Some of you are advocating for increased resistances, and yet the bulk of the PvP crowd argued against increased resistances when the skill revamp took place late last year. We can't have it both ways.
The other arguments about opportunity costs and build choices seem to possess an equivalent duality: You can't build yourself effectively to resist Drains without "gimping" something else, and so request the ability to do so with decreased cost. Isn't having to give up one aspect of your effectiveness in favor of another the very essence of a multi-tiered balance system?
As for the players arguing that Escorts don't have the same control and resistance capabilities that a Science vessel can have? ... well, I don't mean to sound harsh, but ... yes, and that should have been obvious. But you could flip the same argument on its head for a Science vessel attempting to obtain Escort-like DPS and maneuverability.
Every aspect of any system is a give-and-take. Is our existing system perfect? No, not by a long shot. But every single tweak sends ripples out to a dozen other balancing vectors that need to be taken into consideration.
As far as drains I think there are 2 basic types for which resistances are flipped from what they should be generally speaking. Active drains via Boff abilities and passive drains. Passive drains come from gear or NPC pets. This should be the most easily resisted since it's the lower opportunity cost. On the otherhand the Active Boffs should be resisted less. Last I checked this was flipped.
Another issue is force multiplier. As I mentioned in an off topic post. Someone tested polarons and they can stack from a single attacker. So, if you get 2 procs and have 50 drain it's 100 drain instead of 50 drain for a little longer, if using an AoE attack it's even worse as in theory you could wipe an entire team's power. Passives like this at worst should be a max drain based on the highest drained proc. Resists for this should be more effective than resists for Tychens, since Tychens is an active ability that has a cooldown and takes up a boff slot. A team w/polarons or phasers for that matter shouldn't be able to use passive procs to shut down the other team.
On the issue of varying ship consoles, while I agree an escort is supposed to be at a disadvantage vs spec'd sci abilities this doesn't mean there shouldn't be a bare minimum which a ship's power can't be drained below. As I mentioned before I thought this was the plan or has that changed?
That said people can speck even 6 points into power insulators and use a console to push them over 100 while still have a spare sci console in most cases. 100+ is easy to obtain in power insulators. So the question is how effective should the ratio of power insulators to flow cap drains be for boff powers (again I believe passive should have a minimal effect vs players)?
For me the answer is a slow climb in flow cap w/a increase in effectiveness from 175+ on. This rewards players who use multple sci slots & deflectors and skill point investment. At this same time it makes it more difficult to field an entire team of a variety of ships from being overpowering in a specialized area.
On the other hand there should be a base effectiveness at zero resists that no player can go under (25 or 30). Then slightly effective to moderatly effective @ ~ 100. For 175+ in resistance the rate of effectiveness of resists should increase substantionally.
Edit: As others have mentioned the opportunity costs for flow cap, power insulators, and damps should be looked into. There are a variety of ways to avoid most working as intended movement debuffs via boff powers. There aren't for power debuffs. Therefore, Flow Caps should have more of an opportunity cost in skill point investment, I'd say T4. Power insulators if working resists vs 2 attack types (shield drain and power drain) it should be a T3 ability @ least assuming it's working vs both as intended. Damps can be lowered to T2 or T1, but make the effectiveness of it require more SP investment than it does now again assuming it's working.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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C&H Fed banter
Some of you are advocating for increased resistances, and yet the bulk of the PvP crowd argued against increased resistances when the skill revamp took place late last year. We can't have it both ways.
The other arguments about opportunity costs and build choices seem to possess an equivalent duality: You can't build yourself effectively to resist Drains without "gimping" something else, and so request the ability to do so with decreased cost. Isn't having to give up one aspect of your effectiveness in favor of another the very essence of a multi-tiered balance system?
As for the players arguing that Escorts don't have the same control and resistance capabilities that a Science vessel can have? ... well, I don't mean to sound harsh, but ... yes, and that should have been obvious. But you could flip the same argument on its head for a Science vessel attempting to obtain Escort-like DPS and maneuverability.
