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How to break the system with the Fleet doff system
diogene0
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I didn't want to publish that kind of figures on the forums, but I think it's necessary to do so so that the devs get some help fixing the mess they made with the new fleet doff system. My point is to prove that it's the worst feature they introduced since the starbases exists, it can still kill the starbase system and the last - and poor - "fix" which makes the player unable to use them as project inputs just generates frustration and brings no solution to the issue they tried to fix.
I'll be using real figures and I will justify them with facts about my fleet. I can't give names, sorry, it's against the terms of service.
My fleet currently got 6.500.000 fleet credits. We are a small but active fleet of 20 players or so, but 10 of us are really active. We are a really small fleet but we can already break the whole starbase system with the fleet doff vendor and just rest on what we have, waiting for T5 to come without any efforts.
The top credits earned are:
564.000
507.000
443.000
428.000
424.000
It's pretty balanced. We didn't run any special projects after the first week, except the vanity ones.
So we have a total of 6.500.000 Fleet credits for an almost T2 starbase.
With this amount of fleet credits, we can buy right now 6.500.000/500 = 13.000 white fleet doffs. Of course, we can't use them, but we can be silly and go right away to starfleet academy and turn them into 13.000/5 = 2600 green ones.
Of couse, we have no use for green doffs, so we will revert them back to white, but genuine white doffs, which means 2600*3= 7800 genuine doffs.
Of couse, we won't stop here, because the party isn't over.
Grinding 5 whites into greens gives 50 recruitement CXP, and ungrinding 1 green gives us 100. Consequently, we get 150 cxp for each green doff. We will get 150*2600 = 390.000 CXP. This CXP can be turned into 390.000/75 = 5200 fleetmarks, which means 260.000 all new fleet credits we can enjou to milk more doffs.
This isn't over yet! Our 7800 genuine white doffs can give us 7800*100 = 780.000 fleet credits.
Consequently, we can generate (260.000 + 780.000)/500 = 2080 new fleet doffs, ie 2080/5*3 = 1248 new genuine doffs.
Of course, these 1248 new doffs are theoretical, since we won't be able to use immediately our former 7800 genuine white doffs, but they will exist at some point. Which means that the system could be repeated to reach more than 10k white useable doffs! With only 10 to 20 active players! Since the trick can be repeated until the last fleet credit disappears, the ~10% of civilian doffs are already removed from this amount of doffs.
Of course, we will still need some fleetmarks, but I guess that with some training, most of us can learn to slot the most profitable doff assignments for 20k CXP a day. Teaching that to 10 people isn't a big deal. So I guess we may have fun watching the starbase projects automatically complete after a lot of tedious but short transwarps between our starbase and starfleet academy. At least we're safe until T4, and the CXP we grinded should provide enough doffs to achieve T5.
Now, I hope everyone - devs included - understand why this fleet doff system is a game breakiing feature. They are incredibly too cheap. Their price needs to be raised x200 or 300, and it will still mean a good amount of doffs. Your last emergency feature removal did nothing but make people angry at you since you offered us the (almost) infinite doff generator and brought a new feature to trap other players on the exchange with fleet doffs.
I'll be using real figures and I will justify them with facts about my fleet. I can't give names, sorry, it's against the terms of service.
My fleet currently got 6.500.000 fleet credits. We are a small but active fleet of 20 players or so, but 10 of us are really active. We are a really small fleet but we can already break the whole starbase system with the fleet doff vendor and just rest on what we have, waiting for T5 to come without any efforts.
The top credits earned are:
564.000
507.000
443.000
428.000
424.000
It's pretty balanced. We didn't run any special projects after the first week, except the vanity ones.
So we have a total of 6.500.000 Fleet credits for an almost T2 starbase.
With this amount of fleet credits, we can buy right now 6.500.000/500 = 13.000 white fleet doffs. Of course, we can't use them, but we can be silly and go right away to starfleet academy and turn them into 13.000/5 = 2600 green ones.
Of couse, we have no use for green doffs, so we will revert them back to white, but genuine white doffs, which means 2600*3= 7800 genuine doffs.
Of couse, we won't stop here, because the party isn't over.
Grinding 5 whites into greens gives 50 recruitement CXP, and ungrinding 1 green gives us 100. Consequently, we get 150 cxp for each green doff. We will get 150*2600 = 390.000 CXP. This CXP can be turned into 390.000/75 = 5200 fleetmarks, which means 260.000 all new fleet credits we can enjou to milk more doffs.
