I like the fleet weapons, at least the ground ones. They've proven to be very effective.
And thanks for giving a post, Archon, good to hear some dev feedback.
Anyways, DMGx3 for ground weapons is good, I like it. DMGx3 for space...not quite as much. I don't think, for me at least, that's a bad choice, you had very good reasons for doing it, but unfortunately DMGx3 doesn't add to things as much up there.
I would just like to say that, even only a single Acc modifier can be extremely useful in anything in this game, because it's an extra 10% chance to hit something. Even in PvE, that can mean quite a bit, especially now with the new events with more nimble enemies.
If DMG added well...more damage in general, I'd be more for using them. I don't know any specific numbers, but I don't feel like it's enough for what it could be.
If any Acc weapons aren't added to the fleet weapons, I can totally understand that. I do look forward to seeing what elite equipment is like.
Oh yes, on a side-note you said Archon that the number of modifiers is more or less what determines an items rarity, so would that technically make Quad Cannons Ultra-rares?
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I like the fleet weapons, at least the ground ones. They've proven to be very effective.
And thanks for giving a post, Archon, good to hear some dev feedback.
Anyways, DMGx3 for ground weapons is good, I like it. DMGx3 for space...not quite as much. I don't think, for me at least, that's a bad choice, you had very good reasons for doing it, but unfortunately DMGx3 doesn't add to things as much up there.
I would just like to say that, even only a single Acc modifier can be extremely useful in anything in this game, because it's an extra 10% chance to hit something. Even in PvE, that can mean quite a bit, especially now with the new events with more nimble enemies.
If DMG added well...more damage in general, I'd be more for using them. I don't know any specific numbers, but I don't feel like it's enough for what it could be.
If any Acc weapons aren't added to the fleet weapons, I can totally understand that. I do look forward to seeing what elite equipment is like.
Oh yes, on a side-note you said Archon that the number of modifiers is more or less what determines an items rarity, so would that technically make Quad Cannons Ultra-rares?
I think the core problem is less with the weapons themselves and more with Accuracy and how weapon stats work.
Basically, you can never have too much of a stat like Accuracy because each weapon only benefits from its own modifier. This is more noticeable in space, where you have more weapons.
If the mod on each weapon applied to all weapons, people could become Accuracy capped with a few of them and would be better off with a diversity of modifiers. (And something like Dmg would become much nicer for someone who is Acc and Crit capped.)
This is how it worked in other games I've played.
Stats from any piece of gear affect all gear. Consequently, damage dealers and tanks focus on getting accuracy-capped/hit-capped first and then use additional gear slots to focus on survivability or damage. Tanks usually have an easier time getting hit-capped. Bonus damage scales well with crit, especially after being crit capped... And someone who wants to be reliable PvE damage may prefer damage over crit to avoid aggro whereas tanks and PvPers may prefer crit. (Tanks because crits generate disproportionate aggro. PvPers because fights are faster paced and burst is important.)
I think if mods from one weapon affected all weapons and there were caps on how many bonuses could be applied, people would go for more interesting stat combos.
In terms of PvP/tanking, I think Starship Threat Control should add a BIG accuracy boost per point spent and maybe a SMALL crit reduction to offset that for balance, in addition to its threat and damage resistance.
This would gear people to look more at CritH, severity, and Dmg.
I think an inverted Starship Threat Control talent should also be looked at. Damage boost. Threat reduction. Small accuracy boost, big crit reduction.
I'd look at something similar for ground but a bit different.
Ground Threat Control:
Aggro increase. Survivability Increase. Increased chance and duration of exposes. Six points spent gives you a taunt.
Ground Damage Control:
Aggro reduction. Flanking bonus and crit bonus. Increased damage and crit for exploits. Six points gives you an aggro drop.
Ground Support Control:
Aggro reduction. Resistance to stuns, holds, snares, and confuses. Boost to chance for stuns, holds, snares, and confuses. Six points gives you a passive group damage and healing buff.
Well, I'm glad to see positive feedback from other people who are actually using the Adv. Fleet ground weapons. The Adv. Fleet ground shields could definitely use some kind of buff. The only shield that really caught my interest was the [Ene] shield, but it would be nice to know what % chance I have for the proc to apply. I love the Fleet Energy Harness armor, and the across the board dmg resist boosts all the other armor types received.
As far as the Adv. Fleet Space weapons, I don't have a dog in that fight so to speak. However, I can understand the preference for ACC over DMG, especially in PvP settings.
I'll chime in on this, since I was one of the people involved with the design of the fleet loot.
There were a number of reasons why we designed the Fleet Advanced ground weapons the way we did. These weapons are not intended to eclipse STF gear in performance, and as such, we needed to be very careful about tuning them to be potentially useful without being a clear upgrade over STF equipment.
