Okay, granting that your scenario is not totally implausible...
It's poor form I]not an insult[/I to begin a rebuttal with dismissing your opponent's argument out of hand by way of ridicule. If the scenario were "totally implausible" then there would be no need to dismiss it.
First, no MMO ever guarantees the continued service of the game, nor do they ever guarantee uptime or access to the game. I haven't compared the new TOS to the old one, nor will I, but I suspect this is more about legal coverage than conspiracy.
There's that word again. Conspiracy. How is the word "conspiracy" applicable to what we're discussing? We're talking about what looks to be a simple, if cynical, business decision.
Second, a deliberate move such as the one you are hypothesizing would utterly destroy any and all credibility in the company throughout the entire gaming industry. It would not only destroy the studio's credibility -- while they're gearing up to launch a new title -- but it would affect the parent corporation as well. It would be a very bad business decision.
Not quite. CBS suing PWE would damage both parties' credibility (no one wants to be remembered as having a history of suing former business partners, and there is no way CBS would win in a Chinese court).
PWE has little cred as it stands, and like many contemporary firms, it doesn't care. "You cannot tarnish a rusted blade..."
PWE pulled the plug on HOTK, LOMA and CoH after changing the lifetime service deal in those games, so such a move is in fact consistent with their history.
Buying an LTS was always a risky proposition. You're betting that the lights will stay on long enough to justify your investment. What exactly has changed in that regard?
Lifetime subs and vet programs, of course. And the ToU.
That is the "change" we are discussing, no? Strange to come into a thread about a particular change then ask "what has changed" when that is what the thread is all about
Hey Lifetime means Lifetime! If you guys shut down STO, I demand you build me a Real Life Mobious Destroyer To fly around to work and back! I mean it! Oh, and the tank better be topped off!
You're trying to conflate serious and well-warranted doubts about PWE's intentions and hesitation to give them money right now with being unreasonable and demanding, and in doing so make an unreasonable position (to swallow all doubts and give PWE cash now for no certain gain) appear reasonable by way of contrast.
I would like to Say thanks Cryptic! I know alot of people are NOT please with the new Lifetime Perk, But I for one Am. I have been Hollaring in multiple Places that LIFETIMERS should have access to All Veteran Rewards from day 0. The Simple reason being: We PAID our Dues. We have no Ongoing subscription to keep up. No matter what, if we go away from the game for 2 years or a year.. (like many Lifers I know did) You still are a subscriber.. I Know many 900 Day Veterans who might of played the game for 45 days but had bought the lifetime. THEY still get all the rewards when they come back. Heck there are still lifers coming back that are brand new to doing STF's. Offering something to the Lifetime Community that they are going to hit regardless is a Intelligent Business Move. It shines down on the Lifetime Perk Very nicely and gives a new and awesome reason For others to subscribe for it. GOLD MEMBERS (monthly subscribers) are not getting this Perk, Only Lifers Are, So they still have to earn the Veteran Rewards for Sticking with the game, the main perk of the Vet Rewards. But Lifers Already Paid that due with the nice chunk of change upfront. I paid 299 for mine, and play with this Sale to put my Alt account to lifetime, As well as my Wifes Account to lifetime. I was planning to do this anyway, But this now gives me more of a reason to.
You paid your dues? Puhleeze.
1000 day vets like myself would disagree. When there was nothing new added to the game for a year because Atari wouldn't spend money on it. We stuck with it.
When the game was critically bashed all over the place, we stuck with.
We are the ones who have PAID our dues. Time is far more valuable than money. Anyone could drop 200 bucks on a game and be done with it. To spend the time to gain 1000 days is worth more than any price tag you can put on it.
Frankly, it's a slap in the face to those who have been loyal. We stuck with the game when it was barely alive, when the dev team was three guys who had to work weekends just to try and fix bugs.
Those of use who have been here for 1000 days should be more valuable to Cryptic than someone willing to put out 200 bucks. I knew Cryptic wanted money, but I always thought that a strong community was the most important to them. They have always tried in the past to respond and talk to the community...but now I see it's all just about money.
This is the last straw for me. It's not like the vet rewards are game breaking, or even the greatest in the world. But it's the thought behind it. It's like Christmas. It's not what they give you, but the fact they appreciate your loyalty. To be with a game 1000 days says you support it, and that should mean something.
Now, just spend a little cash and you can buy that loyalty. Heh. Never thought I'd see the day Cryptic. Never did.
I won't pay another dime to the game. Period. My monthly sub is getting canceled. I paid far more to reach my 1000 days than some 200 dollar chump did or will. Glad to see where loyalty stands with you, thanks for letting me know so I can go and give my time and money to someone else who will actually appreciate it.