This isn't over yet! Our 7800 genuine white doffs can give us 7800*100 = 780.000 fleet credits.
Consequently, we can generate (260.000 + 780.000)/500 = 2080 new fleet doffs, ie 2080/5*3 = 1248 new genuine doffs.
Of course, these 1248 new doffs are theoretical, since we won't be able to use immediately our former 7800 genuine white doffs, but they will exist at some point. Which means that the system could be repeated to reach more than 10k white useable doffs! With only 10 to 20 active players! Since the trick can be repeated until the last fleet credit disappears, the ~10% of civilian doffs are already removed from this amount of doffs.
Of course, we will still need some fleetmarks, but I guess that with some training, most of us can learn to slot the most profitable doff assignments for 20k CXP a day. Teaching that to 10 people isn't a big deal. So I guess we may have fun watching the starbase projects automatically complete after a lot of tedious but short transwarps between our starbase and starfleet academy. At least we're safe until T4, and the CXP we grinded should provide enough doffs to achieve T5.
Now, I hope everyone - devs included - understand why this fleet doff system is a game breakiing feature. They are incredibly too cheap. Their price needs to be raised x200 or 300, and it will still mean a good amount of doffs. Your last emergency feature removal did nothing but make people angry at you since you offered us the (almost) infinite doff generator and brought a new feature to trap other players on the exchange with fleet doffs.
Lenny Barre, lvl 60 DC. 18k.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Post edited by diogene0 on
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Comments
In the end, it's a huge time investment, and you're not guaranteeing you get the required doffs. If everyone in your fleet wants to spend all of their time and fleet credits on filling the starbase doff requirements, that's your prerogative, but I'd hardly call it game breaking.
@DevolvedOne
7,800 * 0.84 = 1,248
1,248 * 0.84 = 199
199 * 0.84 = 31
31 * 0.84 = 5
See how quickly the process becomes exhaustive. The real issue is why have people already banked 500k Fleet Credits? I had over a million. The price of the DOFFs is not the issue, the lack of things to buy with Fleet Credits is. The Fleet System has become a great resource sink for everything but...Fleet Credits.
i also came to the conclusion, that the fleet base is only cosmetic...no real advantage in gear or ships. +1 console and HP doesnt justify the prize of 2k zen in my opinion.
on the topic...i will continue to spend my FC for doffs...since there is nothing else i can do with it.
Also, why would you slot any project that needs non-generic DOffs at all? No reason. That's actually part of what diogeno0 is saying - IF you understand the system, you can abuse it. If you don't ... well, then you get abused.
'Looks like you are on the "getting abused" side, and diogene0 isn't. :P
@commodoreshrvk: what you're missing: you will still generate tons and TONS of fleet credits from the dil- and EC-contributions to starbase projects. Enough to keep the machinery running nearly forever. just a bit of actually playing, and it's actually "forever", without the "nearly".
Fleet Credits weren't MEANT to do something. All they were for was making people race the leaderboard. Giving them actual value was a major brainfart. The "fix" they made this week was an even worse one, as it really didn't stop the leak they opened, it just made most(!) people look the other way while busy raging, with a side-dish of economy-destruction. I'd call it an epic brainfart.
Essentially diogene0 is right: Once you got your starbase to T2, with a core of active and smart players ... well, you got your perpetuum mobile right there, a self-building starbase. Fortunately he left out enough that you'll have to do some thinking to copy it, it's not a fuil "how-to"-guide, but he's certainly given you enough of a hint.
And more than enough of a hint to make the devs think twice about it, I hope.
Expect a lot of drastic changes and nerfs soon, and even more crying and raging.
My statement is:
- the devs tried to fix a leak they introduced with the fleet doff vendor
- this fix did nothing but making players angry, and it's not a fix at all since we can always having the starbase feeding itself if we know the game mechanics
- this fix is only a promise of mess and abuses on the game: you can abuse people who don't know the game mechanics
I'm just saying they should fix the mess differently, by a huge increase of the price of the fleet doffs. I'm also saying that not to create more rage and anger about the game, they should enable people to use the fleet doffs in the projects in the starbase again, after the price increase. Yes it will still break the game economy for some time, but it shouldn't last more than a few weeks. That's just a guess though, but giving some sort of compensation would be a welcome proof of goodwill.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
What you are missing, and assuming, is that the costs in resources for Fleet Projects will not increase. It sounds and looks good on paper, but you are following the a false assumption, we know resource costs will escalate. At tier 3 you are up to 60 doffs in some cases. So while it looks good on paper, even if resource costs remained the same, your momentum will drop precipitously. An 84% loss in resources at each step already buffer it.