Currently, Fleet Advanced ground weapons are built with DMGx3 and one of three powerful additional modifiers (CritX, DoT3, or KB3). This should serve to make them clear upgrades over Dilithium store purchases, but not necessarily more effective than STF gear or other Very Rare items. The "Ultra Rare" item type is an indication of the number of modifiers on the item - it does not necessarily indicate that the item should be "better" than a "Very Rare" item in all circumstances.
While I certainly could have built more variations on these weapons - such as versions with more CritH or CritD instead of Dmg - there are multiple issues with that. First off, every additional modifier takes additional time to make, as well as additional time for QA to test for functionality and balance.
Second, generating additional item combinations can bloat the store - if I made every possible combination of CritH/CritD/Dmg/DoT3/KB3/CritX with four slots, we'd be dealing with a store that's almost impossible for players to browse. Of course, that's an extreme example, but we felt that these items were offering players a sufficient number of new options to purchase for the current stage of unlocking Starbase features.
Third, some other possible combinations on a four-property weapon can be very dangerous to game balance, especially in PvP. A weapon with three CritD modifiers as well as CritX, for example, would have deadly burst potential.
On the subject of unique models, there are Elite Fleet Weapons available at a higher Fleet level. These weapons have unique models and procs, and are intended to be more "unique" than the Advanced Fleet gear.
The STO design team is constantly evaluating balance changes. I'm certainly willing to consider the possibility of adding more weapons to the fleet system in the future, or potentially improving the damage boost provided by the [DMG] or [DMG]x3 properties.
So then, I ask this: If the fleet adv weapons are not as good as the weapons from the stf vendor, what incentive is there to level up a starbase to get them?
Why bother with them at all, just simply carry on grinding stfs which require no resource other than time to get?
They should be at least on par if not better considering the amount of resources it required to even be able to buy them, let alone the extra it needs to actually buy them.
Its counter productive and just another shoot yourself in the foot moment from cryptic....
I think the sacrifice of set bonuses is what's excessive, actually.
The gimmick/power bonuses may be one thing.
However I think Fleet ARMOR perhaps should come with a built in remod.
(You can use a Fleet Weapon and still get the 3 piece bonus from an STF set since you can equip two weapons. Putting the remod on the armor forces a decision about losing the 2 piece set bonus if someone goes "all fleet.")
How about power consumption as an attribute for space weapons? [Eff] weapons that use 8 power instead of 10 power, for example.
How about if it simply reduced power consumption by 25%? I.e. 1 mod on an 8 power consuming weapon makes it use 6 power, 2 mods = 4 power, etc. All-in-all, though, I think its a great idea, and archon should definatelly look into it.
When in doubt, (hehe) c4!
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
(Here I actually honestly think that noobs at Cryptic THINK that dmg mod is the higher DAMAGE in practice and they think its awesome LOL.)
Whats the awesome Shield stuff we get at Tier4/5? Covariant [cap]x4? LOL seriously...
And then we get the awesome Fleet ships where most escorts only have 3/4 Tac consoles with 16 turnrate and crappy 0.7x shield mod compared to the awesome jem hadar ship and others.
Defiant again/still crappy 3 ensign tacticals which is completely useless in PvP, perhaps awesome for an Roleplaying/PVE build no doubt.
Awesome job cryptic!
Introduce more failsuace when ur at it.
These weapons are not intended to eclipse STF gear in performance,
Why not?
There is a significant group effort to get these. A lot of players will see the effort to level their fleet not worthwhile, making Star Bases a big fat waste of time and resources.
There are always going to be some weapons that are better for certain character builds than others. For example, someone with Starship Energy Weapon Specialization will benefit more from CritD weapons than someone that lacks this skill.
_____________________
Come join the 44th Fleet.
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Just for fun, let's have a vote: who thinks starbases aren't worth the eforrt and/or rescources to make, and are therefore, a 'big fat waste of time'? Yay or nay. I say yes.
When in doubt, (hehe) c4!
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
I'll chime in on this, since I was one of the people involved with the design of the fleet loot.
There were a number of reasons why we designed the Fleet Advanced ground weapons the way we did. These weapons are not intended to eclipse STF gear in performance, and as such, we needed to be very careful about tuning them to be potentially useful without being a clear upgrade over STF equipment.
Currently, Fleet Advanced ground weapons are built with DMGx3 and one of three powerful additional modifiers (CritX, DoT3, or KB3). This should serve to make them clear upgrades over Dilithium store purchases, but not necessarily more effective than STF gear or other Very Rare items. The "Ultra Rare" item type is an indication of the number of modifiers on the item - it does not necessarily indicate that the item should be "better" than a "Very Rare" item in all circumstances.
