Did you read the whole post? The only reason it gets those boosts is because the accursed thing costs $25. It's a pay to win system.
By that logic my Excelsior should be in a similar position, I paid 20 quid for it, I don't know how that works out in $s, but it's comparatively balanced against the assault cruiser, you know... the free thing... In a P2W system my Excelsior should be nearly as good as your Oddy, but it's not, you know why it's not? Try because it was made when everything was balanced. The oddy? No, that's not a fair test, that's P2W, hell the free escorts make BOTH free cruisers look like utter rubbish that they could blow up in seconds (which they could), that's not balance balance is the oddy vs a patrol escort... "Why?" you ask? because tactical has OP career powers which combined with escorts weapons which make anything else look rubbish (I'm sorry but it's true) means the only way to stand up to them is with P2L or some horribly specialised build that is not as fun to fly.
I have suggested a way to fix this however but I know it will never happen
By that logic my Excelsior should be in a similar position, I paid 20 quid for it, I don't know how that works out in $s, but it's comparatively balanced against the assault cruiser, you know... the free thing... In a P2W system my Excelsior should be nearly as good as your Oddy, but it's not, you know why it's not? Try because it was made when everything was balanced. The oddy? No, that's not a fair test, that's P2W, hell the free escorts make BOTH free cruisers look like utter rubbish that they could blow up in seconds (which they could), that's not balance balance is the oddy vs a patrol escort... "Why?" you ask? because tactical has OP career powers which combined with escorts weapons which make anything else look rubbish (I'm sorry but it's true) means the only way to stand up to them is with P2L or some horribly specialised build that is not as fun to fly.
I have suggested a way to fix this however but I know it will never happen
Odyssey Tactical Cruiser costs 2500 zen points. That translates into 25 US Dollars. Excelsior costs 2000 zen, which translates into 20 US Dollars. So the Odyssey still costs 125% of what your excelsior costs, so naturally it will perform AT LEAST 25% better.
Also your Excelsior is a Rear Admiral-Lower Half ship, whereas the Odyssey is a Vice Admiral ship. So again, it's a tier lower and should be expected to perform as such.
In addition, the Excelsior also has 3 engi BOff, and NO UNIVERSAL SLOTS. The Odyssey has one engi, and two universal. So it already has the potential to be a much much higher damage output ship.
Also, the Excelsior gains +5 to all power levels, whereas the Tactical Odyssey has +10 to weapons and +5 to shields and aux. That +5 power over the Excelsior in weapons, in addition to the possibility of an additional +10 weapons power from saucer sep means that the Tactical Odyssey can sustain higher damage per volley, which results in higher overall DPS.
Lastly, just look at overall stats. The oddy can tank better simply because it has more hull, stronger shields, and 10 consoles. It can turn better when saucer sep is active.
Trying to compare the two ships is like trying to compare an F-16 to an F-22. There are too many similarities, but the disparity in the differences are huge. If you really want to compare the Excelsior to something, compare it to another tier 4 c-store ship. Don't try to compare it to a tier 5 one.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
how about I compare it to it's CMDR counter-part? Oh wait... same damage output... (using the same 6 beams and similar engi boff skills) oh and same shield tankability... why ever did I get the retrofit? Ii can just fly the standard 1 around it'll still outperform the sovy!
how about I compare it to it's CMDR counter-part? Oh wait... same damage output... (using the same 6 beams and similar engi boff skills) oh and same shield tankability... why ever did I get the retrofit? Ii can just fly the standard 1 around it'll still outperform the sovy!
I think now you're mocking me, because I am almost sure you see the 2 fewer weapons, 13k less hull points and 4 fewer consoles, in addition to the lower ranking BOff slots...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I think now you're mocking me, because I am almost sure you see the 2 fewer weapons, 13k less hull points and 4 fewer consoles, in addition to the lower ranking BOff slots...
