for a Dilithium box nets an even greater amount of Dilithium.
Someone with 4 toons or less is barely making a dent in the Dilithium economy, and someone with 20+ toons earned their keepsake merely because they invested money in acquiring toon slots. There is nothing wrong with the Daily Officer Report mission rewards, if anything they should just examine the missions themselves. However; I feel this is small and unimportant issue that just serves as a distraction to more important gameplay issues.
In regards to alt leveling, seriously now, I've played through the entire game with 4 or 5 toons already - How is leveling my alts via story missions going to improve the Fun factor, it is the same as grinding. The foundry files is a good way to LEVEL alts, the quicker an alt levels the faster one can do STFs and get end game items. I and many others earned their keep after beating the game. Its the same when there was no skipping the tutorial, it was a hassle and tiresome at best. leave it be, we're graspng at straws with this one.
Try repeating that to someone with 35+ toons, ouch - hell no
... but the best way to do that seems to be to repeat the same 3 STF's over and over. And since the rewards are kinda across characters but kinda not, you really want to earn dilithium on as many characters as possible too. At a minimum it's free zen.
Its NOT free if you are grinding for it, I can say the same for the mining mini game, whip those suckers fast on all my toons. Again you are poking at something insignificant compared to larger issues at play. Not everyone has 10+ toons or more, very few folks do.
I would probably shift the 'free' dilithium and XP from foundry missions to the Doff system. Dilithium in particular. .... at least make players fly around and work, and progress some story arcs and get some other useful stuff into the game world.
How is this any different? Its worse, since you get additional rewards while doffing - also keep in mind, NOT every player doff or like to doff. AS far as the upcoming season 7 changes to doff acquisition it will make things even more painful for the playerbase. You in turn want them to force the doff system on everyone, the doff system is another silly grind minigame.
In the end the issue is the state of the game than a measly foundry file, why use a tactical nuke to kill a fly? There is no need for it. All this talk about welfare, minimum wage etc... is foolish talk and has no place here - BAD analogy need to be left out, this is NOT real life work.
I come to play STO and socialize, not Grind if it were a second job. If I wanted to work, I'll take up residence at my real life job place.
I wish Mr Stahl would step in and make some comments. This is his job. He should not be hiding in the shadows, people would much rather hear more from him than less. Your customers need to hear from you Mr Stahl before some of them leave. There is nothing but benifit by coming on here and saying that you are listening.
There are many other issues: the academy doff pack recruitement will cost 1k dil to buy. I know fleet doffs are too easy to get but why did you made that so cheap? If you're trouble selling the c-store stuff you should wonder why you can't sell it and improve it instead of charging for what we used to have for free. At the very least you could also limit the free systems instead of charging.
I don't mind about "grinds", as long as it's not ultra repetitive, cheap and stupid content such as the season 6 space missions and the S7 Azure nebula. Nukara is for me the bare minimum in terms of content quality. It's fine but something looking cheaper and with less 'story' shouldn't be in such a game.
I'm not opposed to change, really, but when it's for the worse, it's not acceptable. Charging for every small feature isn't something acceptable to me and as soon as I have the feeling that I log in a giant shop I'll stop playing this game. It has to remain a game, I don't want to play Wallmart online.
I'm ok to give money as long as I feel it's not mandatory at all. I'm here to play a game and not a supermaket!
As I mentioned on page 6, I'll be passing this thread along to the dev team, so feel free to leave constructive feedback. Flaming, trolling, harassing material or anything else breaking the forum's rules will not be tolerated, so please watch your posts or you will receive warnings or infractions from the Mod team and myself. This is your friendly reminder
I have gotten some more information for you that I wanted to share:
All existing STF grind currencies are eliminated and REPLACED with a different STF grind currency
While they are being replaced, the new "currency" (I personally wouldn't call Marks a currency) will also be available from gameplay outside of STFs. This allows you to play different content and still earn rewards, including if you don't have a team available for a STF or don't wish to use the public queues. This also means that rewards cost significantly less in time.
Existing Reman Datalog grind currency eliminated and REPLACED with a different Romulan grind currency
While they are being replaced, the new "currency" (again, I personally wouldn't call Marks a currency) will also be available from a wide variety of gameplay. Currently, Reman Datalogs are only available from the Vault Shuttle Event, and only during the special hourly event. Players should be able to earn their Reman set a lot easier with this change, or use those same Marks for a variety of other rewards. This change allows the player to choose what rewards they want to work on, using the same Marks.
Developers already indicating we won't come out "whole" in the conversion - conversion details not announced
As an avid STFer myself, from what I've seen, I think everyone will be taken care of. Watch for a dev blog on the conversion next week (or the week after at the latest).
Space and ground STF items now cost dilithium in addition to the new STF grind currency
Yes, this is part of the reputation system, but the items cost significantly less in time than how they are currently obtained. I have only one complete XII ground set, among all my characters who run STFs, and looking at this new system, I couldn't be more excited. Watch for Tribble patch notes for when this goes to testing, and make sure to leave your feedback in the official feedback thread that gets created. As a player, I'm very happy with what I've seen.
