Its not a flaw. You are thinking of the klingons, a completely alien race in both outlook and society, from human reasoning.
The samuria where focused on honor and yet they would misstreat the lower classes often.
Chivalry was the honor of the knight and nobility yet they did not always act with honor.
even our own modern military pratices stealth technology in war and yet they have warrior grasp of honor.
So why would you expect the klingons, once again a completely alien society, to act with the human definition of honor when we cant even act with honor ourselves based on your reasoning?
"We all change, when you think about it, we're all different people; all through our lives, and that's okay, that's good, you've gotta keep moving, so long as you remember all the people that you used to be."
Cryptic never cared.
- KDF was released not as it was intended. Yes it was supposed ot be more PvP oriented, BUT it was supposed to almost be a mirror faction in regards to content in PvE, etc. Cryptic had to hurry to meet the dealine and the BS "PvP Faction" was labeled on it. Then Cryptic stopped paying attention and focused on Starfleet Online. Simple as they.
I was realy impressed with the Alpha mission on the KDF side. It basicly nailed what i wanted to see on my Klingon. I cant praise it enough, and i cant thank the devs enough for that. In general i might a bit of a negative/pesimistic note on the forums. But thats only because i recognize there is some potential, and various issues keep stopping that potential from being shown.
1. dstahl is the "Buck stops here" boss of the entire dev team/effort
2. dstahl HATES Klingons
'Nuff said .........
Dstahl loves Klingons. He wrote a song about them that he plays on guitar (seriously, they need to get him in-game ala WoW's Level 80 Elite Tauren Chieftans). Pretty sure he owns a Bat'leth.
Dstahl also loves his job, his employees, and having a check he can bring home to support his family.
I think what happened was, pretty much, he made the hail mary case for Klingons. They ran the numbers. They found they could get more revenue... but not ENOUGH more revenue.
Fixing the Klingon faction, by my napkin math, would probably take a minimum of $10 million USD.
Cryptic's games have a budget of around $20-30 million USD and they're investigating cheaper to produce online co-op games.
So that $10 million that could go to the Klingon faction MIGHT generate a profit. It might not. But even if it does, is it worth scrapping an entirely separate game for? That's where the cost evaluation comes into play.
I'm gonna guess STO has 40-50 thousand Klingons, including people like me who play both sides. I'm gonna guess people who play predominantly or only Klingon are a small fraction of that who both spend less money and are less likely to buy the C-Store purchases that are there.
In many ways, Cryptic goofed with KDF. I think they'd acknowledge this. But any partial fix that draws KDFers in is probably just going to attract more dissatisfied or low spending players and increase pressure for a complete fix. A complete fix is the better growth option but the money makes more sense being spent on another game.
I think the cost-benefit analysis is probably just to support the KDF players we have but not really try to expand their number... and then to fold the faction if it shrinks to a certain point. And I think Dan Stahl hates that answer. I bet he looks for ideas all the time to bypass that logic. But unless he can bypass the numbers he's presented with, the idea is what? That he says, "To heck with my job!" and hires 20 people to work in a room with paper taped up over the windows so that his bosses don't catch him and fire him until those 20 people's payroll comes in at the end of the month?
Dstahl loves Klingons. He wrote a song about them that he plays on guitar (seriously, they need to get him in-game ala WoW's Level 80 Elite Tauren Chieftans). Pretty sure he owns a Bat'leth.
Dstahl also loves his job, his employees, and having a check he can bring home to support his family.
I think what happened was, pretty much, he made the hail mary case for Klingons. They ran the numbers. They found they could get more revenue... but not ENOUGH more revenue.
Fixing the Klingon faction, by my napkin math, would probably take a minimum of $10 million USD.
Cryptic's games have a budget of around $20-30 million USD and they're investigating cheaper to produce online co-op games.
So that $10 million that could go to the Klingon faction MIGHT generate a profit. It might not. But even if it does, is it worth scrapping an entirely separate game for? That's where the cost evaluation comes into play.
I'm gonna guess STO has 40-50 thousand Klingons, including people like me who play both sides. I'm gonna guess people who play predominantly or only Klingon are a small fraction of that who both spend less money and are less likely to buy the C-Store purchases that are there.
