Simply having a disclaimer in your sales signage that reads caveat emptor does not automatically absolve you of liability, at least not in California or the United States.
Nor does it create a situation of liability in Californie or the United States.
The bottom line: by denying customers information regarding the odds of winning the ship they are denying customers the opportunity to make a properly informed decision regarding whether to purchase the ship. I have to question whether that is an ethical business decision, or even a legal one.
Simply having a disclaimer in your sales signage that reads caveat emptor does not automatically absolve you of liability, at least not in California or the United States.
If you feel that, than I suggest that use go through legal channels to take it on. I have a feeling you will not be on the winning side.
I was more approaching this from a "their random generator is broken" surely it would cost more to give me more 8 hr xp boosts which i honesty i would have bought leveling up other toons then give me one ship when you concider my 8 8hr boosts to my 0 ship
Is it broken? I have seen several "dung beetles" hanging around outside of ESD.
If you feel that, than I suggest that use go through legal channels to take it on. I have a feeling you will not be on the winning side.
In a few weeks when I have some extra time, I am going to make some inquiries to some friends who specialize in these sorts of cases. They have the knowledge, experience, and access to do case-law research that I do not.
The problem with cases like this, especially involving new media and services such as MMO's is that there are probably very few if any decisions relating to a situation like this that ever reached the 9th circuit court or the California Supreme Court. These things tend to be settled out of court with neither side admitting fault.
People spend hundreds of dollars on state lottories each weekend and don't win a penny.
State lotteries disclose the exact odds of winning. Certainly they prey on the ignorant and the poor, but at least the consumer has the opportunity to make an informed choice.
Is it broken? I have seen several "dung beetles" hanging around outside of ESD.
Dunno thats why it would be good to have the odds of winning. it may not be broken at all but there is a point were a deminishing return comes into play because unlike a lottery you don't loose you just don't get what you want. I do have a heap of exocomps and horta that i can give away for nothing on the exchange, I have duty officers which mean i won't be buying off the c-store etc etc
there has to be a balance where i don't get what i want too easily but i don't start winning enough of the other high end rare consumable items that i stop having the need to buy them off the c-store i.e. xp boost
I think people have made some very sound arguments about the ethicality of this practice and the capacity to make an informed purchase when no odds are published.
I sincerely hope some of our Californian residents are able to pursue this matter further to ascertain the legality of the situation.
It's certainly not something I'll be a party to.
You do not have to be a California resident.
If you feel that failing to disclose the odds is a deceptive business practice or constitutes a lottery (which is a criminal act in California) you can file a complaint quickly and easily here:
If enough people file a complaint, there will probably at least be an investigation into whether these grab bags violate State laws against lotteries or constitute an unfair or misleading business practice.
Pretty sure the gov't won't care because no money is up for grabs (i.e. no cash prizes)....the only thing you can win are pixels. Also, you can get a chance to win the ship by running laps at Q's Wonderland.....for free!
Pretty sure the gov't won't care because no money is up for grabs (i.e. no cash prizes)....the only thing you can win are pixels. Also, you can get a chance to win the ship by running laps at Q's Wonderland.....for free!
I think your reasoning is pretty unsound because under that logic, I could hold a lottery for say, the rights to intellectual property (say the royalties for a famous song) worth $1 million in order to avoid State law prohibiting holding a lottery for property. After all, the rights to intellectual property are just some pixels in a scanned and notarized document.
In California, in order to constitute a sweepstakes those who do not pay any money are required to have an equal chance of winning so it is clearly not a sweepstakes seeing as someone who "runs a lap" does not have an equal chance of wining the prize so that whole line of reasoning is fallacious.
I am not saying that I have the answer as to whether this is legal (I doubt anyone does since I doubt the relevant courts have ever ruled on a similar case) or not but I am stating that your line of reasoning is erroneous.