Dilithium prices for grinding Duty Officers up from one quality to the next are dramatically increased| Free Academy recruitment Duty Officer packs eliminated and replaced with one that costs dilithium
As noted, the Dilithium prices have been increased, yes. Please leave your feedback on this in this thread or the Tribble forums.
Again, constructive feedback is welcome and the devs are watching this thread
Thanks Brandon for keeping on top of this. I notced you did not bring up the Investigate Officer report and the "Console Clicking" Issue. Some more info would be appreciated.
Nailed it, OP. This sums up my problems with the game perfectly; I'm tired of being charged multiple times for the same thing. Items and ships should either cost time or money, but not both.
Yup. You're not the only one. Cryptic, don't try to cover up a lack of content by trying to slow down our access to current content with mindless grinding and a plethora of currencies. Get persistent elements into the game, more FE's, and more mini-games. Consolidate the currencies into just a few, three at the most. Everything requiring large amounts of dilithium is turning this game into an all-out grindfest. Also, please stop fooling us with the 400 c-points stipend when every action you're taking makes those 400 points less valuable.
The game feels just plain stale at this point. There aren't any new customization options added, no new missions, no territory control. I literally played for 30 minutes the other day before quitting because I was so bored.
As noted, the Dilithium prices have been increased, yes. Please leave your feedback on this in this thread or the Tribble forums.
Again, constructive feedback is welcome and the devs are watching this thread
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Thanks for updating, but "as noted" only applies to us noting it and mentioning it. Why are changes like this (and I harken back to the fleet-doffs-not-usable-in-fleet-projects debacle) not communicated in patch notes? It makes the angry pitch fork crowd even angrier if we discover these things as stealth changes instead of being informed of the changes.
so Sto is going to die in season 7 like every Star Trek series.
Doff dilithium price will kill it flat.
If the masters that be think people will use ingame earned dilithium or use real money to get doffs for starbase they are mistaken.
I urge the makers to reconsider this move,it is a bad one imho.
Yup. You're not the only one. Cryptic, don't try to cover up a lack of content by trying to slow down our access to current content with mindless grinding and a plethora of currencies. Get persistent elements into the game, more FE's, and more mini-games. Consolidate the currencies into just a few, three at the most. Everything requiring large amounts of dilithium is turning this game into an all-out grindfest. Also, please stop fooling us with the 400 c-points stipend when every action you're taking makes those 400 points less valuable.
AGREED. I have been in this game since the start. But i play less and less. And from what I am seeing, i dont think I will be playing after Season 7. There are too many other games out there where the DEVs are trying to make their games fun. I get the feeling that PWE is not looking to make this game fun any more and that they don't want me as a loyal customer. I feel they just want as much money from as they can get before they move on to Neverwinter.
"Star Trek Online is powered by the most abundant resource in the galaxy . . . Gullibility"
While they are being replaced, the new "currency" (I personally wouldn't call Marks a currency) will also be available from gameplay outside of STFs.
....
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
what would you call it?
"Star Trek Online is powered by the most abundant resource in the galaxy . . . Gullibility"
You can fool some people all of the time, and all people some of the time...but you CAN'T FOOL ALL PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME...
Look - the dev silence is deafening; there's a reason ALL of the currency changes haven't been put on Tribble, which is baffling considering it's ostensibly a "test" server. All I can imagine is that they know people will be torqued when they find their EDCs and such have been turned into "Whatever Marks" with less utility and less value overall.
Oh - and leave the BORG set alone, and buff the Aegis set ffs.
So I above I commented specifically on the officer reports dilithium conundrum. But I think this is important enough to hear opinions on the broader topic.
The OP tends to confuse 'grind' with 'reason to do something'. There's no easy way around it, you have to give people a reason to log in every day and do content, or they're only going to log in once every 3 months, play a few mission, and leave. That's not a sustainable future. That's both a grind and designing a game worth playing at the same time, and it's a walking on a knife edge to find the balance between something players will want to do every day and something players feel they need to do every day, but are sick of.
Now a lot could be added to the 'grind' to make it more enjoyable, basically randomness, different types of enemies, different situations I might need to react to so it requires I'm actually paying attention. The 'no win scenario' is kind of the right idea but there are better alternatives.
The first, and most basic issue for STO is more players, versus more money per player, and then the secondary question is: more characters doing less stuff each, or less characters doing more stuff each.