Yes I agree with you, the current fix abuses the player base. Contrarily, I disagree that the "self feeding" starbase machine needed fixing because it is unsustainable. The loss of resources is far too great and you only really carry it out a few steps before you have to go back in and earn dilithium, fleet marks, etc... the fully intended way. The fix was not needed because there were so many buffers in the system already. Fleet Projects are time gated, only 8k dil per toon per day can enter the system (9k if you have the vet reward), the costs of a Fleet Doff = 500 FMs = 500 dilithium and you only get 75 dil for a dismissed Fleet Doff (84% loss). With all those buffers in place, someone still made a knee-jerk decision that created the issue we have now which seriously impacts the community.
In addition, Fleet Credits still carry little value.
I'll use science as an example, as those numbers are already on the wiki.
Tier 2, generic 1k XP project:
600 Marks, 120 DOffs, 40k Exp, 300 Data Samples, 300 Astrometric Probes
Tier 3, generic 1k XP project:
900 Marks, 200 DOffs, 60k Exp, 300 Data Samples, 550 Warp Coils
Before the patch:
The non-DOff contribution to the Tier 2 project gave you 35800 Fleet Credits, worth 71 DOffs. 20 of those would qualify for the project, along with 20 each from the mil and eng projects. Or: enough to fill half your project. Donating these, adds Fleet Credits again, enough to fill half remainder again, and so on. You get the remaining DOff from combining civilians.
The non-Doff contribution to the Tier 3 project gave you 54800 Fleet Credits, worth 110 DOffs.
31 of those would qualify for the project, along with 31 each from the mil and eng projects. Or: enough to fill half your project. Again. Donating ... you get the drill.
The "fix" slowed this down a little bit, as you're "only" ending up with half the DOffs from that simple project, but:
The Dil projects, when used, generated a HUGE surplus of DOffs. And still generate. At a very moderate cost:
Tier 2, Dil project for 500 XP:
600 Marks, 40k Dil, 40k Exp, 350 Data Samples, 10 Particle Traces
generates 76,100 Fleet Credits, worth 152 DOffs. 263 Dil/Doff. Or about 1.5 Zen per DOff.
Using the "fix", this generates 78 useable DOffs, at a price of 512 Dil, or still less than 3 Zen per DOff.
And these DOffs generate Fleet Credits again, for more DOffs.
Tier 3, Dil project for 500 XP:
900 Marks, 60k Dil, 60k Exp, 450 Data Samples, 15 Particle Traces
generates 113,400 Fleet Credits, worth 227 DOffs. 264 Dil/Doff. Or still about 1.5 Zen per DOff.
Using the "fix", this generates 116 useable DOffs, at a price of 516 Dil, or still less than 3 Zen per DOff.
... and more DOffs.
Enough to make up the difference. Dirt cheap.
If they revert the "fix", if goes back to full perpetuum mobile. With the fix, you'll have to burn SOME, and I really mean SOME Dil to finance the machine - but each Dil project will finance pretty much two non-dil ones, so basically you have to earn about 20k Dil per project extra, and get all the DOffs for free. 20k!
That's ... nothing. Easily manageable by simply playing two STFs every day, if we're talking ten people in a fleet. Not an issue.
No, the perpetuum mobile self-building starbase still exists. It now needs a BIT of work, instead of doing it all by itself as before the patch, but it's still horribly broken.
... and that's still too much spoiling, I guess. :P
(sorry for the edit)
I don't think you are seeing everything. Whether or not it was reverted, you would still NEED fleet marks, you would still need OTHER inputs, you would still NEED dilithium.
It is not a perpetual machine. You will continue to suffer an 84% loss in resources attempting to fuel your starbase solely by Fleet DOFFs any way you put it. It boils down to this - Fleet DOFF = 500 FCs = 500 dilithium, 10 Fleet marks, 4 Common Doffs, etc...