Once again, from the item description in the C-Store:
"Buy a Winter Package to give to a friend, or open it yourself to get one of the following tradable items:
Unique Jem'Hadar Attack Ship
Faction-appropriate Duty Officer Pack
Holographic Science Bridge Officer
8-hour XP Boost
Gekli Space Pet
Targ Pup Pet (Klingon Empire characters only)
Exocomp Pet (Starfleet characters only
Eisilum Crystal Horta Ally
Polytrinic Acid Horta Ally
Holographic Tribble
1-hour XP Boost
Blue Winter Package with a space or ground weapon and holiday crafting materials"
Now if you don't feel you've enough information there to make an informed decision over buying this thing or not, I'd urge you not to buy it.
As I've stated previoulsy, you will always advertise your top prize in things like these. The odds of winning a prize are roughly about 400%, because (in all the boxes I've opened in winter Wonderland) four items have been "won". The odds of winning the top prize are always going to be significantly less.
All common sense really, just a shame such a large number of gamers never covered a lot of maths at School or never went at all.
I got 8 hour boost in my first buy, I think that is great, actually I'm very happy with the entire situaition. I would love the Jem ship but the items details are clearly stated. We get one out of the list. 1 brain cell is needed to know I could get the 8 hour boost 3 times out of 10 and never get the ship once.
I do not believe Cryptic are ripping anyone off, I believe they are ethical.
State lotteries disclose the exact odds of winning. Certainly they prey on the ignorant and the poor, but at least the consumer has the opportunity to make an informed choice.
I understand and acknowledge that, but the odds are not on the ticket for online lotteries and its entirely possible (and probable) for someone to buy lottery tickets for years and never stumble upon the sheet that shows the odds for winning. The states that run the lottery expect with a "reasonable persons" logic that people will never enquire on the odds of winning, nor being aware that there are acutall odds of winning.
In a few weeks when I have some extra time, I am going to make some inquiries to some friends who specialize in these sorts of cases. They have the knowledge, experience, and access to do case-law research that I do not.
The problem with cases like this, especially involving new media and services such as MMO's is that there are probably very few if any decisions relating to a situation like this that ever reached the 9th circuit court or the California Supreme Court. These things tend to be settled out of court with neither side admitting fault.
I wish you the best of luck. (I wont give you the odds of winning .........<groaner....>):D
As far as MMO's being uncharted territory, at leas in the U.S., the will use common law and find legal precedent of something similar, but in a slightly different field, such as mail order and the sort. I'm sure it would go to the state CA. Supreme Court before it goes to the 9th Circus, and thats a good thing. The 9th has a higher percentage of decisions overturned than the other districts.
If you feel that failing to disclose the odds is a deceptive business practice or constitutes a lottery (which is a criminal act in California) you can file a complaint quickly and easily here:
If enough people file a complaint, there will probably at least be an investigation into whether these grab bags violate State laws against lotteries or constitute an unfair or misleading business practice.
Yes, but for a California court to have jurisdiction, one of the two parties (or the actual act itself)must be in California, otherwise it goes to a residing jurisdiction or the Federal system.
Dunno thats why it would be good to have the odds of winning. it may not be broken at all but there is a point were a deminishing return comes into play because unlike a lottery you don't loose you just don't get what you want. I do have a heap of exocomps and horta that i can give away for nothing on the exchange, I have duty officers which mean i won't be buying off the c-store etc etc
there has to be a balance where i don't get what i want too easily but i don't start winning enough of the other high end rare consumable items that i stop having the need to buy them off the c-store i.e. xp boost
If I understand what you are saying, that "nobody loses", that is sort of what I was saying. I was also suggesting that the amount of "dung beetles" that I have seen also suggests that the system isnt broken, ships have been handed out, so that prize is out there and people have recieved them.
I think your reasoning is pretty unsound because under that logic, I could hold a lottery for say, the rights to intellectual property (say the royalties for a famous song) worth $1 million in order to avoid State law prohibiting holding a lottery for property. After all, the rights to intellectual property are just some pixels in a scanned and notarized document.
In California, in order to constitute a sweepstakes those who do not pay any money are required to have an equal chance of winning so it is clearly not a sweepstakes seeing as someone who "runs a lap" does not have an equal chance of wining the prize so that whole line of reasoning is fallacious.