Right now you're neck deep in the 'more money per player' camp. Which strongly alienates anyone who doesn't have a pile of money and isn't already invested in the game. One of my friends tried the game for the first time a couple of months ago, and his feedback was basically "I need to pay for everything, but I don't know what anything is actually worth paying for", and then naturally, he quit. And that pretty much sums up everything wrong with the Zstore and lockboxes. Player should be free to choose which of their characters to play at any given time, and the game shouldn't force them to pick a favourite early by buying stuff that's only redeemable on one character/faction. Maybe this week I want to play my KDF sci/Kar'fi, but normally I like my fed tac/escort best. But if I buy a regent assault cruiser for my fed guys to try out I've just spent 25 bucks, and maybe I discovered I'd rather have a big tactical heavy cruiser on my KDF toon. Well that's another 25 bucks, or just ... don't. Looking at that decision, I wouldn't even try and make it. Too much risk that I'd waste 25 bucks. I can't even try out 25 dollar ships anywhere to see if I'd like them (or worse, 25 dollar consoles, which is what a lot of the ships are). Everything reasonably possible in the Z-Store and Lobi should be a per account unlock, not a per character unlock, and everything on the zstore and lobi vendor should be free on tribble or redshirt (or both) periodically, but well, you can frequently delete those characters too.
On the general problem of grindy dilithium. Dilithium is exchangeable in real time between your characters at a what, 0.6% loss rate. So it's basically a per account thing anyway, just make it a per account thing. Every character should start with a refining limit of say 3000/day, and every 10 levels gains another 1000 per day limit. (KDF should probably start at 3000 still, but gain 1k at 30, 2k at 40, and 2k at 50) - but that should contribute to your account wide refining limit. This would let me pick which character I want to grind stuff on at least, and eliminate some of the headaches of jumping between characters. It also means you could scale dilithium rewards to the level of the character doing stuff so it's no longer advantageous to be doing an investigate officer reports daily at level 25 on 7 different characters.
On other progression currencies: I understand what you were trying to do with the borg stuff. But seriously, there are what 21 different items that become currencies. Who thought this up? How can they call themselves a star trek fan even, star trek explicitly notes they have tried to do away with money (which is a core failure of the world, but at least one should minimize the various monies) - and you're introducing 21 items that are all basically a form of barter exchange. Either way, you're done away with most of that now, so we can move on somewhat. All borg STF stuff should be for dilithium with S7 (except maybe loot from any new stfs), all existing borg stuff converted into dilithium and just let people move on. Every time you add a new 'tier' or layer of stuff that's better than old stuff just push all the old stuff into dilithium. I can buy fleet items, one 'new' tier item and dilithium. And keep yourselves to that. I know that's not what you're doing. But you should do that. Failing that, I see omega marks, fine, let omega marks convert to dilithium and everything from STF's can be omega marks, but still, you're making this more complicated than it needs to be. Alienating new players and all that.
On that thought, why is GPL still a currency? I understand you may have some RP attachment to it, but it's never going to work now that you've got it in game and some of us have 700k gpl from god knows what, and other people have to gamble at some EC -> GPL rate that is just a waste of time, get rid of it. Or pretend all EC are GPL or whatever, but having GPL and EC is a stupid idea. Sorry. It is. And it's too late now to fix it. Maybe make a separate GPL economy and let me buy a D'kora with it, but that's just a huge amount of work on your end for a bad idea that will favour anyone who had prototype consoles and knew to sell them, or waste player time on the non fun activity of actually grinding out GPL in exchange for EC.
The basic criticism, that costs for zen stuff is too high (given the risk that it will become basically a 25 dollar console) - that's true. It's a lot of money on an uninformed choice (since I can't try the ships or consoles first). And the lockboxes and master keys thing is just gambling, and dubiously legal gambling at that (given that you are selling this service to people not in California or China you have to be careful that you are likely in breach of gambling rules in various provinces and states).
STO lets you create all these really interesting looking characters, that you can RP in very interesting ways. And then says 'oh but stick to one faction unless you're rich', because unlocks are per faction if they're per account at all. It's becoming 'pay to win' and that's a path to a death spiral, those aren't your customers, and it is antithetical to Star Trek as a franchise and as an ideal. Well maybe the only customers you have left are happy to pay, but that's not a great market to be in. The entire business model is premised on extracting more and more from addicts who can afford it. What could possibly go wrong?
Seriously - the lockboxes and the zen store full of things that I might, but might not want is very much opposed to the ideals that star trek embodies, about fairness and egalitarianism, that the solution to problems and opportunities come from people making honest choices, which means your business model is opposed to your target customer base. To quote your great competition 'you should go home and rethink your life'.
Other thoughts: You should more generously rewards certain people. The lifetime sub stipend at 500 makes sense, since it's for the life of the game, but 'gold' members who pay 15 bucks a month should get 1500 zen *and* the benefits of being gold members. Anyone who spends >1500 zen in a month (or redeems a card) should get gold benefits for the month etc. If you want to sell character slots, bank slots, account bank slots, (I'm not sure why anyone would want ship slots, but ok, ship slots), convenience stuff, novelty stuff (rather than ships you should be selling reskins for ship classes, armour overlays etc.) that's fine. But if you sell me a 25 dollar (or 50 dollar!) ship it should unlock something equivalent on *both* factions etc.
