IMHO, the devs should just release a "Mirror Galaxy Class" with the BOFF & Console layout of a Ferengi D'Kora.
Live long and prosper.
Oh yes, I'd like that. Just the layout, everything else is fine (no dual cannons and stuff).
It's not what I expect from a Gal, but seeing it outgunned by even a Ferengi marauder is too much for me
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I have watched every battle shown in the dominion war multiple times, never is a galaxy class shown one offing a dominion battleship or dreadnaught. In fact, they never one shot a single ship in the war. The Defiant destroys ships with single bursts on multiple occasions, with both pulse phasers and quantum torpedoes. A couple BOP shots combined with a couple defiant bursts destroy an entire dominion battle cruiser in Sisko's run, perhaps thats the scene you are confusing with a galaxy class. Even if you have not seen it, you still haven't addressed the very obvious fact that the Galaxy Class cut right through the combined Dominion and Cardassian lines and was seen several times attacking the rear of their formation.
As for your jolly edit of my post, the incorrect assumption there was that the sovereign is my favorite ship, that would be the connie refit, but the sovy is third on my fav enterprise design list, so you were kind of close. Finally, the Odyssey was in fact destroyed by the Dominion, it was the first battle of the factions. So the galaxy is actually 0/1 against the dominion. The Dominion War is from 2373 to 2375. The Odyssey was destroyed in 2370. So I win by all accounts :rolleyes:
Your wall of blue text is also nothing but fanon, it may come from a technical manuel or something, but that sadly does not make it fact. Also, there is no technical manuel with the deets on sovy phasers, so the argument isn't even complete. Additionally those manuals are a standard for EVERY starship equipped with an array.
Meaning it also works for the Sovereign.
Lol, love it.
First you tell me to do more research, and when I come back with numbers and legitimate arguments you dismiss them outright.
ah Ilithi_Dragon, haven't seen him since the old bethsoft star trek legacy board. someone should tell him anyone can post on the forum here now.
Oh he knows.
We ran these threads into the hundreds of pages with Catamount, Ex-Astris, MajorD and a few others.
Sadly those threads have all been locked and you can't gain access to them anymore even you happened to still have them bookmarked after all these years ><
Oh he knows.
We ran these threads into the hundreds of pages with Catamount, Ex-Astris, MajorD and a few others.
Sadly those threads have all been locked and you can't gain access to them anymore even you happened to still have them bookmarked after all these years ><
ya i remember all those names. ive been posting what we all would agree are the facts behind all this stuff here for more then 2 years now, alone and without backup, in the face of the most vitriolic fan boy rants i have ever encountered. ya all the old threads here are gone, a gal vs sov thread i bookmarked i cant access anymore.
First you tell me to do more research, and when I come back with numbers and legitimate arguments you dismiss them outright.
Ok, its old now. Go and find the footage of a galaxy one shot-ing a dominion ship, any dominion ship, I dare you. If you can do that I will change my entire stance and support this argument that would break the balance of ship design across the entire game. Until then everything you say is vapor, you have to desperately cling on to your claims by stating the odyssey wasn't owned during the Dominion war, but it was still undeniably owned by the dominion.
regardless of what some guy said, the tech manual was made by the person that overseas tech consistency on the show. he creates canon, and he created the tech manual.
you used the word disqualify on an instance that you arbitrarily think doesn't count. the instances were the galaxy fights arent numbers you can add up and then divide, thay are set in stone occurrences. the best showing is the base line, period. a poorer showing for no good reason is an anomaly. if it didn't fight to its observed potential and lost, something is very wrong. does this really need explaining?
I looked up the people who wrote it, and its a pretty impressive list. But canon is always utterly defined by a show, the thing that brings in the most fans, the thing that establishes an idea. These same technical advisors were in on all the times the galaxy class just did an average or plain bad job at fighting.
I am dumb founded by you how you guys love to make this argument that the galaxy phasers are better, but don't even have any pseudo canon data on the sovy phasers. Someone who is an expert within the guaranteed canon, no matter what, compared the two vessels from a combat perspective and put the sovy on top. It is the most legitimate piece of data you can put in on the sovys side of the comparison.
I don't know why its so hard for you guys to comprehend that for the first time in Star Fleet history they were allowed to make vessels specifically for war. They may be given names that alude to a slightly different role, but that fact is true. It makes perfect sense that the new generation of ships made during this time are better fighters, you guys are literally implying that the star fleet core of engineers are stupid. "Hey guys, lets make a new flag ship, designed for the hard battles ahead, but lets not make it as strong as the last flag ship that would be silly."
Show me the page in a technical manual with Sovy phaser info and I might even denounce the expert Geordi, and I will admit that you guys make a good argument.
I looked up the people who wrote it, and its a pretty impressive list. But canon is always utterly defined by a show, the thing that brings in the most fans, the thing that establishes an idea. These same technical advisors were in on all the times the galaxy class just did an average or plain bad job at fighting.
I am dumb founded by you how you guys love to make this argument that the galaxy phasers are better, but don't even have any pseudo canon data on the sovy phasers. Someone who is an expert within the guaranteed canon, no matter what, compared the two vessels from a combat perspective and put the sovy on top. It is the most legitimate piece of data you can put in on the sovys side of the comparison.
I don't know why its so hard for you guys to comprehend that for the first time in Star Fleet history they were allowed to make vessels specifically for war. They may be given names that alude to a slightly different role, but that fact is true. It makes perfect sense that the new generation of ships made during this time are better fighters, you guys are literally implying that the star fleet core of engineers are stupid. "Hey guys, lets make a new flag ship, designed for the hard battles ahead, but lets not make it as strong as the last flag ship that would be silly."
Show me the page in a technical manual with Sovy phaser info and I might even denounce the expert Geordi, and I will admit that you guys make a good argument.
You already have the data.
That blue wall of text as you called it has it in it.
That is how all phaser arrays work. Regardless of what class of ship they are equipped on. So if you go and watch all the movies where the Ent E fires her phasers, supposedly at full strength. Then go and look at episodes like Q Who which has some of the Ent D strongest shots, you can see the SDE at work.
Fact of the matter is that a Galaxy has more emitters to pass along power than the Sovereign does. She has consistently demonstrated combat capabilities that are superior to anything else shown on screen by Star Fleet.
That isn't conjecture, thats just how it is on screen.
As for anything else I can say. There is nothing to be said. You are set in your belief that you are correct and that nothing we say will ever be even remotely true. Any further argument or debate with you is pointless.
(looking into the future I see some remark about us running away after being confronted with our own obvious falsehoods:rolleyes:)
(looking into the future I see some remark about us running away after being confronted with our own obvious falsehoods:rolleyes:)
hes pretty much incoherent at this point. is geordi dropping a line that the newest class of ship is the most advanced supposed to surprise anyone? of course the newest ship is the most advanced, but advanced =/= most powerful. is the newest, most advanced shuttle more powerful then a galaxy class too?
starfleet already had a perfectly good battleship that was less then a decade old when the sovereign was being made, thats why the sovereign isn't a comparable size to the galaxy. old mid sized ships like the excelsior needed replacing, thats the role the sov filled. its a new cutting edge heavy cruiser, it is half the size of the federations largest and most powerful battleship, the galaxy. they don't compete with each other at some top tier.
the sovereign phaser arrays are type 12, they are a newer generation emitter, but they operate exactly the same as any other phaser arrays. there is a figure quoted for type 10 to have an output of 5.1, and type 12 having an output of 7.2. well, according to the tech manual the galaxy has 200 emitters in its largest array.
200x 5.1= 1020.
i'll be extreamly generous, and say the sov's longest array has half as many emitters, even though its less then half as long.
100x7.2=720
its not even close. and it would only be a mater of time before type 12 were installed on a galaxy. what do these numbers mean exactly? who knows. but it looks like the ratio between each of thier best shots to me.
You guys are getting so desperate that you just have to outright dismiss that I am saying anything at all. Here is a link to view the entire DS9 technical manual.
Nowhere inside will you find technical stats on the sovereign class. The mathematical equation you provide on phaser power comparison is incomplete. The only mention of a comparison between the two ships in canon puts the sovereign class on top in overall combat ability. Trying to insinuate that Geordi was talking about anything else is silly, they were trying to convince Picard to go into battle. Geordi would not encourage this with such language unless he knew they had the tactical edge over all other ships.
Oh yes, I'd like that. Just the layout, everything else is fine (no dual cannons and stuff).
It's not what I expect from a Gal, but seeing it outgunned by even a Ferengi marauder is too much for me
Yeah i forgot to say, no DHCs and no "Battle module 3000" for the Galaxy Class, of course.
I think it should keep the Saucer Seperation console, i think it wouldn't be a big problem, since it wouldn't be able to use Heavy Cannons.
