But the thing is, an alliance is very different than actually joining. Many Klingons would have no problem being allies with the Federation, and some would even welcome it as we saw throughout TNG and DS9.
But, while they would work with allies they deemed honourable, Klingons being Klingons, I don't think they would ever serve under someone else's banner, much less willingly.
Agree, they may occasionally ally with the UFP but they will unlikely ever join them and they're Romulan co-horts.
But the thing is, an alliance is very different than actually joining. Many Klingons would have no problem being allies with the Federation, and some would even welcome it as we saw throughout TNG and DS9.
But, while they would work with allies they deemed honourable, Klingons being Klingons, I don't think they would ever serve under someone else's banner, much less willingly.
So they'll always be flawed? I think it's missing the point more than a hare. Trek kinda glamorizes the idea of the Federation to the point where anyone who wouldn't join is portrayed as having something wrong with them. Or the Federation has something wrong with them they need to get past in order to make that work.
The ideal is pretty much everyone as a member and I wouldn't blink at a distant future where the Borg Queen and Undine are serving on the Federation council.
Dont invoke sources who cannot be verified. If you have a link to a specific statement from a specific person, then feel free to share it. But sweeping generalizations like that dont actually prove anything.
A sweeping generalization is necessary because it applies to everyone, in my estimation.
I would be STUNNED if any of the recurring TV writers didn't see it as inevitable. Flabbergasted.
I think Ron Moore would be the holdout who would say it would be long and difficult. Virtually everyone else would probably launch any post-TNG show with it already having happened.
Once again, if you have a link to a specific quote from a specific writer saying what you claim, just link to it. But without that, talking about what you think they think is meaningless.
I am saying it is obvious. I have not heard every writer say it.
I have heard specific writers say it, in person and via e-mail.
The totality of what Star Trek is about is the Federation being a perfect society that everyone joins. The difference of opinions between writers might vary on how perfect it is but the point is definitely out there that it's more perfect and improving towards perfection... which is why the Borg lines about seeking perfection are even there, as a play on the whole idea of the Federation.
Now, you can argue that Roddenberry's thoughts were flawed... but I think within an IP, flaws are meant to be doubled down on and compounded, not eased over or made more realistic.
I think it takes a divergent view of the Federation from the intended view as perfect or almost perfect and infinitely pluralistic and inclusive... or a view that the Klingons are irreparably damaged... to rule out the two unifying at some future point.
I don't think STO is the place for that, largely because it would involve backpedaling through a half-finished story or plowing ahead through more story than STO can adequately deliver to get there.
I honestly could see the Romulans, Klingons, Ferengi, and the Cardassians ending up part of the Federation in the future.
With Klingons, the Federation working with the Klingon code of honor and their religion. (Given Worf's work with the Federation and in STO, some Houses joined the Federation, this shows it's very possible).
The Romulans participating in Vulcan reunification would eventually be part of the Federation. (In STO, we already got colonies petitioning to join the Federation).
Cardassians are in the process of integration, just got to work around Cardassian pride.
Ferengi, like Klingons, would have to work around their religion.
If STO is fully regarded as canon, I could see the events of 2409 being more or less the first steps leading to them joining the Federation. And with Romulans from the future trying to stop the Federation from forming, could mean the Empire is still existing (though smaller) or they are already members and a faction is trying to stop it. So by the 26th-27th century, this might become a reality.
Earlier you made a post saying that every star trek writer you knew of thought the KDF should join the Feds. I'm simply asking for some verification of that claim. If you cant provide any, there is no reason to get upset.
I tend to get vexed when asked for verification online because I use the web as a "no citation" zone to get away from things like scholarly writing, where I have to cite everything. Citing sources is immensely annoying to me because it's dangerously close to work. To me, it feels like I'm at a bar with friends and someone comes along and hands me a shovel and asks me to go out ditch digging.
That said, "Heart of Glory" and "Samaritan Snare" in TNG both indicate Klingons already joined. And people have to use mental gymnastics to get away from that. The bottom line there is that it was an inconsistency created when writers changed their minds. Roddenberry wanted them in but none of his new villains worked as well as the old ones. Worf was added to TNG to showcase this and his backstory was the result of a lot of hammy backpedaling to get Klingons back as villains.
In Enterprise, they were stated as members by the 26th century.
I spoke with David Gerrold about it once. He's the co-writer of the TNG series bible along with DC Fontana (in addition to being a TOS writer) and his exact words were that he considered it "inevitable."
Roddenberry's point on the matter isn't that hard to understand when you consider that the version of Trek he controlled the most tightly already had the Klingons as a member... and that the Klingons were created to parallel the USSR on a show where they had a proud Soviet bridge officer. (And that's really how Chekov was conceived.)
Most of the other witers' standpoint seems clear in that they made a point of taking the enemies of the last show and making them closely integrated allies in the next one.
I think there's a lot of fan dissonance about this point and the Klingons in general, who I don't think most of the first two generations of writers ever fully understood people celebrating or identifying with.
But you have to be at odds with the idea of the Federation as the universal ideal or have a VERY dark image of the Klingons not to see them getting together.
I think it would probably come off shoddy in STO. But my qualm there is with STO's ability to execute it, not with the validity of the idea. There really couldn't be anything more authentically Trek than a future where all the Federation's enemies join up under a single banner. (That single banner may have a different name. But it would fundamentally end up being the body whose flagship is the Enterprise.)
Even if Klingons eventually become "members" and not "allies" of the federation...that is pretty far off... and CANNOT happen anytime soon.. you ppl seem to forget that the KDF and Fed are at WAR right now... you just dont kiss and make up and become fast friends right off the coat tails of a massive WAR. Sorry but its just not happening.
Maybe a few hundred years down the line, I know that Klingons are supposed to become members in several "possible" futures, noted during several flashback, time jumping, and "what if" episodes but if one of those alternate realities, or timelines IS the future, it is not going to happen right after war, maybe 100 years, if you are EXTREMELY optimistic. Either way. it's nothing we have to worry about, unless Cryptic decides to turn the clock forward a century or two in game. <Which is ridiculous and wont happen>
As to everybody else joining the KDF.....well, that might work in some cases, but you seem to forget, the KDF isnt some club where anyone who applies automatically joins... the Klingons have the end say as to who joins or not. <You people seem to be forgetting this> So not every species that requests to join will be able to.
