To sum up the main design flaw with kemo... is its an AOE that GROWS in strength the more targets it hits. Where as most AOEs designed by game companies (including Cryptic) in general do less dmg the more targets they hit. Kemo dmg is increased exponentially as the number of targets go up due to the 1k AOE with unlimited targeting.
“Your mines didn't all hit at once. That is the point. The kemo hits do all hit at one time. The server doesn't get 100 ticks to calculate it. The mines land over 3-5s. The kemos happen instantly and it has to calculate radius off each hit because it can chain... your mine hits don't.”
That’s incorrect the mines hit all at once in 1 second like Kemo. The test I just ran had 122 mine hits in 1 second and would have been more if the first few hits didn't blow up the weak ships. The timeframe was so short Omega Shearing didn’t get time to kick in. Well it managed to get 11 hits before everything died. There is no way it was 3 – 5 seconds. It was 1 second from first hit to everything being dead in the combat log. Like I said kemo isn’t anything special it works in the same way as many forms of AoE.
“You get 2 kemo hits because it is an AOE. Its working as intended. (its simply a terrible design)”
We have already been over this it’s not working as intended. First it’s blowing up my own mines which it should not do. 2nd it’s only getting 2 hits even if I hit the target 10 to 100 times within the timeframe.
“Right now you get MASSIVE reward for lining up additional targets in a 1k Kemo ring of death.”
That is no different from all the other AoE weapons. You should try a chain shockwave. Each shockwave hits a target and that target itself triggers a new shockwave. I just got a massive reward for lining up additional target with my 3km blast torpedo. Same for my large blast mines all without kemo.
I can believe reduced base torpedo damage during THY is not a bug but that don't make it right, especially in today's game. They need to re-think and boost torpedo damage, not only in THY situations but in general. I used to like seeing 4 torpedoes fly from my ship. Now I have to re-think the build of all my ships to see if it is even worth it at all.
I can believe reduced base torpedo damage during THY is not a bug but that don't make it right, especially in today's game. They need to re-think and boost torpedo damage, not only in THY situations but in general. I used to like seeing 4 torpedoes fly from my ship. Now I have to re-think the build of all my ships to see if it is even worth it at all.
It is not a bug no. Nothing to believe that is the way it is... if the old forums worked I would point you to 20 different dev posts that explained it.
Every version of HY DOES provide more DMG overall. However the base dmg of each torp fired does drop after HY 1.
Should they redesign it ? Perhaps HY has been terrible for 4+ years, its something they should have done when they looked at spread again imo. Having said that... not being an AOE HY is mostly a forget me skill until something more major changes in the game anyway.
I can believe reduced base torpedo damage during THY is not a bug but that don't make it right, especially in today's game. They need to re-think and boost torpedo damage, not only in THY situations but in general. I used to like seeing 4 torpedoes fly from my ship. Now I have to re-think the build of all my ships to see if it is even worth it at all.
Every version of HY DOES provide more DMG overall. However the base dmg of each torp fired does drop after HY 1.
The base damage also drops with HY 1 with around 1 third of torpedo's in game.
EDIT:
I have never seen any devs posts in the old forums explain why different torpedoes are getting different damage boosts from High Yield. Excluding the unique torpedoes which did get explained.
There was at least one conversation about the topic... I am not talking about the latest revamp. You have to go back to when Cryptic was owned by Atari, there is no record of that that I'm aware of at this point. I am pretty sure those predated even snix who has been gone for a long time already.
I do hear what you are saying. No Science skills are not REQUIRED to make torps viable. However they very much help, torps are one hit weapons meaning they get massive boosts from sci skills that degrade defense and resistance.