I'm not so sure about giving it a Beam Overload III console (maybe with a 2 min timer). do you think that ship would be overpowered with such a console?
Anyway, i think the Lockbox ship would still be superior, but not as resounding superior as it is now.
I think a BOFF and Console layout would work for a "Mirror Universe" Galaxy Class.
The "real" galaxy Class wouldn't be affected at all, all "nay" sayers could flay the "tank" Galaxy Class, everyone else could fly a ship with much more "punch" and cryptic would make a lot of $$.
To be honest, i think it would be a win - win for everyone.
I think it was a really cruel joke to introduce such a superior Galor and D'kora, but leaving the Galaxy so weak.
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Yeah i forgot to say, no DHCs and no "Battle module 3000" for the Galaxy Class, of course.
I think it should keep the Saucer Seperation console, i think it wouldn't be a big problem, since it wouldn't be able to use Heavy Cannons.
I'm not so sure about giving it a Beam Overload III console (maybe with a 2 min timer). do you think that ship would be overpowered with such a console?
Anyway, i think the Lockbox ship would still be superior, but not as resounding superior as it is now.
I think a BOFF and Console layout would work for a "Mirror Universe" Galaxy Class.
The "real" galaxy Class wouldn't be affected at all, all "nay" sayers could flay the "tank" Galaxy Class, everyone else could fly a ship with much more "punch" and cryptic would make a lot of $$.
To be honest, i think it would be a win - win for everyone.
I think it was a really cruel joke to introduce such a superior Galor and D'kora, but leaving the Galaxy so weak.
Live long and prosper.
The Galaxy X has a superior Beam Overload and its not considered OP.
So go ahead and toss in the BO III.
No real reason to keep the Saucer Separation console or even as an ability.
Buff its HP along with all the other T5 ships to an equal value of those from the C-Store and Fleet variants.
Increase its turn speed to 8, buff the Sovereigns as well to 9 or 10.
Modify the RCS consoles to have a depreciating modifier, if they don't already.
Introduce new weapon variants.
DHC and HC are already restricted weapon types, exclusive to certain types of ships Fed side. So why not do it again?
This time introduce Heavy Beam Arrays that can only equipped on larger hulls such as Cruisers and select larger Science Vessels.
Of course this then means that Cruisers in general may be to OP seeing as you just buffed the entire Cruiser line by doing the above. So! /shrug
The Galaxy X has a superior Beam Overload and its not considered OP.
So go ahead and toss in the BO III.
No real reason to keep the Saucer Separation console or even as an ability.
The Galaxy is no Galaxy -X. Meaning, it has no phaser lance. On the other hand the phaser lance is more powerful than a Beam overload III. Thats why i asked if a Beam Overload III console on a normal Galaxy could maybe a bit too much.
If thats the case, maybe a Beam Overload II console would be ok instead.
I don't want the "mirror" Galaxy Class be turned into a Galaxy X, i was proposing a tactical focused Galaxy Class that can do some serious damage without being over powered.
(If you didn't read my original suggestion: I wanted to propose a "mirror" Galaxy Class featuring the BOFF & Console Layout of the Ferengi D'Kora.)
Buff its HP along with all the other T5 ships to an equal value of those from the C-Store and Fleet variants.
Increase its turn speed to 8, buff the Sovereigns as well to 9 or 10.
Modify the RCS consoles to have a depreciating modifier, if they don't already.
Introduce new weapon variants.
DHC and HC are already restricted weapon types, exclusive to certain types of ships Fed side. So why not do it again?
This time introduce Heavy Beam Arrays that can only equipped on larger hulls such as Cruisers and select larger Science Vessels.
I am all for that. Maybe give those Heavy Beam arrays a narrow fireing arc like the DHCs but to the ships sides. So they are mainly boardsiding waepons.
Of course this then means that Cruisers in general may be to OP seeing as you just buffed the entire Cruiser line by doing the above. So! /shrug
What are you talking about?!?
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Introduce new weapon variants.
DHC and HC are already restricted weapon types, exclusive to certain types of ships Fed side. So why not do it again?
This time introduce Heavy Beam Arrays that can only equipped on larger hulls such as Cruisers and select larger Science Vessels.
Of course this then means that Cruisers in general may be to OP seeing as you just buffed the entire Cruiser line by doing the above. So! /shrug
Lol... this was already introduced about 25 posts back by myself and yeodred XD. However we all know that this long thread and all the logical arguments both for and against the galaxy and cruisers in general will mean nothing, since PWE will not change the ship or the game just because a bunch of players had a pow wow about it.
Not trying to be a buzzkill, just giving a reality check. The game is as it is. We may all want it to change, hell I am sick of cruisers in general getting the TRIBBLE end of the stick, I love my canon and other ships, and I love my big-@#$ TRIBBLE that can fly around laying down the law with heavy phasers, but guess what, that big-@#$ TRIBBLE flies around laying down the law and then gets shelacked by a passing escort or BoP just for fun.
It's how the game is. I can tank a cube forever in my galaxy (yes, my tier 3 ship can tank elite stf cubes) but I can never kill it. Oh wells. I see escorts kill them and tank them forever. Where in ANYTHING does it say that escorts can solo dreadnaught or battleship class ships? Yeah, smear the smaller ships across 100km of space... but to be able to kill a battleship/dreadnaught/chuck norris class ship without ANY support of ANY kind?
It's come down to this. It's not just the Galaxy that's suffered. It's ALL cruisers. KDF pilots don't really see that, since the vor'cha, neg'var, and tor'kaht ships are amazing cruisers, and can not only take damage but give it back, but hell Cryptic covered it's butt by calling them BATTLEcruisers. So that's fair. But to keep fed cruisers and battleships and even dreadnaughts (yes, we have dreads, not only the galaxy dreadnaught, but the odyssey as well) on the @#$% end of the stick? Can you say bull-@#$%??
No, they can't one shot dominion ships. No they can't take on the entire frakkin fleet on their own. No they can't smear the borg/romulans/klingons/undine/cardassians/the nearby asteroids, and they aren't supposed to be able to do it. They don't wipe the floor with them (much... XP). But don't make it so that they have to sacrifice their damage ability to be able to tank too.
I know this is getting wall of text level, but at this point IDGAF. I have all the cruisers from canon (picked the engi specifically because I got to fly canon ships, or at least modern versions of them (excalibur instead of connie, sorry TOS fans) and have a galaxy, sovy, and stargazer (sorry, never liked the cheyenne class, again, don't hate) and use gal and sov the most) and loved flying them. Until I realized that their damage output blew (and this is the point where the "oh it's not the ship, it's you and your TRIBBLE build" comes into play, well you can blow it out your @#$ cuz it's not me and my TRIBBLE build it IS the fkin ships and the weapons you overblown @#$%) and I realized that my second favorite ship, the USS Defiant and it's class variants were the main damage dealers.
I was ok with that until I realized that they were the ONLY class of ships that could put out consistently high numbers. It was at this point I started to see that not only did my captain class get derped (engineers are not known for damage) and FORCED me to become a healboat, but then realized that I would not only be forced to be a healboat, but I wouldn't be able to hurt much to fill my niche. And that just sucked.
I remember from the shows that when a Galaxy/Sovereign/Dreadnaught showed up, enemies backed off in fear. Now if one of those show up, and you're in an STF, you kinda sigh in an "Oh great, there goes the optional..." way or if you're in PvP you "Oh great, now we have a healer. Yay!". That to me is just plain unacceptable. It should be if one of those warps in in an STF "Now we're talkin, @#$% just got REAL!" or in PvP if one comes you should be going "Alright, let's do this!" and the other team should be going "TRIBBLE, now WE need one". Cuz those were the FLAGSHIPS of the federation fleet. And the Odyssey, hell that thing saves your butt in "Boldly They Rode" (yes it does, it keeps that damn dread off of you while you clean up). And she is the new flagship. But outside of that mission, the oddy is not that great, and outside of the shows, these massive battleships, flagships, esp in this game, are just healers. Healers.
I know a lot of you are going to take my argument/rant, break it up into little pieces, and then burn it down bit by bit, but you all can suck it. I loved Star Trek. All of them. And they way this game has portrayed iconic ships and canon wonders is just horrid. This is the point where you guys say "well ok, quit then". I just might tbh. But this injustice is that. An injustice. These ships MADE the franchise. "Here are the voyages of the starship Enterprise... To boldly go where no man has gone before." Not "Here are the voyages of the starship Enterprise and her cadre of escorts... To boldly go where no man has gone before then be forced to sit in the rear and heal the escorts cuz not everyone is friendly to us." These ships should be the centerpieces of the fleets. They should be the heart and soul of fleets, and able to lay down the law when the need arises.