You get the following in return:
Old Code - 500 FCs ---> 1 Fleet DOFF ---> 75 dilithium or 150 FCs = 85% Loss of Dilithium or 70% loss of FCs
New Code - 2500 FCs ----> 5 Fleet DOFFs + 10 Dilithium ----> 1 Uncommon DOFF ----> 3 Common DOFFs
> 450 FCs or 225 Dilithium = 91% loss of Dilithium or 82% loss of FCs.
This shows two things: 1) Yes I agree it did not fix the issue only slowed it down a little and created massive other issues, and 2) The "perpetual starbase Fleet DOFF machine" is an illusion, looking at the actual transfer rates shows clearly it is a net loss for each cycle.
This ^^^^
But you might as well stop talking sense. Diogene isn't interested in hearing it. He already told us on another thread he was railing against the fleet doffs because a.) he thought it was fun and b.) because it was bound to TRIBBLE up his ability to doff farm the personnel officer and then take advantage of the crazily inflated Doff exchange prices.
Facts don't matter. It all boils down to self interest.
As your math shows, the net difference in resources lost between the two methods is almost identical. The real problem for people who argue that the Fleet Doffs were evil is that the they won't be able to sell common secuirty doffs for 500K on the exchange anymore.
Thanks. But I really don't think a retort can be made for showing the underlying losses. I totally agree, the two code systems have nearly the same effect (the update is a little harsher) and it begs the question why this was done in the first place when there is so little difference. Especially now with the exchange issues...
so very useless except for a couple cheep things.
maybe if fleet ship modules were an insane price....
1million fleet credits per module? something expensive and useful....
I'd much prefer the S/B building system were about actual DOFF missions. Y'know a way to USE your DOFFs for the benefit of your fleet. As opposed to simply kill kill killing your DOFFs??
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=330751
Basically, in my opinion this suggestion would make it so you're actually trying to BETTER your doffs rather than simply fattening DOFFs for the slaughter. And in the process your DOFFs will become og higher quality and you'll actually get better at DOING your own DOFF missions.
Currently there's still an unnecessary tension between "do I help myself" and "do I help my fleet." I'd rather that the two were synonymous. By helping yourself, you in turn help your fleet by coming up with a better DOFF pool with which to do Fleet DOFF missions...
Just my repeated 2c worth...
Agree, disagree, see the other thread & offer your opinion. Lots of good ideas floating around over there already...
~MG
GPL, Lobi, dilithium, fleet marks, EDCs, salvage, prototype tech, data samples, particle traces, unreplicatable materials, provisions & such. What happened to getting away from 100 in-game currencies?? FAIL.
~MG
I suggest you stop mindless ad hominem attacks.
---
Another real example of system breaking issues in this thread, where the OP says "I only bought 500 Fleet DOFFs".
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
The OP is phrased as a personal narrative but what it describes is impossible for reasons that have already been fully explained which is that FCs are the product of a grind and it is therefore impossible to spawn tens of thousands of doffs out of thin air.
In fact, even if FCs were a non-issue, the sheer manual difficulty of working with such vast numbers of doffs, that must be purchased and opened one by one, plus the caps on XC listings and doff roster, would make such an endeavor impossibly time-consuming.
If Dio's criticism were legitimate it would be either truthful or at least a lie consistent with some rational self-interest.
What he describes is fiction. And the only apparent reason for said fiction is to back up PWE's decision to bork the system to encourage people to buy more Zpoints and doffpacks.
500 fleet doffs is greater than the entire max size roster and grinds out to a little under four (yes, four) purple officers.
Conversely, it's easy enough to produce 500 white doffs from twenty purple doffs, which are guranteed from the Tholian packs. In fact it is easier to do so because given the roster cap and dil cost, and the consequent fact that breaking is always dil-positive and grinding is always dil-negative, it is much easier to break than grind in such vast numbers.
What this guy is doing here is establishing a red herring: that the purchase of 500 fleet doffs is somehow overpowered when in reality it is extremely underpowered compared to other options available to players.
I don't intend to give a howto but it's pretty easy and doable.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
1. 100 doffs =/= 10k+ doffs
2. FMs are necessary and require player time input
3. 100 white doffs are equivalent to less than four purple doffs and selling the more desirable commons will cover the cost of the initial investment
4. 100 doffs costs 50,000 FC and given the nominal cost of FC there is no way to make a net profit on that transaction (as opposed to #3)
5. 1000 doffs is at least twice the max roster (closer to 3-4 times with even marginal roster usage) so your claim this requires an xwarp only "once per day" is a blatant falsehood.