In many ways, Cryptic goofed with KDF. I think they'd acknowledge this. But any partial fix that draws KDFers in is probably just going to attract more dissatisfied or low spending players and increase pressure for a complete fix. A complete fix is the better growth option but the money makes more sense being spent on another game.
I think the cost-benefit analysis is probably just to support the KDF players we have but not really try to expand their number... and then to fold the faction if it shrinks to a certain point. And I think Dan Stahl hates that answer. I bet he looks for ideas all the time to bypass that logic. But unless he can bypass the numbers he's presented with, the idea is what? That he says, "To heck with my job!" and hires 20 people to work in a room with paper taped up over the windows so that his bosses don't catch him and fire him until those 20 people's payroll comes in at the end of the month?
You raise some good points. In return, I'm just going to say this...either Cryptic/PW believes in STO's longevity, or they don't.
If it's the former, than expansions are necessary to keep the game fresh. The most profitable expansions would involve new factions. New playable races, boffs, doffs, and ships in the cstore would bring new money in from both new and existing players. The best way to make new factions is begin now with the KDF. Use the KDF as a template for the new factions? Why the KDF and not the Feds? The Federation is pretty unique. The Romulans, Dominion, Breen, Caradssians are all far more like the KDF than they are the Federation.
Dstahl loves Klingons. He wrote a song about them that he plays on guitar (seriously, they need to get him in-game ala WoW's Level 80 Elite Tauren Chieftans). Pretty sure he owns a Bat'leth.
Dstahl also loves his job, his employees, and having a check he can bring home to support his family.
I think what happened was, pretty much, he made the hail mary case for Klingons. They ran the numbers. They found they could get more revenue... but not ENOUGH more revenue.
Fixing the Klingon faction, by my napkin math, would probably take a minimum of $10 million USD.
Cryptic's games have a budget of around $20-30 million USD and they're investigating cheaper to produce online co-op games.
So that $10 million that could go to the Klingon faction MIGHT generate a profit. It might not. But even if it does, is it worth scrapping an entirely separate game for? That's where the cost evaluation comes into play.
I'm gonna guess STO has 40-50 thousand Klingons, including people like me who play both sides. I'm gonna guess people who play predominantly or only Klingon are a small fraction of that who both spend less money and are less likely to buy the C-Store purchases that are there.
In many ways, Cryptic goofed with KDF. I think they'd acknowledge this. But any partial fix that draws KDFers in is probably just going to attract more dissatisfied or low spending players and increase pressure for a complete fix. A complete fix is the better growth option but the money makes more sense being spent on another game.
I think the cost-benefit analysis is probably just to support the KDF players we have but not really try to expand their number... and then to fold the faction if it shrinks to a certain point. And I think Dan Stahl hates that answer. I bet he looks for ideas all the time to bypass that logic. But unless he can bypass the numbers he's presented with, the idea is what? That he says, "To heck with my job!" and hires 20 people to work in a room with paper taped up over the windows so that his bosses don't catch him and fire him until those 20 people's payroll comes in at the end of the month?
You say Dstahl loves the Klingons. Hell, a few of their employees have jumped on the KDF-centric subforums and have said that they too love the Klingons and try to push for them whenever they can. Dstahl said something similar years ago.
But again, looking at the state the Federation is in, looking at the state the KDF is in, all throughout the history of this game, and it's easy to see where Cryptic's feelings lie with the Klingons. It becomes even more apparent when anyone plays alot of time with both factions.
Simply put, if you put little effort and love into something, should you be surprised if it doesn't grow and expand?
No.
All their efforts have gone into the Federation since even before the game was released. Take a look at the condition the Federation and KDF factions were when the game came out. Cryptic has never really closed that gap.
There's only 1 thing neglected more than the KDF in STO, and that is PVP, which literally has received NO attention whatsoever.
And Cryptic seems surprised that something totally neglected hasn't blossomed. Again.
If there is indeed fewer devs working on STO, then this is a guarantee that the KDF will never, ever be on equal par with the Federation, to be a Lv1 thru cap faction to provide the full experience like the Federation.