Ok, this post is too long, I'm gonna stop now...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Lol... this was already introduced about 25 posts back by myself and yeodred XD. However we all know that this long thread and all the logical arguments both for and against the galaxy and cruisers in general will mean nothing, since PWE will not change the ship or the game just because a bunch of players had a pow wow about it.
Not trying to be a buzzkill, just giving a reality check. The game is as it is. We may all want it to change, hell I am sick of cruisers in general getting the TRIBBLE end of the stick, I love my canon and other ships, and I love my big-@#$ TRIBBLE that can fly around laying down the law with heavy phasers, but guess what, that big-@#$ TRIBBLE flies around laying down the law and then gets shelacked by a passing escort or BoP just for fun.
It's how the game is. I can tank a cube forever in my galaxy (yes, my tier 3 ship can tank elite stf cubes) but I can never kill it. Oh wells. I see escorts kill them and tank them forever. Where in ANYTHING does it say that escorts can solo dreadnaught or battleship class ships? Yeah, smear the smaller ships across 100km of space... but to be able to kill a battleship/dreadnaught/chuck norris class ship without ANY support of ANY kind?
It's come down to this. It's not just the Galaxy that's suffered. It's ALL cruisers. KDF pilots don't really see that, since the vor'cha, neg'var, and tor'kaht ships are amazing cruisers, and can not only take damage but give it back, but hell Cryptic covered it's butt by calling them BATTLEcruisers. So that's fair. But to keep fed cruisers and battleships and even dreadnaughts (yes, we have dreads, not only the galaxy dreadnaught, but the odyssey as well) on the @#$% end of the stick? Can you say bull-@#$%??
No, they can't one shot dominion ships. No they can't take on the entire frakkin fleet on their own. No they can't smear the borg/romulans/klingons/undine/cardassians/the nearby asteroids, and they aren't supposed to be able to do it. They don't wipe the floor with them (much... XP). But don't make it so that they have to sacrifice their damage ability to be able to tank too.
I know this is getting wall of text level, but at this point IDGAF. I have all the cruisers from canon (picked the engi specifically because I got to fly canon ships, or at least modern versions of them (excalibur instead of connie, sorry TOS fans) and have a galaxy, sovy, and stargazer (sorry, never liked the cheyenne class, again, don't hate) and use gal and sov the most) and loved flying them. Until I realized that their damage output blew (and this is the point where the "oh it's not the ship, it's you and your TRIBBLE build" comes into play, well you can blow it out your @#$ cuz it's not me and my TRIBBLE build it IS the fkin ships and the weapons you overblown @#$%) and I realized that my second favorite ship, the USS Defiant and it's class variants were the main damage dealers.
I was ok with that until I realized that they were the ONLY class of ships that could put out consistently high numbers. It was at this point I started to see that not only did my captain class get derped (engineers are not known for damage) and FORCED me to become a healboat, but then realized that I would not only be forced to be a healboat, but I wouldn't be able to hurt much to fill my niche. And that just sucked.
I remember from the shows that when a Galaxy/Sovereign/Dreadnaught showed up, enemies backed off in fear. Now if one of those show up, and you're in an STF, you kinda sigh in an "Oh great, there goes the optional..." way or if you're in PvP you "Oh great, now we have a healer. Yay!". That to me is just plain unacceptable. It should be if one of those warps in in an STF "Now we're talkin, @#$% just got REAL!" or in PvP if one comes you should be going "Alright, let's do this!" and the other team should be going "TRIBBLE, now WE need one". Cuz those were the FLAGSHIPS of the federation fleet. And the Odyssey, hell that thing saves your butt in "Boldly They Rode" (yes it does, it keeps that damn dread off of you while you clean up). And she is the new flagship. But outside of that mission, the oddy is not that great, and outside of the shows, these massive battleships, flagships, esp in this game, are just healers. Healers.
I know a lot of you are going to take my argument/rant, break it up into little pieces, and then burn it down bit by bit, but you all can suck it. I loved Star Trek. All of them. And they way this game has portrayed iconic ships and canon wonders is just horrid. This is the point where you guys say "well ok, quit then". I just might tbh. But this injustice is that. An injustice. These ships MADE the franchise. "Here are the voyages of the starship Enterprise... To boldly go where no man has gone before." Not "Here are the voyages of the starship Enterprise and her cadre of escorts... To boldly go where no man has gone before then be forced to sit in the rear and heal the escorts cuz not everyone is friendly to us." These ships should be the centerpieces of the fleets. They should be the heart and soul of fleets, and able to lay down the law when the need arises.
Ok, this post is too long, I'm gonna stop now...
I'm with you brother.
It's good to be not the only one feeling like this.
It's the devs who don't care about making a good Star Trek game. With STO they have made their own twisted Star Trek game, which only reflects the name Star Trek.
Like some other people here on the forums the devs see STO mainly as a MMO, i think thats the difference between us and them.
We want STO to be a Star Trek game and not some weird Trek parody.
They turned Star Trek ships upside down, making small specialzed ships much more powerful than 10x bigger ships that where the backbone and heart of Starfleet.
Maybe the devs thought Star Trek would be boring, maybe they wanted to make a Star Wars game, i don't care.
STO is a StarTrek game and i expect it to be like one.
I don't blame the devs maybe they can't do it better, i blame the owners of the Star Trek ip.
They seemingly don't care for anything else than releasing a movie every couple of years (or even less frequent).
I have seen other games, like Bridge commander, Starfleet Command I - III, Armada I + II even Final Unitiy. NONE of them had escorts that much overpowered and Cruisers that weak. I just don't get it how they have come to the very idea to create ships like they did.
Sorry i don't want to rant about STO anymore i am just tired and i already did that more than enough.
You are right they won't change anything and most players seem not to care.....
Personally i am just sad that ships in STO ended up like this. It could easily have been a great reflection of the Star Trek universe but it became a travesty. And to be honest if there where an alternative to STO i would have been gone a long time ago.
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I'm with both of you.
And I've been doing this very thing from the beginning. Pre-Beta even.
And ultimately, it doesn't matter how well we can word our concerns or arguments.
Crytpic and now PWE are interested in just one thing where this IP is concerned.
Money. (A certain scene from Miracle on 34th Street comes to mind)
The Cruiser in this game was held back in the interest of appealing to the masses.
No-one wanted to be forced into playing as just one type of ship in order to be effective.
And due to Perpetual dropping the ball so hardcore it gave Cryptic very little time to create active and defined roles for the three classifications of ships let alone an end game.
But that was then, and this is now. They have had the time to address end game, Klingons and ship roles and builds. They haven't.
Its fairly simple too. Imo anyways.
Escorts would have the most rapid repair times, small ship ease of access.(Don't have to run as far or check as many systems;) ) They would also have inherent shield bleed effects due to rapidly cycling their weapon frequencies. Also have an innate Emergency Power to Engines ability that would kick in after HP drops past a certain mark or Weapons or Shields get taken off-line for whatever reason.
Science ships wouldn't be attacking with weapons, but rather have their attacks supplemented by the weapons. Or even use the weapons as a delivery method for the real attack. Imagine having each weapon attack carry the chance to inflict a science debuff.
Shields would not suffer bleed damage from anything other than an escort. And they would have a higher chance to be missed by attacks as they would be carrying a better ECM and ECCM system than other ships.
Cruisers would have slower repair times but be harder to damage those systems in the first place due to their size and soak capabilities.
Have a better shield totals and regeneration numbers, but would suffer from bleed effects more than any other ship class. Weapon cycles would be much slower than on a Escort or Science vessel but would pack a much larger punch per hit than either of the others.
Would also be the only vessel capable of running more than 1 system at a time over a power of 100.
The whole power system would be tweaked so that the baseline for each system is 100, and not 50. Then you as the player would get to choose which system to overcharge or overpower. You can only overpower one system at a time unless you activate an Emergency Situation, then allowing an extra system to be overpowered. Cruisers can have 2 systems overpowered at a time, and up to 3 with the Emergency Situation being active.
Overpowering shields raises your shield numbers drastically, but also increases chances of shield penetration and bleed-through.
Overpowering the weapons increases damage on a % scale but also increases the chances of a blowout(minimum of 1 cycle or a maximum of 4) for one or more weapon hardpoints.
Overpowering the Engines can double your speed, but sustained overpowering risks overloading all systems leaving you dead in space with only Auxiliary to whatever chosen system.
Overpowering Auxiliary slightly increases the performance of all systems, and drastically increases the performance of science based attributes, skills and abilities. But increases the chance that your ship will be struck by enemy weapons or abilities.
