I tested this extensively. It's not true under any circumstance I can recreate. FAW will decloak an enemy target only if your Perception score outmatches their Stealth (aka Cloak) score. You are being spotted by the opponent because they have high perception, not because FAW is cheating.
ive been decloaked by faw a 10+ times this last week. it was by anyone using FAW, at ranges of 7 or greater, wile i was cloaked with more then 40 aux. i was other wise invisible to everyone else on the team when i was hit with a single random FAW hit.
to test further this myself, to make sure i wasn't imagining things, or that it was just a case of really strong stealth sight, i flew among a group of enemies at 4 range and closer for several seconds. i was undetected, i even used full impulse so my aux was as low as possible, about 30 with drive coil, and i was undetected by anyone. i stayed away from sci ships because i was pretty sure they would see me at that point, but from what i saw it was all random cruisers that had FAW'ed me at that point.
before they engaged the rest of my team i was undetected, until they started fireing off buffs like FAW, then i was promptly hit and decloaked. as long as there are other shoot able targets around for faw to hit, faw will hit you wile cloaked as well.
faw also doesn't appear to be taking any acc mods into account, at least when calculating chance to hit, and hasn't been since it stopped being 100% accurate.
test HE not clearing debuffs when cast on another person too, that bug apears back. a warp plasma debuff was not cleared from me the other day when someone was kind enough to use HE on me.
I'll look into this one. Cloak is designed to clear targets against hostile enemies. It sounds like the Focus Target function may not be doing that.
Just so I'm clear, this gives Carriers specifically a bit advantage against Cloaking enemies, correct? Because even if you have a cloaked target in Focus yourself, you're not able to attack them are you? But as I'm hearing it, Carrier pets will still follow cloaked focus targets?
Just wanna make sure I have my facts straight.
Yes. Pet will chase after cloaked targets like a hound dog. They'll evern chase after Donatra's Scimitar with the uber- cloaking it has. They don't attack. They just swarm around 'em.
I tested this extensively. It's not true under any circumstance I can recreate. FAW will decloak an enemy target only if your Perception score outmatches their Stealth (aka Cloak) score. You are being spotted by the opponent because they have high perception, not because FAW is cheating.
While this is good news if true I think the bigger issue is the original reason for this thread
and that is the "Pin Target" issue and ships being able to see cloaked ships what info have
you been able to dig up yet?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Banshee Bloodthristy Guild - <Lords of The Dead>
LvL 60 CW-Dragon Server
Wasn't Mav testing FAW decloaking? Did he post any videos and repro steps about it?
I have been asking for what feels like years now that the players who claim that FAW breaks cloak provide clean room repro steps and so far I haven't seen anything. (And I haven't been able to reproduce the issue myself.)
Different issue: Could someone please fix the "FAW ignores [Acc]" issue? (Maybe it's not flat out ignoring them and just applying +1% instead of +10%, but the effect is the same.)
Wasn't Mav testing FAW decloaking? Did he post any videos and repro steps about it?
I have been asking for what feels like years now that the players who claim that FAW breaks cloak provide clean room repro steps and so far I haven't seen anything. (And I haven't been able to reproduce the issue myself.)
Different issue: Could someone please fix the "FAW ignores [Acc]" issue? (Maybe it's not flat out ignoring them and just applying +1% instead of +10%, but the effect is the same.)
Yes I did. I got side tracked on a couple other non sto related projects, that and Jman has not yet answered me as to whether or not they want more videos and explanation threads. So I decided to conserve my energy and effort and never got around to making the vids. (I have the footage, but I don't have it compressed, and properly composed yet)
I will say this, like my previous videos the faw thing is ludicrously easy to reproduce, and even cursory testing should have caught this.
Rather than logging into sto after my workout (which I'll start in a few minutes) I'll get to work on getting the FAW, and latest test session videos edited, and then subsequently posted up.
Tested Pin Target last night with a couple fleet mates. There was nowhere I could run where they couldn't easily get within a couple KM of me with ease, even under full cloak.
The FAW cruiser flew by with the power up and jamming on the attack button, which didn't amount to a hill of beans. I'll see if I can test it again tonight with a teammate (I'm guessing that, yes, it will be as above, FAW will engage the both of us, even though I'll be under cloak and out stealsight range).
I've been able to send solid 100% repro steps on the Focus Target + Cloak issue to our Software guys. Hopefully we'll find a solution to that one quickly. In other news, I also just received a note from QA that the "Blue HUD for KDF" issue may be easily repro'd. And "easily repro'd" frequently means "easily fixed."
As for FAW... I'm honestly unable to come up with any scenario in which FAW will successfully target an enemy that I cannot detect. If Mavairo (or anyone else) has posted test videos illustrating the circumstances that cause this, I'm afraid I did not see them and would appreciate another link.