Rommies joining Klingons? Wont ever happen anytime in this century, the Klingon ppl wouldnt stand for it, Carddies are the same , along with several other species, which btw are both soooo faaarr away from the KDF little stretch of space that they would be allies in name only even if they did join, unless they wanted to fly halfway across the galaxy and split up there forces AWAY from there respective homeworlds, leaving them open to attack from the federation. Don't any of you guys ever think of all of this? It just coudnt work.
Now I know there a few ppl out there like the OP who really dont like klingons that much and want to see the faction go away, or get absorbed into obscurity but, this is just wishful thinking on your part. Unless cryptic does away with the Klingons, which I dont think CBS will allow, that dream of yours wont be realized any time soon.
Even if Klingons eventually become "members" and not "allies" of the federation...that is pretty far off... and CANNOT happen anytime soon.. you ppl seem to forget that the KDF and Fed are at WAR right now... you just dont kiss and make up and become fast friends right off the coat tails of a massive WAR. Sorry but its just not happening.
Maybe a few hundred years down the line, I know that Klingons are supposed to become members in several "possible" futures, noted during several flashback, time jumping, and "what if" episodes but if one of those alternate realities, or timelines IS the future, it is not going to happen right after war, maybe 100 years, if you are EXTREMELY optimistic. Either way. it's nothing we have to worry about, unless Cryptic decides to turn the clock forward a century or two in game. <Which is ridiculous and wont happen>
As to everybody else joining the KDF.....well, that might work in some cases, but you seem to forget, the KDF isnt some club where anyone who applies automatically joins... the Klingons have the end say as to who joins or not. <You people seem to be forgetting this> So not every species that requests to join will be able to.
Rommies joining Klingons? Wont ever happen anytime in this century, the Klingon ppl wouldnt stand for it, Carddies are the same , along with several other species, which btw are both soooo faaarr away from the KDF little stretch of space that they would be allies in name only even if they did join, unless they wanted to fly halfway across the galaxy and split up there forces AWAY from there respective homeworlds, leaving them open to attack from the federation. Don't any of you guys ever think of all of this? It just coudnt work.
Now I know there a few ppl out there like the OP who really dont like klingons that much at all and want to see the faction go away, or get absorbed into obscurity but, this is just wishful thinking on your part. Unless cryptic does away with the KDF faction, which I dont think CBS will allow, that dream of yours wont be realized any time soon.
Well, the whole KDF joining the Federation is a weird sidebar. Not what I intended for this thread to be about and not really what the bulk of Dan's comment pertained to. And while I think it's inevitable (in under a hundred years maybe) I don't think STO can pull off the kind of dynamic story needed for this to happen in the game anytime soon. (Might be interesting to get a glimpse of since I know Kestrel wants to send players into the future at some point.)
As for other people joining the KDF, I think a HUGE part of making that work is that it has to be the biggest and most popular characters and groups anyone could ever possibly stomach as an audience member or it's a total non-starter as a concept to dramatically increase KDF popularity.
Which is why I see it probably including the True Way, Obisek and his Remans, and any group beyond that would have to show the strain of joining or would be too obscure. You might have Klingon genetics labs create their own Jem'Hadar since Klingons are active in cloning and augmentation and wouldn't hesitate to use the tech.
Romulans... I could buy under certain circumstances... and Stahl alludes AGAIN to Romulans joining elsewhere in his Q&A.
I could buy Romulans if they're very clearly lower class drifters displaced by Hobus and also provided there's a clear indicator that they are second class citizens in the KDF and that they are marked for it.
So... Mandatory shaved head. Mandatory face tattoo that includes the KDF symbol. You should almost get the feeling they're like the marked groups in WWII Germany, some of whom did fight under the National Socialist banner. A bit better because the Klingons are better but I'd imagine KDF Romulans would tend towards a disfigured look. They'd be signing loyalty oaths and agreeing to surrender all personal dignity.
"True" Romulans would have to be their own faction but an outcast group acting as glorified willing slaves rather than face the Mad Max-like nightmare that Romulan space has turned into? Sure. And I imagine they'd be given a different name by the "true" Romulans who stayed behind and, ethnically, treated as a separate race.
Well, the whole KDF joining the Federation is a weird sidebar. Not what I intended for this thread to be about and not really what the bulk of Dan's comment pertained to. And while I think it's inevitable (in under a hundred years maybe) I don't think STO can pull off the kind of dynamic story needed for this to happen in the game anytime soon. (Might be interesting to get a glimpse of since I know Kestrel wants to send players into the future at some point.)
As for other people joining the KDF, I think a HUGE part of making that work is that it has to be the biggest and most popular characters and groups anyone could ever possibly stomach as an audience member or it's a total non-starter as a concept to dramatically increase KDF popularity.
Which is why I see it probably including the True Way, Obisek and his Remans, and any group beyond that would have to show the strain of joining or would be too obscure. You might have Klingon genetics labs create their own Jem'Hadar since Klingons are active in cloning and augmentation and wouldn't hesitate to use the tech.
Romulans... I could buy under certain circumstances... and Stahl alludes AGAIN to Romulans joining elsewhere in his Q&A.
I could buy Romulans if they're very clearly lower class drifters displaced by Hobus and also provided there's a clear indicator that they are second class citizens in the KDF and that they are marked for it.
So... Mandatory shaved head. Mandatory face tattoo that includes the KDF symbol. You should almost get the feeling they're like the marked groups in WWII Germany, some of whom did fight under the National Socialist banner. A bit better because the Klingons are better but I'd imagine KDF Romulans would tend towards a disfigured look. They'd be signing loyalty oaths and agreeing to surrender all personal dignity.
"True" Romulans would have to be their own faction but an outcast group acting as glorified willing slaves rather than face the Mad Max-like nightmare that Romulan space has turned into? Sure. And I imagine they'd be given a different name by the "true" Romulans who stayed behind and, ethnically, treated as a separate race.
I have to disagree here... the only way <in this century at least> that the rommies or ESPECIALLY carddies, who Klingons view as lower lifeforms could be added to the Empire would be as Jegpuwol < i forget the spelling> or farmers/workers equivalent to indentured servants... the fate of all who cannot serve the Empire in a military capacity.
Do you really think low life cardassians and sleezy romulans would be accepted with open arms and welcomed into the military seat of the Empire? Seriously, once again, wishful thinking. I highly doubt the Cardassians or Romulans would even WANT to be subjugated by the Empire even if in some fairy tale reality the Empire wanted them. This is all just so far fetched....
