Uh, no you're wrong, the rights holders determine what is and isn't CANON. And who cares what Roddenberry would have/did think about what was or wasn't canon? He wasn't the only one who worked on Star Trek and TNG. Guys like Herb Solow and Robert Justman had as much to do with creating the original show than Roddenberry did. David Gerrold, the writer of 'The Trouble with Tribbles', ought to get a ******n co-creator credit for writing the TNG writer's bible.
The one time Roddenberry had almost full creative control of the franchise resulted in The Motion Picture, and while I actually like that film, it's not exactly everyone's favourite. (And TMP wasn't as well-received as Paramount would have liked, which is one of the reasons why Roddenberry became less involved in the subsequent films)
Look I don't like Enterprise either, and I think it probably did more to sink the franchise than anything else did, but your argument is very poorly constructed. Frankly there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions between each series to fairly point out Enterprise's sins in that regard.
it is like Star wars where whats his face says what is cannon and what isn't and since he is no longer with us nothing else anyone does is cannon. and true Trekkie knows this.
Whether or not something is canon is determined by the owners of the franchise. When GR died, somebody else at CBS became the owner.
And stop throwing that "true Trekkies" thing around. A "Trekkie" is a fan of the franchise, not necessarily TOS.
WRONG again if there was Phaser technology the Enterprise would have had it a long time ago. and Lasers was the main armament of Star fleet ships of the days.
I'm pretty sure only the hand weapons were referred to as lasers. So maybe the Enterprise did have phasers at the time.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
You are wrong they are not cannon, not by a long shot. anything done after Mr. Roddenberry's death is NOT cannon.
it is like Star wars where whats his face says what is cannon and what isn't and since he is no longer with us nothing else anyone does is cannon. and true Trekkie knows this.
call me what you like but I stand for Mr. Roddenberry's dream which has been trodden over time and again by paramount and others like the fools who created Enterprise.
by the way if someone has to ask "12 what?" then they didn't the other post where we was talking about time travel being part of the shows.
also TOS will be and shall always be the one true star trek and that is the stance of all real Trekkie because of what it stood for and what it had done for so many.
where the human race was treated the same, women treated as equals in all things, color of one's skin didn't matter, or where you are from or what accent you may have had. and it was also the first to show to have two people of different skin color kissing and so much more.
and what happened to his dream? Paramount and others that want to strip mine one of the greatest shows to have ever come to Television and be damned if they destroy a man's legacy to do it.
Call me a troll all you want, I have been nothing but respectful to all those who have replied to me and never once have I called anyone names.
feelings hurt you might think?
nope not at all.
I am just a very passionate person that is all and you will find I am very thick skinned(one has to be if they are going to be an online gamer lol) so call me names if you like and disregard my arguments if you wish but always remember that I am a true Trekkie and will never waver from my path.
anyone who likes tng, ds9, and voy are a neo-Trekkie but a Trekkie none the less...
With that said what else can there be said about the earth ship enterprise other then it was an Akria class model with some minor changes and the biggest change would be the warp nacelles.
Edit: @ reply 36, yeah I tend to use the wrong word by mistake seeing as it is so easy to make when typing fast and only check for spelling errors, lol.
at least my replies are spelling error free(cannon is still spelled right just the wrong one, lol).
I saw someone mention on a youtube post that the NX class starship is just an upside down Akira, and that star trek went cheapo on that model. Anyone else see the similarities?
How did we get from this^ to where we are now?
(I confess I have read this and the first page for my references)
I just want to point out something about Starfleet not meeting the Borg until Q-Who, and then first meeting them in Enterprise.
The timeline was altered.
Originally, Yes, NX was launched (We know it was officially existed, because of These Are The Voyages) but in the original timeline, that Enterprise episode Regeneration didn't happen. Because there were no Borg in the Artic.
So the first contact with them was in Q-Who, and it was a random cube they got thrown into the path of (We know there was one flirting around the Romulan Neutral Zone before this incident).
After First Contact, the timeline was altered from the point of Zefram Chochrane. The attack on the silo and the borg wreckage in the artic. So it still does make sense, it's a slightly altered timeline.