And it's a guarantee that we'll never see another full faction in the game. Romulans? Never. Cardassians? Never. Dominion? A total joke to occur. Their highly symbolic Bugships are lottery rewards now. The day the Dominion are ever a playable, full-on faction is when actual World Peace occurs on our planet Earth.
And Cryptic seems surprised that something totally neglected hasn't blossomed. Again.
Why do you think they're surprised? I do not think they're surprised at all, really.
I think they wanted to do something that they didn't have the money for. It would generate revenue, yes, but they didn't have the money to invest when they were under Atari. They got under Perfect World, which meant money influx. Stahl made the case for it. They said, "We'll put some money into Cryptic but you should consider whether this is cost effective. You are talking about a large sum of money that would mean scrapping another game if you spent it on the KDF."
There is no reason to develop the KDF aside from passion and love for the KDF. You might bring in $1 million dollars in a year in a wild dream scenario but it would be irresponsible to do so if another game would cost twice as much as fixing the KDF faction (which would take 10 years to pay off the development) and that new game would generate an anticipated minimum of $10 million in a year and pay itself off in 2 years. You are talking about gambling with people's jobs (including his own) on something that the math doesn't currently support.
One thing to keep in mind is, too. They ticked off a lot of Klingon players. That doesn't mean it was right but sometimes when you TRIBBLE something up, it's better to walk away than fix it and hope those customers are happy somewhere else. The ones who stick with you, you might want to be nice to but you also might not have the ability to ever make good on the TRIBBLE up either.
I like the federation but If the KDF was actually able to level from 1 to 50 in PvE like i can Fed side i would have more than 1 KDF char.
The KDF char i have was leveled almost completely on explore missions which got very tedius to say the least.
I said this two years ago and still believe it to this day.
The KDF was a after thought just thrown into game. Since it was an after thought it was decided the easiest way to get it running was to make it a PvP faction. Since the KDF was an after thought it is still continuing to be treated as such. They have no real interest in bringing it up to spec with the federation side.
Which does not bod well for any other faction that may come down the line
The Account formally known as Rayvenwing
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Its not a flaw. You are thinking of the klingons, a completely alien race in both outlook and society, from human reasoning.
The samuria where focused on honor and yet they would misstreat the lower classes often.
Chivalry was the honor of the knight and nobility yet they did not always act with honor.
even our own modern military pratices stealth technology in war and yet they have warrior grasp of honor.
So why would you expect the klingons, once again a completely alien society, to act with the human definition of honor when we cant even act with honor ourselves based on your reasoning?
Oh my god are you not human...quick call the F.B.I. :P
Like I said before my reasoning is my own and I don't expect you to agree on it.
It's just how I personally feel about the definition of honour. And because i am human i cant help but think like one.:rolleyes:
If you think its honourable to uncloak and destroy a ship that might not even of had the chance to raise shields, it's fine by me.
I like the federation but If the KDF was actually able to level from 1 to 50 in PvE like i can Fed side i would have more than 1 KDF char.
The KDF char i have was leveled almost completely on explore missions which got very tedius to say the least.
I said this two years ago and still believe it to this day.
The KDF was a after thought just thrown into game. Since it was an after thought it was decided the easiest way to get it running was to make it a PvP faction. Since the KDF was an after thought it is still continuing to be treated as such. They have no real interest in bringing it up to spec with the federation side.
Which does not bod well for any other faction that may come down the line
I'm I the only person that was not glad I didn't have to do 1-19 on the Klingon side? That was the worst part of leveling a Fed. I was more than happy to start off at a Cmdr level in a fully fitted BoP as a Klingon.
Oh my god are you not human...quick call the F.B.I. :P
Like I said before my reasoning is my own and I don't expect you to agree on it.
It's just how I personally feel about the definition of honour. And because i am human i cant help but think like one.:rolleyes:
If you think its honourable to uncloak and destroy a ship that might not even of had the chance to raise shields, it's fine by me.
That's why I play a Gorn instead. I don't have to justify anything. :P
__________________________________________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I weary of the chase. Wait for me. I shall be merciful and quick."
I think the KDF concept of honor is pretty much the human concept of honor or the universal translators wouldn't translate it that way.