All I have to say is.. Can I Haz Yur Stuffz Regardless of your oppinion ALOT more are happy with it, Even the ones who have been around since Day 1. Also, That Veteran Ability is Given whether you Logged in for 1000 days Straight, OR bought your Lifetime and came back 999 days later to see what was going on in the game. So why not and go complain That there is no LOG in bonus like Alot of Android and Apple or Facebook Games give. I logged in for 1000 days Straight I get ubber (not really ubber at all) ship. No it's I paid for the sub BETA and can still come back 999 days later and log in 1 time and get all the Rewards. How many LTS Quit when STO crawled down to a halt and came back at season 5 or even season 6? They STILL get the reward also.. So its not so much a Veteran Reward is it? It's more of I paid period. IF you are a Gold Member and have been paying since Day 1 you have Paid MORE then a LTS member has and NOT gotten the same rewards for it. For say 30 months.. Since we are approaching the 3 year mark of the game.. you would have paid 575.64 for the game.. I paid 299.. Others at launch during the launch sale paid 199.. Still a Veteran.. So why not complain that GOLD members who paid more.. Get the better Perks.. then Lifetime.. Just Saying.. but then again, If you are still just a regular gold sub and never subbed to Lifetime.. It makes me wonder Why not get all the deals you could get by going lifetime? Do you like paying more for Less? I mean at least Lifetime Get the borg and they pay less then a Constant Gold sub..
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It's poor form I]not an insult[/I to begin a rebuttal with dismissing your opponent's argument out of hand by way of ridicule. If the scenario were "totally implausible" then there would be no need to dismiss it.
There's that word again. Conspiracy. How is the word "conspiracy" applicable to what we're discussing? We're talking about what looks to be a simple, if cynical, business decision.
Not quite. CBS suing PWE would damage both parties' credibility (no one wants to be remembered as having a history of suing former business partners, and there is no way CBS would win in a Chinese court).
PWE has little cred as it stands, and like many contemporary firms, it doesn't care. "You cannot tarnish a rusted blade..."
PWE pulled the plug on HOTK, LOMA and CoH after changing the lifetime service deal in those games, so such a move is in fact consistent with their history.
Lifetime subs and vet programs, of course. And the ToU.
That is the "change" we are discussing, no? Strange to come into a thread about a particular change then ask "what has changed" when that is what the thread is all about
Hey You spend money on Computers with Operating systems.. Ever Read the TOS and EULA of an OS.. They can Yank your license at Will.. yet people buy Windows, Apple, and install Linux all the time. But ALOT of the licensing requirements Say at any time they can Yank your usage rights.. Guess that is risky also so you won't use an operating system
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Hey You spend money on Computers with Operating systems.. Ever Read the TOS and EULA of an OS.. They can Yank your license at Will.. yet people buy Windows, Apple, and install Linux all the time. But ALOT of the licensing requirements Say at any time they can Yank your usage rights.. Guess that is risky also so you won't use an operating system
In principle perhaps, but in practice, they don't. PWE does.
Fwiw, Microsoft is extremely loyal to those who have done it service in the past. I have friends who are on the Seattle dev team. It's like a family to them.
Resorting to insults and excessive use of the word "I" is the hallmark of a weak position.
This is something PR workers do, they say, "I" this and "I" that and try to argue that because they have no problem with it, no-one should have a problem with it, and anyone who does, must be flawed in some way.
In reality, it's really very simple, it's a form of bullying, appeal to social pressure, to get people to stop thinking and give the company their money.
I am going to take issue with this as this is both condescending and insulting.
In effect you are saying that if we don't agree with you and choose to share our own personal views, which may or may not be shared by others, we should not bother posting because only the vocal majority's opinion is valid.
Specifically, because it is not YOUR opinion.
In essence, you are doing what you are accusing him of.
He has no problem, with this move by cryptic, neither do I, and neither do some if the others who have posted. There is a whole other thread filled with complaints about this. People can voice their opinions about this, and let cryptic know how they feel.
I am going to take issue with this as this is both condescending and insulting.
It's neither. Saying that what I said was offensive does not make it offensive, because it wasn't. Neither in word nor intent.
And if I am silenced as a result...what does that seem to indicate about my claims? If the claims are untrue then there's no problem, the facts speak for themselves. Why bother putting the lid on?
Why make a point of taking unjustified offense in a thread talking about the future of the game and PWE's questionable intentions?
All this offense seems to go back to what I had said: that the current fracas appears to be driven by PWE's intention to pull the plug in the intermediate future...just as they have with at least three other MMOs. I didn't insult anyone's epeen - that was others - I merely made an observation that seems to have ruffled some feathers.
In effect you are saying that if we don't agree with you and choose to share our own personal views, which may or may not be shared by others, we should not bother posting because only the vocal majority's opinion is valid.
Specifically, because it is not YOUR opinion.
It is, in fact, my opinion that he is relating - not his own opinion. Let us re-read the post again:
The only thing hurt by this move by Cryptic are the rather small e-peens of the wailing. :cool:
In the post I quoted, he's not relating HIS opinion. He's relating his caricature of SOMEONE ELSE'S opinion (that the many posters against this change are motivated by small epeen and not by any legitimate concern about game balance).