Now the Ferengi incident has no excuse. Although they didn't identify themselves, so they could get away with it, if they pulled a Romulan and didn't see any Ferengi visually until TNG era. We know no Ferengi vessels were identified until after the Stargazer was lost, so if no Ferengi said "Hey, we're Ferengi", then Starfleet wouldn't know they were Ferengi on the NX until someone found a Ferengi ship, hailed it and saw who was onboard. Which obviously is what happened after the Battle of Maxia. And after that, some history buff said "Hey, look at this! Those unknown aliens on the NX were actually Ferengi all this time."
Now, as for the NX. Yes, it may look like the Akira in general shape, but so what? It's a good looking ship, and a basic design. A saucer strapped to a pair of warp nacelles. It's the first warp 5 ship, the first one capable of long distance travel. A prototype. They are not going to waste resources on constructing a large ship, or one that has an Engineering hull when they don't need to. None of the early Starfleet vessels has the saucer/neck/engineering hull look. Because the ships are not that big. The NX only has a crew of 80 odd. Why build a secondary hull when it's not needed? The NX was built for speed, and that's what she does.
Now, why does the Akira look like that design 200 years later? Because it's a simplistic, yet effective design. The purpose of the Akira is a torpedoboat, from my understanding. A war ship to help fight the borg. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that means the thing needs manouverability and speed. Ships can't do that if they have an engineering hull. Again, simple, yet effective design. And just because it looks similar on the outside, doesn't mean it's the same on the inside. For a start, it's much larger. That means the gravity plating, inertial dampeners, structural integrity field and who knows what else is all completely overhauled and new compared to the NX.
And let's not forget, Starfleet has been using the basic saucer clamped to warp nacelles without an Engineering hull throughout their entire history. Miranda class ships. Constellation class ships. I don't understand why people keep picking on Enterprise and the NX. Oh, but it's just the Akira. Well maybe they decided after trying Miranda and Constellation class ships, that design is the most effective Saucer clamped to nacelle hull configuration.
And please, stop saying only True Tekkies like TOS and nothing else. You are clearly passionate about the series, and I admire that. But to keep saying only True Trekkies like TOS and nothing else is insulting, weither you intend it to be or not. By all means, keep fighting your corner, I agree with you in certain aspects about TOS being the closest thing to Mr Roddenberry's dream, and how recently Star Trek has moved further away from that dream and more into pew pew shooty turf (which I admit, I would prefer it wasn't), but this is all a topic for another thread. One I would be more than happy to talk about.
I'll end by saying this: Can we NX lovers be left in peace to admire the wonderful little girl. She is put through a lot, and is a great little ship.
Can the Akira lovers be happy that their favourite ship has been honoured by having an Enterprise based on their ship's design?
After all, isn't that what Mr Roddenberry's dream was about to begin with?
*******************************************
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Edit: @ reply 36, yeah I tend to use the wrong word by mistake seeing as it is so easy to make when typing fast and only check for spelling errors, lol.
at least my replies are spelling error free(cannon is still spelled right just the wrong one, lol).
No malice intended, just a little light hearted ribbing.
-It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.-- Mark Twain.
where the human race was treated the same, women treated as equals in all things, color of one's skin didn't matter, or where you are from or what accent you may have had. and it was also the first to show to have two people of different skin color kissing and so much more.
LOL, were we watching the same show? Because men and women weren't treated the same for most of it. Nichelle Nichols even threatened to leave if they didn't give her character more lines than "Hailing frequencies open, Captain." Uhura may have been a senior officer, but she did not receive the same treatment as any of the male characters. Chekov, an ensign, had more lines and a larger part than she did. How is that "women treated as equals in all things"? :rolleyes:
Umm... guys... can we stop having a go at someone for their interpretation of something and while ok the only female bridge officer aboard the Enterprise had very few lines look at the amount of action other female characters in the show got. regardless, back to the purpose for which this thread was created, discussing the similarities between the NX 01 and the Akira class developed by starfleet a few hundred years later...
NX certainly is just an akira turned upside down with some retro nacelles bolted on.
As far as the show is concerned; enterprise is merely 98 tedious installments of a badly written, historically inaccurate holo novel, written by riker so he could rp as a chef during moments of indecision.