I am not saying that I have the answer as to whether this is legal (I doubt anyone does since I doubt the relevant courts have ever ruled on a similar case) or not but I am stating that your line of reasoning is erroneous.
But the intellectual property has an actual dollar value assigned to it. As of yet, the dung beetle has yet to have a real value attached to it. It can be assumed that it would be 2,000 c-store points, but it could also be 800. It could be a limited value ship that will never be offered to the public via the c-store, people might earn it later. In a court, there does have to be an attached equivalent value attached to it in order for any contract to fulfill its "mirror value" of a deal, be it one penny or one million dollars.
Yes, but for a California court to have jurisdiction, one of the two parties (or the actual act itself)must be in California, otherwise it goes to a residing jurisdiction or the Federal system.
If I understand what you are saying, that "nobody loses", that is sort of what I was saying.
This is patently untrue. While Cryptic claims that the average retail "value" of the prize is 115 CP, many of the packages also contain a blue package, which has no retail value. So, while the law of large numbers guarantees that if you play an infinite amount of times you will eventually get an average positive retail "value" return, it is entirely possible to play a smaller number of times (say ten or twenty) and get nothing of retail "value" in return.
So at best you have a lottery that has a positive rate of return instead of a negative one, but it is still a lottery and you could still wind up with nothing (and of course, this requires assuming that the retail "value" should be considered the true value and ignoring the fact that this lottery is promoting and being played mainly on the basis of winning the ship).
This is patently untrue. While Cryptic claims that the average retail "value" of the prize is 115 CP, many of the packages also contain a blue package, which has no retail value. So, while the law of large numbers guarantees that if you play an infinite amount of times you will eventually get an average positive retail "value" return, it is entirely possible to play a smaller number of times (say ten or twenty) and get nothing of retail "value" in return.
So at best you have a lottery that has a positive rate of return instead of a negative one, but it is still a lottery and you could still wind up with nothing (and of course, this requires assuming that the retail "value" should be considered the true value and ignoring the fact that this lottery is promoting and being played mainly on the basis of winning the ship).
First, I would argue that it isn't "patently" (obviously) untrue. To you, it might be untre, but that doesn't reasonably make it obvious to the rest of the world .
You recieved nothing from a blue package? One of the four box's I had was blue. From that box I got an 8 hour xp boost that is ,what, an 160 cp item?? So what are you arguing that the retail true value of the boxes actually is?
Also, has anyone ACTUALLY asked for the odds from Cryptic???
Also, has anyone ACTUALLY asked for the odds from Cryptic???
There have been numerous posts and threads asking Cryptic for the odds of winning the JH ship. I think the issue of the odds not being posted anywhere is what's getting to a lot of people.
well i was talking to tech support there basic reaction is F U spend more and more, even if you have everythign from before hte F2P build on thge C store so are getting nothing form these boxes. other than s**t :mad:
When I was a child growing up in the 1970's I loved to get cereal that had a prize inside it.
Sometimes it was 1 of several prizes that you'd receive. You knew, even as a kid, that there was a chance
that you were not going to get the exact price you wanted, so you got your mom or dad to buy the box knowing that you either would or would not get the exact price you wanted.
Fast forward to the latest "jem had'ar" ship prize in the box;
It's NOT a raffle ticket you buy, it's a MYSTERY box, which either does or does not contain
the ship. Same principle as a prize in a box of cereal.
To suggest that Cryptic needs to go into a higher level of detail in revealing the chances of you actually
getting the ship is sour grapes on the part of the OP of this thread.
They've already said it is a RARE ship. Which to me it means there is a very slim chance of actually getting it, even if I purchase 100 gift boxes.
What IF the chances are 1 in 1000 in getting it. 999 of those boxes would need to be sold before the ship appears in the 1000th box sold. That's WHY it's RARE!!!
I personally think it's a genius marketing plan that's going to generate ALOT of real world $$$$ for Cryptic from all the people wetting their pants to get that Jem Had'ar ship.
Cryptic doesn't want every Tom, Dom, and Harry flying around in it all over the place. That's WHY it's RARE!!!