Please see this it explains my point perfectly, I did the testing myself and there are the results
Please see this it explains my point perfectly, I did the testing myself and there are the results
Read your thread. Still wouldn't want to be in your Cmdr Excelsior when a death pea/iso charge comes your way. Would want to be in a your Rear Admiral-Lower Half Excelsior if a death pea/iso charge headed your way. But in all honesty I always hated the Excelsior. That is an ugly ship man... no offense to you and your taste, but that ship... yeeeeesh... *shudders*. I agree with Scotty on that one.
But still, I wouldn't want to put your Cmdr Excelsior up against an AC. You'd probably get wiped. It would take a while, but in the end, the AC has access to more tactical abilities and is a much tankier ship. Harder to kill and can hit harder. I don't think you'd win bro.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
But still, I wouldn't want to put your Cmdr Excelsior up against an AC. You'd probably get wiped. It would take a while, but in the end, the AC has access to more tactical abilities and is a much tankier ship. Harder to kill and can hit harder. I don't think you'd win bro.
Also I'd love the opportunity to try, my RA Excelsior has taken down Oddys both with an Engineer at the helm using ESTF standard equipment and with a grade 41 Tac using nothing on the ship better than purple Mk VIII (it took some time and I thought a couple of times I was done but I won) So I'd love the challenge
Also I'd love the opportunity to try, my RA Excelsior has taken down Oddys both with an Engineer at the helm using ESTF standard equipment and with a grade 41 Tac using nothing on the ship better than purple Mk VIII (it took some time and I thought a couple of times I was done but I won) So I'd love the challenge
Hm... I would offer to challenge you myself, but atm I am set up for PvE, and too lazy to alter that XD. But I think that oddy must have been pretty bad, since stats alone would make an oddy able to survive just fine against an excelsior, or you really are that epic. I would accept either explanation tbh.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Hm... I would offer to challenge you myself, but atm I am set up for PvE, and too lazy to alter that XD.
Well I'm the same, I won't call you a coward for turning me down under any circumstances (I'm not like that).
My point is that the RA Excelsior should have something over the CMDR version to show for the extra boff skills and consoles but it doesn't in terms of shield tanking or in damage output... Strange don't you think?
Well I'm the same, I won't call you a coward for turning me down under any circumstances (I'm not like that).
My point is that the RA Excelsior should have something over the CMDR version to show for the extra boff skills and consoles but it doesn't in terms of shield tanking or in damage output... Strange don't you think?
It may be that there were additional factors in play, like buffs and debuffs (which are esp prevailant in stfs). I would recommend you test both ships in a sterile environment (1v1 match against a target dummy ship), and that should put the damage output question to rest.
As for the damage soak ability? Again, use a sterile environment and have someone attack you, and you just defend yourself (without shooting back, by defend, I mean use buffs and debuffs etc). Whichever of your ships takes longer to die, provided your shooter does the same thing, will prove that test.
As for shield tanking, if your ships have the same shield mod, of course they will be able to shield tank the same. But the thing with cruisers is that we hull tank. And THAT is where you WILL notice a difference between the Cmdr and RA versions.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
just had an interesting infected elite run with 5 cruisers. A Galaxy X (tac captain), all beam array. an assault cruiser (science captain), a tac oddy (engi captain), Starcruiser (engi captain) and myself in an oddy starcruiser (engi)
guess what...the team blew through that infected with 2 min left at the end. And i have to say we were actually only 4 since the starcruiser came in with multiple red injuries and was dead 70% of the time.
so much for cruiser and/or beam array firepower.
PS: i would like to think it was because of me, but it wasn't. That galaxy X captain plowed through those spheres with his beams like an escort. I had the honor of tanking, but failed 2 times due to 1 invis torpedo and one phone call.
I had the impression it should be a general comparsion between Cruisers and Escorts. If you state, that anyone not flying the ody is not optimized, I would suggest to take the bug ship as opponent, because it is the most strongest escort in game.