The 75%... I can tell you why it exists. Because before the game launched and players got there hands on STO beta... it took all of a day for the first person to realize energy was stupid. (I'm not kidding at all, there was no kinetic resist on shields early beta). So guess what all the game was at that point was throw some torps around and watch people blow up. So Cryptic decided people should have to use energy to get though the shield first. Thing was back then energy didn't mean 1,000,000 DPS faw boats... or 50k DPS Strings of Cannon blaps. Eating someones hull with energy in STO 1.0 was NOT easy to do... There where also not 1001 passives that would keep your shield facing up... There was no Tac team to spin your shield facing. So if you used energy and got someones shield down, if they didn't turn you could fire your HY torps in on the hull and finish them. My point is the issue is NOT the resist on the shields. (I can still drop a shield facing with ONE torpedo on a good torp boat... which means anyone with a spread one and unbuffed torps can do the same) The issue is these days... when someones shield facing hits zero the passive rep stuffs, the console heals, the Intel Spec... ect ect ect all replace that lost shielding almost instantly. If they don't the player hits tac team and the shield facing is also replaced. (with tac team in now means a torp needs to eat in most cases 48k in shields instead of 12k on a player anyway) That is what has made it hard for people to drop shields for torps.
Honestly the game was a lot more fun when it was about dropping a facing so you could slid in some Burst dmg. (which used to be mainly torps... with a few people using overloads for the same effect.) Its all the magic heal passives and shield spins that have destroyed torps not the shield resistance.
What has killed torpedos and the game in general... Reps/Doffs/Silly Uni Consoles (that includes teh spire/res/embassy/mine consoles as well as well as Tac Team. Remove all of that stuff and the game would be 10x more fun.
i wasn't around for beta. if what you say is true then you and i and most everyone here are saying the same thing. Torpedoes need to be seriously addressed to make them current with the times.
i wasn't around for beta. if what you say is true then you and i and most everyone here are saying the same thing. Torpedoes need to be seriously addressed to make them current with the times.
Sidenote: those original torpedoes sound fun.
I do agree. Torps in general could use a once over. Don't get me wrong I wish Cryptic would spend a lot of time on a lot of the base systems and use there noddles a bit more when they come up with new things like Kemo.
I am simply pointing out that the basic torpedos are not likely to get much if any love. Just like Cryptic isn't going to go back and really look at things like Tet and Phaser procs, or beam power usage and the like. There systems are a mess because the newer devs really don't understand what the first 10 rounds of devs have done. At least that is how I see the issue.
Yes the 1.0 version of STO was a ton of fun. That is why when they did the April fools gag where they installed V1.0 on the test server people where honestly excited and hoped it would stay there. The first round of devs had things pretty well right.. even if ti was mostly by accident. The first 6 months of so of STO where a ton of fun. Sure there where some bugs, but there where not as many game breaking things as there are at this point. Strip away the last 4 years of junk Cryptic has heaped on and the base of the game is fun and a base where torps do exactly what you would expect.
I wonder, is APB working properly for torpedoes? I've been toying with APB and it always resulted to a DPS loss for me.
I have a feeling that while APB does apply to a torp hit, it only applies after the torp hits (meaning the torp in question doesn't benefit from the debuff). Then it is gone by the time the next torp hits.
Although I applaud your efforts to figure that out and post it, I have to disagree with both your math and conclusions.
First off - power levels do not affect torpedo damage.
Percentages aren't added, they're multiplied (that way multiple bonuses become less effective with each additional bonus).
To be quite honest, although I think they could be tweaked just a bit, I generally like the way they've handled torpedos.
Quantum torpedos give the greatest bang for the reload time. The really high damaging torpedos, can be destroyed en-route to target to compensate for their insane damage. Others have special abilities (some low damaging ones that don't scale have a greater shield penetration, or radiation damage bonus, etc.).
.
Wait WHAT? Sorry you are so off Neutronics cannot be targeted and they are far superior to quantums in everyway. As far as reload times gee put a couple of purple tac officers with reduce cooldown of torpedos. I had all fleet Quantums and when I got my first rep Neu scrapped every quantum I had. Neutronics are not a low damage torpedo arguably they are the only torpedo even close to what canon torpedo does damage wise.
That alone would mean that at the very least those pesky 1% slivers of shield that regen just before your torp hits would not stop the massive kinetic impact and explosion. That at least seems more realistic that a 1% facing stopping a massive HY torp dead in its tracks.
The issue is not really the torps themselves, it's how they interact with shields that needs to be addressed.
I wonder, is APB working properly for torpedoes? I've been toying with APB and it always resulted to a DPS loss for me.
I have a feeling that while APB does apply to a torp hit, it only applies after the torp hits (meaning the torp in question doesn't benefit from the debuff). Then it is gone by the time the next torp hits.