And he's insulting their masculinity/anatomy/personal character.
It's a strawman, a blatant insult, and I would say that's quite a bit more rude and offensive than anything I said.
The right to one's personal views has no bearing on one's lack of a right to misrepresent the views of others.
And why bother taking offense at what I said but not someone else calling others "wailing small epeens"? Seems a bit unfair, and doesn't seem to help anyone but PWE.
He has no problem, with this move by cryptic, neither do I, and neither do some if the others who have posted. There is a whole other thread filled with complaints about this. People can voice their opinions about this, and let cryptic know how they feel.
If you have no strong feelings about the issue then why post? What are you looking to accomplish?
You're trying to conflate serious and well-warranted doubts about PWE's intentions and hesitation to give them money right now with being unreasonable and demanding, and in doing so make an unreasonable position (to swallow all doubts and give PWE cash now for no certain gain) appear reasonable by way of contrast.
In all fairness, the thought had crossed my mind too. PWE suddenly having a fire-sale kind of sell out, it *did* make me wonder too, whether they're perhaps readying themselves for endgame, and are going for a last money-grabbing exit strategy.
Of course there's no proof of that. Doesn't make it a conspiracy theory, though: it's simply reasonable (and obvious even) to let your thoughts go in that direction for a moment. Especially since PWE has apparently done it before.
PWE has little cred as it stands, and like many contemporary firms, it doesn't care. "You cannot tarnish a rusted blade..."
PWE pulled the plug on HOTK, LOMA and CoH after changing the lifetime service deal in those games, so such a move is in fact consistent with their history.
Not familiar with the first two, but City of Heroes (if that's what you meant by CoH) was never a PWE game. It was originally a Cryptic property that transferred to NCSoft.
NCSoft has no affiliation with PWE that I'm aware of. They did pull the plug on CoH, which goes to illustrate my point that no MMO guarantees they will keep the game running 'for life'. In this case, Lifetime refers to the lifetime of the game itself.
PWE as a corporate entity might not care too much about their players. I don't know. But it would seem to be a really poor idea to do a bad-publicity cash grab while they're preparing to launch Neverwinter. Maybe they're that dumb, but I'll be shocked if they are.
If you're right, then a lot of people will be kicking themselves by this time next year.
If you're wrong, a lot of people will be kicking themselves for listening to you by this time next year.
Whether you're right or wrong doesn't change the fact that an LTS is, and always was, a gamble -- like any other investment.
I'm not buying LTS either way, so I won't be kicking myself at all.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Love your sig picture, you should add it to your forum posts
Why, thanks. I wasn't going to, as sig images need to be so incredibly small, you lose every bit of detail in the process. As a result, I had to change the original around some.
Not familiar with the first two, but City of Heroes (if that's what you meant by CoH) was never a PWE game. It was originally a Cryptic property that transferred to NCSoft.
NCSoft has no affiliation with PWE that I'm aware of. They did pull the plug on CoH, which goes to illustrate my point that no MMO guarantees they will keep the game running 'for life'. In this case, Lifetime refers to the lifetime of the game itself.
Your understanding is incorrect.
CoH, and its engine, was owned by Cryptic, which is owned by PWE. PWE sold the game to NCSoft but retained ownership of its engine, which was licensed to NCSoft. When the license was up, PWE made unreasonable demands on renewal, shooting the game in the foot.
The lesson to be learned is that PWE, in fact, has no aversion to killing MMOs and backstabbing license partners. If they have done it before then surely they are capable of doing it again.
PWE as a corporate entity might not care too much about their players. I don't know. But it would seem to be a really poor idea to do a bad-publicity cash grab while they're preparing to launch Neverwinter. Maybe they're that dumb, but I'll be shocked if they are.
PWE could have made more money running STO as a going concern. Yet instead they've chosen to run it into the ground. Whether you want to call that dumb or simply myopic and greedy is a matter of semantics.
By the same token, whether you want to call PWE dumb, or simply disreputable, for its license hijinks, is simply a matter of semantics. A lot of companies have gotten by for decades by buying up assets then running them into the ground. Corporate raiders are rife in our economy.
The fact of the matter is though (and it is a fact), the likelyhood that the lifetime sub change is driven by the imminent collapse of their licensing with CBS cannot be dismissed for want of similar experience.
Whether you're right or wrong doesn't change the fact that an LTS is, and always was, a gamble -- like any other investment.
I'm not buying LTS either way, so I won't be kicking myself at all.
There's that one-letter word again. Hmm.
Anyway, there's a big difference between, say, a T-Bill and a junk bond. Both are investments (technically, lotto tickets are investments too, just ones with a very poor return).
Maybe that junk bond will actually appreciate and you'll cash in on massive interest because the odds drive up the firm's rate. But more likely, the junk bond will live up to the reputation that junk bonds have, for good reason.
Conversely, T-Bills, despite being an "investment", are so reliable they are considered equivalent to cash.