Every aspect of any system is a give-and-take. Is our existing system perfect? No, not by a long shot. But every single tweak sends ripples out to a dozen other balancing vectors that need to be taken into consideration.
i distinctly remember that when the inital resits were set, plasma leach and TRIBBLE assimilator and other non-bridge officer powers were not resisted the same amount as bridge officer powers. this is where the problem started with that.
also, you need to make shield drains and power drains different spots on the skill tree for resists. having them both together makes balance nearly impossible. power drains and shield drains need to be seperated...
i distinctly remember that when the inital resits were set, plasma leach and TRIBBLE assimilator and other non-bridge officer powers were not resisted the same amount as bridge officer powers. this is where the problem started with that.
also, you need to make shield drains and power drains different spots on the skill tree for resists. having them both together makes balance nearly impossible. power drains and shield drains need to be seperated...
why cant this happen?
Because either A Cryptic assumes their player base is Too Stupid to know how the skill tree works, and be unable to optimize appropriately.
Some of you are advocating for increased resistances, and yet the bulk of the PvP crowd argued against increased resistances when the skill revamp took place late last year. We can't have it both ways.
To be a little more specific, what they were arguing against was a single Tier 2 Skill that would allow you to nearly completely resist everything from shield drains, to power drains, etc.
The other arguments about opportunity costs and build choices seem to possess an equivalent duality: You can't build yourself effectively to resist Drains without "gimping" something else, and so request the ability to do so with decreased cost. Isn't having to give up one aspect of your effectiveness in favor of another the very essence of a multi-tiered balance system?
It is, and it isn't.
As I said earlier, Flow Caps buffs a lot of things.
While not all of them are equally useful in pvp (and some are downright laughable): plasmonic leech, tachyon beam, energy siphon, target subsystems, tetryon glider, tetyron procs, polaron procs, etc.
Power Insulators, to the best of my knowledge, buffs power insulators.
What I mean by this is that Flow Capacitors grants a passive boost to a variety of things that are both passive (weapon procs, tet glider) and active use powers (energy siphon, tyken's rift, tachyon beam).
Power Insulators on the other hand buffs only one active use power (to my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong): Nadion Inversion - a power available to only a single Captain type.
Perhaps power insulators could be linked to a variety of active use powers that would allow players to counter active use drains?
(The same goes for Inertial Dampeners by the way, another skill that basically does very little against endless or multi-spammed tractor beams - or even just one really strong tractor beam)
As for the players arguing that Escorts don't have the same control and resistance capabilities that a Science vessel can have? ... well, I don't mean to sound harsh, but ... yes, and that should have been obvious. But you could flip the same argument on its head for a Science vessel attempting to obtain Escort-like DPS and maneuverability.
I don't think anyone is asking for that.
What they are asking for is that this power drain wouldn't automatically mean perma shut-down autoloss.
Something else to consider, you posted in this thread in response to testing against plasmonic leech.
This is the post you initially responded to about 212 Flow Caps.
ok HERE is plasmonic leach Report from testing without the mumbojumbo random spam:
212 flow caps vs 6/9 power insulators
The target of Plasmonic leach (me Science ship) of down to 112 aux from 125
and a staggering +25 to all power levels to the user, this time it was xeve (btw tanks for helping out)
We tested 3 people stacking plasmonic leach, hilbert miko and someone else sorry forgot name, and they got me down to 117 so it doesn't stack from multiple sources on the enemy anymore.
Personally I think plasmonic leach is "fine" but the selfbuff of +25 with max consoles might be abit over the top +20 is achievable with "reasonable" consoles.
Plasmonic leech is not a sci ship or sci BOFF power, it's just a console that a Bird of Prey or Raptor, or every ship on a KDF team (this is before the largely unresistable power siphon drone spam kicks in) can slot - with Polaron weapons and maxxed out flow caps.
So your point is kind of moot, when even escort like ships and battlecruisers are capable of this type of drain.
If you notice, no one (IIRC) is complaining about actual sci powers in this thread (like Tachyon, Tyken's or Energy Siphon), they're mostly complaining about Plasmonic Leech and Power Siphon Drones.
Because those things require no effort, or skill to use and the cost on a build vs. the impact is like spending 1$ and winning a lottery.
Some of you are advocating for increased resistances, and yet the bulk of the PvP crowd argued against increased resistances when the skill revamp took place late last year. We can't have it both ways.
The other arguments about opportunity costs and build choices seem to possess an equivalent duality: You can't build yourself effectively to resist Drains without "gimping" something else, and so request the ability to do so with decreased cost. Isn't having to give up one aspect of your effectiveness in favor of another the very essence of a multi-tiered balance system?
