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Phasers, Pistols, and the LOOK of the Game
leviathan99
Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
Anybody else think it would be more VISUALLY Trek if hand phasers were more competitive with rifles in PvE?
It's a little irk but we have the hand pistols but they're just not on par with rifles except as a stun/control mechanism, which makes them unsexy.
I'd rather all weapons be retuned to be good at killing and "Stun Mode" be a player toggle.
I'd like to see STFs with pistols and stun phasers leading the charge.
I realize there's a matter of logic there as to which is "more powerful" but it's an element of logic the IP itself wasn't all that concerned with.
I feel like the rifles were more a cosmetic thing for certain episodes, to lend a military feel, but we never saw people with pistols/cobras/etc. do any worse because of their weapons.
I wouldn't expect pistols to be as good at sniping but I'd rather, like I say, they be a good medium or close range DPS weapon.
And if people want to stun, like I say, toggle power used on any weapon that lowers DPS and adds a stun proc.
It's a little irk but we have the hand pistols but they're just not on par with rifles except as a stun/control mechanism, which makes them unsexy.
I'd rather all weapons be retuned to be good at killing and "Stun Mode" be a player toggle.
I'd like to see STFs with pistols and stun phasers leading the charge.
I realize there's a matter of logic there as to which is "more powerful" but it's an element of logic the IP itself wasn't all that concerned with.
I feel like the rifles were more a cosmetic thing for certain episodes, to lend a military feel, but we never saw people with pistols/cobras/etc. do any worse because of their weapons.
I wouldn't expect pistols to be as good at sniping but I'd rather, like I say, they be a good medium or close range DPS weapon.
And if people want to stun, like I say, toggle power used on any weapon that lowers DPS and adds a stun proc.
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Rear Admiral , Engineering Division
U.S.S. Sheffield N.C.C. 92016
Thing is, the way weapons are designed now, they'll be 10 to 15 DPS below rifles, have an inferior phaser proc, not part of a set, and be designed as stun weapons. And probably be blue quality.
And nobody will trade their rifles in for them, so you'll never see 25 people with hand phasers and 2 guys with rifles as long as they're designed that way.
Rear Admiral , Engineering Division
U.S.S. Sheffield N.C.C. 92016
Yeah. I get that. I mean, I'm shooting people, yes?
I just want to look like Kirk or Riker and not a space marine doing it.
I think another problem is that currently, there are no pistols that are part of a set. If there were pistols that worked as MACO and OMEGA set pieces, people would use them over rifles simply due to the visuals, even with the current penalties in place.
And not only are rifles ridiculously overrepresented, most of them look stupid too. :rolleyes:
I am oh-so-totally looking at you MACO rifle.....
I got all excited when I saw the Relativity weapons in the Temporal Lockbox Trailer because I figured 29th century weapons, to feel properly 29th century, would be effectively be rifles with a hand phaser skin. (Likewise, I always figured the Varon-T Disruptor would be a Disruptor Assault weapon with a pistol skin.)
Instead, we got that time freeze/stasis effect which, from basic testing of the pistol and number crunching, only has an edge in small group PvP, and is awful in PvE. As in, you'd be better off ignoring that the secondary attack exists because it slows you down. You're trading DPS for an effect that slows your progress down.
I got all hyped and watched Future's End (the one place we see the 29th century phaser fired) before the lockboxes were added and there was no funky temporal stasis effect there. Instead, we just saw a guy fire it backwards out of a moving semi cab and nearly hit a van directly behind him. Which said to me, "Rifle functionality!"
I love my TOS, phasers, the TNG cobras and the 29th century phasers for the look but I can't even bring myself to use them in Foundry missions. (Well, the TOS one sometimes. Mainly because the disintegration effect is cool.)
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
I think the Stun lasting longer would get annoying. I'd just be happy with more damage and/or a better effect.
Heck, like I say, I'd take stuns off them entirely and give them some kind of KILL proc. Then give players a toggle power called stun setting that cuts damage down by 25 or even 50% and replaces all energy procs with stun procs.
Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
So then make rifles take up both weapon slots. Or make characters move slower when using them. Or give characters using pistols a dodge bonus so they are less likely to get hit by attacks.
Pistols: These supposed to be high DPS weapons, but the only ones that are useful are the Compression Pistols.
Rifles: Always been a favorite due to their powerful shots, especially on an exposed target.
Assault Guns: Few people really use these.
Shotguns / Pulsewaves: Since their revamp, they are POWERFUL 1-shot weapons that are almost always in the second slot of an experienced player.
What I would like to see is:
Pistols merge and combine Compression, Wide, and Stun into one pistole. Because nobody uses Stun Phasers anymore, since the stun effect is only good for a second, and Wide Angle, well you got a shotgun. So having Weapon settings not only adds to the realism, but gives players a greater choice of abilities. (The Rarer the weapon, the greater functionality: Wide, Stun, Burst).
Those who worry about removing items in the game and merging weapon types, well in it's place you could have weapons with more functionality with less damage potential or a weapon with less functionality and greater damage.
Type-1 Phaser: Perhaps Cryptic bring them back as a standard weapon that you need for missions that need a concealed weapon. Lets say for Esiponage or "difficult" diplomacy missions? (And have non-concealed weapons be grayed-out to prevent a bypass of the system?).
Type-2 Phasers: Standard weapon of the Federation. Greater firepower, greater functionality (more settings).
Type-3 Phasers: Greater Firepower, longer firing weapon charge due to larger storage cells.
With Assult Guns and Miniguns, I like them to be heavier to carry (slow you down), but they also boost greater firing capability and something people would consider risking a heavy weapon for that extra firing capability.
Seriously... When making weapons, visuals it usual the last thing you think about. It has to be functional, balanced and most of all: Easy to use.
The STO weapons are visual... nothing more nothing less. Sure they work.
But holographic elements... Glowing holographic elements on a weapon... It would never happen.
But it's been an ongoing criticism of the game that the generic exploration missions are too dependent upon the kill mechanic to complete objectives.
I agree that the hand beam effects should be better diversified. IMO, this requires both mission and mission mechanics to be designed to need it. According to the TNG technical manual, personal phasers have stun effects causing disorientation through complete unconsciousness. As it stands for the stun effect in STO, it is merely the lower level disorientation effect that we witness. From which some NPC's recover more quickly than others.
STO needs the capacity for player's to complete some mission objectives by completely stunning down the NPC's into unconsciousness. I don't think it's fair to call this perspective TNG-only oriented. I see it having its place in 2409 (or 2536 for that matter) as well. It's a staple of Star Trek. Period.
Now I may be mistaken in my interpretation, but I thought that one distinguishing attribute was that the hand weapon may disintegrate a target, say a person or a crate, it can only do so one target at a time. It's the rifle that can do more heavy duty damage. Such as a wide-angle (multiple target) kill through disintegrate. And why wouldn't we have both options?
I think that diversifying the stun mechanic for hand weapons would benefit both Dev and Foundry created missions. And if player's want to take their improved stun mechanic into an STF, we go in knowing they may take longer to complete or completely fail. As with any game mission bring the right gear for the right job.
The problem is that the discussion is of balance within the tiers. That's not asking for "cosplay" that's asking for a functional game. Pistols are generally regarded as inferior and you basically acknowledge that as the case...
And you are just as guilty of wanting to "play dress up"...
While this isn't the television series those also aren't rifles and pistols... they're game assets. And when found within the same tiers they need to be seen as equally viable options which is currently not the case.
The only difference between you and him is that he wants pistols to be viable within the game because it's "more Trek" while you want rifles to be better within the game "because they're rifles". Problem being that while this isn't the television show, your argument against him is self-defeating since this isn't real life either... it's a game and unbalanced options doesn't work in a game.
You suggest that pistols are theoretically balanced outside of the game by factors which do not exist (like concealability, size and weight) and what I've done is extrapolate those into possible game mechanics which might balance the options.