The power is flagged to require the caster to be able to Perceive the target. Put simply, if your Perception score doesn't "win" against an enemy's Stealth score, then the perception check on powers such as this will fail and prevent the power from targeting that enemy.
Here's a description of my latest testing:
TEST #1
* Cloaked target at the edge of perception range. Uncloaked target directly next to it.
* Set Aux high, can perceive. Set Aux low, cannot perceive.
* Starting with Aux high, activate FAW and begin a firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits both Targets.
* Immediately reduce Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually drops to the point that I can no longer perceive the target. At this point, FAW stops hitting the cloaked target for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.
TEST #2:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception
* Starting with Aux low, activate FAW and begin firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits single target.
* Immediately increase Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually rises to the point that I can perceive the 2nd target. At this point, FAW immediately begins hitting both targets for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.
TEST #3 and #4:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception * Set cloaked target as Focus Target
* Test with both Aux low and rising, and then Aux high and falling.
* Results of both tests were same as Test #1 and #2, respectively. Focus Target appears to have no bearing on FAW target selection.
Admittedly, these are limited tests. But this is purposeful in order to eliminate variables that cannot be easily accounted for or quantified. Scientific method, and all that jazz. If there is an additional variable that needs to be considered, I'm open to additional testing. But I need solid info, not more anecdotal evidence.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I have honestly never had any issue with faw hitting me while I was cloaked....
What is an issue is how fast you get targeted when you decloak and have no shields resist for the first 5+ seconds... and faw rips you a new one. I really don't see how that gets fixed though... its part of the problem if you want to decloak with in 3-4k from someone its best to make sure there Faw is not running. Guess I'm saying its not broken its just something you need to take into account if your running cloak.
I fly torp brels for fun at times... and I run them at full aux... at full aux I have never been hit by faw while I was cloaked... unless I do something dumb like fly within 3 k of a fawker.
FAW isnt it just blindly firing in all directions? Seems to me that is should be able to strike a cloaked vessel by chance (espeically if its close to an uncloaked targetable whatever)... as should csv.
By the way... I like the test results posts! Lets put some solid numbers and testing before anything gets changed. If it is working as intended dont change it!
The Pin Target thing... yeah it's broke... tested it with a friend... he could cloak all he wanted i still knew where he was).
As for FAW... I'm honestly unable to come up with any scenario in which FAW will successfully target an enemy that I cannot detect. If Mavairo (or anyone else) has posted test videos illustrating the circumstances that cause this, I'm afraid I did not see them and would appreciate another link.
The power is flagged to require the caster to be able to Perceive the target. Put simply, if your Perception score doesn't "win" against an enemy's Stealth score, then the perception check on powers such as this will fail and prevent the power from targeting that enemy.
Here's a description of my latest testing:
TEST #1
* Cloaked target at the edge of perception range. Uncloaked target directly next to it.
* Set Aux high, can perceive. Set Aux low, cannot perceive.
* Starting with Aux high, activate FAW and begin a firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits both Targets.
* Immediately reduce Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually drops to the point that I can no longer perceive the target. At this point, FAW stops hitting the cloaked target for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.
TEST #2:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception
* Starting with Aux low, activate FAW and begin firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits single target.
* Immediately increase Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually rises to the point that I can perceive the 2nd target. At this point, FAW immediately begins hitting both targets for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.
TEST #3 and #4:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception * Set cloaked target as Focus Target
* Test with both Aux low and rising, and then Aux high and falling.
* Results of both tests were same as Test #1 and #2, respectively. Focus Target appears to have no bearing on FAW target selection.
Admittedly, these are limited tests. But this is purposeful in order to eliminate variables that cannot be easily accounted for or quantified. Scientific method, and all that jazz. If there is an additional variable that needs to be considered, I'm open to additional testing. But I need solid info, not more anecdotal evidence.
when your aux was high enough to hit the cloaked target, could you also see the cloaked target, and select it? if FAW is hitting targets below the threshold were you can actually select the target, thats the problem.
im assuming this was shooting at test dummies, so they might always be selectable or something. doing this test against actual player ship might be needed. im sure many on opvp would oblige.
1 thought of 1 variable, doesn't the jemhadar deflector have a stealth sight bonus? i think it was the jemhadar deflector. maybe thats boosting stealth sight enough for faw to hit cloaked targets, but that stealth isn't being applied so you can actually see the cloaked ship yourself
i'll turn on fraps later and see if i can fly around cloaked when the 2 teams start to clash. it will be clear when im undetected, because the enemy team wouldn't miss the opportunity to blast the TRIBBLE out of me if they clash and im suddenly decloaked by FAW, wile i was previously undetected, well there ya go.
