Now with that said, it definitely is more awkward to fly a raptor because of the pivot point, but I have never noticed any actual disadvantage.
For me, that's the biggest point. It feels *awkward*. Every other ship turns so nicely around a center-ish pivot point, the large ships feel like they're gracefully changing course, the small ships bank in like aircraft. The Qin just.. swings its nose around like its aft is stuck. I hate looking at how in maneuvers because it turns like no other ship in the game does, which points to it being a bug with how the ship was designed, and not having it set that way on purpose.
Ship combat is supposed to be like 'tall ships in space'. The Qin especially turns like *no* tall ship I've ever seen.
As far as I'm aware, STO does not derive turn rate from things like center of mass and power, etc. it is simply a given statistic like shield strength. It can be modified by things like consoles and engine speed, but geometry is not one of them.
This means it doesn't actually take longer for a raptor to turn than a fed escort. They have the same turn rate, therefore they cover the same angular distance in the same time period. It doesn't matter how long the clock's minute hand is, it still takes an hour to turn completely around.
Now with that said, it definitely is more awkward to fly a raptor because of the pivot point, but I have never noticed any actual disadvantage.
It's like telling time on a clock where the hands are connected at the six instead of the middle.
ships dont turn like clockwork, they only turn a certain number of degrees a second from the pivot point. the more 'chocked up' on the ship the pivot point is, the quicker you can get the nose to point were you want it too. pivoting from the very back does cause it to take longer for the nose to be pointed were you want it, so in effect its actual turn rate is less then what its rated at.
ive found that with a raptor 2 copies of omega is needed so it can be up as much as possible. the added reverse speed you get from it is the only thing that keeps it competitive.
ships dont turn like clockwork, they only turn a certain number of degrees a second from the pivot point. the more 'chocked up' on the ship the pivot point is, the quicker you can get the nose to point were you want it too. pivoting from the very back does cause it to take longer for the nose to be pointed were you want it, so in effect its actual turn rate is less then what its rated at.
ive found that with a raptor 2 copies of omega is needed so it can be up as much as possible. the added reverse speed you get from it is the only thing that keeps it competitive.
That's what I'm saying. It screws up turning just as it would be much harder to tell time on a clok with the wrong pivo point for those hands.
I don't see it. If it turns 15 degrees per second, it doesn't matter where it pivots, it covers 15 degrees in a second.
This means that because a raptor's nose is much further from the pivot point, it actually covers more distance in the same time, in other words, moves faster than an escort's nose. But that doesn't matter because the angular rate is the same for each ship.
If the minute hand is turning from the six, yet turning at the same rate, its still going to make a full turn in an hour like any other minute hand.
I don't see it. If it turns 15 degrees per second, it doesn't matter where it pivots, it covers 15 degrees in a second.
This means that because a raptor's nose is much further from the pivot point, it actually covers more distance in the same time, in other words, moves faster than an escort's nose. But that doesn't matter because the angular rate is the same for each ship.
If the minute hand is turning from the six, yet turning at the same rate, its still going to make a full turn in an hour like any other minute hand.
Nope. You have to turn more ship bulk to get pointed where you need to go.
Suddenly, you are trying to turn twice the length forward of the pivet point as a standard Fed escort and it does take long to do it.
Nope. You have to turn more ship bulk to get pointed where you need to go.
Suddenly, you are trying to turn twice the length forward of the pivet point as a standard Fed escort and it does take long to do it.
Math says no it does not. We have two things moving at the same angular rate, the same degrees per second. If one is larger or longer like the raptor, yes it covers more distance, but it does so in the same amount of time as the other, because they are moving at the same rate.
If you want to circumnavigate the earth moving through all the time zones moving through one per day, no more, no less, where is it quicker to do it, at the poles or the equator?
The answer is neither. You cover the same angle in the same time, one per day. Yes the equatorial route is longer and requires you to move faster, but you are covering one time zone per day, either way. The whole circle still takes 24 days whether at the pole or at the equator, because the angular rate is fixed and identical for both.
By the same concept, a raptor nose does have to travel further, but it is actually moving much faster than an escort nose because the angular rate for both is identical, and thus that extra speed is forced upon it so that both noses turn the same amount after the same time.
Math says no it does not. We have two things moving at the same angular rate, the same degrees per second. If one is larger or longer like the raptor, yes it covers more distance, but it does so in the same amount of time as the other, because they are moving at the same rate.
If you want to circumnavigate the earth moving through all the time zones moving through one per day, no more, no less, where is it quicker to do it, at the poles or the equator?
The answer is neither. You cover the same angle in the same time, one per day. Yes the equatorial route is longer and requires you to move faster, but you are covering one time zone per day, either way. The whole circle still takes 24 days whether at the pole or at the equator, because the angular rate is fixed and identical for both.