Any which way they need to be balanced. You acknowledge that they aren't. You recognize the problem. You being okay with the problem doesn't fix it though or make it any less a problem for anyone but you...
Say... THERE'S an idea.
+Dodge and +Root Resist when using phasers. (Balancing shorter range and lower damage.)
-Movement speed +Knockback Resist when using Assault Weapons and Rifles.
And I still think Bat'leths/Lirpas should have Knockback/Knockdown Resist and maybe flat bonus HP whereas swords should have +Dodge and Adrenal Stimulator procs.
I want the characters/postures/tactics to resemble TNG/TOS/etc. Those elements were pretty consistent from Enterprise through the 29th century. I DON'T think rifles should be inferior but I DON'T want to feel inferior or handicapped into using one, which is exactly how I feel now.
The methods/attitudes/technology SHOULD feel very TNG.
What should be different are the politics and the statuses of individual people. I actually AM one of those people who wishes the Cardassians and Xindi would join the Federation, the Romulan Empire would end, and other things which dramatically alter the political and cultural landscape.
But I want the action to feel Trek, not Call of Duty. And that means people with small firearms in space pajamas.
I know I often ignore expose weapons, especially on my sci captain, because so many kit abilities can expose. But very few exploit.
I do like the idea of a dodge bonus for pistols. Heavy assault weapons already suffer from the slow-charge firing modes, and while I think rifles don't need a penalty like this, a benefit to lighter weapons would be cool.
Rifles already have a bunch of exploit options, as well as range and enhanced melee combos. Pistols could use a defensive buff to encourage their use in a run-and-gun expose fashion.
Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Why would you downgrade based on graphics? Try using Fleet Weapons, there aren't holographics.
That way you could have Engie's and Tac's with rifles doing damage, and Medics with pistols that are still doing damage, but aren't getting shot at.
Like they should. :cool:
Ooh! Pistols are daggers and rifles are swords, after a fashion. I can see that and it definitely has RPG logic. One possibility there is to make pistols more flanking oriented.
i can see how Pistols with limited range and shorter battery life probably would not be the best idea to fight enemies that have such technology.
On TV we mostly seen people shot that had none of the above...
and when they had the Hand Phasers out shooting at enemies with any kind of Shield it did either no damage at all, or they had to be set to kill to do any damage at all.
(the "Shroomies" from ENT, or the Hunters that were after Tosk for example.)
I'd say a Stun Phaser is more like a todays Tazer, and i don't see many soldiers run around with Tazers in Afghanistan or sum such... thats more of a local police force vs. civilians kind of thing...
but yes i wouldn't mind if in STO hand phasers would have a bit more viability in some way, the items are there but ALL my chars are running around with big phat Rifles.
Also i'd like to see the Machine Guns have a bit more of a spray and pray approach even in the default firing mode (way to precise shots) and more oomph, instead of having the Shotgun be the ultimate best at everything.
PS: the Elite Fleet Phaser rifles really look NICE
but i still want REPLICAS of the TNG Movie rifles.
and the default phaser rifles with or without the blue stuff are still hideous and ugly low res stuff.
Here's my thing:
Stun phasers are an invention of the game.
On TV, all weapons as far as we know had two settings: stun and kill. And we saw hand phasers used in battlefield situations. They aren't projectile weapons so a lot of the arguments about force are rooted in visual metaphor.
The rifles got used in First Contact and the Dominion War to make the extras look more like tired soldiers... But the hand phasers were used almost interchangeably.
I know in "real" Star Trek weapons would work different but STO is already so far away from "real" Trek it doesn't matter anymore IMO.
They should just enhance Pistols secondary effect so they are at least somehow useful.
I don't think the devs would be overstrained by doing something like that.
For me it just feels wrong to see ALL starfleet personal running around with guns as big as a child.
On the other hand this is Cryptics Star Trek game, they decided to find it cool for Starfleet
captains to carry miniguns and Phaser shotguns. :mad:
Thank you for reading.
This game is somewhat reminiscent of star trek.