Further testing live with some of the PVP crew has been unable to get this issue to appear under controlled circumstances. If we can get a step-by-step list that indicates a procedure that will cause this to happen every time, we can debug from there. In the meantime we haven't been able to get this to show up internally and we didn't see it in live testing earlier today.
EDIT: Specifically the issue of FAW targeting cloaked vessels -- the issue with focus remaining on cloaked ships has been tracked down.
If you are able to get this to happen, we need to know exactly:
* Which version of FAW you used (1, 2, 3)
* How many levels your BOFF had in this FAW skill (probably 9, but make sure!)
* Which ship you used
* Which ship you hit that was cloaked
* Any other ships that were involved
* The relative locations of all ships involved (e.g. the cloaked ship was ahead of you and in between your ship and the uncloaked enemy, or the cloaked ship was behind you while the uncloaked enemy was ahead of you)
* Whether you had focus pinned on anyone
* Whether you had any allies, and whether they could see the cloaked ship
* Whether you used any power or ability that would increase your perception, such as Sensor Scan or an auxiliary power battery
* Whether anyone involved was moving, or if this happened while all ships were stationary
* Which weapon type you were using (phaser, disruptor, etc.; and beam array, dual beam bank, etc.)
If you are able to get this to happen repeatably, please let us know and we'll see if we can reproduce it. Bugs that we can't reproduce are very difficult to fix, because there is no way to know what causes them.
Further testing live with some of the PVP crew has been unable to get this issue to appear under controlled circumstances. If we can get a step-by-step list that indicates a procedure that will cause this to happen every time, we can debug from there. In the meantime we haven't been able to get this to show up internally and we didn't see it in live testing earlier today.
If you are able to get this to happen, we need to know exactly:
* Which version of FAW you used (1, 2, 3)
* How many levels your BOFF had in this FAW skill (probably 9, but make sure!)
* Which ship you used
* Which ship you hit that was cloaked
* Any other ships that were involved
* The relative locations of all ships involved (e.g. the cloaked ship was ahead of you and in between your ship and the uncloaked enemy, or the cloaked ship was behind you while the uncloaked enemy was ahead of you)
* Whether you had focus pinned on anyone
* Whether you had any allies, and whether they could see the cloaked ship
* Whether you used any power or ability that would increase your perception, such as Sensor Scan or an auxiliary power battery
* Whether anyone involved was moving, or if this happened while all ships were stationary
* Which weapon type you were using (phaser, disruptor, etc.; and beam array, dual beam bank, etc.)
If you are able to get this to happen repeatably, please let us know and we'll see if we can reproduce it. Bugs that we can't reproduce are very difficult to fix, because there is no way to know what causes them.
Thanks for your assistance.
To expand upon this I would like to repeat the test I did previously. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHpKFZs7z8k&feature=plcp I am going to need the original participants and we will walk through what happened step by step.
Also, anyone that does find this bug and gets it to repeat, Please Record This On Fraps! that way they have visual proof, as well, as details that text might miss. A picture is worth 1k words, a video is worth 30k easy.
I've been able to send solid 100% repro steps on the Focus Target + Cloak issue to our Software guys. Hopefully we'll find a solution to that one quickly. In other news, I also just received a note from QA that the "Blue HUD for KDF" issue may be easily repro'd. And "easily repro'd" frequently means "easily fixed."
As for FAW... I'm honestly unable to come up with any scenario in which FAW will successfully target an enemy that I cannot detect. If Mavairo (or anyone else) has posted test videos illustrating the circumstances that cause this, I'm afraid I did not see them and would appreciate another link.
The power is flagged to require the caster to be able to Perceive the target. Put simply, if your Perception score doesn't "win" against an enemy's Stealth score, then the perception check on powers such as this will fail and prevent the power from targeting that enemy.
Here's a description of my latest testing:
TEST #1
* Cloaked target at the edge of perception range. Uncloaked target directly next to it.
* Set Aux high, can perceive. Set Aux low, cannot perceive.
* Starting with Aux high, activate FAW and begin a firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits both Targets.
* Immediately reduce Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually drops to the point that I can no longer perceive the target. At this point, FAW stops hitting the cloaked target for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.
TEST #2:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception
* Starting with Aux low, activate FAW and begin firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits single target.
* Immediately increase Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually rises to the point that I can perceive the 2nd target. At this point, FAW immediately begins hitting both targets for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.
TEST #3 and #4:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception * Set cloaked target as Focus Target
* Test with both Aux low and rising, and then Aux high and falling.