If the best defense that can be made for a lifetime sub is that anything can fail, well, that would seem to imply a lack of rational basis to dispel strong doubts about the lifetime sub. The "facts" are just that bad.
CoH, and its engine, was owned by Cryptic, which is owned by PWE. PWE sold the game to NCSoft but retained ownership of its engine, which was licensed to NCSoft. When the license was up, PWE made unreasonable demands on renewal, shooting the game in the foot.
The lesson to be learned is that PWE, in fact, has no aversion to killing MMOs and backstabbing license partners. If they have done it before then surely they are capable of doing it again.
No, you're totally wrong. NCSoft was sold their own perpetual license to the engine code as it stood the day Cryptic spun off Paragon. PWE had absolutely no ability to affect the licensing of that code. BranFlakes confirmed that the story about PWE licensing and NCSoft was utter hogwash. You should have a word with your sources; they're causing you to make strongly-worded statements of fact that are in grievous error.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
The Simple Fact in the end is an LTS is always a Risk, I have had many LTS games in the past. Yes they have Closed, It still did not stop me from buying another LTS. This Fire Sale Happened a Few months Ago, this fire sale Happened LAUNCH day also when they offered Beta players the sub for a reduced price. It has happened multiple times. This sale is NOT new to the company. Hell I had a Lifetime Sub for Mythos Games Hellgate London. It died without a Sale going on. Other Games and companies have offered it also Some are still around.
DC Universe Online - released on Jan. 11, 2011 Sony Online Entertainment Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures - released on Sept. 15, 2010 Sony Online Entertainment Mytheon - released on July 13, 2010 Petroglyph Games Inc. Star Trek Online released on Feb. 2, 2010 Cryptic Studios, Perpetual Entertainment Champions Online - released on Sept. 1, 2009 Cryptic Studios Free Realms - released on April 28, 2009 Sony Online Entertainment Hellgate: London - released on Oct. 31, 2007 Flagship Studios The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar - released on April 27, 2007 Turbine, Inc.
From what I could pull off of games that have Offered the LTS sub. It's All A risk. Alot of these have gone Free To Play because Microtransactions Bring in More money then a sub. But if you can get people to Subscribe to a Free To Play game.. While also getting them to Buy Microtransactions.. Your making money, on top of money. That is a smart business plan. Alot of the players who did not see the worth of getting LTS just because All they seen was the Liberated Borg.. and they had to wait for any of the perks they wanted are now going to scoop it up. Bringing in an Influx of Money into the game. Keeping it Alive. Studios Do not hire people or advertise they are hiring if they do not plan to do something. They would do things like CoH, Tabula Rasa, Hellgate, Matrix Online, and many others have.
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Can you offer any proof of those claims, Syberghost, other than someone who has a vested interest in protecting PWE interests saying so?
Can you cite the terms of the contract, or specify which positions have been filled?
How do you, personally, know that my sources are in error?
Can you provide proof that those who claimed PWE shot the game in the foot were motivated by other factors and not telling the truth?
I mean, short of that, here is what it looks like:
PWE spokesperson saying PWE didn't do wrong
vs.
participants who claim otherwise and appear to have no selfish ends to serve by doing so
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, do we really need to speculate about the bird's liver function, or anything else we can't see, to make a reasonable judgement?
CoH, and its engine, was owned by Cryptic, which is owned by PWE. PWE sold the game to NCSoft but retained ownership of its engine, which was licensed to NCSoft. When the license was up, PWE made unreasonable demands on renewal, shooting the game in the foot.
Citation Needed.
NCSoft closed down Paragon Studios, and made no statement about why. Do shed some light on it beyond hearsay.
Anybody -- such as myself -- who has played both CoH and STO and been very active on the forums since well before F2P launched is well aware that Cryptic was owned by Atari before it was owned by PWE. That is a matter of public record and cannot be debated.
I am also well aware that Cryptic originally developed CoH and that CoH transitioned over to Paragon Studios which was created by NCSoft to continue developing CoH in-house. This all happened well before PWE bought Cryptic.
Unless somebody can show me a credible source that says PWE had controlling interest in NCSoft, or that they had any legal basis to contest NCSoft's license to run CoH, at the time NCSoft announced that CoH would be shut down, the facts plainly show that PWE had nothing to do with it.
These are the facts. No amount of intellectual gymnastics, misdirection, or context-twisting will convince me otherwise.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
All of this debate over some very interesting topics - can anyone in the thread claim this isn't educational? I have to admit I didn't know half as much about these issues or take nearly so much interest in them before we started talking about them, that's the point of discussion for you! - started because of questions about the future of STO.
Anyway, I think this horse has been beaten to death. Neither side can really prove anything "beyond a reasonable doubt".
PWE employees and contractors can only point to a spokesperson on their payroll, claiming the company did no wrong.