You have heard of DOFs, right? On my Fleet vorcha I run only one copy of EPTS3 and EPTW1, powered by 3 blue DOFs reducing the cooldown to 15 sec of each ability. I don't see any reason, why an escort cannot do this with EPTS2 and EPTW1. Escpacially the Bug ship can put EPTW1 in his Ens Eng and run another Lt. Eng with EPTS1 and RSP.
Okay, 3x Damage Control Engineer ... so, you're down to a single BFI Shield Distribution DOff (you ARE running a Warp Core Engineer with dual EPtX cycling, do you?). You're again trading in survivability. Acceptable on the Tor'Kaht if build as a tank instead of building it as a Raptor - not a good move on an Escort, you'd be back to glass cannon. And no: trading a 1min full shield recharge for a 3min20sec one is not enough. Especially since you'd trade your Aux2SIF right along with it, making you die from bleedthrough.
Not to mention that the 3x DCE version does not have a 100% uptime on either EPtX - max is a 92.5% chance for a cooldown proc with three purple ones. 7.5% chance of running naked for 15sec.
Odyssey Tactical Cruiser costs 2500 zen points. [...] If you really want to compare the Excelsior to something, compare it to another tier 4 c-store ship. Don't try to compare it to a tier 5 one.
The Ody is Tier 5. Well, actually Tier 5.5, as are all the 10-console ships.
The Excelsior it Tier 5.
There are no Tier 6 ships yet, any ship of RA AND VA level is considered T5, and they come with the same total BOff slots, console slots and relative hull/shields.
Fleet ships, lockbox ships and the Ody get about a 10% boost on shields and hull plus an additional console - but that's not a full tier.
Besides, the Ody as used for examples is the 50$ version, since the Saucer Seperation console costs another 25$.
By that logic my Excelsior should be in a similar position, I paid 20 quid for it, I don't know how that works out in $s, but it's comparatively balanced against the assault cruiser, you know... the free thing... In a P2W system my Excelsior should be nearly as good as your Oddy, but it's not, you know why it's not? Try because it was made when everything was balanced. The oddy? No, that's not a fair test, that's P2W, hell the free escorts make BOTH free cruisers look like utter rubbish that they could blow up in seconds (which they could), that's not balance balance is the oddy vs a patrol escort... "Why?" you ask? because tactical has OP career powers which combined with escorts weapons which make anything else look rubbish (I'm sorry but it's true) means the only way to stand up to them is with P2L or some horribly specialised build that is not as fun to fly.
I have suggested a way to fix this however but I know it will never happen
Actually ... can I take you up on this?
You bring the free T5 Escort, I bring the free T5 Cruiser (well, actually the mirror skin, but that shouldn't be a problem).
Last time I had the opportunity to duel an Escort, I was still using Mk X greens, and it took a PvP-build Defiant (alpha-striking from cloak, of course) usually about 5 minutes to bring me down. Two uses of all my Engi cooldowns, and then some.
While that ship still needs some work, I'd like to see how it does now - I'm pretty sure though it would be a LOT closer than you think.
Oh: I wouldn't mind either if you sent someone else and just watched, I'd really like to see the results, either way. And I can use the practice. No P2W consoles, just the free stuff. Anytime after the RSP gimp is undone next week.
We can do an ESTF or two afterwards, I'd like to see how you're doing with your cruiser.
Agreed?
All outgoing damage was to an Oddy with no shelds or buffs of any kind all incoming damage was to the configs shown here so I think the RA Excelsior could do with a slight DPS buff
I dunno, that extra 100 on the upper end of your damage shows the extra tac consoles. As for the damage taken, that's showing your extra engi conoles/BOff abilities.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I dunno, that extra 100 on the upper end of your damage shows the extra tac consoles. As for the damage taken, that's showing your extra engi conoles/BOff abilities.
it's not, the first set of figures is from the RA version
Odd. There should be an increase of at least 50-100 damage. mk XI blue gives a 24.4% damage increase, and after you factor in the dimishing returns, at least a 10% bonus... very odd indeed... maybe your cmdr version just got luckier with the damage rolls...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
All outgoing damage was to an Oddy with no shelds or buffs of any kind all incoming damage was to the configs shown here so I think the RA Excelsior could do with a slight DPS buff
How about we use the thread you made for this?
