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Fleet Ground/ Space Weapons: DMGx3 = Fail.
badname834854
Member Posts: 1,186 Arc User
Hey guys,
So, after some perusal through the fleet weapons stores, I say "Where's the beef?" (yes, I am old...)
DMG has got to be one of the worse modifiers in general, as it's mild bump to DPS doesn't make up for the increase in spike from more useful ground modifiers such as [CritH] and [CritD]. Let me give an example:
Ill use one of my personal weapons as a comparison:
Tetryon Split beam Rifle Mk XII [CritD]x2 [CritH]
46 x 2 [96.8 DPS]
Now here's the Fleet Version:
Fleet Tetryon Split Beam Rifle MK XII [DMGx3]+[Random Modifier]
49.4 x2 [104 DPS]
In my opinion, for the amount of money spent, the payout is lame. The additional 3 points of damage you get you won't notice or miss. You don't notice DMG so much in a firefight, but you WILL notice CritD in a firefight. Lets use some others for a comparison...(random from the Exchange...)
Tetryon Split Beam Rifle MK XII [Dmg] [DoT3]
46.5 x 2 (97.8 DPS)
And Just for grins, here's a cheapie one I saw on the exchange (roughly 10k EC):
Sonic Antiproton Split Beam Rifle mk XII
45 x 2 (94.8 DPS)
In short, for the amount of Dilithium/Fleet Points spent, the fleet weapons are decent, but there are more economical options that offer similar - if not superior - performance in real-world usage.
So - I implore the devs to add more variants of these rifles with other modifiers besides DMG x 3 - how about just 1 DMG + combination of the others?
Thoughts?
-ABM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes
So, after some perusal through the fleet weapons stores, I say "Where's the beef?" (yes, I am old...)
DMG has got to be one of the worse modifiers in general, as it's mild bump to DPS doesn't make up for the increase in spike from more useful ground modifiers such as [CritH] and [CritD]. Let me give an example:
Ill use one of my personal weapons as a comparison:
Tetryon Split beam Rifle Mk XII [CritD]x2 [CritH]
46 x 2 [96.8 DPS]
Now here's the Fleet Version:
Fleet Tetryon Split Beam Rifle MK XII [DMGx3]+[Random Modifier]
49.4 x2 [104 DPS]
In my opinion, for the amount of money spent, the payout is lame. The additional 3 points of damage you get you won't notice or miss. You don't notice DMG so much in a firefight, but you WILL notice CritD in a firefight. Lets use some others for a comparison...(random from the Exchange...)
Tetryon Split Beam Rifle MK XII [Dmg] [DoT3]
46.5 x 2 (97.8 DPS)
And Just for grins, here's a cheapie one I saw on the exchange (roughly 10k EC):
Sonic Antiproton Split Beam Rifle mk XII
45 x 2 (94.8 DPS)
In short, for the amount of Dilithium/Fleet Points spent, the fleet weapons are decent, but there are more economical options that offer similar - if not superior - performance in real-world usage.
So - I implore the devs to add more variants of these rifles with other modifiers besides DMG x 3 - how about just 1 DMG + combination of the others?
Thoughts?
-ABM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes
Post edited by badname834854 on
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That said, the new weapons are still very potent, earlier in a colony invasion I hit well over a fifteen-hundred damage on a very unfortunate Breen Captain with a Disruptor Sniper rifle on my Fed tac.
I will say though, that I like the CritX modifier, which is unique to fleet weaponry. It basically acts as a CrtD and a CrtH modifier in one. For sake of balance, i'd never want more than one of those stacking.
What would be really nice, isn't so much making a gigantic list of EVERY variation of modifiers for EVERY single weapon, but instead let us pick and choose which ones we might want. Like KB3, CritX could only have one on a weapon, but as many DMG ones as we wanted. Still a max total of 4 of course.
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we ASK that a Dev tells us why he added the DMGx3 modifier?
Maybe he knows something that we don't?
Maybe instead we should ask to give the DMG modifier a serious Buff?