As for the players arguing that Escorts don't have the same control and resistance capabilities that a Science vessel can have? ... well, I don't mean to sound harsh, but ... yes, and that should have been obvious. But you could flip the same argument on its head for a Science vessel attempting to obtain Escort-like DPS and maneuverability.
Every aspect of any system is a give-and-take. Is our existing system perfect? No, not by a long shot. But every single tweak sends ripples out to a dozen other balancing vectors that need to be taken into consideration.
i agree. to have a truly effective build at doing a cirtan thing, you have to have glarring weaknesses built in as well. or you can build a play it safe ship with all bases sorta covered. this is a good system, there are just some outliers in the system that derail things
siphon drones for example don't have a drain off switch, they do it endlessly so insulators are meaningless against them. i don't think the same thing that resists energy drain should resist shield drain, those are 2 different things. but is thier room on the skill tree fro that? maybe, gravaton gneraters and subspace decompilers should proboly be merged into the same thing, that way the skill would almost be as useful as flow cap or particle generators.
then you would have room for a new science defense skill that would guard against more exotic damage like from tach beam, glider, tet proc, CPB, feedback pulse, and any other direct shield drain. power insulators could be built to fend off the intensity of never ending power drains like leach and siphon drones then, so as long as you are speced into it they cant leave you so helpless.
edit- guys SERIOUSLY tone down the damn insults, this **** is very complicated, trying to balance things with sooooo many variables involved is a monumental task. BE CONSTRUCTIVE or SHUT UP. bort has NO reason to come here and try to debate and work with us if all we do is tell him how stupid he is. HELP HIM with our experience, dont beat him over the head with it! thank you borticus for coming here and talking to us about these things. though some are crass, they all just want the game to be as good as it could be.
i distinctly remember that when the inital resits were set, plasma leach and TRIBBLE assimilator and other non-bridge officer powers were not resisted the same amount as bridge officer powers. this is where the problem started with that.
I must have been typing when you posted this, but yes this was a major head-scratcher as well as those were some of the biggest offenders.
I must have been typing when you posted this, but yes this was a major head-scratcher as well as those were some of the biggest offenders.
Off topic: Honestly I think you guys were behing hit w/AoE polaron attacks which multiproc'd and stacked. There were other things like VM, ES3, siphon drones as well. But, if I had to guess it's the stacking polarons doing the worst of it.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Because those things require no effort, or skill to use and the cost on a build vs. the impact is like spending 1$ and winning a lottery.
This pretty much sums up the current state of the drain build.... the skill required to pull of a drain build is extremely low. A team trying to counter it has to be WORKING as a team. When the Acetons start dropping you HAVE to hit them with kinetic... make a point of pushing them... or start Dropping on Z to escape there effect. (there cool down is way to low btw)... when the siphen pods start deploying someone on the team HAS to control them... ect ect. (one more point to make... Hazards should be clearing leaches and other drains... but the fact that your hazard doesn't clear your friends right now really doesn't help in a team game)
I have beat plenty of semi decent drain teams... with some of the best PvPers in the game... and frankly they are some of the hardest matches we have had... and the issue is that isn't a compliment intended for the other teams players... frankly with out the drains those matches would have lasted 2 min. Put a handful of Draining P2W in combo with a handful of Draining Skills on that team and you raise them to a level much higher then there actual skill level. Man that sounds offensive but I think people understand what I am saying.
First of all im not pointing with the mumbojumbo comment towards borticus, infact when we get something changed most people go on opvp and just spam TRIBBLE and sure it sometimes meens something but you really need to go into a private 1vs1 or a "tested enviorment" to see whats going on and not make this I saw a green cow in space and therefore I died comments.
Better testing for everyone means better game but using the skillcap for balance reason set to 100 is abit low sense it can be twice that amount.
To be honest when you understand actually how the power drain versus the counter to it works...
It is no longer where it was where you can actually disable a subsystem. The argument that it needs to be nerfed even further is a result of not learning the game mechanics or not choosing the counters available to you. Where as the federation has multiple counters to KDF abilities where as the KDF does not have any counters to the special Federation abilities. You can pretty much spec or console yourself out to where advanced siphon pods, tachyon beam, etc is to the point of being useless.
There are a few people out there who have tested this 1vs1 who can back me up on this because of how our setups as far as extreme energy or shield stealing vs countering to it the fights either lasted over an hour without a win or we just stopped because there was no way for either of us to destroy one another.