* Results of both tests were same as Test #1 and #2, respectively. Focus Target appears to have no bearing on FAW target selection.
Admittedly, these are limited tests. But this is purposeful in order to eliminate variables that cannot be easily accounted for or quantified. Scientific method, and all that jazz. If there is an additional variable that needs to be considered, I'm open to additional testing. But I need solid info, not more anecdotal evidence.
I haven't noticed shnizz with faw. It's the fact that escorts/cruisers can pin a target (off mines or self-targets.)If they are cloaked, they can see distance and buffs even if they are 20-40km+++++ away. So if a escort pins a target (a bop as example) and they battle cloak and fly 15km away they can watch their distance and fly TRIBBLE to find them. Same is true for defiants. I was following one around earlier out of curiosity. You can argue, WELL maybe your bop should be faster, but I wouldn't be pulling from the fight if my bop wasn't screwed, so TRIBBLE the haters. J/S
They can see your buffs, so they can prepare before you act, ect ect. This cannot be the intended function. Like targetting threatening enemies first, set focus should change focus or send an alert of a part. Not follow them anywhere they go around a map.
It is not. And as I confirmed previously, a fix is in the works.
YAY!
after reading the previous posts im still a little confused, which issue is being fixed? the FAW decloak or the pinning cloaked targets or the pets chasing cloaked targets?
after reading the previous posts im still a little confused, which issue is being fixed? the FAW decloak or the pinning cloaked targets or the pets chasing cloaked targets?
thanks :P
Pinned target/cloak interaction. We do not yet have a case of repeatable steps for FAW against cloaked targets.
Further testing live with some of the PVP crew has been unable to get this issue to appear under controlled circumstances. If we can get a step-by-step list that indicates a procedure that will cause this to happen every time, we can debug from there. In the meantime we haven't been able to get this to show up internally and we didn't see it in live testing earlier today.
If you are able to get this to happen, we need to know exactly:
* Which version of FAW you used (1, 2, 3)
* How many levels your BOFF had in this FAW skill (probably 9, but make sure!)
* Which ship you used
* Which ship you hit that was cloaked
* Any other ships that were involved
* The relative locations of all ships involved (e.g. the cloaked ship was ahead of you and in between your ship and the uncloaked enemy, or the cloaked ship was behind you while the uncloaked enemy was ahead of you)
* Whether you had focus pinned on anyone
* Whether you had any allies, and whether they could see the cloaked ship
* Whether you used any power or ability that would increase your perception, such as Sensor Scan or an auxiliary power battery
* Whether anyone involved was moving, or if this happened while all ships were stationary
* Which weapon type you were using (phaser, disruptor, etc.; and beam array, dual beam bank, etc.)
If you are able to get this to happen repeatably, please let us know and we'll see if we can reproduce it. Bugs that we can't reproduce are very difficult to fix, because there is no way to know what causes them.
Thanks for your assistance.
i hope im not wasting your time claiming i saw a wolf by the sheep, or kdf players by fed players . the first time i was sure it happened was right after season 6, i was sure it was from faw. i recall at least 1 other person mention it happening to them too on this forum.
here's what i remember from the first incident, the only incident im really 'sure' about
i was in a cloaked vorcha R with 43 aux, 0 into stealth, 0 stealth consoles, with ether the omega or borg deflector
~7 units directly behind an odyssey of some kind, all its team mates were in front of it
1 got behind them all wile cloaked to attack from behind as the non cloakers on my team attacked up front
battle begins, every one starts shooting but me because im still cloaked
i see the odyssey hit targets the way faw does, and a shot flys back and hits me, decloaking me, at 6-7 range away.
i don't recall seeing the odyssey use any sci captain skills, or EPtA, which gives a stealth sight bonus for 5 seconds
doubt thats enough to go bug hunting with, but i don't see what else it could possibly have been. i would have noticed if it was a mine that exploded and decloaked me, unless it didn't draw and the sound effect didn't go off for some reason. both teams had just fully opened up on each other then, but ive never had a problem with stuff not drawing in pvp before.
on another FAW note, we believe that acc mods are not effecting the accuracy of FAW, and BO corectly, or at all. it would be cool if it was double checked!
Frankly I don't think there is a faw vs cloaked target issue....
When I play my klink I run high enough aux... it don't happen I don't get shot by faw when I am cloaked.
When I play my fed I see people do really really silly things with there cloak like try to follow 3-5k away... try to get to 2k before they attack... run full weapons and I assume 25 setting in aux ?
I could be wrong there may be a bug somewhere with some combo of faw + cloak targets... really though I have never seen it... I have never got faw flying my cloak properly. People get fawed cause they try to close to much before decloaking... and because they are not running enough power in there aux system.