Just an idea, you know, not derailing this monster here. :P
Questions you might want to answer: range the same with both tests? Power settings?
After doing some Elite STF's last night I am just reminded of how weak beam arrays are in comparison to DHC's. In the last few patches the Borg spheres got harder with mobs and there HP rating was raised. Thats fine and dandy, but if you raise the hp of NPC's to make more of a challenge for cannon using ships, then doesn't that make it harder for beam firing ships to keep up? I was part of a put together team, that had mostly cruisers and one brand new carrier. I took us forever to beat "Infected" space last night. Beams take too long to do any damage to the hulls of the sphere mobs while trying survive. They are killing you faster than you can kill one of them. Beams DPS rating need to be raised to at least the cannons' level. Its like Elite PVE and PVP is only made for cannon firing ships to enjoy.
Firepower is the key to balancing the game for all types of players can enjoy, and not just certain types.
Beams have suffered becuase the NPCs HP and other stats where raised becuse even beam boats at the time found the Borg too easy to kill.
Follow that change with the changes made to Bfaw and beams in general from the Accuracy miss changes, and thats why beams now fall short in DPS unless you buff them with overclocked weapons power, nadion inversion, EPS transfer, DEM, BO or any of the Tac Captain powers.
Beam arrays at mk12 white have a damage profile of 220 DPV / 176 DPS with a 250 firing arc.
Single cannons at mk12 white have a damage profile of 159 DPV / 212 DPS with a 180 firing arc.
Boosting the DPS of BA to near cannon quality means you would have to lose something in the trade like firing arc or DPV.
Or boost single cannons up to a higher firing arc and buff DPV?
I agree that beams are weak damage-wise, but they kind of compensate in other areas. I mean after all, they have the most stable damage/distance ratios (lose out on not a whole lot of firepower in comparison to other weapons, namely cannons), and they have the largest firing arcs (270 degrees. I can't see any complaints that are valid to that). Imagine buffing the damage on that? That would make beam arrays stupidly overpowered. They are supposed to be sustained pressure damage, not "Let's be like Kirk and blow it away in one salvo" damage.
Now to your post. "Beams DPS rating need to be raised to at least the cannons' level." No. Just... no. I mean seriously think about that one. You have a weapon with a 270 degree firing arc. That means with a cruiser you can have 8 of them hitting a target simultaneously. That would be a little too powerful. And if you read a bunch of other posts I have put up in a lot of cruiser threads, you will see that beams can be used to deal a ton of damage. I run 6 beams and 2 torps, and I can usually keep my average damage per hit at around 8-900. If I then blow certain cds, I can raise it to over 1k pretty easily, and peak at around 1200. Which is more than enough sustained damage to demolish ANY borg ship.
Another quote that I found a little confusing "They are killing you faster than you can kill one of them." If you're in a cruiser and dying to spheres, that's not the game, that's you doing something wrong. Majorly wrong. You said you had a 4 cruiser 1 carrier team. That's a ton of tankiness. I mean, the carrier alone could probably endlessly dance with 2 spheres and never have to worry. You have enough cross-healing ability (I assume you cross-healed since it was a premade team) that it's probable that not even the gate should have been able to kill any of you. And even if you don't cross heal, most tier 5 and up cruisers have enough self-sustain that they can easily take on a sphere or three without ever losing their shields (or if they do then without dying).
You were correct on one thing though, the ESTFs and other PvE content are a little too damage based. Massive dps spurts are really the only thing that seem to matter, sustained DPS isn't a requisite anymore, just spike damage on stationary... unshielded... stupidly high hp targets. So again, you're right, an adjustment needs to be made there, but not really by buffing the damage on beams.