Admittedly, I'm putting myself squarely in the camp of saying you want more customers, not more money per customer. But that's because your current business plan hasn't worked for anyone else outside of china, it risks putting you on the wrong side of the law, it's going to risk your license from CBS and it's creating an adversarial relationship with your customers, it's not an opportunity when you put something new up for sale, it's diluting the experience of the existing game for players who don't have 25 dollars for a new console for their ship, and it's inconsistent with your broad customer base. So you need to fix that. Unfortunately you need to fix a lot of your in game technology stuff too, because things like gravity wells that don't show up in the right place just looks sloppy, and you really need to clean up the gear sets for ships and players so they have more incremental improvements than just 2 pieces of armour and 2 guns.
TLDR: Stop using the rules of acquisition as your game design document.
Incorrect. There will be a way to earn dilithium from Elite STFs.
My interpretation of this is that we'll continue to get dilithium for completing an STF (is this for both normal and elite, or just the latter?). That's not what the poster was saying though -- it was being able to trade in salvage, tech, or EDC for dilithium. Since these won't exist as of Season 7, will Omega Marks be convertible to dilithium?
Thanks for your update. I'm glad to see it's being taken seriously. I have two comments for you though.
1) Marks are a currency
Marks, emblems, etc. were once part of the original dilithium merge almost a year ago. They were branded as such by the development team. While you could argue that STF and fleet marks aren't currency by definition, they play the same role. If marks aren't considered currency, neither should Lobi or GPL but they are both commonly considered as such.
2) Dilithium will kill DOffing
Consider what you are doing here. I can tell you personally that I won't be bothering with duty officers anymore once this change takes effect. At a minimum, reinstate the dismissal dilthium reward to compensate for this. This proposed change will marginalize one of the best features in the game.
Kobayashi Maru
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
While they are being replaced, the new "currency" (again, I personally wouldn't call Marks a currency) will also be available from a wide variety of gameplay. Currently, Reman Datalogs are only available from the Vault Shuttle Event, and only during the special hourly event. Players should be able to earn their Reman set a lot easier with this change, or use those same Marks for a variety of other rewards. This change allows the player to choose what rewards they want to work on, using the same Marks.
What about the Delta Data Daily flight logs? Some of my chars still have a few of those sitting around....
As I mentioned on page 6, I'll be passing this thread along to the dev team, so feel free to leave constructive feedback. Flaming, trolling, harassing material or anything else breaking the forum's rules will not be tolerated, so please watch your posts or you will receive warnings or infractions from the Mod team and myself. This is your friendly reminder
I have gotten some more information for you that I wanted to share:
Season 7 points from the OP
While they are being replaced, the new "currency" (I personally wouldn't call Marks a currency) will also be available from gameplay outside of STFs. This allows you to play different content and still earn rewards, including if you don't have a team available for a STF or don't wish to use the public queues. This also means that rewards cost significantly less in time.
Incorrect. There will be a way to earn dilithium from Elite STFs.
While they are being replaced, the new "currency" (again, I personally wouldn't call Marks a currency) will also be available from a wide variety of gameplay. Currently, Reman Datalogs are only available from the Vault Shuttle Event, and only during the special hourly event. Players should be able to earn their Reman set a lot easier with this change, or use those same Marks for a variety of other rewards. This change allows the player to choose what rewards they want to work on, using the same Marks.
As an avid STFer myself, from what I've seen, I think everyone will be taken care of. Watch for a dev blog on the conversion next week (or the week after at the latest).
Please see Bort's post yesterday here. The extra piece is being used in the new Borg alt set.
Yes, this is part of the reputation system, but the items cost significantly less in time than how they are currently obtained. I have only one complete XII ground set, among all my characters who run STFs, and looking at this new system, I couldn't be more excited. Watch for Tribble patch notes for when this goes to testing, and make sure to leave your feedback in the official feedback thread that gets created. As a player, I'm very happy with what I've seen.
Again, this is false. You can earn Dilithium from STFs if you play on Elite (among other rewards).
As noted, the Dilithium prices have been increased, yes. Please leave your feedback on this in this thread or the Tribble forums.
Again, constructive feedback is welcome and the devs are watching this thread
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
I think what we're suffering from in part, Brandon, is lack of information and surprise information that never was mentioned in Tribble notes.
When major changes happen, we need to have as much information as possible in order to judge whether we're better off or not. EDIT: So I am appreciative you and Borticus (the most prominent in these discussions) are providing more details on major changes instead of waiting.
From what we have, though, it seems we're not. It seems STO will turn into a job rather than a game.
That's a sure way to keep people away, and thus hurts Cryptic/PWE's wallet in the long-run.
Remember your goal: to keep Star Trek lovers as your long-term players. Increased grinding won't do it, and taking away avenues of taking care of multiple grinds in the same mission (Omega Marks + Dilithium not possible on Normal STFs, for example) will only make matters worse.