If in the case of #5 you are assuming division and specialization of labor, with, say, six doffers each producing 150 doffs a day (on one xwarp, with 250/400 base roster size), and six more FAers producing fleet marks, you are describing a medium sized guild whose members are spending about an hour a day, every day, playing this game, and given spawn rates on security and engineering doffs (sub-10%) they are probably not even producing enough doffs to keep projects continually queued.
The model you outline also assumes that the doffers are allowed a monopoly on cheap FCs so they can keep buying doffs to feed back into the system. Even if all other issues with the scenario you outline were waived, the fleet would still have to deal with the exorbitant Dil cost of maintaining the pacing you describe.
The issues you describe could be understood only as issues if the intent were to make the game so insanely grindy that small/medium fleets would have to either play more than one hour a day per member or spend several days or more per project. Your argument is not cogent and can be understood only as PWE apologism.
I really think it is. I don't think he is a PWE plant, really.
His sole and only concern seems to be that he doesn't want his time grinding Doffs for exchange profit to be invalidated by fleet people spending their time grinding for fleet marks and then buying fleet Doffs.
A PWE plant/apologist wouldn't really care what you spend time grinding, would he?
If you read carefully the opening post, you'll see that there is no need to farm to get these 10k doffs. We already have the ressources, and our starbase isn't even T2! 10k doffs will clearly be enough for T3 and a part of T4, considering the amount of doffs T3 assignments require. So we only need to play a few more minutes, maybe a starbase incursion, a colony invasion and a STF or two for some dil, and the road to T5 is widely open. Our small 10 active player fleet will match the biggest fleets in game without ANY effort or challenge.
This fleet doff system can also be replaced by a 'instant starbase upgrade' option, that would make no difference. And I know you're defending the fleet doff system because you know it and that's what you want.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
You are trying to derail the thread by strawmaning and being deliberately offensive because it is extremely clear that I as a player am motivated largely by challenge and that is why I am a completionist and seek and do the most difficult content.
You cited the 10k figure, not I. You're arguing in circles by making allegations then claiming your own allegations are irrelevant. How the heck do you store 10k doffs, anyway? For that matter, what are you going to do with them all now that they're useless?
A "SB incursion, colony invasion and STF or two" are....way more than a few more minutes. Like, about 90m. I can't imagine what normal person or what sort of schedule said person would have to say 90m a day is "a few minutes". Especially given that given the overall quality and prominence and general pacing of STO it is the main amusement for very few people.
Never mind that all those activities you describe wouldn't provide anywhere near the volume of dil you'd need for 12 players to reach T3 in this short timeframe. Either your 12-man group is farming on multiple chars for long periods each day or spending very large amounts of cash.
In short, no legitimate player would say the things you're saying because your assertions about time and resources are unreal and at odds with the game experience.
Your model is seriously flawed though. There is no perpetual motion of Starbase progression from solely "grinding" Fleet DOFFs. The 10k doffs may very well get you through Tier 2 but you need a suite of other inputs that you are missing. The method of attempting this garners a severe resource loss. That in itself should illustrate to you there is no exploit.
Let's take your 10,000 common DOFFs and look at how you could have arrived at obtaining them.
10,000 Common DOFFs = 5,000,000 Fleect Credits (500*10,000)
That means on the next cycle you could buy 1,575 - 1600 DOFFs
If you "laundered" them Converting to green then back-converting the situation is slightly worse:
Here are the main points where your argument falls apart:
Either way, the use of Fleet DOFFs could supplement the Fleet Starbase System, but farming them alone cannot break or send the system into a state of perpetual motion.
I purchased 50 Common DOFFs from the Fleet vendor. Cost 25,000 Fleet Credits
I converted those 50 Common DOFF's to 10 Green Doffs, Resulting 250 Recruiting CXP.
I then downgraded those 10 Greens into 30 Commons, Resulting in 150 Recruiting CXP
I will eventually contribute those 30 commons to the Starbase for 3750 Fleet Credits
Net Gains:
Recruitment CXP: 400
Fleet Credits: -21,250
At that exchange rate, I need to spend 531,250 Fleet Credits to get 10,000 Recruitment CXP
So:
531,250 Fleet Credits = 10,000 Recruitment CXP = 75 Fleet Marks = 750 White DOFF's
and that assumes that all 30 of your doffs are actually useful to the fleet project, which they won't be....