Back to what Stahl said..about small factions of rommies and maybe others joining the KDF.. this is ridiculous, and obviously only intended as a way to sell more barbie clothes, and races/species on the C-Store... continuity and canon dont factor in here really...it's more of the same nickel and diming for no content that we have come to expect is all. It has nothing to do with making the Empire better or improving the game for Klingons.
I don't really understand the idea suggested in the OP. Just adding more species to the KDF is fine, but if we are talking about adding content that is only specific to these added species, then I don't see how that will help. Frankly, the comment sounds like they thinking about taking the Romulans onto the KDF.
I am under no illusion that the KDF will ever be as popular as the FED side, but I don't think the problem is as vexing as Cryptic makes it out to be. The Klingons need to have a complete story line to make them available when a new player starts the game. Additionally, they should continue to allow leveled FED players to bein with a lvl 25 Klingon.
Having two finished factions opens up the way for a true faction vs faction feel, which would lead to better PvP and maybe fleet v fleet. This sets up a new feel for the game and would attract a new playerbase. I think this makes the game viable long term, but it really seems like Cryptic only wants to talk about short term solutions, which is what the original suggestion sounds like to me. The focus should be wider and fairer.
I have to disagree here... the only way <in this century at least> that the rommies or ESPECIALLY carddies, who Klingons view as lower lifeforms could be added to the Empire would be as Jegpuwol < i forget the spelling> or farmers/workers equivalent to indentured servants... the fate of all who cannot serve the Empire in a military capacity.
Do you really think low life cardassians and sleezy romulans would be accepted with open arms and welcomed into the military seat of the Empire? Seriously, once again, wishful thinking. I highly doubt the Cardassians or Romulans would even WANT to be subjugated by the Empire even if in some fairy tale reality the Empire wanted them. This is all just so far fetched....
Back to what Stahl said..about small factions of rommies and maybe others joining the KDF.. this is ridiculous, and obviously only intended as a way to sell more barbie clothes, and races/species on the C-Store... continuity and canon dont factor in here really...it's more of the same nickel and diming for no content that we have come to expect is all. It has nothing to do with making the Empire better or improving the game for Klingons.
The Confederacy had slave soldiers by the end. The National Socialists had French, Polish, TRIBBLE, and Jewish soldiers.
I started a separate thread with my ideas but I think you CAN have indentured servants piloting a ship.
And without more Barbie doll elements to appeal to people, they might as well delete the KDF.
My thing is, I think it works best if you make these distinct from proper Romulans. Tattooed. Shaved head. Maybe have one Klingon requirement be something like they have to slice off one of their own ears as a symbol of loyalty and the absence of any duplicity.
I honestly could see the Romulans, Klingons, Ferengi, and the Cardassians ending up part of the Federation in the future.
With Klingons, the Federation working with the Klingon code of honor and their religion. (Given Worf's work with the Federation and in STO, some Houses joined the Federation, this shows it's very possible).
The Romulans participating in Vulcan reunification would eventually be part of the Federation. (In STO, we already got colonies petitioning to join the Federation).
Cardassians are in the process of integration, just got to work around Cardassian pride.
Ferengi, like Klingons, would have to work around their religion.
If STO is fully regarded as canon, I could see the events of 2409 being more or less the first steps leading to them joining the Federation. And with Romulans from the future trying to stop the Federation from forming, could mean the Empire is still existing (though smaller) or they are already members and a faction is trying to stop it. So by the 26th-27th century, this might become a reality.
Don't forget the Dominion!
Seriously though. Canon has showed that many races that are technically part of the Federation are much more loosely affiliated than the FF races. The Ktarian race is (possibly) a member, even though Etana Jol tried to hijack the Ent-D. Bolians are known to be a member yet their government maintains treaties with certain races seperate from the Federation Council,
I too must agree to disagree, adding the Rommies and Cardies to the KDF is a bad idea and makes no sense.
I can nor speak for the Cardoes but he Rommies need a faction equal to thier standing on the genre.
The Cardies as a playable factiln would be cool, though I know npt whatform it need take.
Do you really think low life cardassians and sleezy romulans would be accepted with open arms and welcomed into the military seat of the Empire? Seriously, once again, wishful thinking. I highly doubt the Cardassians or Romulans would even WANT to be subjugated by the Empire even if in some fairy tale reality the Empire wanted them. This is all just so far fetched....
You're argument isn't really all that strong when you consider that the STO Klingon Empire has already incorporated Gorn, Orions, etc. Who's more sleazy then an Orion pirate without honor? Plus, those races didn't want to be subjugated by the Empire either, but there they are.
I'm not saying I agree with stoleviathan99 but you can't pretend the Klinks are purists that won't do X, whatever X may be, when they're clearly doing X all over the game.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
You're argument isn't really all that strong when you consider that the STO Klingon Empire has already incorporated Gorn, Orions, etc. Who's more sleazy then an Orion pirate without honor? Plus, those races didn't want to be subjugated by the Empire either, but there they are.
I'm not saying I agree with stoleviathan99 but you can't pretend the Klinks are purists that won't do X, whatever X may be, when they're clearly doing X all over the game.
Oh I am not saying they are purists... the exact opposite really lol. Klingons dont want Romulans not just because they are "sleezy" but because unlike simple pirates or thugs...Orions, Nausicans, or a stagnating and dying already weak almost faded hedgemony <Gorn> Romulans are sneaky, crafty, cunning, intelligent, and even though almost crippled still very very dangerous. Above all else they are not easily controlled, I mean come on, they are Romulans. You can never trust a Romulan.... this is known everywhere in ST universe.. why do you think Romulus has no known "major" allies? Why do they always seem to go it alone?
As to Cardassians.. Klingons regard them about as much they regard Ferengi...as slime, there culture would have to spend at least another century alone merely out growing racial prejudice enough to even THINK about regarding them as anywhere near acceptable let alone assets, just due to their race.
It is due to these reasons why Klingons would NOT allow for either of these groups to join the Empire in a military fashion/capacity as anything other than Jegpuwol.... yes, even splinter factions of said groups. AND dont forget guys... Cardassians and Romulans despise and hate Klingons as much as Klingons despise and hate them.. the last thing they want to do is join up with smelly, nasty impulsive and stupid Klingons..."Their words not mine lol"
Not to mention Cardassian and Romulan space is separated by a near infinite expanse of Federation allied systems and territory all belonging to the common enemy. Its just not tactically viable, unless the Klingon Empire were to somehow receive a MASSIVE amount of territory all of the sudden for no reason, and without having to fight the Federation for it, AND grow exponentially several hundred sizes out side its borders.