I mean, words like Oo-Mox or Guramba don't translate because the concept isn't exactly *ahem* or "courage." It may have some unique provisos and be a charged concept but Klingon honor is just as much the human idea of honor as Ferengi profit is the human idea of profit.
The CONCEPT of the honor is absolutely analogous. The whole point of most of the Klingon episodes of TNG and DS9 were that the Klingons were mostly hypocrites who had lost their way. Heck, that's further what drove the augment retcon and why the TOS Klingons acted differently.
Honor had become perverted to become synonymous with reputation and rules, much like many real world belief systems become ruled by demagogues. This is Worf's story. He learned about his people largely from books, between early childhood and age seventeen or so. This caused him to adopt the ideal notion of what honor was supposed to mean and an idealized notion of Klingon culture in general. Everyone had given up on the ideals. The leaders had turned their back on honor and Worf was an inconvenient reminder of true honor.
Then Martok came along and joined Worf as the first truly honorable Klingon male Worf had ever met. We were intended to cheer when Worf killed Gowron because it was Worf finally indicating he was done suffering fools like Gowron who had a perverted and hollow notion of honor. Then Worf handed the reins of power to the one honorable Klingon we'd ever seen, the only man who lived up to Worf's ideals: Martok.
Any other reading is adopted a perverse RPGer mentality, like trying to adopt the Joker's position in a Batman comic.
The writers who did Star Trek weren't really trying to invent truly alien cultures but create mirrors of our own to teach us about ourselves. The idea of a totally alien notion of the word "honor" would be the kind of pure sci-fi speculation that canon Trek never really dealt in. That's the kind of thing the books might do but in this case, even the books flat out said Worf understood true honor in the Klingon culture and was the one who practiced it.
The whole point of that arc was to show us how people who preach certain values very loudly rarely practice them and how hypocrites exploit ideologies unless someone forces them to live up to their ideals. You toss that idea, you toss the whole point of that arc out in order to prop up dishonorable Klingons as the norm.
I'm I the only person that was not glad I didn't have to do 1-19 on the Klingon side? That was the worst part of leveling a Fed. I was more than happy to start off at a Cmdr level in a fully fitted BoP as a Klingon.
Not the only one.
I hate low levels, in this or any MMO.
Being able to skip the first 20 levels of boredom where I fly around in a slow, crappy ship with a tiny handful of powers and 3 weapon slots is actually one of the majorly appealing factors of making a new character KDF side (and for many of my friends).
I think the KDF concept of honor is pretty much the human concept of honor or the universal translators wouldn't translate it that way.
I mean, words like Oo-Mox or Guramba don't translate because the concept isn't exactly *ahem* or "courage." It may have some unique provisos and be a charged concept but Klingon honor is just as much the human idea of honor as Ferengi profit is the human idea of profit.
The CONCEPT of the honor is absolutely analogous. The whole point of most of the Klingon episodes of TNG and DS9 were that the Klingons were mostly hypocrites who had lost their way. Heck, that's further what drove the augment retcon and why the TOS Klingons acted differently.
Honor had become perverted to become synonymous with reputation and rules, much like many real world belief systems become ruled by demagogues. This is Worf's story. He learned about his people largely from books, between early childhood and age seventeen or so. This caused him to adopt the ideal notion of what honor was supposed to mean and an idealized notion of Klingon culture in general. Everyone had given up on the ideals. The leaders had turned their back on honor and Worf was an inconvenient reminder of true honor.
Then Martok came along and joined Worf as the first truly honorable Klingon male Worf had ever met. We were intended to cheer when Worf killed Gowron because it was Worf finally indicating he was done suffering fools like Gowron who had a perverted and hollow notion of honor. Then Worf handed the reins of power to the one honorable Klingon we'd ever seen, the only man who lived up to Worf's ideals: Martok.
Any other reading is adopted a perverse RPGer mentality, like trying to adopt the Joker's position in a Batman comic.
The writers who did Star Trek weren't really trying to invent truly alien cultures but create mirrors of our own to teach us about ourselves. The idea of a totally alien notion of the word "honor" would be the kind of pure sci-fi speculation that canon Trek never really dealt in. That's the kind of thing the books might do but in this case, even the books flat out said Worf understood true honor in the Klingon culture and was the one who practiced it.