I believe there's a serious case of mistaken interpretation going on in the video that Mavairo posted. If the target was stationary I may be convinced otherwise.
Ok, here's the explanation, I hope it makes sense...
FAW -will- decloak a target, but it is not -causing- random cloak fails under any circumstance I can recreate. Don't take that out of context, read on...
If a Cloaked target comes within the perception range of another player, their cloak will not immediately be disabled. It takes acting against the cloaked target (placing them in combat) in order for the cloak to actually get turned off.
FAW will do this reliably because it auto-acquires targets. But it still requires that the user was able to perceive you. Meaning that his Perception value out-stripped your Stealth value. It's not because the ability can hit cloaked targets, it's because it will hit anything that is a valid target, and that includes cloaked-but-perceivable enemies.
Cloaking is not an automatic invisibility button. It is just like Stealth in most other MMOs - you are only undetectable for as long as the enemy can't beat your Stealth score with their Perception score. But them seeing you, and them acting in a way that removes your Stealth, are two entirely separate acts.
FAW performs that act automatically, without the conscious forethought or intervention of the user. This may be the heart of the complaint, but it has been completely misrepresented if so.
Now, having said all that, I am not dismissing the claims that have been made. But until somebody can accurately offer me a solid repro case, we can't really move forward with investigating it further.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
What if there is problem elsewhere ? What if you win sensor vs. stealth roll, but you do not instantly see the target ? So technically, the system thinks "you see" the target, but you do not see it on screen, because there is some delay, bug or whatever?
It got me thinking, because I was playing with my anti-stealth nebula the other day, and even with my tachyon gear,sensor stuff and max aux I couldn't detect **** even though I knew there are some Ker Rats around. Well maybe I "saw" them, just the system didn't show me.
P.S. Buff the tachyon gear so its usable in PvP !
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I believe there's a serious case of mistaken interpretation going on in the video that Mavairo posted. If the target was stationary I may be convinced otherwise.
Ok, here's the explanation, I hope it makes sense...
FAW -will- decloak a target, but it is not -causing- random cloak fails under any circumstance I can recreate. Don't take that out of context, read on...
If a Cloaked target comes within the perception range of another player, their cloak will not immediately be disabled. It takes acting against the cloaked target (placing them in combat) in order for the cloak to actually get turned off.
FAW will do this reliably because it auto-acquires targets. But it still requires that the user was able to perceive you. Meaning that his Perception value out-stripped your Stealth value. It's not because the ability can hit cloaked targets, it's because it will hit anything that is a valid target, and that includes cloaked-but-perceivable enemies.
Cloaking is not an automatic invisibility button. It is just like Stealth in most other MMOs - you are only undetectable for as long as the enemy can't beat your Stealth score with their Perception score. But them seeing you, and them acting in a way that removes your Stealth, are two entirely separate acts.
FAW performs that act automatically, without the conscious forethought or intervention of the user. This may be the heart of the complaint, but it has been completely misrepresented if so.
Now, having said all that, I am not dismissing the claims that have been made. But until somebody can accurately offer me a solid repro case, we can't really move forward with investigating it further.
As far as this relates to the KDF I'd like to point out a few things that happen in relation to KDF cloaked players vs Federation ones. As this perception you speak of I have noticed how the federation players can attack you if they can in fact see you. On the other hand when I see a cloaked defiant flying around cloaked with my perception I can target them but I cannot fire at them. This might be another issue entirely but it sounds a lot like the problem I have but in reverse.
I have a theory about FAW but since I don't know how exactly stealth detection works I have no idea if it makes sense. Borticus you told us FAW compares your perception value to their stealth. Does this formula consider the range to the target? Is the range in the perception or stealth value or is it a third factor? Could it be, that FAW assumes the target is right in front of you when it makes the perception check?
If a Cloaked target comes within the perception range of another player, their cloak will not immediately be disabled. It takes acting against the cloaked target (placing them in combat) in order for the cloak to actually get turned off.
seems that the problem is in automatic and instant action done by FAW. If a cloaked ship comes falls within the criteria of detection for a nanosecond, and this happens very often, it will not be seen by other players.
FAW will use this nanosecond window to target-fire-decloak the cloaker.
Without FAW, you will need a second or two to lock target and fire manually, and the cloaked ship is not within the perception that long.
Please fix this by giving FAW a delay on firing on targets. Require it to have target lock for one second before firing at a target.
It's OK that a boff with no other task should be able to see and fire on a cloaked ship in shorter time than the captain, but instant retaliation is just silly...
The sheer numbers of ways you can be detected while cloaked is insane. Borticus's theory makes alot of sense to me. Fire at will fires at alot of different targets it can see. Odds are you are being seen if FAW is hitting you. It's not a bug. It's you not being sneaky enough.