Comments
Those are some good points. Thanks for that write-up.
Not happy about any of the changes.
I speak for myself and the 500 member fleet I lead.
Dont break the STO
Peace
...just like the other several thousand "sky is falling" threads that have happened since before this game was in beta.
Raptr profile
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=419051
**Basic Break Down**
Its the most drastic NEGATIVE change to the game ever.
No dilithium for STFs
No more free DOFF packs
Borg set broken down to 3 piece set that inludes the Borg Shield, deflector and engine only.
No more trading EDC or salvage for Dilithium.
Trading up Doffs will cost you 1000, 2500 in Dilithium.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=419051
Yeah, probably, but it doesn't hurt to put the devs on notice that we are paying attention to the undocumented changes on the test server. Maybe they will get a better sense of what the players find acceptable and for what is pushing change too far.
If you want people to NOT play your game, this is a good way to do it.
People can only focus on so many things before they start going crazy and find it's just not worth the time or effort.
It gets worse when everything they do want requires a grind to evenunlock, much less purchase.
It gets abysmal when even the most basic stuff costs grind materials and time to obtain.
Technically, Cryptic/PWE are holding true to their word: You don't have to spend real cash on this game to unlock content or progress in the storyline. It's still technically F2P.
Just be prepared to make STO your full-time job.
Eventually, players will get tired of this. They won't buy any Zen because they'll see right through the massive need for Dilithium, which is to convert purchased Zen into Dilithium and use it to unlock the shiny new weapons and other gear.
Then Cryptic/PWE's wallet will take a hit. And PWE won't like that.
Suggestions:
1a) Reverse a lot of the grind stuff.
or
1b) Make rewards a lot bigger to make it worth it. If you're going to charge 1,000 Dilithium for a DOFF pack, for example, give us perhaps 10 DOFFs? Or a guarantee of a Rare DOFF?
2) Let us multi-task! Want us to grind STFs? Fine. Let me earn some Diltihium too so I can help my fleet as well as myself. I already know at least one Romulan ground queue will reward Fleet Marks and Romulan Marks. Stuff like this. But I think the consensus will be if so many things will require Dilithium that the "multi-task" mix needs to be Marks + Dilithium.
3) Don't award meager amounts of Marks for your queues. The reason I stick with mostly just "Investigate Officer Reports [Daily]" is the Fleet Mark reward: 50-60, depending on if you have a Fleet Mark boost. Along 3 characters, that's 180 Fleet Marks I can give my Fleet. And it takes practically no time to do. You want us to advance? Want us to play your content? Give us a reasonable rate of earning. If the Borg part of the Reputation system takes 1,000 Omega Marks to complete to get to Tier I, then each STF could award perhaps 20-30 minimum? With increases for difficulty, completing optional objectives, or taking out a certain amount of some enemy ship (for examples).
I guess what I'm saying is, your customers have to feel they're getting value out of their play experience. If they see they're giving a ton of time for such little reward, they'll give it up. That's why this thread is here. And that's why I'm making the suggestions I'm making.
Leave it alone in my honest opinion, it is not hurting the economy and its a way for players to continue to grind for their fleet starbase projects and at the same time enjoy foundry missions with a good reward.
Yes, there are some that use it to farm with the quick missions, but others legitimately use it as they enjoy playing the foundry missions like myself. I too also use it as a farming tool.
If anything, I say leave the rewards intact and per toon, and simply exam the foundry missions themselves. If any changes are to be made, let it be in the foundry files.
First of all comparing the Daily report to welfare or minimum wage is BAD analogy. As far as "NO WORK," you're confusing things in a general sense of things. You yourself even stated that it has a small effect that it probably doesn't even matter.
Lets get with no work part - First: Money and time invested - People "BUY," character slots - It COST money to have an extra toon slot - second, when it comes to farming a daily it usually determines the amount time invested - I can have 30 toons and farm the daily and it will take me up to 3 and 1/2 hrs - thats a long time for a small return in Zen when converting from dilithium.
It is not free Dilithium, since I am still working for it, whether it be a 1min foundry assignment or a 1/2hr one, all for a measely 1,440 Dilithium crate.
I belong to an elite group of people that do STFs, we can do all three SPACE STFs at around 5 to 8minutes apiece with a cool down of 1/2hr for each STF. It is quicker to bang out all three STFs in a matter of 21min per character.
Though the Daily is faster across the board with all my farming toons, the rewards from my STFs daily runs net the biggest revenue in regards to Dilithium - and on top of that, any loot that can be exchange for a Dilithium box nets an even greater amount of Dilithium.
Someone with 4 toons or less is barely making a dent in the Dilithium economy, and someone with 20+ toons earned their keepsake merely because they invested money in acquiring toon slots. There is nothing wrong with the Daily Officer Report mission rewards, if anything they should just examine the missions themselves. However; I feel this is small and unimportant issue that just serves as a distraction to more important gameplay issues.