STO fans suspicious of PWE's intentions can only point to anonymous claims by former employees and pundits, and patterns of suspicious and dishonest behavior on PWE's part resulting in the exploitation followed by shutdown of multiple MMOs under their management.
Regardless, I think that the existence of such a discussion - that PWE can only plead its own case, as we see here, with much gusto - speaks for itself. So let's leave it at that.
You want a COMMUNITY (NOT PAID FOR OR BY THE COMPANY) Moderator to provide all sorts of links and Sources, But when one asks you to show yours ALSO. You Balk right into a conspiracy theory. I have NEVER known a Game Developer to keep there mouth shut when a developer pisses them off, Just look at SoE Devs, Zynga Devs, Cryptics past Devs, PWE's Past Devs, NCSofts Devs from tablua Rasa, Previous Blizzard Dev's Or Even Crytek and IDsoftware Devs. Have NEVER been quiet about issues. So magically you have Inside sources From NCsoft about a game Publicly Sold and licensing Sold to NCsoft, But you are saying PWE Interfered without being able to name a Source.. Everything you have posted has been an attempt towards information war and a debate about nothing you have proof for. You have been attempted to use information and Misinformation and when confronted you use Deflection to try to change the course on you. Either you HAVE something or You DON'T. As we say From New York.. Put up.. or shut up.. to be blunt. Obviously you are upset about the game and it's State. I recommend you take a Break from STO.
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They're claims, not facts...the "lifetime license" is an improbable claim that has yet to be substantiated from the original agreement, which is curiously still confidential despite being defunct.
Now who is being deliberately evasive? :rolleyes:
Fact #1: Cryptic developed CoH under NCSoft.
Fact #2: CoH transitioned from active development by Cryptic to an in-house studio under NCSoft. Some agreement was obviously in place between Cryptic and NCSoft.
Fact #3: Atari purchased Cryptic. Atari later sold Cryptic to PWE.
These are the facts I am referring to. You claimed that PWE sold CoH to NCSoft. This particular statement of yours was wrong. Am I claiming that you lied? No. I have no evidence about anything except that you are mistaken.
As to the "claim" that Cryptic lied about the "lifetime license" to the game engine that was used for City of Heroes, and that PWE forced NCSoft to shut down CoH, we're simply asking for a good reason to believe it.
I'm not saying they did or didn't. I'm saying you aren't in any position to know that they did.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Why wouldn't a business agreement between two companies be confidential? Or anything else having to do with the operation of a corporation?
They aren't obligated to make any information public except that which they're legally required to, and most businesses are not in the habit of putting their business dealings on open display for public consumption.
The price NCSoft paid to take development of CoH in house, and the money Cryptic got from them, wouldn't be public record unless one or both companies was on a public stock exchange. In that case, the shareholders would have access to that information. Beyond that, probably nobody but the lawyers and executives know for sure.
You're trying to make out like this "confidential agreement" is some big nasty secret. But the fact is, the agreement would very likely be confidential no matter whether there was or wasn't a big nasty secret. They're not obligated to share that information, whether you like it or not.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Bluegeek, I took pains to provide you a graceful way out of this increasingly useless debate. I summed it up fair and square and I don't understand why that wasn't enough.
Is it your preference the debate continue until you feel it's been left on a note favorable to PWE? How would you prefer it end? Honest question, no offense intended.
Or anything else having to do with the operation of a corporation?
Well, a lot of that "information having to do with the operation of a corporation" is public by law (balance sheets, statements of cash flow, etc). Over the objection of corporations as a class, mind you. Why? Because when corporations are provided the opportunity to keep things secret, they lie and cheat, not because they are corporations but because they are human institutions, and human institutions naturally exploit secrecy towards their own selfish ends.
So the implication in asking the rhetorical question, "why wouldn't anything having to do with the operation of a corporation be confidential", that there isn't any good reason, is pretty specious.
Suffice it to say, this isn't the world of Star Trek. Not all problems have been solved yet. Corporations still keep a lot of bad stuff secret for really bad reasons, and are quite determined to keep it that way.
Why wouldn't a business agreement between two companies be confidential?
Corporations are public entities. They are responsible to their stockholders and their customers. Stockholders and customers cannot very well make informed decisions or trust the company without good, solid information.
At this juncture we have a good example of that. Customers are being asked for $200 up front, with the explicit disclaimer that $200 doesn't buy us anything firm. And we're not getting all the facts we'd like to know.
You're talking as if PWE is like the CIA, a bunch of creeps obsessed with secrecy for the purpose of covering up their evil deeds. If a secret is kept there must be a reason why.
As Scott Adams said, "There's a reason corporations lie. The truth is worse."
There's no obligation for someone to not be a jerk, either.
Arguing that something is a good idea merely because the alternative is not mandatory is a weak argument. It implies the decision does not bear justification for any good reason.
Comments
It's poor form I]not an insult[/I to begin a rebuttal with dismissing your opponent's argument out of hand by way of ridicule. If the scenario were "totally implausible" then there would be no need to dismiss it.