In the end none of this makes any sense any where near / within the current timeline, it just not possible, everything would have to change...drastically. The type of change that takes centuries to happen i.e. further klingon expansion, racial bias and prejudice eliminated, culture reversal and change, and above all else... centuries worth of conflict between the Klingons and federation due to border disputes and fighting Klingon expansion and Imperialism. None of you wishful thinkers seem to want to acknowledge any of this.
I honestly could see the Romulans, Klingons, Ferengi, and the Cardassians ending up part of the Federation in the future.
Ugh, I think i just threw up in my mouth a little.
After reading all the new info the last couple days such as the Ask cryptic feature, I wouldn't be surprised if they made the Romulans the "Pandaren" of STO.
While I don't consider myself a lore master, but according to the game's timeline, aren't the Romulans split between being Loyal to Sela and Donatra? I can see Cryptic using this to add Romulans to both Fed and KDF. That way they Fed would get their ships with battle cloaks( our last truly unique feature).
Ugh, I think i just threw up in my mouth a little.
After reading all the new info the last couple days such as the Ask cryptic feature, I wouldn't be surprised if they made the Romulans the "Pandaren" of STO.
While I don't consider myself a lore master, but according to the game's timeline, aren't the Romulans split between being Loyal to Sela and Donatra? I can see Cryptic using this to add Romulans to both Fed and KDF. That way they Fed would get their ships with battle cloaks( our last truly unique feature).
Not saying I like it, but I can see it happening.
I actually think the main Romulans are the nihilist villains of STO.
The KDF will get the Remans and the disenfranchised poor miners who have basically surrendered all notion of being Romulan.
The Feds will get reunificationists and take in liberated Remans.
And the main Romulan Empire will be an enemy faction, bent on the extermination of all life and bound in service to the Iconians.
I was suggesting a counter to THAT as the above is what I see as inevitable.
personally i'd prefer the romulans stay seperate from the klingons and federation politically.
i do like the idea that the klingons conquered the territory of the Son'a, which from references in both Insurrection, DS9, and Enterprise season 4, their territory is located near both klingon and romulan space. (the briar patch is known to klingons as "Klach D'Kel Brakt" in ENT, and in DS9 you have mention of a great battle in or near that location against romulans.)
the novelization of Insurrection has the Son'a as a sterile race, slowly dying off over time, which would give the Klingon empire a good in universe reason to conquer the Son'a territory. the Son'a no longer could fend them off, and their role as arms dealers and former allies of the dominion placed their technology as a potential threat to the Klingons if anyone else got ahold of it.
this would give the Klingons access to the Tarlac and Ellora as member races of the KDF (the Son'a being almost all gone). it would also open up the possibility of Isolytic Burst subspace weapons and Son'a ships.
combined with the Gorn ships and Orion craft, you could fill a number of the gaps in the KDF's options.
though from what i've read on the STOwiki and here on the forums, the main need is storyline.
"Tiny little dots far, far away. Our eyes drawn to the twinkle of a hundred billion galaxies. Giving life to illusion, illusion to life. Something upon which to hang our hopes."
- Tobias LeConte - Dream Weaver - seaQuest DSV
personally i'd prefer the romulans stay seperate from the klingons and federation politically.
i do like the idea that the klingons conquered the territory of the Son'a, which from references in both Insurrection, DS9, and Enterprise season 4, their territory is located near both klingon and romulan space. (the briar patch is known to klingons as "Klach D'Kel Brakt" in ENT, and in DS9 you have mention of a great battle in or near that location against romulans.)
the novelization of Insurrection has the Son'a as a sterile race, slowly dying off over time, which would give the Klingon empire a good in universe reason to conquer the Son'a territory. the Son'a no longer could fend them off, and their role as arms dealers and former allies of the dominion placed their technology as a potential threat to the Klingons if anyone else got ahold of it.
this would give the Klingons access to the Tarlac and Ellora as member races of the KDF (the Son'a being almost all gone). it would also open up the possibility of Isolytic Burst subspace weapons and Son'a ships.
though from what i've read on the STOwiki and here on the forums, the main need is storyline.
THIS ^ I just got done watching ST: Insurrection and was thinking about this topic while viewing it. Its been 30 years since Insurrection and from the information Riker and Troi research, theres no way the three ships we see in Insurrection could possibly be the total sum of the Son'a.
They are a very warlike group and willing to do what ever they forsee as acceptable to win. While the Klingons have Honor and a Warriors Code. They also believe in battle, victory regardless of how its obtained is the most Honorable thing for them. They would gladly accept the Son'a and their tactics into their fold.
The ships would add more diversity to the KDF line up and the two races associated with the Son'a would help fill the KDF ranks.
What happened to the Son'a after Ru'afo (apparently a very high ranking member of the Son'a) would be a very good storyline to pursue. Maybe the Federation, realizing the Son'a as the monsters they are, hunts them down slowly dwindling their numbers. While at the same time the Klingons, seeing an oppurtunity, begin to make incursions on Son'a territory in an attempt to bring them in.
comparing the starcharts book to the STO galaxy map, son'a space would be roughly: map
the starcharts book has that area as federation owned, presumably because you can 'over" or "under" the klingon empire's territory. it's located basically on the other end of the klingon/romulan border.
i could see the klingons annexing that area fairly quickly in the fed/klingon war.
it's also close to iconia, which given the direction the metaplot is going, should show up eventually anyway.
"Tiny little dots far, far away. Our eyes drawn to the twinkle of a hundred billion galaxies. Giving life to illusion, illusion to life. Something upon which to hang our hopes."
- Tobias LeConte - Dream Weaver - seaQuest DSV
was flying through the Regulus sector block yesterday and noticed the Briar patch has already been placed there.. which skews the whole Son'a thing all around, because now the Briar patch is found on the opposite side of the klingon/romulan empires from where it is in the official trek material.
it renders the ENT season 4 stuff and DS9 stuff totally complicated, since the nebula is no longer near the klingon empire (which it was on the borders of in ENT, and there doesn't seem to have been any kind of major war to push back the empire between ENT and TOS), nor is it anywhere close to romulan space (as per the klingon/romulan battle mention in DS9)
and you now have the question of "if the briar patch is located in the middle of the federation, how the heck did the Son'a manage to build a separate empire near it and why did the federation ignore it for so long?"
though it looks like the briar patch already in game doesn't have anything to do with plot elements from insurrection, so a simple name change to the nebula already in the game could fix that issue, and free up the name for the official location 'east' of klingon/romulan space.