The whole point of that arc was to show us how people who preach certain values very loudly rarely practice them and how hypocrites exploit ideologies unless someone forces them to live up to their ideals. You toss that idea, you toss the whole point of that arc out in order to prop up dishonorable Klingons as the norm.
Interesting post.
Answering the OP:
1) ST IP is heavily focused on the Federation and primarily humans. Aliens, and Alien cultures generally serve as a backdrop or contrast to where humanity is, where it came from and where it might be going in this IP.
2) Overall poor development, and several mistakes on Cryptic's part.
3) Lack of a coherent or consistent idea of what it really is to be a Klingon throughout the star trek IP.
4) Even poorer representation of Klingons in STO, managing to combine all of the worst aspects of Klingons from the series to make them an almost entirely "bad guy" race + the absolutely terrible idea of adding a bunch of thug races for a "Horde in space" feel that is quite frankly silly.
My guess is that even if the KDF had a full 50/50 share of all development, we would never have more than 25% or 30% of the playerbase actively playing KDF - and an even smaller number would be KDF only.*
*This may lead to several posters posting their anecdotal 1 person "I play KDF only" as they feel obliged to add this even though it is irrelevant.
Except you still can't attribute human definitions to an alien races society and expect it to all distill out the same as what one was taught honor to be. The driving societal cues will be different and in this case alien.
Such a fact was evident in our on Earthly cultures and the definition of Honor varied from what society you happened to live in on what continent and region of the world.
So while the Humans may find some actions of the Klingons dishonorable, it is only becuase they are defining them from a human standpoint. Those same actions may be compeltely normal for a Klingon warrior and bring no dishonor.
A good example is the Klingon word for greeting, "nuqneH" (What do you want?).
A human may find this brusque and blunt without the personal and polite flow of greeting they are used too in a civilized society, but to a Klingon it is a pleasant as saying, " Hello, what can I do for you?".
Or take the Ferengi for example. Humans see them as the greedy used caresalesmen of the galaxy, yet to themselves the Ferengi are just practing smart and good bussiness.
The granting of human civilities we place on other cultures are dangerous as it removes our understanding that though these actions seem to have a similair drive behind them the culture we are seeing may not not be driven by those same reasons we assume.
Except you still can't attribute human definitions to an alien races society and expect ...
Maybe when we meet a true alien race we will need to have this conversation.
For the time being we are discussing a fictional group of aliens, who were written by human writers (of predominantly western culture) for a human audience (predominantly western) and those writers drew from human history & human cultures to create this fictional "alien" race with the very specific goal of originally creating a "bad guy" and later on contrasting where humanity "is" in the Star Trek timeline.
Maybe when we meet a true alien race we will need to have this conversation.
For the time being we are discussing a fictional group of aliens, who were written by human writers (of predominantly western culture) for a human audience (predominantly western) and those writers drew from human history & human cultures to create this fictional "alien" race with the very specific goal of originally creating a "bad guy" and later on contrasting where humanity "is" in the Star Trek timeline.
No need to wait. This particular habit to overwrite ones societal definitions and drives over anothers has already been played out in the course of human history and the lessons have been learned from it.
When the Europeans met the native Americans, The Spanish met the Japanese,etc etc. Assumptions where made as to the drives, hieght of society, and even definitions of what we thought where unviseral processes common to any society and mistakes based on those assumptions followed becuase we did not stop to considered the new societies viewpoint.
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Just the principles don't make sense to me.
Like them been a honourable race, yet they fly around in their cloaked ships killing unsuspecting victims.
From my point of view, a race like that would never use a technology that inhibits their enemies abilities to fight a great honourable battle.
Because why would a confrontational race who loves a good battle, stab you in the back?
To me that's a fail, and completely contradicts the honourable part.
I can still respect the fans for loving the klingons, they do have a awesome charisma if you forget that one flaw.
Just remember my view is nothing but personal...and I'm only simply trying to explain why I don't have the desire to play them.
Also, personally, I love the federation ship designs a lot more than the klingons, which is a big decider for me, I love ships.