To be honest when you understand actually how the power drain versus the counter to it works...
It is no longer where it was where you can actually disable a subsystem. The argument that it needs to be nerfed even further is a result of not learning the game mechanics or not choosing the counters available to you. Where as the federation has multiple counters to KDF abilities where as the KDF does not have any counters to the special Federation abilities. You can pretty much spec or console yourself out to where advanced siphon pods, tachyon beam, etc is to the point of being useless.
There are a few people out there who have tested this 1vs1 who can back me up on this because of how our setups as far as extreme energy or shield stealing vs countering to it the fights either lasted over an hour without a win or we just stopped because there was no way for either of us to destroy one another.
Oh Siphon Drones ... Yeah "You can kill the siphon drones then they are screwed" except the second all the siphon drones are gone, the carrier instantly respawns them :S
Oh Siphon Drones ... Yeah "You can kill the siphon drones then they are screwed" except the second all the siphon drones are gone, the carrier instantly respawns them :S
But Siphon drones are the least of my worries.
Don't forget the lolarons that get thrown in, Target subs (just to ice the cake), and possible Viral matrixes as well.
well if the klinks are any smart that's what they field anyway with it.
Oh and that advanced pods have shields.
Siphon pods, and Danube spam are the two worst things going in pvp right now. For differing reasons obviously, but the net result is the same, permanent unresistable lockdown. Danubes it is only slightly less severe since at least Polarize hull and APO will work against the tractors (not the chroniton TRIBBLE.. and not multi tractors... but at least you can slow it down) and you can still shoot during the worst of it.
For that particular test he ran 2 power insulator consoles to prove the point.
They do however have no discernible effect against siphon pods however. He repeated the test later without the power insulator conosles, and the drain rate, and final power levels were the exact same. You are actually better off with your standard Field Generator, and whatever else you fit in your sci slots than actually trying to resist the siphon pods. (do note, though that Power Insulators DOES help you vs E Siphon, and Target Subsystems... and that Tykens Rift even with multiples is not enough to bring your ship down to those kind of levels. It also makes shield drain attacks a complete farce) The resistance skill either does not work against siphon pods or it works so minimally that it's not really noticeable.
The part that's most alarming though is throwing literally power boost after power boost into the ship and seeing 0 change, meaning there is not even an effective soft counter ones the pods hit the field.
Maybe you are the one that needs to learn the game mechanics.
When was this made, it seemed plas leech was the main drain in this video based on the icons when he 1st started losing power?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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C&H Fed banter
When was this made, it seemed plas leech was the main drain in this video based on the icons when he 1st started losing power?
The leech's drain only accounted for 8 power loss. Leech's drain back then remained static at -8. (-16 if two targets, -8 there after for each enemy with it shooting you). The big loss was squarely on siphon pods. Mavs build is capable of putting him over 100 power in every subsystem even on /25 sliders when he's fully cranking. You would think that would at least create a small boost but you saw the final result.
The leech's drain only accounted for 8 power loss. Leech's drain back then remained static at -8. (-16 if two targets, -8 there after for each enemy with it shooting you). The big loss was squarely on siphon pods.
Yeah eitherway it gets back to the point I was trying to make earlier where NPC/Gear based drains are far less resisted than the boff powers which is backwards imo. If not for the forum changes I'd like a post where there was supposed to be a hard cap for drains w/diminishing returns for force multiplying drains from multi sources. Supposedly, this had been put on the live server @ somepoint. But, I think around the time phasers changed to stack and roll before their more recent fix severaly months ago it got reverted. Hard to say
Another mechanic I'm not certain of is if a target gets hit w/a polaron proc and is being drained by plas leech or syphons will the plas leech or syphons be enough to prevent the systems from restoring assuming no MACO.
Eitherway passive procs like phasers/polarons/pets debuffs are too powerful etc.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Now I want to see this tested on every single power drain thinkable :P Including Polaron Cannons ( just use mass turrets and rapid fire lol )
This is the model they are using correct? So if we find something wrong with this model and prove it, then they will have no other choice but to change said model.
Some of you are advocating for increased resistances, and yet the bulk of the PvP crowd argued against increased resistances when the skill revamp took place late last year. We can't have it both ways.
The other arguments about opportunity costs and build choices seem to possess an equivalent duality: You can't build yourself effectively to resist Drains without "gimping" something else, and so request the ability to do so with decreased cost. Isn't having to give up one aspect of your effectiveness in favor of another the very essence of a multi-tiered balance system?