Lol... this was already introduced about 25 posts back by myself and yeodred XD. However we all know that this long thread and all the logical arguments both for and against the galaxy and cruisers in general will mean nothing, since PWE will not change the ship or the game just because a bunch of players had a pow wow about it.
Not trying to be a buzzkill, just giving a reality check. The game is as it is. We may all want it to change, hell I am sick of cruisers in general getting the TRIBBLE end of the stick, I love my canon and other ships, and I love my big-@#$ TRIBBLE that can fly around laying down the law with heavy phasers, but guess what, that big-@#$ TRIBBLE flies around laying down the law and then gets shelacked by a passing escort or BoP just for fun.
It's how the game is. I can tank a cube forever in my galaxy (yes, my tier 3 ship can tank elite stf cubes) but I can never kill it. Oh wells. I see escorts kill them and tank them forever. Where in ANYTHING does it say that escorts can solo dreadnaught or battleship class ships? Yeah, smear the smaller ships across 100km of space... but to be able to kill a battleship/dreadnaught/chuck norris class ship without ANY support of ANY kind?
It's come down to this. It's not just the Galaxy that's suffered. It's ALL cruisers. KDF pilots don't really see that, since the vor'cha, neg'var, and tor'kaht ships are amazing cruisers, and can not only take damage but give it back, but hell Cryptic covered it's butt by calling them BATTLEcruisers. So that's fair. But to keep fed cruisers and battleships and even dreadnaughts (yes, we have dreads, not only the galaxy dreadnaught, but the odyssey as well) on the @#$% end of the stick? Can you say bull-@#$%??
No, they can't one shot dominion ships. No they can't take on the entire frakkin fleet on their own. No they can't smear the borg/romulans/klingons/undine/cardassians/the nearby asteroids, and they aren't supposed to be able to do it. They don't wipe the floor with them (much... XP). But don't make it so that they have to sacrifice their damage ability to be able to tank too.
I know this is getting wall of text level, but at this point IDGAF. I have all the cruisers from canon (picked the engi specifically because I got to fly canon ships, or at least modern versions of them (excalibur instead of connie, sorry TOS fans) and have a galaxy, sovy, and stargazer (sorry, never liked the cheyenne class, again, don't hate) and use gal and sov the most) and loved flying them. Until I realized that their damage output blew (and this is the point where the "oh it's not the ship, it's you and your TRIBBLE build" comes into play, well you can blow it out your @#$ cuz it's not me and my TRIBBLE build it IS the fkin ships and the weapons you overblown @#$%) and I realized that my second favorite ship, the USS Defiant and it's class variants were the main damage dealers.
I was ok with that until I realized that they were the ONLY class of ships that could put out consistently high numbers. It was at this point I started to see that not only did my captain class get derped (engineers are not known for damage) and FORCED me to become a healboat, but then realized that I would not only be forced to be a healboat, but I wouldn't be able to hurt much to fill my niche. And that just sucked.
I remember from the shows that when a Galaxy/Sovereign/Dreadnaught showed up, enemies backed off in fear. Now if one of those show up, and you're in an STF, you kinda sigh in an "Oh great, there goes the optional..." way or if you're in PvP you "Oh great, now we have a healer. Yay!". That to me is just plain unacceptable. It should be if one of those warps in in an STF "Now we're talkin, @#$% just got REAL!" or in PvP if one comes you should be going "Alright, let's do this!" and the other team should be going "TRIBBLE, now WE need one". Cuz those were the FLAGSHIPS of the federation fleet. And the Odyssey, hell that thing saves your butt in "Boldly They Rode" (yes it does, it keeps that damn dread off of you while you clean up). And she is the new flagship. But outside of that mission, the oddy is not that great, and outside of the shows, these massive battleships, flagships, esp in this game, are just healers. Healers.
I know a lot of you are going to take my argument/rant, break it up into little pieces, and then burn it down bit by bit, but you all can suck it. I loved Star Trek. All of them. And they way this game has portrayed iconic ships and canon wonders is just horrid. This is the point where you guys say "well ok, quit then". I just might tbh. But this injustice is that. An injustice. These ships MADE the franchise. "Here are the voyages of the starship Enterprise... To boldly go where no man has gone before." Not "Here are the voyages of the starship Enterprise and her cadre of escorts... To boldly go where no man has gone before then be forced to sit in the rear and heal the escorts cuz not everyone is friendly to us." These ships should be the centerpieces of the fleets. They should be the heart and soul of fleets, and able to lay down the law when the need arises.
Ok, this post is too long, I'm gonna stop now...
Well, unless they totally do away with escorts, that will never happen.
So what should we do to convince the devs to change something?
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Well, unless they totally do away with escorts, that will never happen.
Not asking them to do away with escorts. Just asking that they don't make escorts the mainstay of the game.
Cruisers are slow. They can't turn. They are damage sponges. I am ok with that. Their size and shields are supposed to do that. Again, I am fine with this. But most cruisers in canon were flying fortresses. They were a "Fk with me if you dare." kind of ship. And if you dared, you suffered the consequences. In STO, it's a "Fk with me if you dare." in appearance, and if they say "Ok." you're screwed.
All I was thinking of tbh was to make it so that cruisers are a must have for something other than heals. Keep escorts with their massive spike damage, I am ok with that, in fact I think that it's a good idea. You can't have a fleet composed entirely of flying cities after all. Put a few cops in there in their sports cars ffs. But give cruisers something other than a freakin TON of hp and great passive damage resist.
What I was thinking was esp for ships like the Galaxy and Sovy and the Oddy, FLAGSHIPS, or at least the tier 5 versions of them, give them a passive team buff. Make them worth something other than heals.
My idea:
With a flagship class ship, again like the galaxy-r, sovy, oddy, give them a passive that buffs your whole team (self included), say increase all damage output by 10%, and decrease all damage taken by 10%, 10% turn rate increase, also add on 2% crit chance and maybe 10% crit severity and give a passive buff to certain skills (targetting systems, hull integrity, shield systems, and hull repair and shield repair, basically give them extra hp, shields, and faster repair for both, plus some additional accuracy) skills of maybe +5 (like how you get crits on certain DOff missions, you get the +25 buff). I basically took the oddy set buff and modified it XD. Also add on something that will put ALL that hp and defense to use, like if the cruiser drops below X% hp, it's buff deactivates. Make enemies have a reason to shoot at the cruiser (other than to stop heals).
Now I KNOW that a bunch of peeps are going to call "OP NERF NAO!!!". Well you know what? I don't mind being a healboat TOO much... but I would rather have a purpose than to look pretty and support. After all, the flagship of a fleet is supposed to do something other than heal other ships is it not?
Oh, and PLEASE for the love of all things good, give cruisers a class specific weapon, like the Heavy Beam Array suggested so many times. Basically it's a beam array with the DPS of a DHC (so that there are still weapons that are just as strong) but with the firing arc of a beam array. If not the DPS of a DHC, at least something above the 250 at mk XII, since I believe the current is only about 201, and DHCs have a base of 280 at mk XII. OR if you aren't going to give such a high dps, at least make the modifiers higher, since atm, beam arrays have the lowest damage modifiers other than turrets. Actually I take that back, even turrets get a better modifier than beam arrays.
X Heavy Beam Array
(tier 5 cruiser only)
X array
Energy Damage
Firing arc: 235 Degrees (slight reduction due to higher energy levels being more difficult to be kept cohesive)
To Target: 250 X damage (250 dps)
To self: -10 energy when firing other weapons
To targets: X (proc based on energy type)
Passive Buffs (due to weapon type, like DHCs automatically get a +10% crit severity)
5% bonus accuracy
5% crit severity
1% crit chance
This weapon can only be mounted on tier 5 cruisers (fed or klingon, even though it might just be limited to fed ships, since klingons have DHCs, but since the klingons already complain that feds get everything, maybe it should be both factions) and SHOULD cover the damage disparity some, or at least reduce it. But basically it would be a slow firing weapon that fires once per second for a heavy beam hit. Combine that with BFAW and then life gets interesting, but after it wears off, it goes back to being slow firing. Lastly this weapon would have a damage modifier that is much MUCH higher than current beam arrays. Something close to DBBs, but not quite that high.
Hopefully that's somewhat fair or acceptable, but tbh, I feel I am wasting my time, since I already know that the devs won't change anything, and I know that my ideas I just listed above will never appear in game. It's kind disheartening tbh XD
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
So what should we do to convince the devs to change something?