In regards to alt leveling, seriously now, I've played through the entire game with 4 or 5 toons already - How is leveling my alts via story missions going to improve the Fun factor, it is the same as grinding. The foundry files is a good way to LEVEL alts, the quicker an alt levels the faster one can do STFs and get end game items. I and many others earned their keep after beating the game. Its the same when there was no skipping the tutorial, it was a hassle and tiresome at best. leave it be, we're graspng at straws with this one.
Try repeating that to someone with 35+ toons, ouch - hell no
Its NOT free if you are grinding for it, I can say the same for the mining mini game, whip those suckers fast on all my toons. Again you are poking at something insignificant compared to larger issues at play. Not everyone has 10+ toons or more, very few folks do.
How is this any different? Its worse, since you get additional rewards while doffing - also keep in mind, NOT every player doff or like to doff. AS far as the upcoming season 7 changes to doff acquisition it will make things even more painful for the playerbase. You in turn want them to force the doff system on everyone, the doff system is another silly grind minigame.
In the end the issue is the state of the game than a measly foundry file, why use a tactical nuke to kill a fly? There is no need for it. All this talk about welfare, minimum wage etc... is foolish talk and has no place here - BAD analogy need to be left out, this is NOT real life work.
I come to play STO and socialize, not Grind if it were a second job. If I wanted to work, I'll take up residence at my real life job place.
nuff said
MIM
I don't mind about "grinds", as long as it's not ultra repetitive, cheap and stupid content such as the season 6 space missions and the S7 Azure nebula. Nukara is for me the bare minimum in terms of content quality. It's fine but something looking cheaper and with less 'story' shouldn't be in such a game.
I'm not opposed to change, really, but when it's for the worse, it's not acceptable. Charging for every small feature isn't something acceptable to me and as soon as I have the feeling that I log in a giant shop I'll stop playing this game. It has to remain a game, I don't want to play Wallmart online.
I'm ok to give money as long as I feel it's not mandatory at all. I'm here to play a game and not a supermaket!
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
As I mentioned on page 6, I'll be passing this thread along to the dev team, so feel free to leave constructive feedback. Flaming, trolling, harassing material or anything else breaking the forum's rules will not be tolerated, so please watch your posts or you will receive warnings or infractions from the Mod team and myself. This is your friendly reminder
I have gotten some more information for you that I wanted to share:
Season 7 points from the OP
While they are being replaced, the new "currency" (I personally wouldn't call Marks a currency) will also be available from gameplay outside of STFs. This allows you to play different content and still earn rewards, including if you don't have a team available for a STF or don't wish to use the public queues. This also means that rewards cost significantly less in time.
Incorrect. There will be a way to earn dilithium from Elite STFs.
While they are being replaced, the new "currency" (again, I personally wouldn't call Marks a currency) will also be available from a wide variety of gameplay. Currently, Reman Datalogs are only available from the Vault Shuttle Event, and only during the special hourly event. Players should be able to earn their Reman set a lot easier with this change, or use those same Marks for a variety of other rewards. This change allows the player to choose what rewards they want to work on, using the same Marks.
As an avid STFer myself, from what I've seen, I think everyone will be taken care of. Watch for a dev blog on the conversion next week (or the week after at the latest).
Please see Bort's post yesterday here. The extra piece is being used in the new Borg alt set.
Yes, this is part of the reputation system, but the items cost significantly less in time than how they are currently obtained. I have only one complete XII ground set, among all my characters who run STFs, and looking at this new system, I couldn't be more excited. Watch for Tribble patch notes for when this goes to testing, and make sure to leave your feedback in the official feedback thread that gets created. As a player, I'm very happy with what I've seen.
Again, this is false. You can earn Dilithium from STFs if you play on Elite (among other rewards).
As noted, the Dilithium prices have been increased, yes. Please leave your feedback on this in this thread or the Tribble forums.
Again, constructive feedback is welcome and the devs are watching this thread
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Sad but true.
Yup. You're not the only one. Cryptic, don't try to cover up a lack of content by trying to slow down our access to current content with mindless grinding and a plethora of currencies. Get persistent elements into the game, more FE's, and more mini-games. Consolidate the currencies into just a few, three at the most. Everything requiring large amounts of dilithium is turning this game into an all-out grindfest. Also, please stop fooling us with the 400 c-points stipend when every action you're taking makes those 400 points less valuable.
The game feels just plain stale at this point. There aren't any new customization options added, no new missions, no territory control. I literally played for 30 minutes the other day before quitting because I was so bored.
Thanks for updating, but "as noted" only applies to us noting it and mentioning it. Why are changes like this (and I harken back to the fleet-doffs-not-usable-in-fleet-projects debacle) not communicated in patch notes? It makes the angry pitch fork crowd even angrier if we discover these things as stealth changes instead of being informed of the changes.
So you will no longer earn Dilithium from "normal" STF's? Will the mount of Dilithium currently earned from completing an Elite STF be reduced?