That is correct APB lasts for 5s after the hit that applies it. If you are running a full torp boat that isn't an issue because you will be firing a torp a second. If you are not running a full torp boat then your energy weapons should keep applying it anyway.
So the first hit doesn't apply but it is still a good skill to run. If your not in a full on stealth bomber build just put one 360 or a cutting beam in the back or something and the problem is solved.
I can believe reduced base torpedo damage during THY is not a bug but that don't make it right, especially in today's game. They need to re-think and boost torpedo damage, not only in THY situations but in general. I used to like seeing 4 torpedoes fly from my ship. Now I have to re-think the build of all my ships to see if it is even worth it at all.
It is not a bug no. Nothing to believe that is the way it is... if the old forums worked I would point you to 20 different dev posts that explained it.
Every version of HY DOES provide more DMG overall. However the base dmg of each torp fired does drop after HY 1.
Should they redesign it ? Perhaps HY has been terrible for 4+ years, its something they should have done when they looked at spread again imo. Having said that... not being an AOE HY is mostly a forget me skill until something more major changes in the game anyway.
I believe that I had provided you a link to a Reddit thread where there were realistic conditions that HY1/TS1 would do more damage than HY3/TS3 for salvo torps. Can the same be said about any of the energy weapon abilities? Can FaW1 out-damage FaW3 consistently?
Also, thanks to SARoss and Timberwolf for their bug discovery with the AP torpedo thingy, we now know that the shared torpedo cool down CAN be removed, as well as the limitation on how many individual torpedoes can be fired per second.
It has never been a question that it was possible to remove the torpedo global cool down. Its simply a terrible idea. If they did that the torpedo dmg nerf would follow the next week. Anyone thinking that would be a good change needs to think that through a bit. Imagine if my 90k Torp boat could fire 3-4 torps at a time instead of 1... with doffs it would average 3 out every second... which wouldn't be a 3x dmg boost but it would beat least 2x. So ya 180k dps torp boats... sounds like a great balance change. I know most people don't get that out of torps, still it would be crazy broken.
I am on board with asking Cryptic to give torpedos a once over... but Cryptic isn't that wise, don't ask for crazy things they might just do it and break the game even more then it already is.
As for HY 1 and 3 not being equal... like I was saying before the system was designed when this game didn't have stupid rep torps and a game where CRTD was racked up to a point where a Crit from a HY 1 could out dmg 4 HY 3 torps. Sure that is the game we have though... if you have a ton of CRTD yes HY 1 is 10x better then HY 3. I know seems stupid but remember until recently (romulans and the spire aren't that old) the idea of having CRTD enough for that to be a reality didn't exist.
Should they go over HY ... sure... frankly though its going to be just as borked cause there is no way to fix that skill with all the crazy torps in the game at this point. I would rather see them remove HY as it exists and replace it with a kinetic dmg boost ... Something like "Kinetic Targeting" Level 1 could improve All kinetic dmg 10% for 10s, and during those 10s all torps that can create destructables should create ones = to HY 1 versions now... and II could do 20% and III could do 30% dmg.
That would fix the odd balance reason numbers... and give torp boats a boost that doesn't involve crazy ideas like removing globals.
Maybe keep the special rep torpedoes as they are and instead focus on improving the "common" ones. Even if it would be through crafting modifiers, like reduced gdc, rapid fire (reduced cooldown), wide arc etc, or special torpedo projects.
I kinda hate that the meta is either go full energy or full torpedoes and the mixed aka star-trekish builds are labled as "RP" because they are not "optimal".
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Maybe keep the special rep torpedoes as they are and instead focus on improving the "common" ones. Even if it would be through crafting modifiers, like reduced gdc, rapid fire (reduced cooldown), wide arc etc, or special torpedo projects.
I kinda hate that the meta is either go full energy or full torpedoes and the mixed aka star-trekish builds are labled as "RP" because they are not "optimal".
I must agree with improving what I call the basic 6 types of torpedoes as well as sharing your disdain for mixed canon builds being "not optimal" or "non-competive". This of course is not the fault of those who say such things. I put that on the doorstep of the devs. When phaser relays have to share console space with quantum chambers, neither do as well as stacking the deck full of either one only.