I think the NX looks good, but never understood why they felt it necessary to make it look more modern than the ships it predated by a century.
Probably because that's what viewers would expect.
The Enterprise was designed to look futuristic given 1960's expectations, wherein large, simplish shapes made industrially from tons of metal were pretty much the norm. Airplanes, for instance, weren't as aerodynamic (compare the B-52 to the Stealth Bomber).
After TOS starships started getting sleeker and more refined (arguably this started with the Constitution class refit, in at least some senses). The 1701-D was a lot more sleek than the 1701 or 1701-A were. It had much more subtle, sloping angles. Although such things would arguably not be necessary in space, they were, from a technical standpoint, there to enhance the efficiency/effectiveness of the warp field, and, frankly, were what viewers expected. Subsequent ships (1701-E, Voyager) were even sleeker - note those two became very dart-like, or alternatively they started looking a bit like some types of aquatic life.
So in short it was what the casual audience would have expected to see, and it would be jarring not to have it that way. Compare the bridge of the NX-01 to the 1701 - while it did well in the 1960s, people would be given pause at looking at a bridge constructed to look like it came out of a Cold War era military control room when we IRL already have things such as touch screens and interfaces considerably more complex than was ever envisioned by the time of TOS. Although the Mirror Universe episode did manage to "sell" the advancedness of the Constitution-class Defiant, it was supposed to be a radically different ship in bizarro-world - not something we'd see every day in any sense.
As far as the show is concerned; enterprise is merely 98 tedious installments of a badly written, historically inaccurate holo novel, written by riker so he could rp as a chef during moments of indecision.
1 - it's not historically inaccurate, at least no more than any of the others were.
2 - Riker was recreating an event from history. He didn't write it.
3 - Enterprise had a lot of great stories, character development, and drama.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
3 - Enterprise had a lot of great stories, character development, and drama.
It had characters :eek:
I thought it was the Archer, T'Pol and Tucker show .
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
Probably because that's what viewers would expect.
The Enterprise was designed to look futuristic given 1960's expectations, wherein large, simplish shapes made industrially from tons of metal were pretty much the norm. Airplanes, for instance, weren't as aerodynamic (compare the B-52 to the Stealth Bomber).
After TOS starships started getting sleeker and more refined (arguably this started with the Constitution class refit, in at least some senses). The 1701-D was a lot more sleek than the 1701 or 1701-A were. It had much more subtle, sloping angles. Although such things would arguably not be necessary in space, they were, from a technical standpoint, there to enhance the efficiency/effectiveness of the warp field, and, frankly, were what viewers expected. Subsequent ships (1701-E, Voyager) were even sleeker - note those two became very dart-like, or alternatively they started looking a bit like some types of aquatic life.
So in short it was what the casual audience would have expected to see, and it would be jarring not to have it that way. Compare the bridge of the NX-01 to the 1701 - while it did well in the 1960s, people would be given pause at looking at a bridge constructed to look like it came out of a Cold War era military control room when we IRL already have things such as touch screens and interfaces considerably more complex than was ever envisioned by the time of TOS. Although the Mirror Universe episode did manage to "sell" the advancedness of the Constitution-class Defiant, it was supposed to be a radically different ship in bizarro-world - not something we'd see every day in any sense.
^ THIS. I don't get why some fans clamor all over the NX's advanced look, when today's IRL USS Enterprise has a more advanced looking CIC compared to the NCC1701/A.
Perceptions of the future change in each decade. When ToS came out, auto-sliding doors were the thing of awe!! and yet look around you in any mall!! Heck the smartphones we have today put the ToS communicators to shame. ToS era ships used crt tubes even..
They even tried to explain the reason for the "backwardness" in later ships in the Romulan war book series.... though I expect the same NX haters to say the books arent worth a dime cos they cant be considered canon. :rolleyes:
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
Comments
The one time Roddenberry had almost full creative control of the franchise resulted in The Motion Picture, and while I actually like that film, it's not exactly everyone's favourite. (And TMP wasn't as well-received as Paramount would have liked, which is one of the reasons why Roddenberry became less involved in the subsequent films)
Look I don't like Enterprise either, and I think it probably did more to sink the franchise than anything else did, but your argument is very poorly constructed. Frankly there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions between each series to fairly point out Enterprise's sins in that regard.