After all, it is good for higher sustained DPS, but with Season 4 ground combat was made so fast that sustained DPS isn't worth much on ground anymore.
imho, Miniguns need a serious buff too, everybody is using Shotguns or Snipers, nobody is going for the awesome looking rapid fire guns...
What's the thinking behind this?
the community generally thinks the DMG modifier is the worst of em all.
(all evidence i have seen is word of mouth, no math from anyone anywhere?)
maybe there is some secret math behind all of this which makes the DMG mod better than we all think?
Maybe let Geko (it was him, right?) make a Dev Blog about all the modifiers in the game, what they do and how we should use them?
Adding DMG is a nice thing, but +1 isn't really spectactular. Not sure exactly where the line would be drawn for it to be OP, but lets just say instead of +1, maybe +3 or +5. So then you have to decide which is better, weapons with Critx2 or DMGx2. One being a constant damage type, the other a variable (low damage to very high damage).
Also, be nice if we could think of other modifiers they can add to weapons. Accuracy and Range for Ground be nice. Perhaps modifiers that reduce stealth (like seeing through smoke grenades).
That's not hard to guesss. We have a new modifier, [CritX], which gives you a [CritD]+[CritH] modifier at the same time. So fleet weapons have actually FIVE modifiers. And more crit severity or chance would be totally OP and would break the game forever in PVP since the new armors may have a +80% crit severity bonus. It's not the best course of action since most of us would change their weapon insteand of changing their armor, but it's perfectly understandable and it's for the sake of balance.
Would you like to be constantly one-shot? I know it's already doable but the omega set is weak; fleet armors aren't.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Also, if you're so concerned about criticals over anything else, then get yourself one of the Fleet Armors. I noticed one of them has a +80% (sic!) critical severity bonus.
1 [Dmg] mod is like raising the weapon 1 mark higher, so a mk IX [Dmg]x3 does the same damage as a mk XII, pretty good to me.
maybe a Dev should come out and make a Dev Blog to explain all those old AND new modifiers.
that 80% armor surely will be nerfed soon enough, i stick to my STF Armors for now.
When did I demand anything, and when did my post preclude any of this?
Yes and no. It's really a [CritH] + 1/2 [CritD], as it only adds a 10% boost to your critical damage score.
Again yes and no; the "[CritX]' one is an amalgam as I described above. Otherwise, weapons without that particular modifier are still 4 modifiers.
That said, I've been field testing the armor you mentioned on a toon NOT specc'd for Crit and after all is said and done, your Crit damage is around 150% +/-. In real world tests, some people might want to use the Chronodynamic Armor!
Who wouldn't? :rolleyes:
In short, part of what I was trying to communicate is A) The DMG modififer should be revisited.
Now, if the Fleet version had different visualizations, that would MOST CERTAINLY increase their popularity...
They did bump up Quad cannons base damage and, as I recall, made them Dmgx3 Acc.
Which is why I find it puzzling that they're recreating something people found underpowered after buffing the first four modifier space weapon.
Geko bumped that one up because it would have been outclassed by the Fleet weapons.
i do not remember addressing you directly?
...was speaking more generally.
don't mind me
Cryptic, please don't modify these weapons on the say so of people who appear to not have even tried the new gear yet.
How much DPS were you putting out?
How much are you putting out now?
What is the percentage increase of DPS you're now achieving?
Really? That might make them worth getting now... I'll have to look.
But yeah, making fleet weapons use the most useless mod in the game is a bit odd...
With standard Rare MK XII Energy Harness Armor equipped:
Sonic Antiproton Split Beam Beam Rifle MK XII [CritD] [KB3]
Beam setting: 50.3 Antiproton Damage x2 (105.8 DPS)
Auto-Targeting Beam 116 Antiproton Damage
Plasma Pulsewave Assault MK XI [Dmg]x2 [Dot3]
Pulsewave Setting 156.1 Plasma Damage (124.9 DPS)
Arcwave Setting 260.1 Plasma Damage (28.1 DPS)
With Adv. Fleet Energy Harness Armor [ResAll]x2 [HP] [Ene] equipped:
Adv. Fleet Antiproton Split Beam Rifle [Dmg]x3 [CritX]
Beam Setting 55.3 Antiproton Damage x2 (116.4 DPS)
Auto-Targeting Beam 127.6 Antiproton Damage
Adv. Fleet Plasma Pulsewave Assault [Dmg]x3 [CritX]
Pulsewave Setting 170.1 Plasma Damage (136.1 DPS)
Arcwave Setting 283.5 Plasma Damage (30.6 DPS)
There were a number of reasons why we designed the Fleet Advanced ground weapons the way we did. These weapons are not intended to eclipse STF gear in performance, and as such, we needed to be very careful about tuning them to be potentially useful without being a clear upgrade over STF equipment.