Maybe keep the special rep torpedoes as they are and instead focus on improving the "common" ones. Even if it would be through crafting modifiers, like reduced gdc, rapid fire (reduced cooldown), wide arc etc, or special torpedo projects.
I kinda hate that the meta is either go full energy or full torpedoes and the mixed aka star-trekish builds are labled as "RP" because they are not "optimal".
Blame the tactical consoles on only buffing one or the other on that one. Or the fact that phasers and photons compete for fitting space. A few unique consoles that buff energy and kinetics at the same time would make a mix alot more appealing.
As would dealing with that whole sliver of shield makes the whole torpedo a waste.
Maybe keep the special rep torpedoes as they are and instead focus on improving the "common" ones. Even if it would be through crafting modifiers, like reduced gdc, rapid fire (reduced cooldown), wide arc etc, or special torpedo projects.
I kinda hate that the meta is either go full energy or full torpedoes and the mixed aka star-trekish builds are labled as "RP" because they are not "optimal".
Blame the tactical consoles on only buffing one or the other on that one. Or the fact that phasers and photons compete for fitting space. A few unique consoles that buff energy and kinetics at the same time would make a mix alot more appealing.
As would dealing with that whole sliver of shield makes the whole torpedo a waste.
I think the consoles are a very small reason why it isn't common to mix energy and kinetics. The Skill Tree and BOff slots required to make such a build work is what is limiting it.
i'm surprised no one has brought this up but a high yield torpedo that reduces the yield of the torpedo then fires several is not a high yield torpedo. that's called a spread. high yield should turn every torpedo type into a single "high yield" targetable projectile. this never made any sense to me
also for @bobs1111 if you want to see more broken torp mechanics pick a simple foundry space accolade kill mission and sit back firing nothing but high yield tricobalt, watch and just count the problems you encounter. My favorite is after a time they just stop working, they won't miss, they are reported in the combat log, sometimes registering as critical hits, but apply no damage at all. unless you are close the impact of course, then YOU receive damage.
Comments
We have already been over this it’s not working as intended. First it’s blowing up my own mines which it should not do. 2nd it’s only getting 2 hits even if I hit the target 10 to 100 times within the timeframe.
That is no different from all the other AoE weapons. You should try a chain shockwave. Each shockwave hits a target and that target itself triggers a new shockwave. I just got a massive reward for lining up additional target with my 3km blast torpedo. Same for my large blast mines all without kemo.
It is not a bug no. Nothing to believe that is the way it is... if the old forums worked I would point you to 20 different dev posts that explained it.
Every version of HY DOES provide more DMG overall. However the base dmg of each torp fired does drop after HY 1.
Should they redesign it ? Perhaps HY has been terrible for 4+ years, its something they should have done when they looked at spread again imo. Having said that... not being an AOE HY is mostly a forget me skill until something more major changes in the game anyway.
EDIT:
I have never seen any devs posts in the old forums explain why different torpedoes are getting different damage boosts from High Yield. Excluding the unique torpedoes which did get explained.
i wasn't around for beta. if what you say is true then you and i and most everyone here are saying the same thing. Torpedoes need to be seriously addressed to make them current with the times.
Sidenote: those original torpedoes sound fun.
I do agree. Torps in general could use a once over. Don't get me wrong I wish Cryptic would spend a lot of time on a lot of the base systems and use there noddles a bit more when they come up with new things like Kemo.
I am simply pointing out that the basic torpedos are not likely to get much if any love. Just like Cryptic isn't going to go back and really look at things like Tet and Phaser procs, or beam power usage and the like. There systems are a mess because the newer devs really don't understand what the first 10 rounds of devs have done. At least that is how I see the issue.
Yes the 1.0 version of STO was a ton of fun. That is why when they did the April fools gag where they installed V1.0 on the test server people where honestly excited and hoped it would stay there. The first round of devs had things pretty well right.. even if ti was mostly by accident. The first 6 months of so of STO where a ton of fun. Sure there where some bugs, but there where not as many game breaking things as there are at this point. Strip away the last 4 years of junk Cryptic has heaped on and the base of the game is fun and a base where torps do exactly what you would expect.
I have a feeling that while APB does apply to a torp hit, it only applies after the torp hits (meaning the torp in question doesn't benefit from the debuff). Then it is gone by the time the next torp hits.