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
Y U No Buy 5 Ships?!?!
(I'm kidding, I agree with your assessment.)
You can turn the fleet doff system into a perpetual motion machine...but as the other posters noted, inputs are necessary to do so. So, it's not really perpetual motion at all.
The input that makes the fleet doff system + dofftwister look like perpetual motion is other players' EC through the exchange. Buy fleet doffs, sell the tacs, engineers and some specialists such as sensor officers (lol) and grav scientists, grind up the rest, sell the high-demand greens (e.g., traders, diplomats and some tacs and engineers), break the rest back down, then repeat the process, disbanding enough doffs to yield dil to keep the entire cycle going. I did this, actually, to power our SB through to T2.
In the doff market prepatch, this yielded enough EC profit to pay for the other inputs. However, it's not sustainable, because eventually market forces would balance things out. It's also hugely time consuming; players paying EC for doffs produced through dofftwisting is really a case of money = time. Which is why we made it only to T2 before the change.
What enables this racket is not the supply of fleet doffs but fundamental imbalances in the system (unequal spawn rates of different doff professions and totally arbitrary demand for different rarities and professions) as well as barriers to market forces (the poor quality of the UI and the excessively low XC auction cap). Most viable markets also have transaction cost to prevent these sorts of rackets (STO is the only market, real or virtual, that I have ever seen, with no cost to list items nor an AH cut, and this enables predatory behavior and racketeering).
It's possible that what really might be going on here is the OP relating the devs' flawed understanding of the player response to their own system. What they think, or claim, is a perpetual motion machine, is really a racket powered by the inefficiencies of the fleet doff system, enabling some players to pay for others' time doing something that shouldn't be necessary in the first place.
If the doff devs are reading this (probably), the solution to this mess is:
1) Add transaction cost to the XC and doffbreaker.
2) Normalize doff spawn across the six professions, then normalize doff spawn for each specialization within the professions.
3) Normalize doff specialization utility within the fleet doff system.
4a) Add more FC sinks (e.g., reduce the CD on fleet assets and make the CD individual not shared).
4b) Add inputs for special fleet projects that enable the purchase of expensive and powerful player assets obtained from advanced objectives in fleet actions (e.g., No-Win Wave 10 now drops a token or something that can be used to open an elite req store).
5) Fix the XC mechanics so they no longer server as a barrier to entry to the market and thereby facilitate rackets (if you guys cant figure out how to do it then bite the bullet and hire people who can).
As for the fleet doffs - the center of this controversy?
Add a doff pool, maybe a jacuzzi and mud pit as well. I know my fleet really wishes we could dump our fleet doffs and entertainment holograms in a pool accessible to the guild as a whole, to make donations, collaboration and guild bonding easier. To prevent excessive collective doff micromanagement and sharing from deflating demand, perhaps add a cooldown on adding or removing personal non-fleet doffs from the doff pool, or some sort of reassignment cost, like 10/50/100/250 FC per add/withdraw operation depending on rarity. Fleet doffs should be bound to that pool. After all, it only makes sense.
Again, however, this will take programming expertise the STO team may not have. And I doubt they'd be into such a radical idea that doesn't have an immediate $$$ angle. /shrug
The point of this thread is that you got 30 common doffs without any effort or challenge, without doffing; you spent a useless and almost unlimited ressource (unlimited if you play smart). 30 doffs are a week at starfleet academy or 10 minutes and a lot of clicks and waiting time of doffing for a doffer, after several months of upgrades to your roster. You made them out of nothing, this isn't good for the balances in this game.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
We've been saying that to him since Thursday - he isn't getting it. And since he considers fleet marks to be an "almost unlimited resource" all I can come up with is his time must not be worth anything.
He apparently likes to wait for the timer to go off on a Doff recruitment mission. Others like to spend time grinding fleet marks to convert to credits to buy Doffs. Either way you get them, they are time gated.
Enlighten us then. I have shown you several different scenarios where you logic and math is flawed. Break it down for us and show us and the devs how you get FCs to be an "almost unlimited resource" solely from using Fleet DOFFs.