By the same concept, a raptor nose does have to travel further, but it is actually moving much faster than an escort nose because the angular rate for both is identical, and thus that extra speed is forced upon it so that both noses turn the same amount after the same time.
However, a Defiant with a mid pivot point is turning twice as fast as both sides of the pivot point (fore and aft) are turning at the same time vs. the raptor which by having a rear pivot point only has the forward end moving at the one time as there is no ship left behind the pivot point.
So, a Defiant moves faster through a top as it is more like a top with both ends moving at one time.
So to use your equiator theory, it is like there are two of you walking and covering half the distance each for the defiant representation.
I don't see it. If it turns 15 degrees per second, it doesn't matter where it pivots, it covers 15 degrees in a second.
This means that because a raptor's nose is much further from the pivot point, it actually covers more distance in the same time, in other words, moves faster than an escort's nose. But that doesn't matter because the angular rate is the same for each ship.
If the minute hand is turning from the six, yet turning at the same rate, its still going to make a full turn in an hour like any other minute hand.
you would think it would work like that, but it just doesn't. its like it pivots from dead aft, but how far the nose is from that point is were turning is calculated. seems like the closer the pivot point is to the nose of a ship the more effective the rated turn rate is. if ships were just turning 15 degrees a second, you would be right and the nose would be rotating faster. but that simply isnt whats happening.
Math says no it does not. We have two things moving at the same angular rate, the same degrees per second. If one is larger or longer like the raptor, yes it covers more distance, but it does so in the same amount of time as the other, because they are moving at the same rate.
By the same concept, a raptor nose does have to travel further, but it is actually moving much faster than an escort nose because the angular rate for both is identical, and thus that extra speed is forced upon it so that both noses turn the same amount after the same time.
the nose doesn't move faster, it clearly doesn't. fly the thing for 5 seconds and you can see how slowly it rotates. perhaps its inertia or something that's missing. the 'weight' of the ship behind the pivot point that helps whip the nose around faster. the raptor seems to completely lack that. there is something, just use the ship back to back with a fed escort and its obvious that there is a difference.
even if we are ALL just imagining it, its still a problem in a dog fight. you enemy can easily get behind your firing arc when you are reversing and trying to point your very long nose at him. with fed escorts its much easier to reverse and get a point blank target in your firing arc.
Ok for car nuts out there. A smaller circle spins faster than a bigger circle. Small wheels on a car accelerate faster than big wheels. Sci project time kids. Take two things lets say a ruler and a pencil. But them on a piece of paper now draw a 90 degree arc using the ruler and a 90 degree arc using the pencil. Now tak a string and measure both arcs the arc with the ruler as the radius will be much larger than the pencil. Degrees do not measure distance they measure angles. The farther you get from the center point the distance between degrees (two points) increase. Hence why the distance around an oval track is the inside lane, that is why circuit races in the olympics run staggered starting positions.
you would think it would work like that, but it just doesn't. its like it pivots from dead aft, but how far the nose is from that point is were turning is calculated. seems like the closer the pivot point is to the nose of a ship the more effective the rated turn rate is. if ships were just turning 15 degrees a second, you would be right and the nose would be rotating faster. but that simply isnt whats happening.
I haven't observed that at all.
the nose doesn't move faster, it clearly doesn't. fly the thing for 5 seconds and you can see how slowly it rotates. perhaps its inertia or something that's missing. the 'weight' of the ship behind the pivot point that helps whip the nose around faster. the raptor seems to completely lack that. there is something, just use the ship back to back with a fed escort and its obvious that there is a difference.
even if we are ALL just imagining it, its still a problem in a dog fight. you enemy can easily get behind your firing arc when you are reversing and trying to point your very long nose at him. with fed escorts its much easier to reverse and get a point blank target in your firing arc.
I have to completely disagree. I've been flying the raptor for a year and a half now, and I have had a fleet escort for slightly longer. Both of them are set up very similarly, and have virtually identical turn rates. And this bears out in game, they turn at the same rates. The raptor has never felt slower, nor is it actually slower in practice.
They both display a 34.7 degree turn rate, and both take ~10s to do a 360 degree turn, which is unsurprising, at least to me.
However everyone else is saying that somehow the raptor should be doing that turn in what, 12, 15s? It doesn't, they turn at the same rate, both noses coming back to the same facing after the same time.
And for extreme point blank, the raptor only fires torpedoes from its nose, cannons come out of the wings, but I can maybe count those situations on one hand where I'm THAT close to someone.
Again I want it to be changed, the real issue is that it is awkward to tell how it is angled due to the pivot point. But any other concerns that it is slower or can't turn with Fed escorts it just isn't true in my experience.
I'm finding the Subspace Jumper console eliminates the "dogfight" issue.....
If only I could use it on my Raptor but it only works on the BoP or Sci ships.