People, there is no automatic entitlement to you being GIVEN everything you want in life. For every cry baby on these forums whining about not getting the ship I'm praying that you NEVER get one, just because you seem to think you can whine loud enough to Cryptic that they'll break down in the future and start selling them on the C-Store.
I won the ship on one toon and only purchased 3 holiday packages. I begin knowing I would only buy up to 4 packs because if not I would spend more money then I wanted to spend.
I was taking a gamble because that is all this was is a gamble and I knew going into it that I may not receive the ship. I took a chance and got extremely lucky which is not normally the case for me.
The main thing is I knew I was taking a risk and I was willing to take that risk because I made a decision knowing I may not walk away with a ship but atleast I tried and due to the nature of something like this kind of proceedings I had to be ok with not receiving the ship going into this that is why I set a limit of only buying up to 4 packages and no more.
Comments
Nor does it create a situation of liability in Californie or the United States.
If you feel that, than I suggest that use go through legal channels to take it on. I have a feeling you will not be on the winning side.
People spend hundreds of dollars on state lottories each weekend and don't win a penny.
Is it broken? I have seen several "dung beetles" hanging around outside of ESD.
In a few weeks when I have some extra time, I am going to make some inquiries to some friends who specialize in these sorts of cases. They have the knowledge, experience, and access to do case-law research that I do not.
The problem with cases like this, especially involving new media and services such as MMO's is that there are probably very few if any decisions relating to a situation like this that ever reached the 9th circuit court or the California Supreme Court. These things tend to be settled out of court with neither side admitting fault.
State lotteries disclose the exact odds of winning. Certainly they prey on the ignorant and the poor, but at least the consumer has the opportunity to make an informed choice.
Dunno thats why it would be good to have the odds of winning. it may not be broken at all but there is a point were a deminishing return comes into play because unlike a lottery you don't loose you just don't get what you want. I do have a heap of exocomps and horta that i can give away for nothing on the exchange, I have duty officers which mean i won't be buying off the c-store etc etc
there has to be a balance where i don't get what i want too easily but i don't start winning enough of the other high end rare consumable items that i stop having the need to buy them off the c-store i.e. xp boost
You do not have to be a California resident.
If you feel that failing to disclose the odds is a deceptive business practice or constitutes a lottery (which is a criminal act in California) you can file a complaint quickly and easily here:
http://ag.ca.gov/contact/complaint_form.php?cmplt=CL
If enough people file a complaint, there will probably at least be an investigation into whether these grab bags violate State laws against lotteries or constitute an unfair or misleading business practice.
I think your reasoning is pretty unsound because under that logic, I could hold a lottery for say, the rights to intellectual property (say the royalties for a famous song) worth $1 million in order to avoid State law prohibiting holding a lottery for property. After all, the rights to intellectual property are just some pixels in a scanned and notarized document.
In California, in order to constitute a sweepstakes those who do not pay any money are required to have an equal chance of winning so it is clearly not a sweepstakes seeing as someone who "runs a lap" does not have an equal chance of wining the prize so that whole line of reasoning is fallacious.
I am not saying that I have the answer as to whether this is legal (I doubt anyone does since I doubt the relevant courts have ever ruled on a similar case) or not but I am stating that your line of reasoning is erroneous.
All common sense really, just a shame such a large number of gamers never covered a lot of maths at School or never went at all.
I got 8 hour boost in my first buy, I think that is great, actually I'm very happy with the entire situaition. I would love the Jem ship but the items details are clearly stated. We get one out of the list. 1 brain cell is needed to know I could get the 8 hour boost 3 times out of 10 and never get the ship once.
I do not believe Cryptic are ripping anyone off, I believe they are ethical.
I understand and acknowledge that, but the odds are not on the ticket for online lotteries and its entirely possible (and probable) for someone to buy lottery tickets for years and never stumble upon the sheet that shows the odds for winning. The states that run the lottery expect with a "reasonable persons" logic that people will never enquire on the odds of winning, nor being aware that there are acutall odds of winning.