An alternative to buffing beam damage would instead be to reduce power usage of those beams so you can use them without having to constantly buffer your power. That I would stand behind.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Actually ... can I take you up on this?
You bring the free T5 Escort, I bring the free T5 Cruiser (well, actually the mirror skin, but that shouldn't be a problem).
Last time I had the opportunity to duel an Escort, I was still using Mk X greens, and it took a PvP-build Defiant (alpha-striking from cloak, of course) usually about 5 minutes to bring me down. Two uses of all my Engi cooldowns, and then some.
While that ship still needs some work, I'd like to see how it does now - I'm pretty sure though it would be a LOT closer than you think.
Oh: I wouldn't mind either if you sent someone else and just watched, I'd really like to see the results, either way. And I can use the practice. No P2W consoles, just the free stuff. Anytime after the RSP gimp is undone next week.
We can do an ESTF or two afterwards, I'd like to see how you're doing with your cruiser.
Agreed?
I'd love to give it a go, I love a good challenge (they make life more fun), it will involve me putting my tac back in their escort mind... but that's not a problem, as for the STFs, it would be a pleasure
I'd love to give it a go, I love a good challenge (they make life more fun), it will involve me putting my tac back in their escort mind... but that's not a problem, as for the STFs, it would be a pleasure
I still want to watch this. And kill the survi... err I mean give you guys a good outside PoV on the fight =D
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I'd love to give it a go, I love a good challenge (they make life more fun), it will involve me putting my tac back in their escort mind... but that's not a problem, as for the STFs, it would be a pleasure
Beams have suffered becuase the NPCs HP and other stats where raised becuse even beam boats at the time found the Borg too easy to kill.
Follow that change with the changes made to Bfaw and beams in general from the Accuracy miss changes, and thats why beams now fall short in DPS unless you buff them with overclocked weapons power, nadion inversion, EPS transfer, DEM, BO or any of the Tac Captain powers.
Beam arrays at mk12 white have a damage profile of 220 DPV / 176 DPS with a 250 firing arc.
Single cannons at mk12 white have a damage profile of 159 DPV / 212 DPS with a 180 firing arc.
Boosting the DPS of BA to near cannon quality means you would have to lose something in the trade like firing arc or DPV.
Or boost single cannons up to a higher firing arc and buff DPV?
I can live with that 180 fire arc as l long as I get the damage. Or they can replace single cannons with beams ,since they are not used that much. DHC's are more commonly used to deal damage. If you get rid of single cannons and put beams at the DPS rate of single cannons that would help even the gap between DHC's and beams.
If you were in a 5 man team, 2 dropped out and it takes an hour or more to beat Elite Infected with beams, when the last time you played with just 3 in a team while using cannons it took 30 mins or less to beat the same scenerio, wouldn't you notice the difference? The difference is too great to make an excuse for it. On top of that, beams comming from a Galaxy-R is that much more weaker than other cruisers. It's like the Galaxy-R is a tier 5 ship with tier 4 power.
Beams have suffered becuase the NPCs HP and other stats where raised becuse even beam boats at the time found the Borg too easy to kill.
Follow that change with the changes made to Bfaw and beams in general from the Accuracy miss changes, and thats why beams now fall short in DPS unless you buff them with overclocked weapons power, nadion inversion, EPS transfer, DEM, BO or any of the Tac Captain powers.
Beam arrays at mk12 white have a damage profile of 220 DPV / 176 DPS with a 250 firing arc.
Single cannons at mk12 white have a damage profile of 159 DPV / 212 DPS with a 180 firing arc.
Boosting the DPS of BA to near cannon quality means you would have to lose something in the trade like firing arc or DPV.
Or boost single cannons up to a higher firing arc and buff DPV?