"Tiny little dots far, far away. Our eyes drawn to the twinkle of a hundred billion galaxies. Giving life to illusion, illusion to life. Something upon which to hang our hopes."
- Tobias LeConte - Dream Weaver - seaQuest DSV
THIS ^ I just got done watching ST: Insurrection and was thinking about this topic while viewing it. Its been 30 years since Insurrection and from the information Riker and Troi research, theres no way the three ships we see in Insurrection could possibly be the total sum of the Son'a.
They are a very warlike group and willing to do what ever they forsee as acceptable to win. While the Klingons have Honor and a Warriors Code. They also believe in battle, victory regardless of how its obtained is the most Honorable thing for them. They would gladly accept the Son'a and their tactics into their fold.
The ships would add more diversity to the KDF line up and the two races associated with the Son'a would help fill the KDF ranks.
What happened to the Son'a after Ru'afo (apparently a very high ranking member of the Son'a) would be a very good storyline to pursue. Maybe the Federation, realizing the Son'a as the monsters they are, hunts them down slowly dwindling their numbers. While at the same time the Klingons, seeing an oppurtunity, begin to make incursions on Son'a territory in an attempt to bring them in.
The biggest issue with the Son'a (aside from not being popular enough to hugely advance the Klingon's popularity as a faction; who would roll KDF JUST to be Son'a?) is that they're traditionally treated as part of the larger Dominion alliance, along with the Breen.
So Son'a in the KDF does lower the probability of a Dominion faction by taking one of their available species.
comparing the starcharts book to the STO galaxy map, son'a space would be roughly: map
the starcharts book has that area as federation owned, presumably because you can 'over" or "under" the klingon empire's territory. it's located basically on the other end of the klingon/romulan border.
i could see the klingons annexing that area fairly quickly in the fed/klingon war.
it's also close to iconia, which given the direction the metaplot is going, should show up eventually anyway.
Actually, I think you're falling into the false assumption that sector blocks border eachother perfectly. There are gaps between them.
The Briar Patch is in the Regulus sector block and Son'a space would be along the southern edge.
the problem is that even if the blocks aren't directly conjoined, the location in game still places ittoo far from klingon and romulan space to allow for season 4 of ENT and the referenced to a historical klingon/romulan battle there in DS9.
not to mention that it puts it nowhere you could have an independant Son'a nation close enough to the briar patch for the events of insurrection to make any sense.
"Tiny little dots far, far away. Our eyes drawn to the twinkle of a hundred billion galaxies. Giving life to illusion, illusion to life. Something upon which to hang our hopes."
- Tobias LeConte - Dream Weaver - seaQuest DSV
the problem is that even if the blocks aren't directly conjoined, the location in game still places ittoo far from klingon and romulan space to allow for season 4 of ENT and the referenced to a historical klingon/romulan battle there in DS9.
not to mention that it puts it nowhere you could have an independant Son'a nation close enough to the briar patch for the events of insurrection to make any sense.
It's based on the official starcharts, which were made post Enterprise and depicted 24th century boundaries. I think the official position is that the Klingons steadily lost territory between Enterprise and TNG.
The biggest issue with the Son'a (aside from not being popular enough to hugely advance the Klingon's popularity as a faction; who would roll KDF JUST to be Son'a?) is that they're traditionally treated as part of the larger Dominion alliance, along with the Breen.
So Son'a in the KDF does lower the probability of a Dominion faction by taking one of their available species.
Not necessarily rolling to play as them, but for the content involving how they were brought into the fold. Or what has happened to them over the last 30 years.
It's based on the official starcharts, which were made post Enterprise and depicted 24th century boundaries. I think the official position is that the Klingons steadily lost territory between Enterprise and TNG.
the starcharts book came out before season 4 "augments" came out and established the briar patch and Klach D'Kel Brakt are one and the same place. the location of Klach D'Kel Brakt in the starcharts book fits the canon information from the show.. the briar patch location does not.
the current location has the problem of being way too far inside the federation. by the time of TOS it would be deep inside federation territory, given the relative location of the klingon nuetral zone in game. it is also nowhere near the romlan empire.
which makes a major klingon/romulan battle occuring in 2271 rather hard to fit. i mean, it is hard to beleive that shortly before V'ger incident, a fleet of klingons passes through the nuetral zone and flies deep into the federation, meets a romulan fleet that travelled even farther to get there, the two meet, fight a major battle in or near the nebula.... and the federation didn't notice this major incursion into their territory by fleets of their two biggest enemies at all? fleets getting that deep inside the federation would imply a dominion war level military crisis, with the federation loosing heavily. yet we see no signs of a war footing or major conflict in TMP, which is only a year or so later..
and the Son'a, which were a sizeable independant empire, have to be close by for the events of insurrection to work. especially given that the Son'a are established as being aligned with the Dominion in both insurrection and DS9. (insurrection establishes they are producing ketracil white, and DS9: penumbra establishes the son''a and the dominion are allied when weyoun orders a group of dominion ships to a Son'a run ketracil white factory.. they are mentioned specifically in the episode.)
it seems highly improbable that there would be an empire existing deep inside the heart of the federation that is largely unknown, employs slaves, illegal subspace weapons, produces illegal narcotics, and allies itself with the federation's enemies.
the location on the other side of the klingon empire would allow such an entitiy to exist, although it would complicate the dominion angle slightly since it is far from the cardassians and the wormhole (though it could be explained as the dominion obtaining allies to distract the klingons closer to home.)
"Tiny little dots far, far away. Our eyes drawn to the twinkle of a hundred billion galaxies. Giving life to illusion, illusion to life. Something upon which to hang our hopes."
- Tobias LeConte - Dream Weaver - seaQuest DSV
Comments
Agree, they may occasionally ally with the UFP but they will unlikely ever join them and they're Romulan co-horts.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
So they'll always be flawed? I think it's missing the point more than a hare. Trek kinda glamorizes the idea of the Federation to the point where anyone who wouldn't join is portrayed as having something wrong with them. Or the Federation has something wrong with them they need to get past in order to make that work.
The ideal is pretty much everyone as a member and I wouldn't blink at a distant future where the Borg Queen and Undine are serving on the Federation council.
A sweeping generalization is necessary because it applies to everyone, in my estimation.