I just wish I could join the Terran Empire, so I don't have to be a goody to shoes with sweet honeyed words, diplomat like race all the time.
The samuria where focused on honor and yet they would misstreat the lower classes often.
Chivalry was the honor of the knight and nobility yet they did not always act with honor.
even our own modern military pratices stealth technology in war and yet they have warrior grasp of honor.
So why would you expect the klingons, once again a completely alien society, to act with the human definition of honor when we cant even act with honor ourselves based on your reasoning?
R.I.P
As the show "American Pickers" has taught me, one man's trash is another man's treasure
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: NPW Forums
Cryptic never cared.
- KDF was released not as it was intended. Yes it was supposed ot be more PvP oriented, BUT it was supposed to almost be a mirror faction in regards to content in PvE, etc. Cryptic had to hurry to meet the dealine and the BS "PvP Faction" was labeled on it. Then Cryptic stopped paying attention and focused on Starfleet Online. Simple as they.
But you could actually make use of that "trash" :P
I was realy impressed with the Alpha mission on the KDF side. It basicly nailed what i wanted to see on my Klingon. I cant praise it enough, and i cant thank the devs enough for that. In general i might a bit of a negative/pesimistic note on the forums. But thats only because i recognize there is some potential, and various issues keep stopping that potential from being shown.
Dstahl loves Klingons. He wrote a song about them that he plays on guitar (seriously, they need to get him in-game ala WoW's Level 80 Elite Tauren Chieftans). Pretty sure he owns a Bat'leth.
Dstahl also loves his job, his employees, and having a check he can bring home to support his family.
I think what happened was, pretty much, he made the hail mary case for Klingons. They ran the numbers. They found they could get more revenue... but not ENOUGH more revenue.
Fixing the Klingon faction, by my napkin math, would probably take a minimum of $10 million USD.
Cryptic's games have a budget of around $20-30 million USD and they're investigating cheaper to produce online co-op games.
So that $10 million that could go to the Klingon faction MIGHT generate a profit. It might not. But even if it does, is it worth scrapping an entirely separate game for? That's where the cost evaluation comes into play.
I'm gonna guess STO has 40-50 thousand Klingons, including people like me who play both sides. I'm gonna guess people who play predominantly or only Klingon are a small fraction of that who both spend less money and are less likely to buy the C-Store purchases that are there.
In many ways, Cryptic goofed with KDF. I think they'd acknowledge this. But any partial fix that draws KDFers in is probably just going to attract more dissatisfied or low spending players and increase pressure for a complete fix. A complete fix is the better growth option but the money makes more sense being spent on another game.
I think the cost-benefit analysis is probably just to support the KDF players we have but not really try to expand their number... and then to fold the faction if it shrinks to a certain point. And I think Dan Stahl hates that answer. I bet he looks for ideas all the time to bypass that logic. But unless he can bypass the numbers he's presented with, the idea is what? That he says, "To heck with my job!" and hires 20 people to work in a room with paper taped up over the windows so that his bosses don't catch him and fire him until those 20 people's payroll comes in at the end of the month?
You raise some good points. In return, I'm just going to say this...either Cryptic/PW believes in STO's longevity, or they don't.
If it's the former, than expansions are necessary to keep the game fresh. The most profitable expansions would involve new factions. New playable races, boffs, doffs, and ships in the cstore would bring new money in from both new and existing players. The best way to make new factions is begin now with the KDF. Use the KDF as a template for the new factions? Why the KDF and not the Feds? The Federation is pretty unique. The Romulans, Dominion, Breen, Caradssians are all far more like the KDF than they are the Federation.
Make it, and make it right, and they will come.
Dstahl, Cryptic, and the KDF have a "very cloudy" history together, to put it kindly. Some very murky, dangerous waters there. Seeing the state the faction is in 2 years after the game going live is kind of distressing.
You say Dstahl loves the Klingons. Hell, a few of their employees have jumped on the KDF-centric subforums and have said that they too love the Klingons and try to push for them whenever they can. Dstahl said something similar years ago.