I'd be with upping the single damage potential. They don't really hold much of much of a candle to most of the weapons (shy turrets and mines) except for critting because of the damage resistance being applied to every shot fired, they end up less damaging than ba's.
In all fairness I did take my engi out in their Excelsior on Tribble and did the first part of a borg encounter solo (defeat 4 groups) and if the bloody command ship didn't spawn stuff and put out grav well 3s I might have beaten that too
Comments
By that logic my Excelsior should be in a similar position, I paid 20 quid for it, I don't know how that works out in $s, but it's comparatively balanced against the assault cruiser, you know... the free thing... In a P2W system my Excelsior should be nearly as good as your Oddy, but it's not, you know why it's not? Try because it was made when everything was balanced. The oddy? No, that's not a fair test, that's P2W, hell the free escorts make BOTH free cruisers look like utter rubbish that they could blow up in seconds (which they could), that's not balance balance is the oddy vs a patrol escort... "Why?" you ask? because tactical has OP career powers which combined with escorts weapons which make anything else look rubbish (I'm sorry but it's true) means the only way to stand up to them is with P2L or some horribly specialised build that is not as fun to fly.
I have suggested a way to fix this however but I know it will never happen
See here for the latest of my ideas
Odyssey Tactical Cruiser costs 2500 zen points. That translates into 25 US Dollars. Excelsior costs 2000 zen, which translates into 20 US Dollars. So the Odyssey still costs 125% of what your excelsior costs, so naturally it will perform AT LEAST 25% better.
Also your Excelsior is a Rear Admiral-Lower Half ship, whereas the Odyssey is a Vice Admiral ship. So again, it's a tier lower and should be expected to perform as such.
In addition, the Excelsior also has 3 engi BOff, and NO UNIVERSAL SLOTS. The Odyssey has one engi, and two universal. So it already has the potential to be a much much higher damage output ship.
Also, the Excelsior gains +5 to all power levels, whereas the Tactical Odyssey has +10 to weapons and +5 to shields and aux. That +5 power over the Excelsior in weapons, in addition to the possibility of an additional +10 weapons power from saucer sep means that the Tactical Odyssey can sustain higher damage per volley, which results in higher overall DPS.
Lastly, just look at overall stats. The oddy can tank better simply because it has more hull, stronger shields, and 10 consoles. It can turn better when saucer sep is active.
Trying to compare the two ships is like trying to compare an F-16 to an F-22. There are too many similarities, but the disparity in the differences are huge. If you really want to compare the Excelsior to something, compare it to another tier 4 c-store ship. Don't try to compare it to a tier 5 one.
I think now you're mocking me, because I am almost sure you see the 2 fewer weapons, 13k less hull points and 4 fewer consoles, in addition to the lower ranking BOff slots...
Please see this it explains my point perfectly, I did the testing myself and there are the results
Read your thread. Still wouldn't want to be in your Cmdr Excelsior when a death pea/iso charge comes your way. Would want to be in a your Rear Admiral-Lower Half Excelsior if a death pea/iso charge headed your way. But in all honesty I always hated the Excelsior. That is an ugly ship man... no offense to you and your taste, but that ship... yeeeeesh... *shudders*. I agree with Scotty on that one.
But still, I wouldn't want to put your Cmdr Excelsior up against an AC. You'd probably get wiped. It would take a while, but in the end, the AC has access to more tactical abilities and is a much tankier ship. Harder to kill and can hit harder. I don't think you'd win bro.
Been there, done that, lived to tell the tale (and help a captain level escort defend Kang in CSE)
Also I'd love the opportunity to try, my RA Excelsior has taken down Oddys both with an Engineer at the helm using ESTF standard equipment and with a grade 41 Tac using nothing on the ship better than purple Mk VIII (it took some time and I thought a couple of times I was done but I won) So I'd love the challenge
Hm... I would offer to challenge you myself, but atm I am set up for PvE, and too lazy to alter that XD. But I think that oddy must have been pretty bad, since stats alone would make an oddy able to survive just fine against an excelsior, or you really are that epic. I would accept either explanation tbh.
