i've noticed alot of mentions of escape or killing the guards.... how exactly would a borg manage this, they loose their free will and independant thought.
sure escaping a prison could salvage some honor but i dont think there is any way to get yourself out of the colective
That is kind of the point. A drone can't do anything. Its not like a prisoner that can make a choice to try and escape or kill himself in prison. A klingon that tries to go down fighting doesn't know for certain that he'll be killed, no matter how hard he fights. He could be assimilated against his will. So, where is the dishonor in that? Its not like he made a bad choice. Its not like he chose to do the dishonorable thing.
That is kind of the point. A drone can't do anything. Its not like a prisoner that can make a choice to try and escape or kill himself in prison. A klingon that tries to go down fighting doesn't know for certain that he'll be killed, no matter how hard he fights. He could be assimilated against his will. So, where is the dishonor in that? Its not like he made a bad choice. Its not like he chose to do the dishonorable thing.
the dishonor is letting your self be captures, not in not escaping
the dishonor is letting your self be captures, not in not escaping
But they didn't let themselves be captured. They were assimilated by microscopic nanoprobes being forcibly injected into them during the heat of battle, and they fought with all their might up until the moment that they were no longer able to control their own bodies.
It's closer to being killed than captured, really.
As a Klingon if I were assimilated and my fellow warriors found me that way I would hope they would be Klingon enough to kill me! batlh potlh law' yIn potlh puS (Honor is more important than life)
But they didn't let themselves be captured. They were assimilated by microscopic nanoprobes being forcibly injected into them during the heat of battle, and they fought with all their might up until the moment that they were no longer able to control their own bodies.
It's closer to being killed than captured, really.
I think an assimilated Klingon would already be considered lost, & would be destroyed. He would never be trusted again, even if he was somehow "liberated"
Wouldn't such a decision depend on the individual Klingon making it? They are not mental/emotional clones of each other. As a few have mentioned, the Code of Honor is a rather nebulous and mutable thing. One Klingon awakening from assimilation might decide that he or she was so dishonored that they must take their own life. The next might dedicate his "new" life to revenge against the Borg. One Klingon presented with the choice to liberate Klingon drones might slaughter them, the next might liberate them (and for a variety of reasons in either case).
The question might have been better addressed to individual Klingon characters.
In the short story I have going in my head, my Liberated Klingon character was on the same cube as my Liberated Human. The cubiculum was destroyed for certain reasons, and both and several other drones regained their individuality. My Klingon nearly killed himself in shame, when the human said to him, "You have fought long and hard yet won the battle against the collective. Now fight to regain what they wrongfully took from you. Fight to claim your honor again. And help me get the *(#) out of here."
This is four-five years before the game. He was assimilated while in command of K'tinga ship. He fought bravely but was injected with nanites via transporter beams. When he got back to the Empire, no one wanted him around. But each time someone claimed he had no honor, he challenged them on the spot. He ended up winning enough and proving himself often enough they gave him command of a ship with the 'mixed' crews. Soon, he proved he still has more than enough honor, and all the talk about 'letting himself be captured' ended real quick after more Klingon forces actually faced the Borg and came to him for tactics.
As a Klingon if I were assimilated and my fellow warriors found me that way I would hope they would be Klingon enough to kill me! batlh potlh law' yIn potlh puS (Honor is more important than life)
were i found as an assimilated klingon by another i would hope they were klingon enough to kill me
A Klingon would not knowingly "liberate" a Borg. It would kill the Borg.
However if the Borg became liberate through other means (severed from collective, power loss, etc.), the Klingon might hesitate to kill the Klingon-Borg. Being captured is an ultimate dishonor, but getting captured alone is not an automatic honor-breaker. A Klingon would be expected to attempt escape, and if he failed, he would be dishonored.
Borg assimilation offers no means of escape, normally. However if a Klingon found himself cut off from the collective, and then acted honorably and escaped......that Klingon would have satisfied honor.
So really, the only way for a Klingon to be liberated from the Borg is for that Klingon to basically liberate himself.
Klingon honor is very similar to the Romulans and their mnhei'sahe. The interpretation of it varies from person to person. That being said, since on KDF side, I have no true Klingon characters (Orion, Joined Trill, and Alien), they'd liberate them without question, but the Trill knows that re-integration is going to be akin to scaling Mount Everest. As in, a lot of uphill, nearly vertical, and a very long trip.
Klingons have never been known for their compassion, and they prefer not to take prisoners most of the time. To be captured is a great dishonor, and should you be discovered to be alive, it shames the family.
Klingons that die in battle go to Sto'vo'kor. Those who do not go to Grethor. To most Klingons an assimilated Klingon would be as good as dead already. Either because he was captured, or because he's technically a drone and as such as good as dead.
To rescue a dishonored warrior who has been captured is to waste the lives of warriors who are not. I always found the rescue mission into Federation space on the Klingon side to be flawed as well. From this perspective I cannot believe Klingons would liberate Borg of any kind.
From a player perspective I can fully understand that some people want to play Borg, or freed Borg. I will not stop them. I'll probably never create a liberated Borg character myself, but who am I to judge others for having fun?
I cannot and will not tell others how to play their game, the bottom line is, the option to play a liberated Borg is there. I might find it problematic storywise, but there is a certain coolness to being a Borg.