There's that word again. Conspiracy. How is the word "conspiracy" applicable to what we're discussing? We're talking about what looks to be a simple, if cynical, business decision.
Not quite. CBS suing PWE would damage both parties' credibility (no one wants to be remembered as having a history of suing former business partners, and there is no way CBS would win in a Chinese court).
PWE has little cred as it stands, and like many contemporary firms, it doesn't care.
"You cannot tarnish a rusted blade..."
PWE pulled the plug on HOTK, LOMA and CoH after changing the lifetime service deal in those games, so such a move is in fact consistent with their history.
Lifetime subs and vet programs, of course. And the ToU.
That is the "change" we are discussing, no? Strange to come into a thread about a particular change then ask "what has changed" when that is what the thread is all about
You're trying to conflate serious and well-warranted doubts about PWE's intentions and hesitation to give them money right now with being unreasonable and demanding, and in doing so make an unreasonable position (to swallow all doubts and give PWE cash now for no certain gain) appear reasonable by way of contrast.
You paid your dues? Puhleeze.
1000 day vets like myself would disagree. When there was nothing new added to the game for a year because Atari wouldn't spend money on it. We stuck with it.
When the game was critically bashed all over the place, we stuck with.
We are the ones who have PAID our dues. Time is far more valuable than money. Anyone could drop 200 bucks on a game and be done with it. To spend the time to gain 1000 days is worth more than any price tag you can put on it.
Frankly, it's a slap in the face to those who have been loyal. We stuck with the game when it was barely alive, when the dev team was three guys who had to work weekends just to try and fix bugs.
Those of use who have been here for 1000 days should be more valuable to Cryptic than someone willing to put out 200 bucks. I knew Cryptic wanted money, but I always thought that a strong community was the most important to them. They have always tried in the past to respond and talk to the community...but now I see it's all just about money.
This is the last straw for me. It's not like the vet rewards are game breaking, or even the greatest in the world. But it's the thought behind it. It's like Christmas. It's not what they give you, but the fact they appreciate your loyalty. To be with a game 1000 days says you support it, and that should mean something.
Now, just spend a little cash and you can buy that loyalty. Heh. Never thought I'd see the day Cryptic. Never did.
I won't pay another dime to the game. Period. My monthly sub is getting canceled. I paid far more to reach my 1000 days than some 200 dollar chump did or will. Glad to see where loyalty stands with you, thanks for letting me know so I can go and give my time and money to someone else who will actually appreciate it.
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
[SIGPIC]http://massivechaos.enjin.com/[/SIGPIC]
Hey You spend money on Computers with Operating systems.. Ever Read the TOS and EULA of an OS.. They can Yank your license at Will.. yet people buy Windows, Apple, and install Linux all the time. But ALOT of the licensing requirements Say at any time they can Yank your usage rights.. Guess that is risky also so you won't use an operating system
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
[SIGPIC]http://massivechaos.enjin.com/[/SIGPIC]
Fwiw, Microsoft is extremely loyal to those who have done it service in the past. I have friends who are on the Seattle dev team. It's like a family to them.
I am going to take issue with this as this is both condescending and insulting.
In effect you are saying that if we don't agree with you and choose to share our own personal views, which may or may not be shared by others, we should not bother posting because only the vocal majority's opinion is valid.
Specifically, because it is not YOUR opinion.
In essence, you are doing what you are accusing him of.
He has no problem, with this move by cryptic, neither do I, and neither do some if the others who have posted. There is a whole other thread filled with complaints about this. People can voice their opinions about this, and let cryptic know how they feel.
___
It's neither. Saying that what I said was offensive does not make it offensive, because it wasn't. Neither in word nor intent.
And if I am silenced as a result...what does that seem to indicate about my claims? If the claims are untrue then there's no problem, the facts speak for themselves. Why bother putting the lid on?
Why make a point of taking unjustified offense in a thread talking about the future of the game and PWE's questionable intentions?
All this offense seems to go back to what I had said: that the current fracas appears to be driven by PWE's intention to pull the plug in the intermediate future...just as they have with at least three other MMOs. I didn't insult anyone's epeen - that was others - I merely made an observation that seems to have ruffled some feathers.
It is, in fact, my opinion that he is relating - not his own opinion. Let us re-read the post again:
In the post I quoted, he's not relating HIS opinion. He's relating his caricature of SOMEONE ELSE'S opinion (that the many posters against this change are motivated by small epeen and not by any legitimate concern about game balance).
And he's insulting their masculinity/anatomy/personal character.
It's a strawman, a blatant insult, and I would say that's quite a bit more rude and offensive than anything I said.
The right to one's personal views has no bearing on one's lack of a right to misrepresent the views of others.
And why bother taking offense at what I said but not someone else calling others "wailing small epeens"? Seems a bit unfair, and doesn't seem to help anyone but PWE.
If you have no strong feelings about the issue then why post? What are you looking to accomplish?