Well I'm the same, I won't call you a coward for turning me down under any circumstances (I'm not like that).
My point is that the RA Excelsior should have something over the CMDR version to show for the extra boff skills and consoles but it doesn't in terms of shield tanking or in damage output... Strange don't you think?
It may be that there were additional factors in play, like buffs and debuffs (which are esp prevailant in stfs). I would recommend you test both ships in a sterile environment (1v1 match against a target dummy ship), and that should put the damage output question to rest.
As for the damage soak ability? Again, use a sterile environment and have someone attack you, and you just defend yourself (without shooting back, by defend, I mean use buffs and debuffs etc). Whichever of your ships takes longer to die, provided your shooter does the same thing, will prove that test.
As for shield tanking, if your ships have the same shield mod, of course they will be able to shield tank the same. But the thing with cruisers is that we hull tank. And THAT is where you WILL notice a difference between the Cmdr and RA versions.
guess what...the team blew through that infected with 2 min left at the end. And i have to say we were actually only 4 since the starcruiser came in with multiple red injuries and was dead 70% of the time.
so much for cruiser and/or beam array firepower.
PS: i would like to think it was because of me, but it wasn't. That galaxy X captain plowed through those spheres with his beams like an escort. I had the honor of tanking, but failed 2 times due to 1 invis torpedo and one phone call.
I hate the day teh Borg realized the power of Telemarketing.
R.I.P
Where was I when I left? Ahhh, right:
Okay, 3x Damage Control Engineer ... so, you're down to a single BFI Shield Distribution DOff (you ARE running a Warp Core Engineer with dual EPtX cycling, do you?). You're again trading in survivability. Acceptable on the Tor'Kaht if build as a tank instead of building it as a Raptor - not a good move on an Escort, you'd be back to glass cannon. And no: trading a 1min full shield recharge for a 3min20sec one is not enough. Especially since you'd trade your Aux2SIF right along with it, making you die from bleedthrough.
Not to mention that the 3x DCE version does not have a 100% uptime on either EPtX - max is a 92.5% chance for a cooldown proc with three purple ones. 7.5% chance of running naked for 15sec.
The Ody is Tier 5. Well, actually Tier 5.5, as are all the 10-console ships.
The Excelsior it Tier 5.
There are no Tier 6 ships yet, any ship of RA AND VA level is considered T5, and they come with the same total BOff slots, console slots and relative hull/shields.
Fleet ships, lockbox ships and the Ody get about a 10% boost on shields and hull plus an additional console - but that's not a full tier.
Besides, the Ody as used for examples is the 50$ version, since the Saucer Seperation console costs another 25$.
Actually ... can I take you up on this?
You bring the free T5 Escort, I bring the free T5 Cruiser (well, actually the mirror skin, but that shouldn't be a problem).
Last time I had the opportunity to duel an Escort, I was still using Mk X greens, and it took a PvP-build Defiant (alpha-striking from cloak, of course) usually about 5 minutes to bring me down. Two uses of all my Engi cooldowns, and then some.
While that ship still needs some work, I'd like to see how it does now - I'm pretty sure though it would be a LOT closer than you think.
Oh: I wouldn't mind either if you sent someone else and just watched, I'd really like to see the results, either way. And I can use the practice. No P2W consoles, just the free stuff. Anytime after the RSP gimp is undone next week.
We can do an ESTF or two afterwards, I'd like to see how you're doing with your cruiser.
Agreed?
Excel - R
DPH 500 - 800, Crit 1000-1500
Tank 101k over 5 mins
Heal 200k
Excel
DPH 500 - 900, Crit 100-1500
Tank 46907 over 5 mins
Heal 156k
All outgoing damage was to an Oddy with no shelds or buffs of any kind all incoming damage was to the configs shown here so I think the RA Excelsior could do with a slight DPS buff
it's not, the first set of figures is from the RA version
How about we use the thread you made for this?