Live long and prosper.
i have long proposed the galaxy R have at least a universal ensign. that would open a huge number of doors, it could be flown like a stat or assault cruiser that has a worse turn rate but more flexibility. you would still proboly be better off going to space dock and swapping between a star and assault, this is hardly something thats overpowered.
the fleet galaxy should have both LTs and ENS station universal. before anyone claims its op, its really more of a false choice, you would be best off with 1 LT tac and 1 LT sci, just like on the bug ship, regent, and fleet vorcha that also basically have false choice universal stations. only in this case you could double up with 2 TL tacs or 2 LT sci, with an ens in ether sci or tactical. this is hardly overpowered compared to an actual universal LTC the galaxy's successor the odyssey has, its still less flexible then that. with this the galaxy would actually be usable, dispute its deep flaws.
the fleet galaxy should at least have a 3rd tac consoles too. the 10th console should be of whatever type you slot 2 of the universal stations as, or if you slot any as eng you would get a 5th eng console.
this setup also has the bonus of being close to canon, the galaxy is supposed to be an extreamly modular ship, universal stations are a good way to represent that. there were science heavy exploration galaxys like the enterprise, and the more tactical galaxys in the dominian war. this proposal works in every way.
I'm not so sure about giving it a Beam Overload III console (maybe with a 2 min timer). do you think that ship would be overpowered with such a console?
I made this proposal a few pages back, I don't think that would be OP since it'd have a longer cooldown and BO is hardly the op ability anayone could whine about. So I'd welcome this change, I also really like dontdrunkimshoot's suggestion conerning the universal slots that would be enough for me.
The problem is the static system that'll never change since MMO players want their classic roles so they know where to min/max. "Escorts" don't escort, they'll always be the most important type of ship due to their killing ability. "Tanks" will always be just that, otherweise they'll be an escort (<.<) and "science" will always be, well, rather useless XD
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I made this proposal a few pages back, I don't think that would be OP since it'd have a longer cooldown and BO is hardly the op ability anayone could whine about. So I'd welcome this change, I also really like dontdrunkimshoot's suggestion conerning the universal slots that would be enough for me.
I hope it's not too strong, i don't want to make it a rival to the Galaxy X phaser lance.
Regarding to my idea about the Mirros Galaxy Class: I know it wouldn't be perfect but i think it would be still better than that boring and toothless Galaxy Class we have now in STO. That "thing" is just unworthy to bear the name and the looks or the Galaxy Class IMO.
The problem is the static system that'll never change since MMO players want their classic roles so they know where to min/max. "Escorts" don't escort, they'll always be the most important type of ship due to their killing ability. "Tanks" will always be just that, otherweise they'll be an escort (<.<) and "science" will always be, well, rather useless XD
That's what i was afraid of since i first heard of a Star Trek MMO. My biggest fear is that some people are taking this concept for real and starting to tink that Star Trek ships arereally work that way.
I can already hear them screaming "where are the Escorts ?!?" as soon a new Star Trek series comes out....
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Most star trek fans who play and come to play this game WANT to fly this ship
However they soon find out how poor it is , How NOT like it is soposed to be and they generally lose interest in the game as a whole because they cant play the game in the ship they want.
The Galaxy is a Battleship , way too much cannon supports that ,thats what the fans have saw and know, No amount of BS from cryptic will change there minds
So customers leave spending little or no money
The games name starts with "Star Trek" the most popular ship to many fans is the Gimped galaxy class which requirees a expert player in a VERY narrow skill set to use to any advantage at all.
This is BAD for buisness, This loses MONEY to the company, Hardcore pvpers would fly a colonial bread sack with warp nacells and a klingon boom section out front and be happy if it gives them the power and buffs they want. A Fans taste is more specific
Cryptic should be more sensitive to that if they wish to remain in buisness
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
You are beating middle of the pack, daily driver bikes in DRAG races, not much else with a 4,100 pound car with 650 hp. Giving benefit of the doubt, that's probably mid 11's on a good day with an aggressive rear axle ratio IF (then no 186 top speed on an "older" cars aerodynamics and an engine revving lower than 8,000 rpm). Most run of the mill "sport bikes" run around there, get a stock 'busa and run into the nines stock.
Then comes the stopping or cornering, unless your "old car" is a Ferrari and literally nothing but 4,100 pounds suspension and engine you're not braking or cornering all that well.
It was not an average bike because it was modified for drag racing at the track. We had local track in our town that he used alot. I stopped going to the track because i no longer had the tires for the track. I have yet to find the top end sped of my car, but i don't have the road to find out because in the part of Texas where I lived traffic gets stupid so i didn't risk it.
I didn't say anything about a Hiyabusa. Thats a top end bike that goes over 200mph, why are you trying to comare something that was not in ther story. You were not there at my race and you can't go judging and asumming what when on. My car was very aerodynamic and has a stock rear end(2:73). You are stupid if you try to street race and try to take corners at high speed. That's how so many dumb TRIBBLE kids crash thier cars or kill themselves, thinking they have competition suspenstions. I would not of race him around corners at that speed ,because I'm not going to be responsible for his death if he crashes.
i have long proposed the galaxy R have at least a universal ensign. that would open a huge number of doors, it could be flown like a stat or assault cruiser that has a worse turn rate but more flexibility. you would still proboly be better off going to space dock and swapping between a star and assault, this is hardly something thats overpowered.
the fleet galaxy should have both LTs and ENS station universal. before anyone claims its op, its really more of a false choice, you would be best off with 1 LT tac and 1 LT sci, just like on the bug ship, regent, and fleet vorcha that also basically have false choice universal stations. only in this case you could double up with 2 TL tacs or 2 LT sci, with an ens in ether sci or tactical. this is hardly overpowered compared to an actual universal LTC the galaxy's successor the odyssey has, its still less flexible then that. with this the galaxy would actually be usable, dispute its deep flaws.
the fleet galaxy should at least have a 3rd tac consoles too. the 10th console should be of whatever type you slot 2 of the universal stations as, or if you slot any as eng you would get a 5th eng console.
this setup also has the bonus of being close to canon, the galaxy is supposed to be an extreamly modular ship, universal stations are a good way to represent that. there were science heavy exploration galaxys like the enterprise, and the more tactical galaxys in the dominian war. this proposal works in every way.
Including an universal console to (all) cruisers would be acceptable.
It was not an average bike because it was modified for drag racing at the track. We had local track in our town that he used alot. I stopped going to the track because i no longer had the tires for the track. I have yet to find the top end sped of my car, but i don't have the road to find out because in the part of Texas where I lived traffic gets stupid so i didn't risk it.
I didn't say anything about a Hiyabusa. Thats a top end bike that goes over 200mph, why are you trying to comare something that was not in ther story. You were not there at my race and you can't go judging and asumming what when on. My car was very aerodynamic and has a stock rear end(2:73). You are stupid if you try to street race and try to take corners at high speed. That's how so many dumb TRIBBLE kids crash thier cars or kill themselves, thinking they have competition suspenstions. I would not of race him around corners at that speed ,because I'm not going to be responsible for his death if he crashes.
If you read all of my post better you would better understand what I was saying. I used the Hiyabusa as a point of reference. Being that I have been working on/around cars all of my life, I didn't need to be there to have an understanding of engineering and physics and compare it to what you have said.
2.73's combined with older transmissions (with fairly tall gear ratios) on a 4,100 pound car doesn't lead to overwhelming acceleration when drag racing, even with 650 hp. Either you have more more power than you think you do, or you just aren't that fast.
Any bike (or car) can be "modified" for drag racing. There's modded everything out there and much of them aren't that fast. You can have a Honda 500cc bike be tweaked up for the track and still only be marginal for real racing and have drag cars pull away from them. And then theres always the cars/bikes that have poor drivers or sandbag for test and tune.
My main argument is that the info you gave, while tying it to an argument for modding the Galaxy to be made into some superior turning and running starship, doesn't work for someone who has even a basic understand of what you are talking about.
I made this proposal a few pages back, I don't think that would be OP since it'd have a longer cooldown and BO is hardly the op ability anayone could whine about. So I'd welcome this change, I also really like dontdrunkimshoot's suggestion conerning the universal slots that would be enough for me.
The problem is the static system that'll never change since MMO players want their classic roles so they know where to min/max. "Escorts" don't escort, they'll always be the most important type of ship due to their killing ability. "Tanks" will always be just that, otherweise they'll be an escort (<.<) and "science" will always be, well, rather useless XD
But having a BO3 console wont help cruiser guys who use cannons or go for heavy hitting torpedoes. At that point just fight for a Lt.com tac boff.
But having a BO3 console wont help cruiser guys who use cannons or go for heavy hitting torpedoes. At that point just fight for a Lt.com tac boff.
No, i think a "Beam overload III" Console which is SOLEY for Galaxy Class ships would be much better IMHO.
It would reflect the huge Phaser Array of these ships.
We're talking about a console that comes with the "mirror Galaxy class", a ship that already has a Lt. Cmdr tactical BOFF station. (BOFF&Console Layout of the D'Kora)
And since this Mirror universe ship can't use Heavy cannons like the Ferengi D'Kora i think a "Beam Overload III" would be a sufficient tradeoff.