As for the players arguing that Escorts don't have the same control and resistance capabilities that a Science vessel can have? ... well, I don't mean to sound harsh, but ... yes, and that should have been obvious. But you could flip the same argument on its head for a Science vessel attempting to obtain Escort-like DPS and maneuverability.
Every aspect of any system is a give-and-take. Is our existing system perfect? No, not by a long shot. But every single tweak sends ripples out to a dozen other balancing vectors that need to be taken into consideration.
And it's a good point of view. Please stick to that, don't allow everyone to resist everything or to do everything. Science captains have to be able to remain effective, or they have to force their opponent to sacrifice something. Don't listen to those who complain all the time, every single captain should have flaws someone can exploit.
Anyway, someone not investing in power insulator is stupid enough to deserve to be one shot in pvp.
Anyway, someone not investing in power insulator is stupid enough to deserve to be one shot in pvp.
Guess that makes me stupid.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Aytanhi of TSI, TSI fleet founder and leader OrganizedPVP channel Admin Feel free to ask me about PVP or starship strategies. "No, I am not Borg!" /channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match
Some guy no one has ever heard of, or Hard Data, with Video Capture.
Yeah I know which one I'm goin with.
You can call yourself The Pope, and I'm not going to believe you over Video Footage. If you want to counter that you are going to have to make some footage of your own.
Trolling will get you no where I know what I am talking about they don't call me Dr. Zeux for nothing
And who the hell are you Dr. Zeux? I've never even seen or heard of you in the PVP community and I'm pretty sure I KNOW the pvp community.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Aytanhi of TSI, TSI fleet founder and leader OrganizedPVP channel Admin Feel free to ask me about PVP or starship strategies. "No, I am not Borg!" /channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match
Some of you are advocating for increased resistances, and yet the bulk of the PvP crowd argued against increased resistances when the skill revamp took place late last year. We can't have it both ways..
The major pcause for this, is that different abilities are affected different by the resistance.
- Some abilities are expensive to run, like TargetSubsystem3, Tachyon 3 or CPB3, and if the resistance gets too high for them, they're not worth having. This is the case atm.
- Some abilities are cheap to run, like the leech console and siphon drones, and if they aren't resisted enough, they become OP. This may also be true atm.
The major issue, is that on one hand we have the basic boff abilities, that are balanced to a game without resists, and therefore are complete TRIBBLE these days. These include Targetsubsystem, Tachyonbeam, CPBurst, Energysiphon and Tykensrift. On the other hand, we have some abilities that are more than strong enough to deal with resists. These include Leechconsole and Siphondrones.
Unless you can manage to balance the different drain abilities agains each other, finding a balanced resist is perfectly impossible! It CAN actually be too strong AND too weak at the same time, depending on where it is applied.
Especially the Shield Drain abilities Tachyon and CPB are a joke these days. They were never strong anough against NPC shields, and now they are almost completely resisted by players who have specced against power drain. I think you can safely double or maybe even tripple the base numbers of these two abilities, and make them usable for BOTH pvp and pve!
Trolling will get you no where I know what I am talking about they don't call me Dr. Zeux for nothing
what really? video evidence is trolling huh, thats just amazing. turn the quality of the vid up if you cant tell whats going on. watch him hit EPtS and EPS power transfer and watch how it does nothing to his power level, which bottoms out at 9 by the way, as if thats so much better then 0.
Comments
As far as drains I think there are 2 basic types for which resistances are flipped from what they should be generally speaking. Active drains via Boff abilities and passive drains. Passive drains come from gear or NPC pets. This should be the most easily resisted since it's the lower opportunity cost. On the otherhand the Active Boffs should be resisted less. Last I checked this was flipped.
Another issue is force multiplier. As I mentioned in an off topic post. Someone tested polarons and they can stack from a single attacker. So, if you get 2 procs and have 50 drain it's 100 drain instead of 50 drain for a little longer, if using an AoE attack it's even worse as in theory you could wipe an entire team's power. Passives like this at worst should be a max drain based on the highest drained proc. Resists for this should be more effective than resists for Tychens, since Tychens is an active ability that has a cooldown and takes up a boff slot. A team w/polarons or phasers for that matter shouldn't be able to use passive procs to shut down the other team.