Also, what is the reason for this increase in pricing, nobody in the player base wants it.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Like a 25 dollar ship......yikes.
This game is now a money pit.
They should change the name to Money Pit Online
Doff dilithium price will kill it flat.
If the masters that be think people will use ingame earned dilithium or use real money to get doffs for starbase they are mistaken.
I urge the makers to reconsider this move,it is a bad one imho.
AGREED. I have been in this game since the start. But i play less and less. And from what I am seeing, i dont think I will be playing after Season 7. There are too many other games out there where the DEVs are trying to make their games fun. I get the feeling that PWE is not looking to make this game fun any more and that they don't want me as a loyal customer. I feel they just want as much money from as they can get before they move on to Neverwinter.
what would you call it?
Wow and I thought the Elite STF Pug Q's were full of bad players NOW!!
Look - the dev silence is deafening; there's a reason ALL of the currency changes haven't been put on Tribble, which is baffling considering it's ostensibly a "test" server. All I can imagine is that they know people will be torqued when they find their EDCs and such have been turned into "Whatever Marks" with less utility and less value overall.
Oh - and leave the BORG set alone, and buff the Aegis set ffs.
I noticed this, too - I'll bet you dimes-to-dollars that the rewards fro normal STFs are now the rewards for Elite.
This whole season 7 thing is jsut depressing.
The OP tends to confuse 'grind' with 'reason to do something'. There's no easy way around it, you have to give people a reason to log in every day and do content, or they're only going to log in once every 3 months, play a few mission, and leave. That's not a sustainable future. That's both a grind and designing a game worth playing at the same time, and it's a walking on a knife edge to find the balance between something players will want to do every day and something players feel they need to do every day, but are sick of.
Now a lot could be added to the 'grind' to make it more enjoyable, basically randomness, different types of enemies, different situations I might need to react to so it requires I'm actually paying attention. The 'no win scenario' is kind of the right idea but there are better alternatives.
The first, and most basic issue for STO is more players, versus more money per player, and then the secondary question is: more characters doing less stuff each, or less characters doing more stuff each.
Right now you're neck deep in the 'more money per player' camp. Which strongly alienates anyone who doesn't have a pile of money and isn't already invested in the game. One of my friends tried the game for the first time a couple of months ago, and his feedback was basically "I need to pay for everything, but I don't know what anything is actually worth paying for", and then naturally, he quit. And that pretty much sums up everything wrong with the Zstore and lockboxes. Player should be free to choose which of their characters to play at any given time, and the game shouldn't force them to pick a favourite early by buying stuff that's only redeemable on one character/faction. Maybe this week I want to play my KDF sci/Kar'fi, but normally I like my fed tac/escort best. But if I buy a regent assault cruiser for my fed guys to try out I've just spent 25 bucks, and maybe I discovered I'd rather have a big tactical heavy cruiser on my KDF toon. Well that's another 25 bucks, or just ... don't. Looking at that decision, I wouldn't even try and make it. Too much risk that I'd waste 25 bucks. I can't even try out 25 dollar ships anywhere to see if I'd like them (or worse, 25 dollar consoles, which is what a lot of the ships are). Everything reasonably possible in the Z-Store and Lobi should be a per account unlock, not a per character unlock, and everything on the zstore and lobi vendor should be free on tribble or redshirt (or both) periodically, but well, you can frequently delete those characters too.
On the general problem of grindy dilithium. Dilithium is exchangeable in real time between your characters at a what, 0.6% loss rate. So it's basically a per account thing anyway, just make it a per account thing. Every character should start with a refining limit of say 3000/day, and every 10 levels gains another 1000 per day limit. (KDF should probably start at 3000 still, but gain 1k at 30, 2k at 40, and 2k at 50) - but that should contribute to your account wide refining limit. This would let me pick which character I want to grind stuff on at least, and eliminate some of the headaches of jumping between characters. It also means you could scale dilithium rewards to the level of the character doing stuff so it's no longer advantageous to be doing an investigate officer reports daily at level 25 on 7 different characters.
On other progression currencies: I understand what you were trying to do with the borg stuff. But seriously, there are what 21 different items that become currencies. Who thought this up? How can they call themselves a star trek fan even, star trek explicitly notes they have tried to do away with money (which is a core failure of the world, but at least one should minimize the various monies) - and you're introducing 21 items that are all basically a form of barter exchange. Either way, you're done away with most of that now, so we can move on somewhat. All borg STF stuff should be for dilithium with S7 (except maybe loot from any new stfs), all existing borg stuff converted into dilithium and just let people move on. Every time you add a new 'tier' or layer of stuff that's better than old stuff just push all the old stuff into dilithium. I can buy fleet items, one 'new' tier item and dilithium. And keep yourselves to that. I know that's not what you're doing. But you should do that. Failing that, I see omega marks, fine, let omega marks convert to dilithium and everything from STF's can be omega marks, but still, you're making this more complicated than it needs to be. Alienating new players and all that.