I would be STUNNED if any of the recurring TV writers didn't see it as inevitable. Flabbergasted.
I think Ron Moore would be the holdout who would say it would be long and difficult. Virtually everyone else would probably launch any post-TNG show with it already having happened.
I am saying it is obvious. I have not heard every writer say it.
I have heard specific writers say it, in person and via e-mail.
The totality of what Star Trek is about is the Federation being a perfect society that everyone joins. The difference of opinions between writers might vary on how perfect it is but the point is definitely out there that it's more perfect and improving towards perfection... which is why the Borg lines about seeking perfection are even there, as a play on the whole idea of the Federation.
Now, you can argue that Roddenberry's thoughts were flawed... but I think within an IP, flaws are meant to be doubled down on and compounded, not eased over or made more realistic.
I think it takes a divergent view of the Federation from the intended view as perfect or almost perfect and infinitely pluralistic and inclusive... or a view that the Klingons are irreparably damaged... to rule out the two unifying at some future point.
I don't think STO is the place for that, largely because it would involve backpedaling through a half-finished story or plowing ahead through more story than STO can adequately deliver to get there.
With Klingons, the Federation working with the Klingon code of honor and their religion. (Given Worf's work with the Federation and in STO, some Houses joined the Federation, this shows it's very possible).
The Romulans participating in Vulcan reunification would eventually be part of the Federation. (In STO, we already got colonies petitioning to join the Federation).
Cardassians are in the process of integration, just got to work around Cardassian pride.
Ferengi, like Klingons, would have to work around their religion.
If STO is fully regarded as canon, I could see the events of 2409 being more or less the first steps leading to them joining the Federation. And with Romulans from the future trying to stop the Federation from forming, could mean the Empire is still existing (though smaller) or they are already members and a faction is trying to stop it. So by the 26th-27th century, this might become a reality.
Can you explain how Federation membership is not intended as the default ideal state for everyone?
It's like asking for sources when someone says that a Tom Hanks/Meg Ryan rom com is designed to get them together.
I tend to get vexed when asked for verification online because I use the web as a "no citation" zone to get away from things like scholarly writing, where I have to cite everything. Citing sources is immensely annoying to me because it's dangerously close to work. To me, it feels like I'm at a bar with friends and someone comes along and hands me a shovel and asks me to go out ditch digging.
That said, "Heart of Glory" and "Samaritan Snare" in TNG both indicate Klingons already joined. And people have to use mental gymnastics to get away from that. The bottom line there is that it was an inconsistency created when writers changed their minds. Roddenberry wanted them in but none of his new villains worked as well as the old ones. Worf was added to TNG to showcase this and his backstory was the result of a lot of hammy backpedaling to get Klingons back as villains.
In Enterprise, they were stated as members by the 26th century.
I spoke with David Gerrold about it once. He's the co-writer of the TNG series bible along with DC Fontana (in addition to being a TOS writer) and his exact words were that he considered it "inevitable."
Roddenberry's point on the matter isn't that hard to understand when you consider that the version of Trek he controlled the most tightly already had the Klingons as a member... and that the Klingons were created to parallel the USSR on a show where they had a proud Soviet bridge officer. (And that's really how Chekov was conceived.)
Most of the other witers' standpoint seems clear in that they made a point of taking the enemies of the last show and making them closely integrated allies in the next one.
I think there's a lot of fan dissonance about this point and the Klingons in general, who I don't think most of the first two generations of writers ever fully understood people celebrating or identifying with.
But you have to be at odds with the idea of the Federation as the universal ideal or have a VERY dark image of the Klingons not to see them getting together.
I think it would probably come off shoddy in STO. But my qualm there is with STO's ability to execute it, not with the validity of the idea. There really couldn't be anything more authentically Trek than a future where all the Federation's enemies join up under a single banner. (That single banner may have a different name. But it would fundamentally end up being the body whose flagship is the Enterprise.)
Maybe a few hundred years down the line, I know that Klingons are supposed to become members in several "possible" futures, noted during several flashback, time jumping, and "what if" episodes but if one of those alternate realities, or timelines IS the future, it is not going to happen right after war, maybe 100 years, if you are EXTREMELY optimistic. Either way. it's nothing we have to worry about, unless Cryptic decides to turn the clock forward a century or two in game. <Which is ridiculous and wont happen>
As to everybody else joining the KDF.....well, that might work in some cases, but you seem to forget, the KDF isnt some club where anyone who applies automatically joins... the Klingons have the end say as to who joins or not. <You people seem to be forgetting this> So not every species that requests to join will be able to.
Rommies joining Klingons? Wont ever happen anytime in this century, the Klingon ppl wouldnt stand for it, Carddies are the same , along with several other species, which btw are both soooo faaarr away from the KDF little stretch of space that they would be allies in name only even if they did join, unless they wanted to fly halfway across the galaxy and split up there forces AWAY from there respective homeworlds, leaving them open to attack from the federation. Don't any of you guys ever think of all of this? It just coudnt work.
Now I know there a few ppl out there like the OP who really dont like klingons that much and want to see the faction go away, or get absorbed into obscurity but, this is just wishful thinking on your part. Unless cryptic does away with the Klingons, which I dont think CBS will allow, that dream of yours wont be realized any time soon.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, the whole KDF joining the Federation is a weird sidebar. Not what I intended for this thread to be about and not really what the bulk of Dan's comment pertained to. And while I think it's inevitable (in under a hundred years maybe) I don't think STO can pull off the kind of dynamic story needed for this to happen in the game anytime soon. (Might be interesting to get a glimpse of since I know Kestrel wants to send players into the future at some point.)
As for other people joining the KDF, I think a HUGE part of making that work is that it has to be the biggest and most popular characters and groups anyone could ever possibly stomach as an audience member or it's a total non-starter as a concept to dramatically increase KDF popularity.
Which is why I see it probably including the True Way, Obisek and his Remans, and any group beyond that would have to show the strain of joining or would be too obscure. You might have Klingon genetics labs create their own Jem'Hadar since Klingons are active in cloning and augmentation and wouldn't hesitate to use the tech.
Romulans... I could buy under certain circumstances... and Stahl alludes AGAIN to Romulans joining elsewhere in his Q&A.
I could buy Romulans if they're very clearly lower class drifters displaced by Hobus and also provided there's a clear indicator that they are second class citizens in the KDF and that they are marked for it.