Or do you want to propose giving that ship TWO lt. Cmdr tactical BOFF slots?
Thank you for reading.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Do you believe anyone would actually waste a console slot for a crappy beam overload console ?
I would just give it a universal lt commander and call it a day. It would still have a crappy console layout, but this way nobody could complain. Those who like it as it is can keep their setup, everybody else would be free to experiment a bit.
Do you believe anyone would actually waste a console slot for a crappy beam overload console ?
I would just give it a universal lt commander and call it a day. It would still have a crappy console layout, but this way nobody could complain. Those who like it as it is can keep their setup, everybody else would be free to experiment a bit.
We're talking about a console that comes with the "mirror Galaxy class", a ship that already has a Lt. Cmdr tactical BOFF station. (BOFF&Console Layout of the D'Kora)
And since this Mirror universe ship can't use Heavy cannons like the Ferengi D'Kora i think a "Beam Overload III" would be a sufficient tradeoff.
No, i think a "Beam overload III" Console which is SOLEY for Galaxy Class ships would be much better IMHO.
It would reflect the huge Phaser Array of these ships.
Btw: this "BO3" console could also be a "device", of course.
Thank you for reading.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Comments
Oh yes, I'd like that. Just the layout, everything else is fine (no dual cannons and stuff).
It's not what I expect from a Gal, but seeing it outgunned by even a Ferengi marauder is too much for me
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Lol, love it.
First you tell me to do more research, and when I come back with numbers and legitimate arguments you dismiss them outright.
Oh he knows.
We ran these threads into the hundreds of pages with Catamount, Ex-Astris, MajorD and a few others.
Sadly those threads have all been locked and you can't gain access to them anymore even you happened to still have them bookmarked after all these years ><
ya i remember all those names. ive been posting what we all would agree are the facts behind all this stuff here for more then 2 years now, alone and without backup, in the face of the most vitriolic fan boy rants i have ever encountered. ya all the old threads here are gone, a gal vs sov thread i bookmarked i cant access anymore.
Ok, its old now. Go and find the footage of a galaxy one shot-ing a dominion ship, any dominion ship, I dare you. If you can do that I will change my entire stance and support this argument that would break the balance of ship design across the entire game. Until then everything you say is vapor, you have to desperately cling on to your claims by stating the odyssey wasn't owned during the Dominion war, but it was still undeniably owned by the dominion.
I looked up the people who wrote it, and its a pretty impressive list. But canon is always utterly defined by a show, the thing that brings in the most fans, the thing that establishes an idea. These same technical advisors were in on all the times the galaxy class just did an average or plain bad job at fighting.
I am dumb founded by you how you guys love to make this argument that the galaxy phasers are better, but don't even have any pseudo canon data on the sovy phasers. Someone who is an expert within the guaranteed canon, no matter what, compared the two vessels from a combat perspective and put the sovy on top. It is the most legitimate piece of data you can put in on the sovys side of the comparison.
I don't know why its so hard for you guys to comprehend that for the first time in Star Fleet history they were allowed to make vessels specifically for war. They may be given names that alude to a slightly different role, but that fact is true. It makes perfect sense that the new generation of ships made during this time are better fighters, you guys are literally implying that the star fleet core of engineers are stupid. "Hey guys, lets make a new flag ship, designed for the hard battles ahead, but lets not make it as strong as the last flag ship that would be silly."
Show me the page in a technical manual with Sovy phaser info and I might even denounce the expert Geordi, and I will admit that you guys make a good argument.
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You already have the data.
That blue wall of text as you called it has it in it.
That is how all phaser arrays work. Regardless of what class of ship they are equipped on. So if you go and watch all the movies where the Ent E fires her phasers, supposedly at full strength. Then go and look at episodes like Q Who which has some of the Ent D strongest shots, you can see the SDE at work.
Fact of the matter is that a Galaxy has more emitters to pass along power than the Sovereign does. She has consistently demonstrated combat capabilities that are superior to anything else shown on screen by Star Fleet.
That isn't conjecture, thats just how it is on screen.
As for anything else I can say. There is nothing to be said. You are set in your belief that you are correct and that nothing we say will ever be even remotely true. Any further argument or debate with you is pointless.
(looking into the future I see some remark about us running away after being confronted with our own obvious falsehoods:rolleyes:)
hes pretty much incoherent at this point. is geordi dropping a line that the newest class of ship is the most advanced supposed to surprise anyone? of course the newest ship is the most advanced, but advanced =/= most powerful. is the newest, most advanced shuttle more powerful then a galaxy class too?
starfleet already had a perfectly good battleship that was less then a decade old when the sovereign was being made, thats why the sovereign isn't a comparable size to the galaxy. old mid sized ships like the excelsior needed replacing, thats the role the sov filled. its a new cutting edge heavy cruiser, it is half the size of the federations largest and most powerful battleship, the galaxy. they don't compete with each other at some top tier.
the sovereign phaser arrays are type 12, they are a newer generation emitter, but they operate exactly the same as any other phaser arrays. there is a figure quoted for type 10 to have an output of 5.1, and type 12 having an output of 7.2. well, according to the tech manual the galaxy has 200 emitters in its largest array.
200x 5.1= 1020.
i'll be extreamly generous, and say the sov's longest array has half as many emitters, even though its less then half as long.
100x7.2=720
its not even close. and it would only be a mater of time before type 12 were installed on a galaxy. what do these numbers mean exactly? who knows. but it looks like the ratio between each of thier best shots to me.
http://ebookbrowse.com/star-trek-ds9-technical-manual-197-pages-1998-pdf-d127562
Nowhere inside will you find technical stats on the sovereign class. The mathematical equation you provide on phaser power comparison is incomplete. The only mention of a comparison between the two ships in canon puts the sovereign class on top in overall combat ability. Trying to insinuate that Geordi was talking about anything else is silly, they were trying to convince Picard to go into battle. Geordi would not encourage this with such language unless he knew they had the tactical edge over all other ships.
Good day.
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I think it should keep the Saucer Seperation console, i think it wouldn't be a big problem, since it wouldn't be able to use Heavy Cannons.
I'm not so sure about giving it a Beam Overload III console (maybe with a 2 min timer). do you think that ship would be overpowered with such a console?
Anyway, i think the Lockbox ship would still be superior, but not as resounding superior as it is now.
I think a BOFF and Console layout would work for a "Mirror Universe" Galaxy Class.
The "real" galaxy Class wouldn't be affected at all, all "nay" sayers could flay the "tank" Galaxy Class, everyone else could fly a ship with much more "punch" and cryptic would make a lot of $$.
To be honest, i think it would be a win - win for everyone.
I think it was a really cruel joke to introduce such a superior Galor and D'kora, but leaving the Galaxy so weak.
Live long and prosper.
The Galaxy X has a superior Beam Overload and its not considered OP.
So go ahead and toss in the BO III.
No real reason to keep the Saucer Separation console or even as an ability.
Buff its HP along with all the other T5 ships to an equal value of those from the C-Store and Fleet variants.
Increase its turn speed to 8, buff the Sovereigns as well to 9 or 10.
Modify the RCS consoles to have a depreciating modifier, if they don't already.
Introduce new weapon variants.
DHC and HC are already restricted weapon types, exclusive to certain types of ships Fed side. So why not do it again?
This time introduce Heavy Beam Arrays that can only equipped on larger hulls such as Cruisers and select larger Science Vessels.
Of course this then means that Cruisers in general may be to OP seeing as you just buffed the entire Cruiser line by doing the above. So! /shrug
If thats the case, maybe a Beam Overload II console would be ok instead.
I don't want the "mirror" Galaxy Class be turned into a Galaxy X, i was proposing a tactical focused Galaxy Class that can do some serious damage without being over powered.
(If you didn't read my original suggestion: I wanted to propose a "mirror" Galaxy Class featuring the BOFF & Console Layout of the Ferengi D'Kora.)
I am all for that. Maybe give those Heavy Beam arrays a narrow fireing arc like the DHCs but to the ships sides. So they are mainly boardsiding waepons. What are you talking about?!?
Live long and prosper.
Lol... this was already introduced about 25 posts back by myself and yeodred XD. However we all know that this long thread and all the logical arguments both for and against the galaxy and cruisers in general will mean nothing, since PWE will not change the ship or the game just because a bunch of players had a pow wow about it.
Not trying to be a buzzkill, just giving a reality check. The game is as it is. We may all want it to change, hell I am sick of cruisers in general getting the TRIBBLE end of the stick, I love my canon and other ships, and I love my big-@#$ TRIBBLE that can fly around laying down the law with heavy phasers, but guess what, that big-@#$ TRIBBLE flies around laying down the law and then gets shelacked by a passing escort or BoP just for fun.