On the issue of varying ship consoles, while I agree an escort is supposed to be at a disadvantage vs spec'd sci abilities this doesn't mean there shouldn't be a bare minimum which a ship's power can't be drained below. As I mentioned before I thought this was the plan or has that changed?
That said people can speck even 6 points into power insulators and use a console to push them over 100 while still have a spare sci console in most cases. 100+ is easy to obtain in power insulators. So the question is how effective should the ratio of power insulators to flow cap drains be for boff powers (again I believe passive should have a minimal effect vs players)?
For me the answer is a slow climb in flow cap w/a increase in effectiveness from 175+ on. This rewards players who use multple sci slots & deflectors and skill point investment. At this same time it makes it more difficult to field an entire team of a variety of ships from being overpowering in a specialized area.
On the other hand there should be a base effectiveness at zero resists that no player can go under (25 or 30). Then slightly effective to moderatly effective @ ~ 100. For 175+ in resistance the rate of effectiveness of resists should increase substantionally.
Edit: As others have mentioned the opportunity costs for flow cap, power insulators, and damps should be looked into. There are a variety of ways to avoid most working as intended movement debuffs via boff powers. There aren't for power debuffs. Therefore, Flow Caps should have more of an opportunity cost in skill point investment, I'd say T4. Power insulators if working resists vs 2 attack types (shield drain and power drain) it should be a T3 ability @ least assuming it's working vs both as intended. Damps can be lowered to T2 or T1, but make the effectiveness of it require more SP investment than it does now again assuming it's working.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
i distinctly remember that when the inital resits were set, plasma leach and TRIBBLE assimilator and other non-bridge officer powers were not resisted the same amount as bridge officer powers. this is where the problem started with that.
also, you need to make shield drains and power drains different spots on the skill tree for resists. having them both together makes balance nearly impossible. power drains and shield drains need to be seperated...
why cant this happen?
Because either A Cryptic assumes their player base is Too Stupid to know how the skill tree works, and be unable to optimize appropriately.
B: they don't actually know how the game works.
To be a little more specific, what they were arguing against was a single Tier 2 Skill that would allow you to nearly completely resist everything from shield drains, to power drains, etc.
It is, and it isn't.
As I said earlier, Flow Caps buffs a lot of things.
While not all of them are equally useful in pvp (and some are downright laughable): plasmonic leech, tachyon beam, energy siphon, target subsystems, tetryon glider, tetyron procs, polaron procs, etc.
Power Insulators, to the best of my knowledge, buffs power insulators.
What I mean by this is that Flow Capacitors grants a passive boost to a variety of things that are both passive (weapon procs, tet glider) and active use powers (energy siphon, tyken's rift, tachyon beam).
Power Insulators on the other hand buffs only one active use power (to my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong): Nadion Inversion - a power available to only a single Captain type.
Perhaps power insulators could be linked to a variety of active use powers that would allow players to counter active use drains?
(The same goes for Inertial Dampeners by the way, another skill that basically does very little against endless or multi-spammed tractor beams - or even just one really strong tractor beam)
I don't think anyone is asking for that.
What they are asking for is that this power drain wouldn't automatically mean perma shut-down autoloss.
Something else to consider, you posted in this thread in response to testing against plasmonic leech.
This is the post you initially responded to about 212 Flow Caps.
Plasmonic leech is not a sci ship or sci BOFF power, it's just a console that a Bird of Prey or Raptor, or every ship on a KDF team (this is before the largely unresistable power siphon drone spam kicks in) can slot - with Polaron weapons and maxxed out flow caps.
So your point is kind of moot, when even escort like ships and battlecruisers are capable of this type of drain.
If you notice, no one (IIRC) is complaining about actual sci powers in this thread (like Tachyon, Tyken's or Energy Siphon), they're mostly complaining about Plasmonic Leech and Power Siphon Drones.