Currently, Fleet Advanced ground weapons are built with DMGx3 and one of three powerful additional modifiers (CritX, DoT3, or KB3). This should serve to make them clear upgrades over Dilithium store purchases, but not necessarily more effective than STF gear or other Very Rare items. The "Ultra Rare" item type is an indication of the number of modifiers on the item - it does not necessarily indicate that the item should be "better" than a "Very Rare" item in all circumstances.
While I certainly could have built more variations on these weapons - such as versions with more CritH or CritD instead of Dmg - there are multiple issues with that. First off, every additional modifier takes additional time to make, as well as additional time for QA to test for functionality and balance.
Second, generating additional item combinations can bloat the store - if I made every possible combination of CritH/CritD/Dmg/DoT3/KB3/CritX with four slots, we'd be dealing with a store that's almost impossible for players to browse. Of course, that's an extreme example, but we felt that these items were offering players a sufficient number of new options to purchase for the current stage of unlocking Starbase features.
Third, some other possible combinations on a four-property weapon can be very dangerous to game balance, especially in PvP. A weapon with three CritD modifiers as well as CritX, for example, would have deadly burst potential.
On the subject of unique models, there are Elite Fleet Weapons available at a higher Fleet level. These weapons have unique models and procs, and are intended to be more "unique" than the Advanced Fleet gear.
The STO design team is constantly evaluating balance changes. I'm certainly willing to consider the possibility of adding more weapons to the fleet system in the future, or potentially improving the damage boost provided by the [DMG] or [DMG]x3 properties.
THIS. especially with space weapons. the DAM mod is actually pretty good on ground though. on these fleet weapons, i would suggest making them DAM2/XXX2, instead of DAM3/XXX1
While balance is all well and good, that sounds very counter-intuitive. -_-
How much time and money was wasted making these items when most people may not use them. It seems like if you are going to spend your time making items for the game you would want to make stuff that everyone would wants.
Sort of. Each individual modifier (DMG, Crit, etc.) normally has an extra damage bonus built into it. This is what gives the weapon a damage bonus based on the quality level. This includes the Fleet Advanced weapons. There may be some other cases, however, where a weapon has a special modifier that doesn't have that damage bonus built into it. These are rare exceptions, mostly on unique weapons with unusual procs or that sort of thing, where there's intended to be a trade off where you get the cool proc instead of extra damage.
You're essentially right, I just want to provide the most complete answer I can.
I can certainly understand why this might be counter-intuitive. Every game that uses colors for quality or rarity levels has slightly different definitions of what constitutes each level. With STO, the primary way we determine the "color" of the item is the number of modifiers on it. There could definitely be cases where a Rare item outperforms a Very Rare item or whatnot - but that shouldn't happen very often, since having more properties is *usually* better.
There are always going to be some weapons that are better for certain character builds than others. For example, someone with Starship Energy Weapon Specialization will benefit more from CritD weapons than someone that lacks this skill.
I guess that's understandable, but it still seems a little weird. :P
I am satisfied with the ground weapons, not so much with the Fleet Armor and PSG though.
I think the sacrifice of set bonuses is what's excessive, actually.
The gimmick/power bonuses may be one thing.
However I think Fleet ARMOR perhaps should come with a built in remod.
(You can use a Fleet Weapon and still get the 3 piece bonus from an STF set since you can equip two weapons. Putting the remod on the armor forces a decision about losing the 2 piece set bonus if someone goes "all fleet.")