It's how the game is. I can tank a cube forever in my galaxy (yes, my tier 3 ship can tank elite stf cubes) but I can never kill it. Oh wells. I see escorts kill them and tank them forever. Where in ANYTHING does it say that escorts can solo dreadnaught or battleship class ships? Yeah, smear the smaller ships across 100km of space... but to be able to kill a battleship/dreadnaught/chuck norris class ship without ANY support of ANY kind?
It's come down to this. It's not just the Galaxy that's suffered. It's ALL cruisers. KDF pilots don't really see that, since the vor'cha, neg'var, and tor'kaht ships are amazing cruisers, and can not only take damage but give it back, but hell Cryptic covered it's butt by calling them BATTLEcruisers. So that's fair. But to keep fed cruisers and battleships and even dreadnaughts (yes, we have dreads, not only the galaxy dreadnaught, but the odyssey as well) on the @#$% end of the stick? Can you say bull-@#$%??
No, they can't one shot dominion ships. No they can't take on the entire frakkin fleet on their own. No they can't smear the borg/romulans/klingons/undine/cardassians/the nearby asteroids, and they aren't supposed to be able to do it. They don't wipe the floor with them (much... XP). But don't make it so that they have to sacrifice their damage ability to be able to tank too.
I know this is getting wall of text level, but at this point IDGAF. I have all the cruisers from canon (picked the engi specifically because I got to fly canon ships, or at least modern versions of them (excalibur instead of connie, sorry TOS fans) and have a galaxy, sovy, and stargazer (sorry, never liked the cheyenne class, again, don't hate) and use gal and sov the most) and loved flying them. Until I realized that their damage output blew (and this is the point where the "oh it's not the ship, it's you and your TRIBBLE build" comes into play, well you can blow it out your @#$ cuz it's not me and my TRIBBLE build it IS the fkin ships and the weapons you overblown @#$%) and I realized that my second favorite ship, the USS Defiant and it's class variants were the main damage dealers.
I was ok with that until I realized that they were the ONLY class of ships that could put out consistently high numbers. It was at this point I started to see that not only did my captain class get derped (engineers are not known for damage) and FORCED me to become a healboat, but then realized that I would not only be forced to be a healboat, but I wouldn't be able to hurt much to fill my niche. And that just sucked.
I remember from the shows that when a Galaxy/Sovereign/Dreadnaught showed up, enemies backed off in fear. Now if one of those show up, and you're in an STF, you kinda sigh in an "Oh great, there goes the optional..." way or if you're in PvP you "Oh great, now we have a healer. Yay!". That to me is just plain unacceptable. It should be if one of those warps in in an STF "Now we're talkin, @#$% just got REAL!" or in PvP if one comes you should be going "Alright, let's do this!" and the other team should be going "TRIBBLE, now WE need one". Cuz those were the FLAGSHIPS of the federation fleet. And the Odyssey, hell that thing saves your butt in "Boldly They Rode" (yes it does, it keeps that damn dread off of you while you clean up). And she is the new flagship. But outside of that mission, the oddy is not that great, and outside of the shows, these massive battleships, flagships, esp in this game, are just healers. Healers.
I know a lot of you are going to take my argument/rant, break it up into little pieces, and then burn it down bit by bit, but you all can suck it. I loved Star Trek. All of them. And they way this game has portrayed iconic ships and canon wonders is just horrid. This is the point where you guys say "well ok, quit then". I just might tbh. But this injustice is that. An injustice. These ships MADE the franchise. "Here are the voyages of the starship Enterprise... To boldly go where no man has gone before." Not "Here are the voyages of the starship Enterprise and her cadre of escorts... To boldly go where no man has gone before then be forced to sit in the rear and heal the escorts cuz not everyone is friendly to us." These ships should be the centerpieces of the fleets. They should be the heart and soul of fleets, and able to lay down the law when the need arises.
Ok, this post is too long, I'm gonna stop now...
It's good to be not the only one feeling like this.
It's the devs who don't care about making a good Star Trek game. With STO they have made their own twisted Star Trek game, which only reflects the name Star Trek.
Like some other people here on the forums the devs see STO mainly as a MMO, i think thats the difference between us and them.
We want STO to be a Star Trek game and not some weird Trek parody.
They turned Star Trek ships upside down, making small specialzed ships much more powerful than 10x bigger ships that where the backbone and heart of Starfleet.
Maybe the devs thought Star Trek would be boring, maybe they wanted to make a Star Wars game, i don't care.
STO is a StarTrek game and i expect it to be like one.
I don't blame the devs maybe they can't do it better, i blame the owners of the Star Trek ip.
They seemingly don't care for anything else than releasing a movie every couple of years (or even less frequent).
I have seen other games, like Bridge commander, Starfleet Command I - III, Armada I + II even Final Unitiy. NONE of them had escorts that much overpowered and Cruisers that weak. I just don't get it how they have come to the very idea to create ships like they did.
Sorry i don't want to rant about STO anymore i am just tired and i already did that more than enough.
You are right they won't change anything and most players seem not to care.....
Personally i am just sad that ships in STO ended up like this. It could easily have been a great reflection of the Star Trek universe but it became a travesty. And to be honest if there where an alternative to STO i would have been gone a long time ago.
Live long and prosper.
And I've been doing this very thing from the beginning. Pre-Beta even.
And ultimately, it doesn't matter how well we can word our concerns or arguments.
Crytpic and now PWE are interested in just one thing where this IP is concerned.
Money. (A certain scene from Miracle on 34th Street comes to mind)
The Cruiser in this game was held back in the interest of appealing to the masses.
No-one wanted to be forced into playing as just one type of ship in order to be effective.
And due to Perpetual dropping the ball so hardcore it gave Cryptic very little time to create active and defined roles for the three classifications of ships let alone an end game.
But that was then, and this is now. They have had the time to address end game, Klingons and ship roles and builds. They haven't.
Its fairly simple too. Imo anyways.
Escorts would have the most rapid repair times, small ship ease of access.(Don't have to run as far or check as many systems;) ) They would also have inherent shield bleed effects due to rapidly cycling their weapon frequencies. Also have an innate Emergency Power to Engines ability that would kick in after HP drops past a certain mark or Weapons or Shields get taken off-line for whatever reason.
Science ships wouldn't be attacking with weapons, but rather have their attacks supplemented by the weapons. Or even use the weapons as a delivery method for the real attack. Imagine having each weapon attack carry the chance to inflict a science debuff.
Shields would not suffer bleed damage from anything other than an escort. And they would have a higher chance to be missed by attacks as they would be carrying a better ECM and ECCM system than other ships.
Cruisers would have slower repair times but be harder to damage those systems in the first place due to their size and soak capabilities.
Have a better shield totals and regeneration numbers, but would suffer from bleed effects more than any other ship class. Weapon cycles would be much slower than on a Escort or Science vessel but would pack a much larger punch per hit than either of the others.
Would also be the only vessel capable of running more than 1 system at a time over a power of 100.
The whole power system would be tweaked so that the baseline for each system is 100, and not 50. Then you as the player would get to choose which system to overcharge or overpower. You can only overpower one system at a time unless you activate an Emergency Situation, then allowing an extra system to be overpowered. Cruisers can have 2 systems overpowered at a time, and up to 3 with the Emergency Situation being active.
Overpowering shields raises your shield numbers drastically, but also increases chances of shield penetration and bleed-through.
Overpowering the weapons increases damage on a % scale but also increases the chances of a blowout(minimum of 1 cycle or a maximum of 4) for one or more weapon hardpoints.
Overpowering the Engines can double your speed, but sustained overpowering risks overloading all systems leaving you dead in space with only Auxiliary to whatever chosen system.
Overpowering Auxiliary slightly increases the performance of all systems, and drastically increases the performance of science based attributes, skills and abilities. But increases the chance that your ship will be struck by enemy weapons or abilities.
Well, unless they totally do away with escorts, that will never happen.
Live long and prosper.
Not asking them to do away with escorts. Just asking that they don't make escorts the mainstay of the game.
Cruisers are slow. They can't turn. They are damage sponges. I am ok with that. Their size and shields are supposed to do that. Again, I am fine with this. But most cruisers in canon were flying fortresses. They were a "Fk with me if you dare." kind of ship. And if you dared, you suffered the consequences. In STO, it's a "Fk with me if you dare." in appearance, and if they say "Ok." you're screwed.
All I was thinking of tbh was to make it so that cruisers are a must have for something other than heals. Keep escorts with their massive spike damage, I am ok with that, in fact I think that it's a good idea. You can't have a fleet composed entirely of flying cities after all. Put a few cops in there in their sports cars ffs. But give cruisers something other than a freakin TON of hp and great passive damage resist.