Because those things require no effort, or skill to use and the cost on a build vs. the impact is like spending 1$ and winning a lottery.
i agree. to have a truly effective build at doing a cirtan thing, you have to have glarring weaknesses built in as well. or you can build a play it safe ship with all bases sorta covered. this is a good system, there are just some outliers in the system that derail things
siphon drones for example don't have a drain off switch, they do it endlessly so insulators are meaningless against them. i don't think the same thing that resists energy drain should resist shield drain, those are 2 different things. but is thier room on the skill tree fro that? maybe, gravaton gneraters and subspace decompilers should proboly be merged into the same thing, that way the skill would almost be as useful as flow cap or particle generators.
then you would have room for a new science defense skill that would guard against more exotic damage like from tach beam, glider, tet proc, CPB, feedback pulse, and any other direct shield drain. power insulators could be built to fend off the intensity of never ending power drains like leach and siphon drones then, so as long as you are speced into it they cant leave you so helpless.
edit- guys SERIOUSLY tone down the damn insults, this **** is very complicated, trying to balance things with sooooo many variables involved is a monumental task. BE CONSTRUCTIVE or SHUT UP. bort has NO reason to come here and try to debate and work with us if all we do is tell him how stupid he is. HELP HIM with our experience, dont beat him over the head with it! thank you borticus for coming here and talking to us about these things. though some are crass, they all just want the game to be as good as it could be.
I must have been typing when you posted this, but yes this was a major head-scratcher as well as those were some of the biggest offenders.
Off topic: Honestly I think you guys were behing hit w/AoE polaron attacks which multiproc'd and stacked. There were other things like VM, ES3, siphon drones as well. But, if I had to guess it's the stacking polarons doing the worst of it.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
This pretty much sums up the current state of the drain build.... the skill required to pull of a drain build is extremely low. A team trying to counter it has to be WORKING as a team. When the Acetons start dropping you HAVE to hit them with kinetic... make a point of pushing them... or start Dropping on Z to escape there effect. (there cool down is way to low btw)... when the siphen pods start deploying someone on the team HAS to control them... ect ect. (one more point to make... Hazards should be clearing leaches and other drains... but the fact that your hazard doesn't clear your friends right now really doesn't help in a team game)
I have beat plenty of semi decent drain teams... with some of the best PvPers in the game... and frankly they are some of the hardest matches we have had... and the issue is that isn't a compliment intended for the other teams players... frankly with out the drains those matches would have lasted 2 min. Put a handful of Draining P2W in combo with a handful of Draining Skills on that team and you raise them to a level much higher then there actual skill level.
I vote B :rolleyes:
Quote of the week:
Better testing for everyone means better game but using the skillcap for balance reason set to 100 is abit low sense it can be twice that amount.
It is no longer where it was where you can actually disable a subsystem. The argument that it needs to be nerfed even further is a result of not learning the game mechanics or not choosing the counters available to you. Where as the federation has multiple counters to KDF abilities where as the KDF does not have any counters to the special Federation abilities. You can pretty much spec or console yourself out to where advanced siphon pods, tachyon beam, etc is to the point of being useless.
There are a few people out there who have tested this 1vs1 who can back me up on this because of how our setups as far as extreme energy or shield stealing vs countering to it the fights either lasted over an hour without a win or we just stopped because there was no way for either of us to destroy one another.
Don't try to feed us on this TRIBBLE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2jVKaLNnqs Notice how mav blew every bonus to Power levels in the book and the power levels did not even budge by 1 point.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=Mav4_0 That's his build.
It has not changed since this video was made.
Maybe you are the one that needs to learn the game mechanics.
But Siphon drones are the least of my worries.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Don't forget the lolarons that get thrown in, Target subs (just to ice the cake), and possible Viral matrixes as well.
well if the klinks are any smart that's what they field anyway with it.
Oh and that advanced pods have shields.
Siphon pods, and Danube spam are the two worst things going in pvp right now. For differing reasons obviously, but the net result is the same, permanent unresistable lockdown. Danubes it is only slightly less severe since at least Polarize hull and APO will work against the tractors (not the chroniton TRIBBLE.. and not multi tractors... but at least you can slow it down) and you can still shoot during the worst of it.
What are the sci consoles in this build?
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
For that particular test he ran 2 power insulator consoles to prove the point.
They do however have no discernible effect against siphon pods however. He repeated the test later without the power insulator conosles, and the drain rate, and final power levels were the exact same. You are actually better off with your standard Field Generator, and whatever else you fit in your sci slots than actually trying to resist the siphon pods. (do note, though that Power Insulators DOES help you vs E Siphon, and Target Subsystems... and that Tykens Rift even with multiples is not enough to bring your ship down to those kind of levels. It also makes shield drain attacks a complete farce) The resistance skill either does not work against siphon pods or it works so minimally that it's not really noticeable.
The part that's most alarming though is throwing literally power boost after power boost into the ship and seeing 0 change, meaning there is not even an effective soft counter ones the pods hit the field.