I wish you the best of luck. (I wont give you the odds of winning .........<groaner....>):D
As far as MMO's being uncharted territory, at leas in the U.S., the will use common law and find legal precedent of something similar, but in a slightly different field, such as mail order and the sort. I'm sure it would go to the state CA. Supreme Court before it goes to the 9th Circus, and thats a good thing. The 9th has a higher percentage of decisions overturned than the other districts.
Yes, but for a California court to have jurisdiction, one of the two parties (or the actual act itself)must be in California, otherwise it goes to a residing jurisdiction or the Federal system.
If I understand what you are saying, that "nobody loses", that is sort of what I was saying. I was also suggesting that the amount of "dung beetles" that I have seen also suggests that the system isnt broken, ships have been handed out, so that prize is out there and people have recieved them.
But the intellectual property has an actual dollar value assigned to it. As of yet, the dung beetle has yet to have a real value attached to it. It can be assumed that it would be 2,000 c-store points, but it could also be 800. It could be a limited value ship that will never be offered to the public via the c-store, people might earn it later. In a court, there does have to be an attached equivalent value attached to it in order for any contract to fulfill its "mirror value" of a deal, be it one penny or one million dollars.
Cryptic is located in Los Gatos.
This is patently untrue. While Cryptic claims that the average retail "value" of the prize is 115 CP, many of the packages also contain a blue package, which has no retail value. So, while the law of large numbers guarantees that if you play an infinite amount of times you will eventually get an average positive retail "value" return, it is entirely possible to play a smaller number of times (say ten or twenty) and get nothing of retail "value" in return.
So at best you have a lottery that has a positive rate of return instead of a negative one, but it is still a lottery and you could still wind up with nothing (and of course, this requires assuming that the retail "value" should be considered the true value and ignoring the fact that this lottery is promoting and being played mainly on the basis of winning the ship).
First, I would argue that it isn't "patently" (obviously) untrue. To you, it might be untre, but that doesn't reasonably make it obvious to the rest of the world .
You recieved nothing from a blue package? One of the four box's I had was blue. From that box I got an 8 hour xp boost that is ,what, an 160 cp item?? So what are you arguing that the retail true value of the boxes actually is?
Also, has anyone ACTUALLY asked for the odds from Cryptic???
Also, has Brendan noticed this thread?
There have been numerous posts and threads asking Cryptic for the odds of winning the JH ship. I think the issue of the odds not being posted anywhere is what's getting to a lot of people.
Sometimes it was 1 of several prizes that you'd receive. You knew, even as a kid, that there was a chance
that you were not going to get the exact price you wanted, so you got your mom or dad to buy the box knowing that you either would or would not get the exact price you wanted.
Fast forward to the latest "jem had'ar" ship prize in the box;
It's NOT a raffle ticket you buy, it's a MYSTERY box, which either does or does not contain
the ship. Same principle as a prize in a box of cereal.
To suggest that Cryptic needs to go into a higher level of detail in revealing the chances of you actually
getting the ship is sour grapes on the part of the OP of this thread.
They've already said it is a RARE ship. Which to me it means there is a very slim chance of actually getting it, even if I purchase 100 gift boxes.
What IF the chances are 1 in 1000 in getting it. 999 of those boxes would need to be sold before the ship appears in the 1000th box sold. That's WHY it's RARE!!!
I personally think it's a genius marketing plan that's going to generate ALOT of real world $$$$ for Cryptic from all the people wetting their pants to get that Jem Had'ar ship.
Cryptic doesn't want every Tom, Dom, and Harry flying around in it all over the place. That's WHY it's RARE!!!
People, there is no automatic entitlement to you being GIVEN everything you want in life. For every cry baby on these forums whining about not getting the ship I'm praying that you NEVER get one, just because you seem to think you can whine loud enough to Cryptic that they'll break down in the future and start selling them on the C-Store.
I was taking a gamble because that is all this was is a gamble and I knew going into it that I may not receive the ship. I took a chance and got extremely lucky which is not normally the case for me.
The main thing is I knew I was taking a risk and I was willing to take that risk because I made a decision knowing I may not walk away with a ship but atleast I tried and due to the nature of something like this kind of proceedings I had to be ok with not receiving the ship going into this that is why I set a limit of only buying up to 4 packages and no more.
Q