Besides. You are Klingon (or in a Defiant which, as a warship, makes it an honorary Klingon.). If you are close enough that FAW can hit you then you are close enough your cannons can hit them. Decloak and ride to glory brothers!
on another FAW note, we believe that acc mods are not effecting the accuracy of FAW, and BO corectly, or at all. it would be cool if it was double checked!
that would be actually a great fix. Faw is NOT taking into account the acc mod. I have disruptors mkxi acc x3 and on faw they miss like crazy. Swapped with crth x3 and same result in faw. I even saved some logs with it. I know Mancom was first to mention it few months ago and I think also Roach.
Could we pls have somebody looking into that?
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Comments
ive been decloaked by faw a 10+ times this last week. it was by anyone using FAW, at ranges of 7 or greater, wile i was cloaked with more then 40 aux. i was other wise invisible to everyone else on the team when i was hit with a single random FAW hit.
to test further this myself, to make sure i wasn't imagining things, or that it was just a case of really strong stealth sight, i flew among a group of enemies at 4 range and closer for several seconds. i was undetected, i even used full impulse so my aux was as low as possible, about 30 with drive coil, and i was undetected by anyone. i stayed away from sci ships because i was pretty sure they would see me at that point, but from what i saw it was all random cruisers that had FAW'ed me at that point.
before they engaged the rest of my team i was undetected, until they started fireing off buffs like FAW, then i was promptly hit and decloaked. as long as there are other shoot able targets around for faw to hit, faw will hit you wile cloaked as well.
faw also doesn't appear to be taking any acc mods into account, at least when calculating chance to hit, and hasn't been since it stopped being 100% accurate.
test HE not clearing debuffs when cast on another person too, that bug apears back. a warp plasma debuff was not cleared from me the other day when someone was kind enough to use HE on me.
i hope cryptic makes a solution
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes. Pet will chase after cloaked targets like a hound dog. They'll evern chase after Donatra's Scimitar with the uber- cloaking it has. They don't attack. They just swarm around 'em.
While this is good news if true I think the bigger issue is the original reason for this thread
and that is the "Pin Target" issue and ships being able to see cloaked ships what info have
you been able to dig up yet?
Banshee
Bloodthristy
Guild - <Lords of The Dead>
LvL 60 CW-Dragon Server
I have been asking for what feels like years now that the players who claim that FAW breaks cloak provide clean room repro steps and so far I haven't seen anything. (And I haven't been able to reproduce the issue myself.)
Different issue: Could someone please fix the "FAW ignores [Acc]" issue? (Maybe it's not flat out ignoring them and just applying +1% instead of +10%, but the effect is the same.)
Yes I did. I got side tracked on a couple other non sto related projects, that and Jman has not yet answered me as to whether or not they want more videos and explanation threads. So I decided to conserve my energy and effort and never got around to making the vids. (I have the footage, but I don't have it compressed, and properly composed yet)
I will say this, like my previous videos the faw thing is ludicrously easy to reproduce, and even cursory testing should have caught this.
Rather than logging into sto after my workout (which I'll start in a few minutes) I'll get to work on getting the FAW, and latest test session videos edited, and then subsequently posted up.
The FAW cruiser flew by with the power up and jamming on the attack button, which didn't amount to a hill of beans. I'll see if I can test it again tonight with a teammate (I'm guessing that, yes, it will be as above, FAW will engage the both of us, even though I'll be under cloak and out stealsight range).
As for FAW... I'm honestly unable to come up with any scenario in which FAW will successfully target an enemy that I cannot detect. If Mavairo (or anyone else) has posted test videos illustrating the circumstances that cause this, I'm afraid I did not see them and would appreciate another link.
The power is flagged to require the caster to be able to Perceive the target. Put simply, if your Perception score doesn't "win" against an enemy's Stealth score, then the perception check on powers such as this will fail and prevent the power from targeting that enemy.
Here's a description of my latest testing:
TEST #1
* Cloaked target at the edge of perception range. Uncloaked target directly next to it.
* Set Aux high, can perceive. Set Aux low, cannot perceive.
* Starting with Aux high, activate FAW and begin a firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits both Targets.
* Immediately reduce Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually drops to the point that I can no longer perceive the target. At this point, FAW stops hitting the cloaked target for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.
TEST #2:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception
* Starting with Aux low, activate FAW and begin firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits single target.
* Immediately increase Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually rises to the point that I can perceive the 2nd target. At this point, FAW immediately begins hitting both targets for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.
TEST #3 and #4:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception
* Set cloaked target as Focus Target
* Test with both Aux low and rising, and then Aux high and falling.