What I was thinking was esp for ships like the Galaxy and Sovy and the Oddy, FLAGSHIPS, or at least the tier 5 versions of them, give them a passive team buff. Make them worth something other than heals.
My idea:
With a flagship class ship, again like the galaxy-r, sovy, oddy, give them a passive that buffs your whole team (self included), say increase all damage output by 10%, and decrease all damage taken by 10%, 10% turn rate increase, also add on 2% crit chance and maybe 10% crit severity and give a passive buff to certain skills (targetting systems, hull integrity, shield systems, and hull repair and shield repair, basically give them extra hp, shields, and faster repair for both, plus some additional accuracy) skills of maybe +5 (like how you get crits on certain DOff missions, you get the +25 buff). I basically took the oddy set buff and modified it XD. Also add on something that will put ALL that hp and defense to use, like if the cruiser drops below X% hp, it's buff deactivates. Make enemies have a reason to shoot at the cruiser (other than to stop heals).
Now I KNOW that a bunch of peeps are going to call "OP NERF NAO!!!". Well you know what? I don't mind being a healboat TOO much... but I would rather have a purpose than to look pretty and support. After all, the flagship of a fleet is supposed to do something other than heal other ships is it not?
Oh, and PLEASE for the love of all things good, give cruisers a class specific weapon, like the Heavy Beam Array suggested so many times. Basically it's a beam array with the DPS of a DHC (so that there are still weapons that are just as strong) but with the firing arc of a beam array. If not the DPS of a DHC, at least something above the 250 at mk XII, since I believe the current is only about 201, and DHCs have a base of 280 at mk XII. OR if you aren't going to give such a high dps, at least make the modifiers higher, since atm, beam arrays have the lowest damage modifiers other than turrets. Actually I take that back, even turrets get a better modifier than beam arrays.
X Heavy Beam Array
(tier 5 cruiser only)
X array
Energy Damage
Firing arc: 235 Degrees (slight reduction due to higher energy levels being more difficult to be kept cohesive)
To Target: 250 X damage (250 dps)
To self: -10 energy when firing other weapons
To targets: X (proc based on energy type)
Passive Buffs (due to weapon type, like DHCs automatically get a +10% crit severity)
5% bonus accuracy
5% crit severity
1% crit chance
This weapon can only be mounted on tier 5 cruisers (fed or klingon, even though it might just be limited to fed ships, since klingons have DHCs, but since the klingons already complain that feds get everything, maybe it should be both factions) and SHOULD cover the damage disparity some, or at least reduce it. But basically it would be a slow firing weapon that fires once per second for a heavy beam hit. Combine that with BFAW and then life gets interesting, but after it wears off, it goes back to being slow firing. Lastly this weapon would have a damage modifier that is much MUCH higher than current beam arrays. Something close to DBBs, but not quite that high.
Hopefully that's somewhat fair or acceptable, but tbh, I feel I am wasting my time, since I already know that the devs won't change anything, and I know that my ideas I just listed above will never appear in game. It's kind disheartening tbh XD
i have long proposed the galaxy R have at least a universal ensign. that would open a huge number of doors, it could be flown like a stat or assault cruiser that has a worse turn rate but more flexibility. you would still proboly be better off going to space dock and swapping between a star and assault, this is hardly something thats overpowered.
the fleet galaxy should have both LTs and ENS station universal. before anyone claims its op, its really more of a false choice, you would be best off with 1 LT tac and 1 LT sci, just like on the bug ship, regent, and fleet vorcha that also basically have false choice universal stations. only in this case you could double up with 2 TL tacs or 2 LT sci, with an ens in ether sci or tactical. this is hardly overpowered compared to an actual universal LTC the galaxy's successor the odyssey has, its still less flexible then that. with this the galaxy would actually be usable, dispute its deep flaws.
the fleet galaxy should at least have a 3rd tac consoles too. the 10th console should be of whatever type you slot 2 of the universal stations as, or if you slot any as eng you would get a 5th eng console.
this setup also has the bonus of being close to canon, the galaxy is supposed to be an extreamly modular ship, universal stations are a good way to represent that. there were science heavy exploration galaxys like the enterprise, and the more tactical galaxys in the dominian war. this proposal works in every way.
I made this proposal a few pages back, I don't think that would be OP since it'd have a longer cooldown and BO is hardly the op ability anayone could whine about. So I'd welcome this change, I also really like dontdrunkimshoot's suggestion conerning the universal slots that would be enough for me.
The problem is the static system that'll never change since MMO players want their classic roles so they know where to min/max. "Escorts" don't escort, they'll always be the most important type of ship due to their killing ability. "Tanks" will always be just that, otherweise they'll be an escort (<.<) and "science" will always be, well, rather useless XD
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Regarding to my idea about the Mirros Galaxy Class: I know it wouldn't be perfect but i think it would be still better than that boring and toothless Galaxy Class we have now in STO. That "thing" is just unworthy to bear the name and the looks or the Galaxy Class IMO.
That's what i was afraid of since i first heard of a Star Trek MMO. My biggest fear is that some people are taking this concept for real and starting to tink that Star Trek ships arereally work that way.
I can already hear them screaming "where are the Escorts ?!?" as soon a new Star Trek series comes out....
Live long and prosper.
Most star trek fans who play and come to play this game WANT to fly this ship
However they soon find out how poor it is , How NOT like it is soposed to be and they generally lose interest in the game as a whole because they cant play the game in the ship they want.
The Galaxy is a Battleship , way too much cannon supports that ,thats what the fans have saw and know, No amount of BS from cryptic will change there minds
So customers leave spending little or no money
The games name starts with "Star Trek" the most popular ship to many fans is the Gimped galaxy class which requirees a expert player in a VERY narrow skill set to use to any advantage at all.
This is BAD for buisness, This loses MONEY to the company, Hardcore pvpers would fly a colonial bread sack with warp nacells and a klingon boom section out front and be happy if it gives them the power and buffs they want. A Fans taste is more specific
Cryptic should be more sensitive to that if they wish to remain in buisness
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
It was not an average bike because it was modified for drag racing at the track. We had local track in our town that he used alot. I stopped going to the track because i no longer had the tires for the track. I have yet to find the top end sped of my car, but i don't have the road to find out because in the part of Texas where I lived traffic gets stupid so i didn't risk it.
I didn't say anything about a Hiyabusa. Thats a top end bike that goes over 200mph, why are you trying to comare something that was not in ther story. You were not there at my race and you can't go judging and asumming what when on. My car was very aerodynamic and has a stock rear end(2:73). You are stupid if you try to street race and try to take corners at high speed. That's how so many dumb TRIBBLE kids crash thier cars or kill themselves, thinking they have competition suspenstions. I would not of race him around corners at that speed ,because I'm not going to be responsible for his death if he crashes.
Including an universal console to (all) cruisers would be acceptable.
If you read all of my post better you would better understand what I was saying. I used the Hiyabusa as a point of reference. Being that I have been working on/around cars all of my life, I didn't need to be there to have an understanding of engineering and physics and compare it to what you have said.
2.73's combined with older transmissions (with fairly tall gear ratios) on a 4,100 pound car doesn't lead to overwhelming acceleration when drag racing, even with 650 hp. Either you have more more power than you think you do, or you just aren't that fast.
Any bike (or car) can be "modified" for drag racing. There's modded everything out there and much of them aren't that fast. You can have a Honda 500cc bike be tweaked up for the track and still only be marginal for real racing and have drag cars pull away from them. And then theres always the cars/bikes that have poor drivers or sandbag for test and tune.
My main argument is that the info you gave, while tying it to an argument for modding the Galaxy to be made into some superior turning and running starship, doesn't work for someone who has even a basic understand of what you are talking about.
But having a BO3 console wont help cruiser guys who use cannons or go for heavy hitting torpedoes. At that point just fight for a Lt.com tac boff.
It would reflect the huge Phaser Array of these ships.
We're talking about a console that comes with the "mirror Galaxy class", a ship that already has a Lt. Cmdr tactical BOFF station. (BOFF&Console Layout of the D'Kora)
And since this Mirror universe ship can't use Heavy cannons like the Ferengi D'Kora i think a "Beam Overload III" would be a sufficient tradeoff.
Or do you want to propose giving that ship TWO lt. Cmdr tactical BOFF slots?
Thank you for reading.
I would just give it a universal lt commander and call it a day. It would still have a crappy console layout, but this way nobody could complain. Those who like it as it is can keep their setup, everybody else would be free to experiment a bit.
Btw: this "BO3" console could also be a "device", of course.
Thank you for reading.