In all fairness, the thought had crossed my mind too. PWE suddenly having a fire-sale kind of sell out, it *did* make me wonder too, whether they're perhaps readying themselves for endgame, and are going for a last money-grabbing exit strategy.
Of course there's no proof of that. Doesn't make it a conspiracy theory, though: it's simply reasonable (and obvious even) to let your thoughts go in that direction for a moment. Especially since PWE has apparently done it before.
Not familiar with the first two, but City of Heroes (if that's what you meant by CoH) was never a PWE game. It was originally a Cryptic property that transferred to NCSoft.
NCSoft has no affiliation with PWE that I'm aware of. They did pull the plug on CoH, which goes to illustrate my point that no MMO guarantees they will keep the game running 'for life'. In this case, Lifetime refers to the lifetime of the game itself.
PWE as a corporate entity might not care too much about their players. I don't know. But it would seem to be a really poor idea to do a bad-publicity cash grab while they're preparing to launch Neverwinter. Maybe they're that dumb, but I'll be shocked if they are.
If you're right, then a lot of people will be kicking themselves by this time next year.
If you're wrong, a lot of people will be kicking themselves for listening to you by this time next year.
Whether you're right or wrong doesn't change the fact that an LTS is, and always was, a gamble -- like any other investment.
I'm not buying LTS either way, so I won't be kicking myself at all.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
CO noob and STO veteran.
Why, thanks.
N.B. Hope the forum shows it properly.
Your understanding is incorrect.
CoH, and its engine, was owned by Cryptic, which is owned by PWE. PWE sold the game to NCSoft but retained ownership of its engine, which was licensed to NCSoft. When the license was up, PWE made unreasonable demands on renewal, shooting the game in the foot.
The lesson to be learned is that PWE, in fact, has no aversion to killing MMOs and backstabbing license partners. If they have done it before then surely they are capable of doing it again.
PWE could have made more money running STO as a going concern. Yet instead they've chosen to run it into the ground. Whether you want to call that dumb or simply myopic and greedy is a matter of semantics.
By the same token, whether you want to call PWE dumb, or simply disreputable, for its license hijinks, is simply a matter of semantics. A lot of companies have gotten by for decades by buying up assets then running them into the ground. Corporate raiders are rife in our economy.
The fact of the matter is though (and it is a fact), the likelyhood that the lifetime sub change is driven by the imminent collapse of their licensing with CBS cannot be dismissed for want of similar experience.
There's that one-letter word again. Hmm.
Anyway, there's a big difference between, say, a T-Bill and a junk bond. Both are investments (technically, lotto tickets are investments too, just ones with a very poor return).
Maybe that junk bond will actually appreciate and you'll cash in on massive interest because the odds drive up the firm's rate. But more likely, the junk bond will live up to the reputation that junk bonds have, for good reason.
Conversely, T-Bills, despite being an "investment", are so reliable they are considered equivalent to cash.
If the best defense that can be made for a lifetime sub is that anything can fail, well, that would seem to imply a lack of rational basis to dispel strong doubts about the lifetime sub. The "facts" are just that bad.
That was months ago - this change is recent, and reeks of a panic move.
No, you're totally wrong. NCSoft was sold their own perpetual license to the engine code as it stood the day Cryptic spun off Paragon. PWE had absolutely no ability to affect the licensing of that code. BranFlakes confirmed that the story about PWE licensing and NCSoft was utter hogwash. You should have a word with your sources; they're causing you to make strongly-worded statements of fact that are in grievous error.
The continued hiring of more people wasn't "months ago", it was last week. And continues this week.
DC Universe Online - released on Jan. 11, 2011 Sony Online Entertainment
Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures - released on Sept. 15, 2010 Sony Online Entertainment
Mytheon - released on July 13, 2010 Petroglyph Games Inc.
Star Trek Online released on Feb. 2, 2010 Cryptic Studios, Perpetual Entertainment
Champions Online - released on Sept. 1, 2009 Cryptic Studios
Free Realms - released on April 28, 2009 Sony Online Entertainment
Hellgate: London - released on Oct. 31, 2007 Flagship Studios
The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar - released on April 27, 2007 Turbine, Inc.
From what I could pull off of games that have Offered the LTS sub. It's All A risk. Alot of these have gone Free To Play because Microtransactions Bring in More money then a sub. But if you can get people to Subscribe to a Free To Play game.. While also getting them to Buy Microtransactions.. Your making money, on top of money. That is a smart business plan. Alot of the players who did not see the worth of getting LTS just because All they seen was the Liberated Borg.. and they had to wait for any of the perks they wanted are now going to scoop it up. Bringing in an Influx of Money into the game. Keeping it Alive. Studios Do not hire people or advertise they are hiring if they do not plan to do something. They would do things like CoH, Tabula Rasa, Hellgate, Matrix Online, and many others have.