On that thought, why is GPL still a currency? I understand you may have some RP attachment to it, but it's never going to work now that you've got it in game and some of us have 700k gpl from god knows what, and other people have to gamble at some EC -> GPL rate that is just a waste of time, get rid of it. Or pretend all EC are GPL or whatever, but having GPL and EC is a stupid idea. Sorry. It is. And it's too late now to fix it. Maybe make a separate GPL economy and let me buy a D'kora with it, but that's just a huge amount of work on your end for a bad idea that will favour anyone who had prototype consoles and knew to sell them, or waste player time on the non fun activity of actually grinding out GPL in exchange for EC.
The basic criticism, that costs for zen stuff is too high (given the risk that it will become basically a 25 dollar console) - that's true. It's a lot of money on an uninformed choice (since I can't try the ships or consoles first). And the lockboxes and master keys thing is just gambling, and dubiously legal gambling at that (given that you are selling this service to people not in California or China you have to be careful that you are likely in breach of gambling rules in various provinces and states).
STO lets you create all these really interesting looking characters, that you can RP in very interesting ways. And then says 'oh but stick to one faction unless you're rich', because unlocks are per faction if they're per account at all. It's becoming 'pay to win' and that's a path to a death spiral, those aren't your customers, and it is antithetical to Star Trek as a franchise and as an ideal. Well maybe the only customers you have left are happy to pay, but that's not a great market to be in. The entire business model is premised on extracting more and more from addicts who can afford it. What could possibly go wrong?
Seriously - the lockboxes and the zen store full of things that I might, but might not want is very much opposed to the ideals that star trek embodies, about fairness and egalitarianism, that the solution to problems and opportunities come from people making honest choices, which means your business model is opposed to your target customer base. To quote your great competition 'you should go home and rethink your life'.
Other thoughts: You should more generously rewards certain people. The lifetime sub stipend at 500 makes sense, since it's for the life of the game, but 'gold' members who pay 15 bucks a month should get 1500 zen *and* the benefits of being gold members. Anyone who spends >1500 zen in a month (or redeems a card) should get gold benefits for the month etc. If you want to sell character slots, bank slots, account bank slots, (I'm not sure why anyone would want ship slots, but ok, ship slots), convenience stuff, novelty stuff (rather than ships you should be selling reskins for ship classes, armour overlays etc.) that's fine. But if you sell me a 25 dollar (or 50 dollar!) ship it should unlock something equivalent on *both* factions etc.
Admittedly, I'm putting myself squarely in the camp of saying you want more customers, not more money per customer. But that's because your current business plan hasn't worked for anyone else outside of china, it risks putting you on the wrong side of the law, it's going to risk your license from CBS and it's creating an adversarial relationship with your customers, it's not an opportunity when you put something new up for sale, it's diluting the experience of the existing game for players who don't have 25 dollars for a new console for their ship, and it's inconsistent with your broad customer base. So you need to fix that. Unfortunately you need to fix a lot of your in game technology stuff too, because things like gravity wells that don't show up in the right place just looks sloppy, and you really need to clean up the gear sets for ships and players so they have more incremental improvements than just 2 pieces of armour and 2 guns.
TLDR: Stop using the rules of acquisition as your game design document.
My interpretation of this is that we'll continue to get dilithium for completing an STF (is this for both normal and elite, or just the latter?). That's not what the poster was saying though -- it was being able to trade in salvage, tech, or EDC for dilithium. Since these won't exist as of Season 7, will Omega Marks be convertible to dilithium?
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
Thanks for your update. I'm glad to see it's being taken seriously. I have two comments for you though.
1) Marks are a currency
Marks, emblems, etc. were once part of the original dilithium merge almost a year ago. They were branded as such by the development team. While you could argue that STF and fleet marks aren't currency by definition, they play the same role. If marks aren't considered currency, neither should Lobi or GPL but they are both commonly considered as such.
2) Dilithium will kill DOffing
Consider what you are doing here. I can tell you personally that I won't be bothering with duty officers anymore once this change takes effect. At a minimum, reinstate the dismissal dilthium reward to compensate for this. This proposed change will marginalize one of the best features in the game.
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
My character Tsin'xing
I think what we're suffering from in part, Brandon, is lack of information and surprise information that never was mentioned in Tribble notes.
When major changes happen, we need to have as much information as possible in order to judge whether we're better off or not. EDIT: So I am appreciative you and Borticus (the most prominent in these discussions) are providing more details on major changes instead of waiting.
From what we have, though, it seems we're not. It seems STO will turn into a job rather than a game.
That's a sure way to keep people away, and thus hurts Cryptic/PWE's wallet in the long-run.
Remember your goal: to keep Star Trek lovers as your long-term players. Increased grinding won't do it, and taking away avenues of taking care of multiple grinds in the same mission (Omega Marks + Dilithium not possible on Normal STFs, for example) will only make matters worse.