My mistake. I got ninja'd.
Five total what?
Where did that idea come from?
Whether or not something is canon is determined by the owners of the franchise. When GR died, somebody else at CBS became the owner.
And stop throwing that "true Trekkies" thing around. A "Trekkie" is a fan of the franchise, not necessarily TOS.
I'm pretty sure only the hand weapons were referred to as lasers. So maybe the Enterprise did have phasers at the time.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
Cannon?
by the way if someone has to ask "12 what?" then they didn't the other post where we was talking about time travel being part of the shows.
also TOS will be and shall always be the one true star trek and that is the stance of all real Trekkie because of what it stood for and what it had done for so many.
where the human race was treated the same, women treated as equals in all things, color of one's skin didn't matter, or where you are from or what accent you may have had. and it was also the first to show to have two people of different skin color kissing and so much more.
and what happened to his dream? Paramount and others that want to strip mine one of the greatest shows to have ever come to Television and be damned if they destroy a man's legacy to do it.
Call me a troll all you want, I have been nothing but respectful to all those who have replied to me and never once have I called anyone names.
feelings hurt you might think?
nope not at all.
I am just a very passionate person that is all and you will find I am very thick skinned(one has to be if they are going to be an online gamer lol) so call me names if you like and disregard my arguments if you wish but always remember that I am a true Trekkie and will never waver from my path.
anyone who likes tng, ds9, and voy are a neo-Trekkie but a Trekkie none the less...
With that said what else can there be said about the earth ship enterprise other then it was an Akria class model with some minor changes and the biggest change would be the warp nacelles.
Edit: @ reply 36, yeah I tend to use the wrong word by mistake seeing as it is so easy to make when typing fast and only check for spelling errors, lol.
at least my replies are spelling error free(cannon is still spelled right just the wrong one, lol).
How did we get from this^ to where we are now?
(I confess I have read this and the first page for my references)
The timeline was altered.
Originally, Yes, NX was launched (We know it was officially existed, because of These Are The Voyages) but in the original timeline, that Enterprise episode Regeneration didn't happen. Because there were no Borg in the Artic.
So the first contact with them was in Q-Who, and it was a random cube they got thrown into the path of (We know there was one flirting around the Romulan Neutral Zone before this incident).
After First Contact, the timeline was altered from the point of Zefram Chochrane. The attack on the silo and the borg wreckage in the artic. So it still does make sense, it's a slightly altered timeline.
Now the Ferengi incident has no excuse. Although they didn't identify themselves, so they could get away with it, if they pulled a Romulan and didn't see any Ferengi visually until TNG era. We know no Ferengi vessels were identified until after the Stargazer was lost, so if no Ferengi said "Hey, we're Ferengi", then Starfleet wouldn't know they were Ferengi on the NX until someone found a Ferengi ship, hailed it and saw who was onboard. Which obviously is what happened after the Battle of Maxia. And after that, some history buff said "Hey, look at this! Those unknown aliens on the NX were actually Ferengi all this time."
Now, as for the NX. Yes, it may look like the Akira in general shape, but so what? It's a good looking ship, and a basic design. A saucer strapped to a pair of warp nacelles. It's the first warp 5 ship, the first one capable of long distance travel. A prototype. They are not going to waste resources on constructing a large ship, or one that has an Engineering hull when they don't need to. None of the early Starfleet vessels has the saucer/neck/engineering hull look. Because the ships are not that big. The NX only has a crew of 80 odd. Why build a secondary hull when it's not needed? The NX was built for speed, and that's what she does.
Now, why does the Akira look like that design 200 years later? Because it's a simplistic, yet effective design. The purpose of the Akira is a torpedoboat, from my understanding. A war ship to help fight the borg. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that means the thing needs manouverability and speed. Ships can't do that if they have an engineering hull. Again, simple, yet effective design. And just because it looks similar on the outside, doesn't mean it's the same on the inside. For a start, it's much larger. That means the gravity plating, inertial dampeners, structural integrity field and who knows what else is all completely overhauled and new compared to the NX.