But again, looking at the state the Federation is in, looking at the state the KDF is in, all throughout the history of this game, and it's easy to see where Cryptic's feelings lie with the Klingons. It becomes even more apparent when anyone plays alot of time with both factions.
Simply put, if you put little effort and love into something, should you be surprised if it doesn't grow and expand?
No.
All their efforts have gone into the Federation since even before the game was released. Take a look at the condition the Federation and KDF factions were when the game came out. Cryptic has never really closed that gap.
There's only 1 thing neglected more than the KDF in STO, and that is PVP, which literally has received NO attention whatsoever.
And Cryptic seems surprised that something totally neglected hasn't blossomed. Again.
If there is indeed fewer devs working on STO, then this is a guarantee that the KDF will never, ever be on equal par with the Federation, to be a Lv1 thru cap faction to provide the full experience like the Federation.
And it's a guarantee that we'll never see another full faction in the game. Romulans? Never. Cardassians? Never. Dominion? A total joke to occur. Their highly symbolic Bugships are lottery rewards now. The day the Dominion are ever a playable, full-on faction is when actual World Peace occurs on our planet Earth.
Why do you think they're surprised? I do not think they're surprised at all, really.
I think they wanted to do something that they didn't have the money for. It would generate revenue, yes, but they didn't have the money to invest when they were under Atari. They got under Perfect World, which meant money influx. Stahl made the case for it. They said, "We'll put some money into Cryptic but you should consider whether this is cost effective. You are talking about a large sum of money that would mean scrapping another game if you spent it on the KDF."
There is no reason to develop the KDF aside from passion and love for the KDF. You might bring in $1 million dollars in a year in a wild dream scenario but it would be irresponsible to do so if another game would cost twice as much as fixing the KDF faction (which would take 10 years to pay off the development) and that new game would generate an anticipated minimum of $10 million in a year and pay itself off in 2 years. You are talking about gambling with people's jobs (including his own) on something that the math doesn't currently support.
One thing to keep in mind is, too. They ticked off a lot of Klingon players. That doesn't mean it was right but sometimes when you TRIBBLE something up, it's better to walk away than fix it and hope those customers are happy somewhere else. The ones who stick with you, you might want to be nice to but you also might not have the ability to ever make good on the TRIBBLE up either.
Which is where we're at, I think.
I like the federation but If the KDF was actually able to level from 1 to 50 in PvE like i can Fed side i would have more than 1 KDF char.
The KDF char i have was leveled almost completely on explore missions which got very tedius to say the least.
I said this two years ago and still believe it to this day.
The KDF was a after thought just thrown into game. Since it was an after thought it was decided the easiest way to get it running was to make it a PvP faction. Since the KDF was an after thought it is still continuing to be treated as such. They have no real interest in bringing it up to spec with the federation side.
Which does not bod well for any other faction that may come down the line
Actual Join Date : Feb 2010
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Oh my god are you not human...quick call the F.B.I. :P
Like I said before my reasoning is my own and I don't expect you to agree on it.
It's just how I personally feel about the definition of honour. And because i am human i cant help but think like one.:rolleyes:
If you think its honourable to uncloak and destroy a ship that might not even of had the chance to raise shields, it's fine by me.
I'm I the only person that was not glad I didn't have to do 1-19 on the Klingon side? That was the worst part of leveling a Fed. I was more than happy to start off at a Cmdr level in a fully fitted BoP as a Klingon.
That's why I play a Gorn instead. I don't have to justify anything. :P
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I weary of the chase. Wait for me. I shall be merciful and quick."
I mean, words like Oo-Mox or Guramba don't translate because the concept isn't exactly *ahem* or "courage." It may have some unique provisos and be a charged concept but Klingon honor is just as much the human idea of honor as Ferengi profit is the human idea of profit.
The CONCEPT of the honor is absolutely analogous. The whole point of most of the Klingon episodes of TNG and DS9 were that the Klingons were mostly hypocrites who had lost their way. Heck, that's further what drove the augment retcon and why the TOS Klingons acted differently.
Honor had become perverted to become synonymous with reputation and rules, much like many real world belief systems become ruled by demagogues. This is Worf's story. He learned about his people largely from books, between early childhood and age seventeen or so. This caused him to adopt the ideal notion of what honor was supposed to mean and an idealized notion of Klingon culture in general. Everyone had given up on the ideals. The leaders had turned their back on honor and Worf was an inconvenient reminder of true honor.