So... Mandatory shaved head. Mandatory face tattoo that includes the KDF symbol. You should almost get the feeling they're like the marked groups in WWII Germany, some of whom did fight under the National Socialist banner. A bit better because the Klingons are better but I'd imagine KDF Romulans would tend towards a disfigured look. They'd be signing loyalty oaths and agreeing to surrender all personal dignity.
"True" Romulans would have to be their own faction but an outcast group acting as glorified willing slaves rather than face the Mad Max-like nightmare that Romulan space has turned into? Sure. And I imagine they'd be given a different name by the "true" Romulans who stayed behind and, ethnically, treated as a separate race.
I have to disagree here... the only way <in this century at least> that the rommies or ESPECIALLY carddies, who Klingons view as lower lifeforms could be added to the Empire would be as Jegpuwol < i forget the spelling> or farmers/workers equivalent to indentured servants... the fate of all who cannot serve the Empire in a military capacity.
Do you really think low life cardassians and sleezy romulans would be accepted with open arms and welcomed into the military seat of the Empire? Seriously, once again, wishful thinking. I highly doubt the Cardassians or Romulans would even WANT to be subjugated by the Empire even if in some fairy tale reality the Empire wanted them. This is all just so far fetched....
Back to what Stahl said..about small factions of rommies and maybe others joining the KDF.. this is ridiculous, and obviously only intended as a way to sell more barbie clothes, and races/species on the C-Store... continuity and canon dont factor in here really...it's more of the same nickel and diming for no content that we have come to expect is all. It has nothing to do with making the Empire better or improving the game for Klingons.
Yeah, that's right.
I am under no illusion that the KDF will ever be as popular as the FED side, but I don't think the problem is as vexing as Cryptic makes it out to be. The Klingons need to have a complete story line to make them available when a new player starts the game. Additionally, they should continue to allow leveled FED players to bein with a lvl 25 Klingon.
Having two finished factions opens up the way for a true faction vs faction feel, which would lead to better PvP and maybe fleet v fleet. This sets up a new feel for the game and would attract a new playerbase. I think this makes the game viable long term, but it really seems like Cryptic only wants to talk about short term solutions, which is what the original suggestion sounds like to me. The focus should be wider and fairer.
The Confederacy had slave soldiers by the end. The National Socialists had French, Polish, TRIBBLE, and Jewish soldiers.
I started a separate thread with my ideas but I think you CAN have indentured servants piloting a ship.
And without more Barbie doll elements to appeal to people, they might as well delete the KDF.
My thing is, I think it works best if you make these distinct from proper Romulans. Tattooed. Shaved head. Maybe have one Klingon requirement be something like they have to slice off one of their own ears as a symbol of loyalty and the absence of any duplicity.
Seriously though. Canon has showed that many races that are technically part of the Federation are much more loosely affiliated than the FF races. The Ktarian race is (possibly) a member, even though Etana Jol tried to hijack the Ent-D. Bolians are known to be a member yet their government maintains treaties with certain races seperate from the Federation Council,
My character Tsin'xing
I can nor speak for the Cardoes but he Rommies need a faction equal to thier standing on the genre.
The Cardies as a playable factiln would be cool, though I know npt whatform it need take.
R.I.P
I'm not saying I agree with stoleviathan99 but you can't pretend the Klinks are purists that won't do X, whatever X may be, when they're clearly doing X all over the game.
Oh I am not saying they are purists... the exact opposite really lol. Klingons dont want Romulans not just because they are "sleezy" but because unlike simple pirates or thugs...Orions, Nausicans, or a stagnating and dying already weak almost faded hedgemony <Gorn> Romulans are sneaky, crafty, cunning, intelligent, and even though almost crippled still very very dangerous. Above all else they are not easily controlled, I mean come on, they are Romulans. You can never trust a Romulan.... this is known everywhere in ST universe.. why do you think Romulus has no known "major" allies? Why do they always seem to go it alone?
As to Cardassians.. Klingons regard them about as much they regard Ferengi...as slime, there culture would have to spend at least another century alone merely out growing racial prejudice enough to even THINK about regarding them as anywhere near acceptable let alone assets, just due to their race.
It is due to these reasons why Klingons would NOT allow for either of these groups to join the Empire in a military fashion/capacity as anything other than Jegpuwol.... yes, even splinter factions of said groups. AND dont forget guys... Cardassians and Romulans despise and hate Klingons as much as Klingons despise and hate them.. the last thing they want to do is join up with smelly, nasty impulsive and stupid Klingons..."Their words not mine lol"
Not to mention Cardassian and Romulan space is separated by a near infinite expanse of Federation allied systems and territory all belonging to the common enemy. Its just not tactically viable, unless the Klingon Empire were to somehow receive a MASSIVE amount of territory all of the sudden for no reason, and without having to fight the Federation for it, AND grow exponentially several hundred sizes out side its borders.
In the end none of this makes any sense any where near / within the current timeline, it just not possible, everything would have to change...drastically. The type of change that takes centuries to happen i.e. further klingon expansion, racial bias and prejudice eliminated, culture reversal and change, and above all else... centuries worth of conflict between the Klingons and federation due to border disputes and fighting Klingon expansion and Imperialism. None of you wishful thinkers seem to want to acknowledge any of this.
Yeah, that's right.
Ugh, I think i just threw up in my mouth a little.
After reading all the new info the last couple days such as the Ask cryptic feature, I wouldn't be surprised if they made the Romulans the "Pandaren" of STO.
While I don't consider myself a lore master, but according to the game's timeline, aren't the Romulans split between being Loyal to Sela and Donatra? I can see Cryptic using this to add Romulans to both Fed and KDF. That way they Fed would get their ships with battle cloaks( our last truly unique feature).
Not saying I like it, but I can see it happening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpfbJLLbczs
I actually think the main Romulans are the nihilist villains of STO.
The KDF will get the Remans and the disenfranchised poor miners who have basically surrendered all notion of being Romulan.
The Feds will get reunificationists and take in liberated Remans.
And the main Romulan Empire will be an enemy faction, bent on the extermination of all life and bound in service to the Iconians.