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
[SIGPIC]http://massivechaos.enjin.com/[/SIGPIC]
Can you cite the terms of the contract, or specify which positions have been filled?
How do you, personally, know that my sources are in error?
Can you provide proof that those who claimed PWE shot the game in the foot were motivated by other factors and not telling the truth?
I mean, short of that, here is what it looks like:
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, do we really need to speculate about the bird's liver function, or anything else we can't see, to make a reasonable judgement?
No offense intended - am I missing something?
I named one of my sources; name yours. Allow us to examine the evidence and determine for ourselves whether it holds up.
You're the one making the extraordinary claim.
NCSoft closed down Paragon Studios, and made no statement about why. Do shed some light on it beyond hearsay.
I am also well aware that Cryptic originally developed CoH and that CoH transitioned over to Paragon Studios which was created by NCSoft to continue developing CoH in-house. This all happened well before PWE bought Cryptic.
Unless somebody can show me a credible source that says PWE had controlling interest in NCSoft, or that they had any legal basis to contest NCSoft's license to run CoH, at the time NCSoft announced that CoH would be shut down, the facts plainly show that PWE had nothing to do with it.
These are the facts. No amount of intellectual gymnastics, misdirection, or context-twisting will convince me otherwise.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Anyway, I think this horse has been beaten to death. Neither side can really prove anything "beyond a reasonable doubt".
PWE employees and contractors can only point to a spokesperson on their payroll, claiming the company did no wrong.
STO fans suspicious of PWE's intentions can only point to anonymous claims by former employees and pundits, and patterns of suspicious and dishonest behavior on PWE's part resulting in the exploitation followed by shutdown of multiple MMOs under their management.
Regardless, I think that the existence of such a discussion - that PWE can only plead its own case, as we see here, with much gusto - speaks for itself. So let's leave it at that.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
[SIGPIC]http://massivechaos.enjin.com/[/SIGPIC]
Now who is being deliberately evasive? :rolleyes:
Fact #1: Cryptic developed CoH under NCSoft.
Fact #2: CoH transitioned from active development by Cryptic to an in-house studio under NCSoft. Some agreement was obviously in place between Cryptic and NCSoft.
Fact #3: Atari purchased Cryptic. Atari later sold Cryptic to PWE.
These are the facts I am referring to. You claimed that PWE sold CoH to NCSoft. This particular statement of yours was wrong. Am I claiming that you lied? No. I have no evidence about anything except that you are mistaken.
As to the "claim" that Cryptic lied about the "lifetime license" to the game engine that was used for City of Heroes, and that PWE forced NCSoft to shut down CoH, we're simply asking for a good reason to believe it.
I'm not saying they did or didn't. I'm saying you aren't in any position to know that they did.
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Why wouldn't a business agreement between two companies be confidential? Or anything else having to do with the operation of a corporation?
They aren't obligated to make any information public except that which they're legally required to, and most businesses are not in the habit of putting their business dealings on open display for public consumption.
The price NCSoft paid to take development of CoH in house, and the money Cryptic got from them, wouldn't be public record unless one or both companies was on a public stock exchange. In that case, the shareholders would have access to that information. Beyond that, probably nobody but the lawyers and executives know for sure.
You're trying to make out like this "confidential agreement" is some big nasty secret. But the fact is, the agreement would very likely be confidential no matter whether there was or wasn't a big nasty secret. They're not obligated to share that information, whether you like it or not.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Do we see Jim Lehrer jump into the ring?
Is it your preference the debate continue until you feel it's been left on a note favorable to PWE? How would you prefer it end? Honest question, no offense intended.
Well, a lot of that "information having to do with the operation of a corporation" is public by law (balance sheets, statements of cash flow, etc). Over the objection of corporations as a class, mind you. Why? Because when corporations are provided the opportunity to keep things secret, they lie and cheat, not because they are corporations but because they are human institutions, and human institutions naturally exploit secrecy towards their own selfish ends.
So the implication in asking the rhetorical question, "why wouldn't anything having to do with the operation of a corporation be confidential", that there isn't any good reason, is pretty specious.
Suffice it to say, this isn't the world of Star Trek. Not all problems have been solved yet. Corporations still keep a lot of bad stuff secret for really bad reasons, and are quite determined to keep it that way.
Corporations are public entities. They are responsible to their stockholders and their customers. Stockholders and customers cannot very well make informed decisions or trust the company without good, solid information.
At this juncture we have a good example of that. Customers are being asked for $200 up front, with the explicit disclaimer that $200 doesn't buy us anything firm. And we're not getting all the facts we'd like to know.
You're talking as if PWE is like the CIA, a bunch of creeps obsessed with secrecy for the purpose of covering up their evil deeds. If a secret is kept there must be a reason why.
As Scott Adams said, "There's a reason corporations lie. The truth is worse."
There's no obligation for someone to not be a jerk, either.
Arguing that something is a good idea merely because the alternative is not mandatory is a weak argument. It implies the decision does not bear justification for any good reason.