* Results of both tests were same as Test #1 and #2, respectively. Focus Target appears to have no bearing on FAW target selection.
Admittedly, these are limited tests. But this is purposeful in order to eliminate variables that cannot be easily accounted for or quantified. Scientific method, and all that jazz. If there is an additional variable that needs to be considered, I'm open to additional testing. But I need solid info, not more anecdotal evidence.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
What is an issue is how fast you get targeted when you decloak and have no shields resist for the first 5+ seconds... and faw rips you a new one. I really don't see how that gets fixed though... its part of the problem if you want to decloak with in 3-4k from someone its best to make sure there Faw is not running. Guess I'm saying its not broken its just something you need to take into account if your running cloak.
I fly torp brels for fun at times... and I run them at full aux... at full aux I have never been hit by faw while I was cloaked... unless I do something dumb like fly within 3 k of a fawker.
By the way... I like the test results posts! Lets put some solid numbers and testing before anything gets changed. If it is working as intended dont change it!
The Pin Target thing... yeah it's broke... tested it with a friend... he could cloak all he wanted i still knew where he was).
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
when your aux was high enough to hit the cloaked target, could you also see the cloaked target, and select it? if FAW is hitting targets below the threshold were you can actually select the target, thats the problem.
im assuming this was shooting at test dummies, so they might always be selectable or something. doing this test against actual player ship might be needed. im sure many on opvp would oblige.
1 thought of 1 variable, doesn't the jemhadar deflector have a stealth sight bonus? i think it was the jemhadar deflector. maybe thats boosting stealth sight enough for faw to hit cloaked targets, but that stealth isn't being applied so you can actually see the cloaked ship yourself
i'll turn on fraps later and see if i can fly around cloaked when the 2 teams start to clash. it will be clear when im undetected, because the enemy team wouldn't miss the opportunity to blast the TRIBBLE out of me
EDIT: Specifically the issue of FAW targeting cloaked vessels -- the issue with focus remaining on cloaked ships has been tracked down.
If you are able to get this to happen, we need to know exactly:
* Which version of FAW you used (1, 2, 3)
* How many levels your BOFF had in this FAW skill (probably 9, but make sure!)
* Which ship you used
* Which ship you hit that was cloaked
* Any other ships that were involved
* The relative locations of all ships involved (e.g. the cloaked ship was ahead of you and in between your ship and the uncloaked enemy, or the cloaked ship was behind you while the uncloaked enemy was ahead of you)
* Whether you had focus pinned on anyone
* Whether you had any allies, and whether they could see the cloaked ship
* Whether you used any power or ability that would increase your perception, such as Sensor Scan or an auxiliary power battery
* Whether anyone involved was moving, or if this happened while all ships were stationary
* Which weapon type you were using (phaser, disruptor, etc.; and beam array, dual beam bank, etc.)
If you are able to get this to happen repeatably, please let us know and we'll see if we can reproduce it. Bugs that we can't reproduce are very difficult to fix, because there is no way to know what causes them.
Thanks for your assistance.
To expand upon this I would like to repeat the test I did previously.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHpKFZs7z8k&feature=plcp I am going to need the original participants and we will walk through what happened step by step.
Also, anyone that does find this bug and gets it to repeat, Please Record This On Fraps! that way they have visual proof, as well, as details that text might miss. A picture is worth 1k words, a video is worth 30k easy.
I haven't noticed shnizz with faw. It's the fact that escorts/cruisers can pin a target (off mines or self-targets.)If they are cloaked, they can see distance and buffs even if they are 20-40km+++++ away. So if a escort pins a target (a bop as example) and they battle cloak and fly 15km away they can watch their distance and fly TRIBBLE to find them. Same is true for defiants. I was following one around earlier out of curiosity. You can argue, WELL maybe your bop should be faster, but I wouldn't be pulling from the fight if my bop wasn't screwed, so TRIBBLE the haters. J/S
They can see your buffs, so they can prepare before you act, ect ect. This cannot be the intended function. Like targetting threatening enemies first, set focus should change focus or send an alert of a part. Not follow them anywhere they go around a map.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It is not. And as I confirmed previously, a fix is in the works.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
YAY!
after reading the previous posts im still a little confused, which issue is being fixed? the FAW decloak or the pinning cloaked targets or the pets chasing cloaked targets?
thanks :P
Pinned target/cloak interaction. We do not yet have a case of repeatable steps for FAW against cloaked targets.