The Ch'Tang class comes equipped with a Subspace Jump Console which allows the ship to make a quick warp hop and appear behind its target. The Subspace Jump console may be equipped in any console slot on any Bird-of-Prey or Science Vessel.
But ... it might get me to climb out of my raptor long enough to dust off the ole BoP on the character I'm currently working with.
Comments
For me, that's the biggest point. It feels *awkward*. Every other ship turns so nicely around a center-ish pivot point, the large ships feel like they're gracefully changing course, the small ships bank in like aircraft. The Qin just.. swings its nose around like its aft is stuck. I hate looking at how in maneuvers because it turns like no other ship in the game does, which points to it being a bug with how the ship was designed, and not having it set that way on purpose.
Ship combat is supposed to be like 'tall ships in space'. The Qin especially turns like *no* tall ship I've ever seen.
My mission is to squash bugs whenever I see one.
It's like telling time on a clock where the hands are connected at the six instead of the middle.
ive found that with a raptor 2 copies of omega is needed so it can be up as much as possible. the added reverse speed you get from it is the only thing that keeps it competitive.
That's what I'm saying. It screws up turning just as it would be much harder to tell time on a clok with the wrong pivo point for those hands.
This means that because a raptor's nose is much further from the pivot point, it actually covers more distance in the same time, in other words, moves faster than an escort's nose. But that doesn't matter because the angular rate is the same for each ship.
If the minute hand is turning from the six, yet turning at the same rate, its still going to make a full turn in an hour like any other minute hand.
Nope. You have to turn more ship bulk to get pointed where you need to go.
Suddenly, you are trying to turn twice the length forward of the pivet point as a standard Fed escort and it does take long to do it.
Math says no it does not. We have two things moving at the same angular rate, the same degrees per second. If one is larger or longer like the raptor, yes it covers more distance, but it does so in the same amount of time as the other, because they are moving at the same rate.
If you want to circumnavigate the earth moving through all the time zones moving through one per day, no more, no less, where is it quicker to do it, at the poles or the equator?
The answer is neither. You cover the same angle in the same time, one per day. Yes the equatorial route is longer and requires you to move faster, but you are covering one time zone per day, either way. The whole circle still takes 24 days whether at the pole or at the equator, because the angular rate is fixed and identical for both.
By the same concept, a raptor nose does have to travel further, but it is actually moving much faster than an escort nose because the angular rate for both is identical, and thus that extra speed is forced upon it so that both noses turn the same amount after the same time.
However, a Defiant with a mid pivot point is turning twice as fast as both sides of the pivot point (fore and aft) are turning at the same time vs. the raptor which by having a rear pivot point only has the forward end moving at the one time as there is no ship left behind the pivot point.
So, a Defiant moves faster through a top as it is more like a top with both ends moving at one time.
So to use your equiator theory, it is like there are two of you walking and covering half the distance each for the defiant representation.
you would think it would work like that, but it just doesn't. its like it pivots from dead aft, but how far the nose is from that point is were turning is calculated. seems like the closer the pivot point is to the nose of a ship the more effective the rated turn rate is. if ships were just turning 15 degrees a second, you would be right and the nose would be rotating faster. but that simply isnt whats happening.
the nose doesn't move faster, it clearly doesn't. fly the thing for 5 seconds and you can see how slowly it rotates. perhaps its inertia or something that's missing. the 'weight' of the ship behind the pivot point that helps whip the nose around faster. the raptor seems to completely lack that. there is something, just use the ship back to back with a fed escort and its obvious that there is a difference.
even if we are ALL just imagining it, its still a problem in a dog fight. you enemy can easily get behind your firing arc when you are reversing and trying to point your very long nose at him. with fed escorts its much easier to reverse and get a point blank target in your firing arc.
I haven't observed that at all.
I have to completely disagree. I've been flying the raptor for a year and a half now, and I have had a fleet escort for slightly longer. Both of them are set up very similarly, and have virtually identical turn rates. And this bears out in game, they turn at the same rates. The raptor has never felt slower, nor is it actually slower in practice.
They both display a 34.7 degree turn rate, and both take ~10s to do a 360 degree turn, which is unsurprising, at least to me.
However everyone else is saying that somehow the raptor should be doing that turn in what, 12, 15s? It doesn't, they turn at the same rate, both noses coming back to the same facing after the same time.
And for extreme point blank, the raptor only fires torpedoes from its nose, cannons come out of the wings, but I can maybe count those situations on one hand where I'm THAT close to someone.
Again I want it to be changed, the real issue is that it is awkward to tell how it is angled due to the pivot point. But any other concerns that it is slower or can't turn with Fed escorts it just isn't true in my experience.
If only I could use it on my Raptor but it only works on the BoP or Sci ships.
But ... it might get me to climb out of my raptor long enough to dust off the ole BoP on the character I'm currently working with.