Just an idea, you know, not derailing this monster here. :P
Questions you might want to answer: range the same with both tests? Power settings?
Firepower is the key to balancing the game for all types of players can enjoy, and not just certain types.
Follow that change with the changes made to Bfaw and beams in general from the Accuracy miss changes, and thats why beams now fall short in DPS unless you buff them with overclocked weapons power, nadion inversion, EPS transfer, DEM, BO or any of the Tac Captain powers.
Beam arrays at mk12 white have a damage profile of 220 DPV / 176 DPS with a 250 firing arc.
Single cannons at mk12 white have a damage profile of 159 DPV / 212 DPS with a 180 firing arc.
Boosting the DPS of BA to near cannon quality means you would have to lose something in the trade like firing arc or DPV.
Or boost single cannons up to a higher firing arc and buff DPV?
R.I.P
Now to your post. "Beams DPS rating need to be raised to at least the cannons' level." No. Just... no. I mean seriously think about that one. You have a weapon with a 270 degree firing arc. That means with a cruiser you can have 8 of them hitting a target simultaneously. That would be a little too powerful. And if you read a bunch of other posts I have put up in a lot of cruiser threads, you will see that beams can be used to deal a ton of damage. I run 6 beams and 2 torps, and I can usually keep my average damage per hit at around 8-900. If I then blow certain cds, I can raise it to over 1k pretty easily, and peak at around 1200. Which is more than enough sustained damage to demolish ANY borg ship.
Another quote that I found a little confusing "They are killing you faster than you can kill one of them." If you're in a cruiser and dying to spheres, that's not the game, that's you doing something wrong. Majorly wrong. You said you had a 4 cruiser 1 carrier team. That's a ton of tankiness. I mean, the carrier alone could probably endlessly dance with 2 spheres and never have to worry. You have enough cross-healing ability (I assume you cross-healed since it was a premade team) that it's probable that not even the gate should have been able to kill any of you. And even if you don't cross heal, most tier 5 and up cruisers have enough self-sustain that they can easily take on a sphere or three without ever losing their shields (or if they do then without dying).
You were correct on one thing though, the ESTFs and other PvE content are a little too damage based. Massive dps spurts are really the only thing that seem to matter, sustained DPS isn't a requisite anymore, just spike damage on stationary... unshielded... stupidly high hp targets. So again, you're right, an adjustment needs to be made there, but not really by buffing the damage on beams.
An alternative to buffing beam damage would instead be to reduce power usage of those beams so you can use them without having to constantly buffer your power. That I would stand behind.
I'd love to give it a go, I love a good challenge (they make life more fun), it will involve me putting my tac back in their escort mind... but that's not a problem, as for the STFs, it would be a pleasure
I still want to watch this. And kill the survi... err I mean give you guys a good outside PoV on the fight =D
Perfect.
Feel free to throw a friend-invite my way so we can fix the date and details.
@-name = forum-name
I can live with that 180 fire arc as l long as I get the damage. Or they can replace single cannons with beams ,since they are not used that much. DHC's are more commonly used to deal damage. If you get rid of single cannons and put beams at the DPS rate of single cannons that would help even the gap between DHC's and beams.
If you were in a 5 man team, 2 dropped out and it takes an hour or more to beat Elite Infected with beams, when the last time you played with just 3 in a team while using cannons it took 30 mins or less to beat the same scenerio, wouldn't you notice the difference? The difference is too great to make an excuse for it. On top of that, beams comming from a Galaxy-R is that much more weaker than other cruisers. It's like the Galaxy-R is a tier 5 ship with tier 4 power.
I'd be with upping the single damage potential. They don't really hold much of much of a candle to most of the weapons (shy turrets and mines) except for critting because of the damage resistance being applied to every shot fired, they end up less damaging than ba's.
Done so, see you in game
@-name = Forum-name also