Then Martok came along and joined Worf as the first truly honorable Klingon male Worf had ever met. We were intended to cheer when Worf killed Gowron because it was Worf finally indicating he was done suffering fools like Gowron who had a perverted and hollow notion of honor. Then Worf handed the reins of power to the one honorable Klingon we'd ever seen, the only man who lived up to Worf's ideals: Martok.
Any other reading is adopted a perverse RPGer mentality, like trying to adopt the Joker's position in a Batman comic.
The writers who did Star Trek weren't really trying to invent truly alien cultures but create mirrors of our own to teach us about ourselves. The idea of a totally alien notion of the word "honor" would be the kind of pure sci-fi speculation that canon Trek never really dealt in. That's the kind of thing the books might do but in this case, even the books flat out said Worf understood true honor in the Klingon culture and was the one who practiced it.
The whole point of that arc was to show us how people who preach certain values very loudly rarely practice them and how hypocrites exploit ideologies unless someone forces them to live up to their ideals. You toss that idea, you toss the whole point of that arc out in order to prop up dishonorable Klingons as the norm.
Not the only one.
I hate low levels, in this or any MMO.
Being able to skip the first 20 levels of boredom where I fly around in a slow, crappy ship with a tiny handful of powers and 3 weapon slots is actually one of the majorly appealing factors of making a new character KDF side (and for many of my friends).
Interesting post.
Answering the OP:
1) ST IP is heavily focused on the Federation and primarily humans. Aliens, and Alien cultures generally serve as a backdrop or contrast to where humanity is, where it came from and where it might be going in this IP.
2) Overall poor development, and several mistakes on Cryptic's part.
3) Lack of a coherent or consistent idea of what it really is to be a Klingon throughout the star trek IP.
4) Even poorer representation of Klingons in STO, managing to combine all of the worst aspects of Klingons from the series to make them an almost entirely "bad guy" race + the absolutely terrible idea of adding a bunch of thug races for a "Horde in space" feel that is quite frankly silly.
My guess is that even if the KDF had a full 50/50 share of all development, we would never have more than 25% or 30% of the playerbase actively playing KDF - and an even smaller number would be KDF only.*
*This may lead to several posters posting their anecdotal 1 person "I play KDF only" as they feel obliged to add this even though it is irrelevant.
Such a fact was evident in our on Earthly cultures and the definition of Honor varied from what society you happened to live in on what continent and region of the world.
So while the Humans may find some actions of the Klingons dishonorable, it is only becuase they are defining them from a human standpoint. Those same actions may be compeltely normal for a Klingon warrior and bring no dishonor.
A good example is the Klingon word for greeting, "nuqneH" (What do you want?).
A human may find this brusque and blunt without the personal and polite flow of greeting they are used too in a civilized society, but to a Klingon it is a pleasant as saying, " Hello, what can I do for you?".
Or take the Ferengi for example. Humans see them as the greedy used caresalesmen of the galaxy, yet to themselves the Ferengi are just practing smart and good bussiness.
The granting of human civilities we place on other cultures are dangerous as it removes our understanding that though these actions seem to have a similair drive behind them the culture we are seeing may not not be driven by those same reasons we assume.
R.I.P
Maybe when we meet a true alien race we will need to have this conversation.
For the time being we are discussing a fictional group of aliens, who were written by human writers (of predominantly western culture) for a human audience (predominantly western) and those writers drew from human history & human cultures to create this fictional "alien" race with the very specific goal of originally creating a "bad guy" and later on contrasting where humanity "is" in the Star Trek timeline.
No need to wait. This particular habit to overwrite ones societal definitions and drives over anothers has already been played out in the course of human history and the lessons have been learned from it.
When the Europeans met the native Americans, The Spanish met the Japanese,etc etc. Assumptions where made as to the drives, hieght of society, and even definitions of what we thought where unviseral processes common to any society and mistakes based on those assumptions followed becuase we did not stop to considered the new societies viewpoint.
R.I.P