i hope im not wasting your time claiming i saw a wolf by the sheep, or kdf players by fed players
here's what i remember from the first incident, the only incident im really 'sure' about
i was in a cloaked vorcha R with 43 aux, 0 into stealth, 0 stealth consoles, with ether the omega or borg deflector
~7 units directly behind an odyssey of some kind, all its team mates were in front of it
1 got behind them all wile cloaked to attack from behind as the non cloakers on my team attacked up front
battle begins, every one starts shooting but me because im still cloaked
i see the odyssey hit targets the way faw does, and a shot flys back and hits me, decloaking me, at 6-7 range away.
i don't recall seeing the odyssey use any sci captain skills, or EPtA, which gives a stealth sight bonus for 5 seconds
doubt thats enough to go bug hunting with, but i don't see what else it could possibly have been. i would have noticed if it was a mine that exploded and decloaked me, unless it didn't draw and the sound effect didn't go off for some reason. both teams had just fully opened up on each other then, but ive never had a problem with stuff not drawing in pvp before.
on another FAW note, we believe that acc mods are not effecting the accuracy of FAW, and BO corectly, or at all. it would be cool if it was double checked!
When I play my klink I run high enough aux... it don't happen I don't get shot by faw when I am cloaked.
When I play my fed I see people do really really silly things with there cloak like try to follow 3-5k away... try to get to 2k before they attack... run full weapons and I assume 25 setting in aux ?
I could be wrong there may be a bug somewhere with some combo of faw + cloak targets... really though I have never seen it... I have never got faw flying my cloak properly. People get fawed cause they try to close to much before decloaking... and because they are not running enough power in there aux system.
simple explination.
probably wrong though.
Make it x2!
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Ok, here's the explanation, I hope it makes sense...
FAW -will- decloak a target, but it is not -causing- random cloak fails under any circumstance I can recreate. Don't take that out of context, read on...
If a Cloaked target comes within the perception range of another player, their cloak will not immediately be disabled. It takes acting against the cloaked target (placing them in combat) in order for the cloak to actually get turned off.
FAW will do this reliably because it auto-acquires targets. But it still requires that the user was able to perceive you. Meaning that his Perception value out-stripped your Stealth value. It's not because the ability can hit cloaked targets, it's because it will hit anything that is a valid target, and that includes cloaked-but-perceivable enemies.
Cloaking is not an automatic invisibility button. It is just like Stealth in most other MMOs - you are only undetectable for as long as the enemy can't beat your Stealth score with their Perception score. But them seeing you, and them acting in a way that removes your Stealth, are two entirely separate acts.
FAW performs that act automatically, without the conscious forethought or intervention of the user. This may be the heart of the complaint, but it has been completely misrepresented if so.
Now, having said all that, I am not dismissing the claims that have been made. But until somebody can accurately offer me a solid repro case, we can't really move forward with investigating it further.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
What if there is problem elsewhere ? What if you win sensor vs. stealth roll, but you do not instantly see the target ? So technically, the system thinks "you see" the target, but you do not see it on screen, because there is some delay, bug or whatever?
It got me thinking, because I was playing with my anti-stealth nebula the other day, and even with my tachyon gear,sensor stuff and max aux I couldn't detect **** even though I knew there are some Ker Rats around. Well maybe I "saw" them, just the system didn't show me.
P.S. Buff the tachyon gear so its usable in PvP !
As far as this relates to the KDF I'd like to point out a few things that happen in relation to KDF cloaked players vs Federation ones. As this perception you speak of I have noticed how the federation players can attack you if they can in fact see you. On the other hand when I see a cloaked defiant flying around cloaked with my perception I can target them but I cannot fire at them. This might be another issue entirely but it sounds a lot like the problem I have but in reverse.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
seems that the problem is in automatic and instant action done by FAW. If a cloaked ship comes falls within the criteria of detection for a nanosecond, and this happens very often, it will not be seen by other players.
FAW will use this nanosecond window to target-fire-decloak the cloaker.
Without FAW, you will need a second or two to lock target and fire manually, and the cloaked ship is not within the perception that long.
Please fix this by giving FAW a delay on firing on targets. Require it to have target lock for one second before firing at a target.
It's OK that a boff with no other task should be able to see and fire on a cloaked ship in shorter time than the captain, but instant retaliation is just silly...
Besides. You are Klingon (or in a Defiant which, as a warship, makes it an honorary Klingon.). If you are close enough that FAW can hit you then you are close enough your cannons can hit them. Decloak and ride to glory brothers!
Master using it and you can have this!
Be black on the right side. Add properly colored Cheron to the game today!
that would be actually a great fix. Faw is NOT taking into account the acc mod. I have disruptors mkxi acc x3 and on faw they miss like crazy. Swapped with crth x3 and same result in faw. I even saved some logs with it. I know Mancom was first to mention it few months ago and I think also Roach.
Could we pls have somebody looking into that?
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...