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Wait WHAT? Sorry you are so off Neutronics cannot be targeted and they are far superior to quantums in everyway. As far as reload times gee put a couple of purple tac officers with reduce cooldown of torpedos. I had all fleet Quantums and when I got my first rep Neu scrapped every quantum I had. Neutronics are not a low damage torpedo arguably they are the only torpedo even close to what canon torpedo does damage wise.
Numbers here are purely arbitrary but something like:
Full shield - 75% resistance,
50% shield - 50% resistance,
25% shield - 25% resistance,
10% shield - 10% resistance etc, etc...
That alone would mean that at the very least those pesky 1% slivers of shield that regen just before your torp hits would not stop the massive kinetic impact and explosion. That at least seems more realistic that a 1% facing stopping a massive HY torp dead in its tracks.
The issue is not really the torps themselves, it's how they interact with shields that needs to be addressed.
That is correct APB lasts for 5s after the hit that applies it. If you are running a full torp boat that isn't an issue because you will be firing a torp a second. If you are not running a full torp boat then your energy weapons should keep applying it anyway.
So the first hit doesn't apply but it is still a good skill to run. If your not in a full on stealth bomber build just put one 360 or a cutting beam in the back or something and the problem is solved.
So, if Kemocite causes issues, nerf Neutronic?
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
I believe that I had provided you a link to a Reddit thread where there were realistic conditions that HY1/TS1 would do more damage than HY3/TS3 for salvo torps. Can the same be said about any of the energy weapon abilities? Can FaW1 out-damage FaW3 consistently?
Also, thanks to SARoss and Timberwolf for their bug discovery with the AP torpedo thingy, we now know that the shared torpedo cool down CAN be removed, as well as the limitation on how many individual torpedoes can be fired per second.
FYI: Neutronic Torpedo is a Quantum Torpedo.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
I am on board with asking Cryptic to give torpedos a once over... but Cryptic isn't that wise, don't ask for crazy things they might just do it and break the game even more then it already is.
As for HY 1 and 3 not being equal... like I was saying before the system was designed when this game didn't have stupid rep torps and a game where CRTD was racked up to a point where a Crit from a HY 1 could out dmg 4 HY 3 torps. Sure that is the game we have though... if you have a ton of CRTD yes HY 1 is 10x better then HY 3. I know seems stupid but remember until recently (romulans and the spire aren't that old) the idea of having CRTD enough for that to be a reality didn't exist.
Should they go over HY ... sure... frankly though its going to be just as borked cause there is no way to fix that skill with all the crazy torps in the game at this point. I would rather see them remove HY as it exists and replace it with a kinetic dmg boost ... Something like "Kinetic Targeting" Level 1 could improve All kinetic dmg 10% for 10s, and during those 10s all torps that can create destructables should create ones = to HY 1 versions now... and II could do 20% and III could do 30% dmg.
That would fix the odd balance reason numbers... and give torp boats a boost that doesn't involve crazy ideas like removing globals.
I kinda hate that the meta is either go full energy or full torpedoes and the mixed aka star-trekish builds are labled as "RP" because they are not "optimal".
I must agree with improving what I call the basic 6 types of torpedoes as well as sharing your disdain for mixed canon builds being "not optimal" or "non-competive". This of course is not the fault of those who say such things. I put that on the doorstep of the devs. When phaser relays have to share console space with quantum chambers, neither do as well as stacking the deck full of either one only.
Blame the tactical consoles on only buffing one or the other on that one. Or the fact that phasers and photons compete for fitting space. A few unique consoles that buff energy and kinetics at the same time would make a mix alot more appealing.
As would dealing with that whole sliver of shield makes the whole torpedo a waste.
I think the consoles are a very small reason why it isn't common to mix energy and kinetics. The Skill Tree and BOff slots required to make such a build work is what is limiting it.
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The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
also for @bobs1111 if you want to see more broken torp mechanics pick a simple foundry space accolade kill mission and sit back firing nothing but high yield tricobalt, watch and just count the problems you encounter. My favorite is after a time they just stop working, they won't miss, they are reported in the combat log, sometimes registering as critical hits, but apply no damage at all. unless you are close the impact of course, then YOU receive damage.