While I certainly could have built more variations on these weapons - such as versions with more CritH or CritD instead of Dmg - there are multiple issues with that. First off, every additional modifier takes additional time to make, as well as additional time for QA to test for functionality and balance.
Second, generating additional item combinations can bloat the store - if I made every possible combination of CritH/CritD/Dmg/DoT3/KB3/CritX with four slots, we'd be dealing with a store that's almost impossible for players to browse. Of course, that's an extreme example, but we felt that these items were offering players a sufficient number of new options to purchase for the current stage of unlocking Starbase features.
Third, some other possible combinations on a four-property weapon can be very dangerous to game balance, especially in PvP. A weapon with three CritD modifiers as well as CritX, for example, would have deadly burst potential.
On the subject of unique models, there are Elite Fleet Weapons available at a higher Fleet level. These weapons have unique models and procs, and are intended to be more "unique" than the Advanced Fleet gear.
The STO design team is constantly evaluating balance changes. I'm certainly willing to consider the possibility of adding more weapons to the fleet system in the future, or potentially improving the damage boost provided by the [DMG] or [DMG]x3 properties.
Wow - didnt know you piped in, but I appreciate your post! I forgot about this thread so excuse the mild necromancy going on here, but it is still a current issue and since I started the thread, I feel I deserve a smidge latitude.
Your post confirmed what I already assumed: that [DMG] is effectively a throwaway mod. My concerns are - these Fleet weapons take MUCH more effort to get than a VR weapon from the exchange or random drop. We're talking exponentially more. And the DMG mod in its current state simply doesn't justify the cost.
The simple fixes would be to buff DMG OR move from a [DMG]x3 to a DMGx2 model and then offer some limited permutations using the other mods. I'm gonna guess the DMG mod is part of the reason you created the CritX mod to partially make up for it.
Also, I would submit that the [DoTx] and KBx] mods are also "throwaway" mods in real-world usage; Ground combat almost always happens too fast for these to offer any utility. (They too would need a buff; think Dot6 and or KB6, at least) Plus everyone knows that on ground combat, Crit is KING.
Wow - didnt know you piped in, but I appreciate your post! I forgot about this thread so excuse the mild necromancy going on here, but it is still a current issue and since I started the thread, I feel I deserve a smidge latitude.
Your post confirmed what I already assumed: that [DMG] is effectively a throwaway mod. My concerns are - these Fleet weapons take MUCH more effort to get than a VR weapon from the exchange or random drop. We're talking exponentially more. And the DMG mod in its current state simply doesn't justify the cost.
The simple fixes would be to buff DMG OR move from a [DMG]x3 to a DMGx2 model and then offer some limited permutations using the other mods. I'm gonna guess the DMG mod is part of the reason you created the CritX mod to partially make up for it.
Also, I would submit that the [DoTx] and KBx] mods are also "throwaway" mods in real-world usage; Ground combat almost always happens too fast for these to offer any utility. (They too would need a buff; think Dot6 and or KB6, at least) Plus everyone knows that on ground combat, Crit is KING.
Thank you for bumping your own thread and glad to see you are still here!
Just for fun, let's have a vote: who thinks starbases aren't worth the eforrt and/or rescources to make, and are therefore, a 'big fat waste of time'? Yay or nay. I say yes.
Comments
And thanks for giving a post, Archon, good to hear some dev feedback.
Anyways, DMGx3 for ground weapons is good, I like it. DMGx3 for space...not quite as much. I don't think, for me at least, that's a bad choice, you had very good reasons for doing it, but unfortunately DMGx3 doesn't add to things as much up there.
I would just like to say that, even only a single Acc modifier can be extremely useful in anything in this game, because it's an extra 10% chance to hit something. Even in PvE, that can mean quite a bit, especially now with the new events with more nimble enemies.
If DMG added well...more damage in general, I'd be more for using them. I don't know any specific numbers, but I don't feel like it's enough for what it could be.
If any Acc weapons aren't added to the fleet weapons, I can totally understand that. I do look forward to seeing what elite equipment is like.
Oh yes, on a side-note you said Archon that the number of modifiers is more or less what determines an items rarity, so would that technically make Quad Cannons Ultra-rares?
I think the core problem is less with the weapons themselves and more with Accuracy and how weapon stats work.
Basically, you can never have too much of a stat like Accuracy because each weapon only benefits from its own modifier. This is more noticeable in space, where you have more weapons.
If the mod on each weapon applied to all weapons, people could become Accuracy capped with a few of them and would be better off with a diversity of modifiers. (And something like Dmg would become much nicer for someone who is Acc and Crit capped.)
This is how it worked in other games I've played.