When was this made, it seemed plas leech was the main drain in this video based on the icons when he 1st started losing power?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Alright sorry this was before the resist change, I think but i think it works out basicly the same if you have 0 or 10 power.
The leech's drain only accounted for 8 power loss. Leech's drain back then remained static at -8. (-16 if two targets, -8 there after for each enemy with it shooting you). The big loss was squarely on siphon pods. Mavs build is capable of putting him over 100 power in every subsystem even on /25 sliders when he's fully cranking. You would think that would at least create a small boost but you saw the final result.
Yeah eitherway it gets back to the point I was trying to make earlier where NPC/Gear based drains are far less resisted than the boff powers which is backwards imo. If not for the forum changes I'd like a post where there was supposed to be a hard cap for drains w/diminishing returns for force multiplying drains from multi sources. Supposedly, this had been put on the live server @ somepoint. But, I think around the time phasers changed to stack and roll before their more recent fix severaly months ago it got reverted. Hard to say
Another mechanic I'm not certain of is if a target gets hit w/a polaron proc and is being drained by plas leech or syphons will the plas leech or syphons be enough to prevent the systems from restoring assuming no MACO.
Eitherway passive procs like phasers/polarons/pets debuffs are too powerful etc.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
No Captain Moron. We want our toys to matter, we don't want them to utterly replace our ships, boffs, and spec.
This is why your game went f2p you inbred freak. Because you have a bargain bin developing attitude.
ding ding ding ding ding
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
1
No flow capacitor consoles
No Power Insulator Consoles
No Deflectors
Target : +99 Power Insulator Skill
Targeter: +99 Flow Capacitor Skill
Now I want to see this tested on every single power drain thinkable :P Including Polaron Cannons ( just use mass turrets and rapid fire lol )
This is the model they are using correct? So if we find something wrong with this model and prove it, then they will have no other choice but to change said model.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
And it's a good point of view. Please stick to that, don't allow everyone to resist everything or to do everything. Science captains have to be able to remain effective, or they have to force their opponent to sacrifice something. Don't listen to those who complain all the time, every single captain should have flaws someone can exploit.
Anyway, someone not investing in power insulator is stupid enough to deserve to be one shot in pvp.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Guess that makes me stupid.
Aytanhi of TSI, TSI fleet founder and leader OrganizedPVP channel Admin
Feel free to ask me about PVP or starship strategies. "No, I am not Borg!"
/channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match
Trolling will get you no where
Yeah I know which one I'm goin with.
You can call yourself The Pope, and I'm not going to believe you over Video Footage. If you want to counter that you are going to have to make some footage of your own.
And who the hell are you Dr. Zeux? I've never even seen or heard of you in the PVP community and I'm pretty sure I KNOW the pvp community.
Aytanhi of TSI, TSI fleet founder and leader OrganizedPVP channel Admin
Feel free to ask me about PVP or starship strategies. "No, I am not Borg!"
/channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match
The major pcause for this, is that different abilities are affected different by the resistance.
- Some abilities are expensive to run, like TargetSubsystem3, Tachyon 3 or CPB3, and if the resistance gets too high for them, they're not worth having. This is the case atm.
- Some abilities are cheap to run, like the leech console and siphon drones, and if they aren't resisted enough, they become OP. This may also be true atm.
The major issue, is that on one hand we have the basic boff abilities, that are balanced to a game without resists, and therefore are complete TRIBBLE these days. These include Targetsubsystem, Tachyonbeam, CPBurst, Energysiphon and Tykensrift. On the other hand, we have some abilities that are more than strong enough to deal with resists. These include Leechconsole and Siphondrones.
Unless you can manage to balance the different drain abilities agains each other, finding a balanced resist is perfectly impossible! It CAN actually be too strong AND too weak at the same time, depending on where it is applied.
Especially the Shield Drain abilities Tachyon and CPB are a joke these days. They were never strong anough against NPC shields, and now they are almost completely resisted by players who have specced against power drain. I think you can safely double or maybe even tripple the base numbers of these two abilities, and make them usable for BOTH pvp and pve!
what really? video evidence is trolling huh, thats just amazing. turn the quality of the vid up if you cant tell whats going on. watch him hit EPtS and EPS power transfer and watch how it does nothing to his power level, which bottoms out at 9 by the way, as if thats so much better then 0.