And let's not forget, Starfleet has been using the basic saucer clamped to warp nacelles without an Engineering hull throughout their entire history. Miranda class ships. Constellation class ships. I don't understand why people keep picking on Enterprise and the NX. Oh, but it's just the Akira. Well maybe they decided after trying Miranda and Constellation class ships, that design is the most effective Saucer clamped to nacelle hull configuration.
And please, stop saying only True Tekkies like TOS and nothing else. You are clearly passionate about the series, and I admire that. But to keep saying only True Trekkies like TOS and nothing else is insulting, weither you intend it to be or not. By all means, keep fighting your corner, I agree with you in certain aspects about TOS being the closest thing to Mr Roddenberry's dream, and how recently Star Trek has moved further away from that dream and more into pew pew shooty turf (which I admit, I would prefer it wasn't), but this is all a topic for another thread. One I would be more than happy to talk about.
I'll end by saying this: Can we NX lovers be left in peace to admire the wonderful little girl. She is put through a lot, and is a great little ship.
Can the Akira lovers be happy that their favourite ship has been honoured by having an Enterprise based on their ship's design?
After all, isn't that what Mr Roddenberry's dream was about to begin with?
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
No malice intended, just a little light hearted ribbing.
LOL, were we watching the same show? Because men and women weren't treated the same for most of it. Nichelle Nichols even threatened to leave if they didn't give her character more lines than "Hailing frequencies open, Captain." Uhura may have been a senior officer, but she did not receive the same treatment as any of the male characters. Chekov, an ensign, had more lines and a larger part than she did. How is that "women treated as equals in all things"? :rolleyes:
As far as the show is concerned; enterprise is merely 98 tedious installments of a badly written, historically inaccurate holo novel, written by riker so he could rp as a chef during moments of indecision.
Probably because that's what viewers would expect.
The Enterprise was designed to look futuristic given 1960's expectations, wherein large, simplish shapes made industrially from tons of metal were pretty much the norm. Airplanes, for instance, weren't as aerodynamic (compare the B-52 to the Stealth Bomber).
After TOS starships started getting sleeker and more refined (arguably this started with the Constitution class refit, in at least some senses). The 1701-D was a lot more sleek than the 1701 or 1701-A were. It had much more subtle, sloping angles. Although such things would arguably not be necessary in space, they were, from a technical standpoint, there to enhance the efficiency/effectiveness of the warp field, and, frankly, were what viewers expected. Subsequent ships (1701-E, Voyager) were even sleeker - note those two became very dart-like, or alternatively they started looking a bit like some types of aquatic life.
So in short it was what the casual audience would have expected to see, and it would be jarring not to have it that way. Compare the bridge of the NX-01 to the 1701 - while it did well in the 1960s, people would be given pause at looking at a bridge constructed to look like it came out of a Cold War era military control room when we IRL already have things such as touch screens and interfaces considerably more complex than was ever envisioned by the time of TOS. Although the Mirror Universe episode did manage to "sell" the advancedness of the Constitution-class Defiant, it was supposed to be a radically different ship in bizarro-world - not something we'd see every day in any sense.
1 - it's not historically inaccurate, at least no more than any of the others were.
2 - Riker was recreating an event from history. He didn't write it.
3 - Enterprise had a lot of great stories, character development, and drama.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
It had characters :eek:
I thought it was the Archer, T'Pol and Tucker show
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Only in the same way that TOS was the Kirk, Spock, and McCoy show.
Not bashing TOS; I'm just saying that a show that under-uses some of its characters can still be great
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
^ THIS. I don't get why some fans clamor all over the NX's advanced look, when today's IRL USS Enterprise has a more advanced looking CIC compared to the NCC1701/A.
Perceptions of the future change in each decade. When ToS came out, auto-sliding doors were the thing of awe!! and yet look around you in any mall!! Heck the smartphones we have today put the ToS communicators to shame. ToS era ships used crt tubes even..
They even tried to explain the reason for the "backwardness" in later ships in the Romulan war book series.... though I expect the same NX haters to say the books arent worth a dime cos they cant be considered canon. :rolleyes:
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!