Stats from any piece of gear affect all gear. Consequently, damage dealers and tanks focus on getting accuracy-capped/hit-capped first and then use additional gear slots to focus on survivability or damage. Tanks usually have an easier time getting hit-capped. Bonus damage scales well with crit, especially after being crit capped... And someone who wants to be reliable PvE damage may prefer damage over crit to avoid aggro whereas tanks and PvPers may prefer crit. (Tanks because crits generate disproportionate aggro. PvPers because fights are faster paced and burst is important.)
I think if mods from one weapon affected all weapons and there were caps on how many bonuses could be applied, people would go for more interesting stat combos.
This would gear people to look more at CritH, severity, and Dmg.
I think an inverted Starship Threat Control talent should also be looked at. Damage boost. Threat reduction. Small accuracy boost, big crit reduction.
I'd look at something similar for ground but a bit different.
Ground Threat Control:
Aggro increase. Survivability Increase. Increased chance and duration of exposes. Six points spent gives you a taunt.
Ground Damage Control:
Aggro reduction. Flanking bonus and crit bonus. Increased damage and crit for exploits. Six points gives you an aggro drop.
Ground Support Control:
Aggro reduction. Resistance to stuns, holds, snares, and confuses. Boost to chance for stuns, holds, snares, and confuses. Six points gives you a passive group damage and healing buff.
As far as the Adv. Fleet Space weapons, I don't have a dog in that fight so to speak. However, I can understand the preference for ACC over DMG, especially in PvP settings.
So then, I ask this: If the fleet adv weapons are not as good as the weapons from the stf vendor, what incentive is there to level up a starbase to get them?
Why bother with them at all, just simply carry on grinding stfs which require no resource other than time to get?
They should be at least on par if not better considering the amount of resources it required to even be able to buy them, let alone the extra it needs to actually buy them.
Its counter productive and just another shoot yourself in the foot moment from cryptic....
Perhaps to leave room open for future Fleet Sets?
How about if it simply reduced power consumption by 25%? I.e. 1 mod on an 8 power consuming weapon makes it use 6 power, 2 mods = 4 power, etc. All-in-all, though, I think its a great idea, and archon should definatelly look into it.
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
More Dmgx3 TRIBBLE.
Space
More Dmgx3 TRIBBLE.
(Here I actually honestly think that noobs at Cryptic THINK that dmg mod is the higher DAMAGE in practice and they think its awesome LOL.)
Whats the awesome Shield stuff we get at Tier4/5? Covariant [cap]x4? LOL seriously...
And then we get the awesome Fleet ships where most escorts only have 3/4 Tac consoles with 16 turnrate and crappy 0.7x shield mod compared to the awesome jem hadar ship and others.
Defiant again/still crappy 3 ensign tacticals which is completely useless in PvP, perhaps awesome for an Roleplaying/PVE build no doubt.
Awesome job cryptic!
Introduce more failsuace when ur at it.
See here:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=5085851#post5085851
Come join the 44th Fleet.
startrek.44thfleet.com[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Ground =/= space. Different venue, different topic. MT has 3 words of ground and the rest refers to space.
OP *is* the new balance, whether you know it or not! Gecko says so.
Season 7 - Exodus, available online. U buy nao!
http://seekingalpha.com/article/738221-monetizing-perfect-world-s-latest-update
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Why not?
There is a significant group effort to get these. A lot of players will see the effort to level their fleet not worthwhile, making Star Bases a big fat waste of time and resources.
So? Most of the reasons that the dev gave would apply to both. If you read further down the thread, he gave an example from space weapons:
Come join the 44th Fleet.
startrek.44thfleet.com[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's still fail.
OP *is* the new balance, whether you know it or not! Gecko says so.
Season 7 - Exodus, available online. U buy nao!
http://seekingalpha.com/article/738221-monetizing-perfect-world-s-latest-update
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
Wow - didnt know you piped in, but I appreciate your post! I forgot about this thread so excuse the mild necromancy going on here, but it is still a current issue and since I started the thread, I feel I deserve a smidge latitude.
Your post confirmed what I already assumed: that [DMG] is effectively a throwaway mod. My concerns are - these Fleet weapons take MUCH more effort to get than a VR weapon from the exchange or random drop. We're talking exponentially more. And the DMG mod in its current state simply doesn't justify the cost.
The simple fixes would be to buff DMG OR move from a [DMG]x3 to a DMGx2 model and then offer some limited permutations using the other mods. I'm gonna guess the DMG mod is part of the reason you created the CritX mod to partially make up for it.
Also, I would submit that the [DoTx] and KBx] mods are also "throwaway" mods in real-world usage; Ground combat almost always happens too fast for these to offer any utility. (They too would need a buff; think Dot6 and or KB6, at least) Plus everyone knows that on ground combat, Crit is KING.
Thank you for bumping your own thread and glad to see you are still here!
This was useful info!
I do you got the vote