I was suggesting a counter to THAT as the above is what I see as inevitable.
i do like the idea that the klingons conquered the territory of the Son'a, which from references in both Insurrection, DS9, and Enterprise season 4, their territory is located near both klingon and romulan space. (the briar patch is known to klingons as "Klach D'Kel Brakt" in ENT, and in DS9 you have mention of a great battle in or near that location against romulans.)
the novelization of Insurrection has the Son'a as a sterile race, slowly dying off over time, which would give the Klingon empire a good in universe reason to conquer the Son'a territory. the Son'a no longer could fend them off, and their role as arms dealers and former allies of the dominion placed their technology as a potential threat to the Klingons if anyone else got ahold of it.
this would give the Klingons access to the Tarlac and Ellora as member races of the KDF (the Son'a being almost all gone). it would also open up the possibility of Isolytic Burst subspace weapons and Son'a ships.
combined with the Gorn ships and Orion craft, you could fill a number of the gaps in the KDF's options.
though from what i've read on the STOwiki and here on the forums, the main need is storyline.
"Tiny little dots far, far away. Our eyes drawn to the twinkle of a hundred billion galaxies. Giving life to illusion, illusion to life. Something upon which to hang our hopes."
- Tobias LeConte - Dream Weaver - seaQuest DSV
THIS ^ I just got done watching ST: Insurrection and was thinking about this topic while viewing it. Its been 30 years since Insurrection and from the information Riker and Troi research, theres no way the three ships we see in Insurrection could possibly be the total sum of the Son'a.
They are a very warlike group and willing to do what ever they forsee as acceptable to win. While the Klingons have Honor and a Warriors Code. They also believe in battle, victory regardless of how its obtained is the most Honorable thing for them. They would gladly accept the Son'a and their tactics into their fold.
The ships would add more diversity to the KDF line up and the two races associated with the Son'a would help fill the KDF ranks.
What happened to the Son'a after Ru'afo (apparently a very high ranking member of the Son'a) would be a very good storyline to pursue. Maybe the Federation, realizing the Son'a as the monsters they are, hunts them down slowly dwindling their numbers. While at the same time the Klingons, seeing an oppurtunity, begin to make incursions on Son'a territory in an attempt to bring them in.
map
the starcharts book has that area as federation owned, presumably because you can 'over" or "under" the klingon empire's territory. it's located basically on the other end of the klingon/romulan border.
i could see the klingons annexing that area fairly quickly in the fed/klingon war.
it's also close to iconia, which given the direction the metaplot is going, should show up eventually anyway.
"Tiny little dots far, far away. Our eyes drawn to the twinkle of a hundred billion galaxies. Giving life to illusion, illusion to life. Something upon which to hang our hopes."
- Tobias LeConte - Dream Weaver - seaQuest DSV
it renders the ENT season 4 stuff and DS9 stuff totally complicated, since the nebula is no longer near the klingon empire (which it was on the borders of in ENT, and there doesn't seem to have been any kind of major war to push back the empire between ENT and TOS), nor is it anywhere close to romulan space (as per the klingon/romulan battle mention in DS9)
and you now have the question of "if the briar patch is located in the middle of the federation, how the heck did the Son'a manage to build a separate empire near it and why did the federation ignore it for so long?"
though it looks like the briar patch already in game doesn't have anything to do with plot elements from insurrection, so a simple name change to the nebula already in the game could fix that issue, and free up the name for the official location 'east' of klingon/romulan space.
"Tiny little dots far, far away. Our eyes drawn to the twinkle of a hundred billion galaxies. Giving life to illusion, illusion to life. Something upon which to hang our hopes."
- Tobias LeConte - Dream Weaver - seaQuest DSV
The biggest issue with the Son'a (aside from not being popular enough to hugely advance the Klingon's popularity as a faction; who would roll KDF JUST to be Son'a?) is that they're traditionally treated as part of the larger Dominion alliance, along with the Breen.
So Son'a in the KDF does lower the probability of a Dominion faction by taking one of their available species.
Actually, I think you're falling into the false assumption that sector blocks border eachother perfectly. There are gaps between them.
The Briar Patch is in the Regulus sector block and Son'a space would be along the southern edge.
not to mention that it puts it nowhere you could have an independant Son'a nation close enough to the briar patch for the events of insurrection to make any sense.
"Tiny little dots far, far away. Our eyes drawn to the twinkle of a hundred billion galaxies. Giving life to illusion, illusion to life. Something upon which to hang our hopes."
- Tobias LeConte - Dream Weaver - seaQuest DSV
It's based on the official starcharts, which were made post Enterprise and depicted 24th century boundaries. I think the official position is that the Klingons steadily lost territory between Enterprise and TNG.
Not necessarily rolling to play as them, but for the content involving how they were brought into the fold. Or what has happened to them over the last 30 years.
the starcharts book came out before season 4 "augments" came out and established the briar patch and Klach D'Kel Brakt are one and the same place. the location of Klach D'Kel Brakt in the starcharts book fits the canon information from the show.. the briar patch location does not.
the current location has the problem of being way too far inside the federation. by the time of TOS it would be deep inside federation territory, given the relative location of the klingon nuetral zone in game. it is also nowhere near the romlan empire.
which makes a major klingon/romulan battle occuring in 2271 rather hard to fit. i mean, it is hard to beleive that shortly before V'ger incident, a fleet of klingons passes through the nuetral zone and flies deep into the federation, meets a romulan fleet that travelled even farther to get there, the two meet, fight a major battle in or near the nebula.... and the federation didn't notice this major incursion into their territory by fleets of their two biggest enemies at all? fleets getting that deep inside the federation would imply a dominion war level military crisis, with the federation loosing heavily. yet we see no signs of a war footing or major conflict in TMP, which is only a year or so later..
and the Son'a, which were a sizeable independant empire, have to be close by for the events of insurrection to work. especially given that the Son'a are established as being aligned with the Dominion in both insurrection and DS9. (insurrection establishes they are producing ketracil white, and DS9: penumbra establishes the son''a and the dominion are allied when weyoun orders a group of dominion ships to a Son'a run ketracil white factory.. they are mentioned specifically in the episode.)
it seems highly improbable that there would be an empire existing deep inside the heart of the federation that is largely unknown, employs slaves, illegal subspace weapons, produces illegal narcotics, and allies itself with the federation's enemies.
the location on the other side of the klingon empire would allow such an entitiy to exist, although it would complicate the dominion angle slightly since it is far from the cardassians and the wormhole (though it could be explained as the dominion obtaining allies to distract the klingons closer to home.)
"Tiny little dots far, far away. Our eyes drawn to the twinkle of a hundred billion galaxies. Giving life to illusion, illusion to life. Something upon which to hang our hopes."
- Tobias LeConte - Dream Weaver - seaQuest DSV