To tell the truth, I can't see the Empire accepting any non-Klingon as an equal warrior into the Klingon Defense Force, be he Gorn or Orion or any other species. People seem to forget, that beyond their pride and honor, Klingons believe their own species to be superior. "I am Klingon!" is a responce to any percieved non-klingon weakness. Klingons are in fact quite racist. I am sorry, but there, I said it.
Most species that aren't Federation seem to be at least somewhat racist. Including Romulans and Cardassians and the Dominion and so on..
That said, I accept that players that play on the Klingon side want to be something else than Klingon. I respect this. it is part of what makes STO such a good game overall, and the overall experience. To me, non-Klingons captaining a Klingon starship is just as strange as a liberated Borg doing so.
I still find it a part of the game and somewhat amusing, despite my own objections to it. Overall, I am happy if we all can simply enjoy the game.
I understand that the movies and the TV shows are all we really have to go bye in order to predict how Klingons will behave, but I think we sell Klingons short by saying their attitudes and philosophies can't evolve at all based on what we saw in the shows. It has been what, 30 years since the events of the Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, etc.? Attitudes and philosophies can change in a major way in that amount of time.
I played the "Blood of the Empire" mission last night. I was talking to the Loresingers in First City, and I asked one of them about Martok. The Loresinger mentioned how Martok, despite being a prisoner, managed to regain his honor and become Chancellor, and that he was accepted as such. The Loresinger went so far as to say that Martok's death at the hands of J'mpok was a great loss, and that the Loresingers, and others, had foreseen that Martok would lead the Empire to great things. I'm paraphrasing here.
On the Barge of the Dead, there is a reference to Klingons having lost their honor, not because they were taken prisoner, but because they died as prisoners.
My conclusion from these references is that being taken prisoner isn't necessarily the death of honor for Klingons. There is a chance for them to regain their honor.
As others have mentioned, Klingon Honor is nebulous and situational. There are two primary issues in this thread. After all the discussion and a review of some of the source material, I can't say for certain that a Klingon would or would not liberate a Klingon that had been assimilated. However, I'm comfortable with the notion that a Klingon that had been assimilated and then liberated could regain his honor and be accepted in the Empire.
i watched birthright again the other day (tng; season 6 epps 16 and 17) and it showed klingons who would rather die than be freed, who chose to stay prisoners because the dishonor of returning would affect their families for 3 generations.
so surely the honorable way to liberate a klingon is with a bat'leth to the throat.
because of this i think the klinogn liberated race should be gorn, as a subdued race i dont think they care too much about their conquors sence of honor and a giant zombie lizard man robot appeals to me for some reason.
(note; i dont expect anything to acctualy change, just putting it out there that i dont think klingons would want to live after being captured)
The borg are diffrent they assamilitae, not capture. As to a liberated Klingon, one played a pivitol role in ST Voyage: Unimatrix 0. I think the Klingons would be more than happy to liberate Borg Klingons. Look at the power boost the worriers would recive. Excelent reflexes, increased strength, intellengce through the roof. Look at what the Klingon empire went through to try an attain the Human Augment DNA for there use.
You can only kill so many Borg before one of them gets its nanotubes in you.
This is the bio of my Klingon. It's how I saw my liberated Borg becoming Klingon again.
"Sometimes... The greatest victory is not won with a blade my son..."
The parting words of Keh'lak, Kraag's adoptive father. Burned into Kraag's skull as surely as the scars that cross his cheek.
A former Borg tactical drone, Kraag was found by a Klingon raiding party wandering alone in the desert of Trelos III, deep inside the Azlesa Expanse. The raiding party approached Kraag, saw his Klingon heritage and immediated attacked to destroy what they saw as an abomination. The battle was swift and bloody... Kraag decimated the raiding party and ventured off, confused, into a nearby cave.
Wondering why comminucation had ceased with his party, the Captain of the I.K.S. Vok'loS sent another strike team. This time, a medical officer by the name of Commander Keh'lak was among them.
Transporting down to the last known location of the first team, Keh'lak immediately realised that the radiation signature in the location was Borg...
Reporting back to the Captain he recommended that whatever killed the team should be captured and studied for the benefit and glory of the Empire in future battles. It was a single drone after all. The Captain disagreed. Orders were sent to "Seek and destroy".
Keh'lak did not agree but drew his disruptor none-the-less. The hunt continued...
Back in the cave Kraag overheard the entire conversation and somehow, deep inside his mind, knew that this Klingon could help him. Battle ensued soon after and ended with eight Klingon slaughtered and Kraag's hands around Keh'lak's throat.
"Don't... don't..." growled Keh'lak, "I can help you".
Kraag's grip loosened and he dropped Keh'lak to the floor. Standing motionless over the helpless warrior he waited for Keh'lak to speak.
"Help me take over the ship and I will return you to your birthright! - You are not Borg.. YOU are KLINGON! ...and now, you are my Son"
Comments
That is kind of the point. A drone can't do anything. Its not like a prisoner that can make a choice to try and escape or kill himself in prison. A klingon that tries to go down fighting doesn't know for certain that he'll be killed, no matter how hard he fights. He could be assimilated against his will. So, where is the dishonor in that? Its not like he made a bad choice. Its not like he chose to do the dishonorable thing.
the dishonor is letting your self be captures, not in not escaping
It's closer to being killed than captured, really.
I think an assimilated Klingon would already be considered lost, & would be destroyed. He would never be trusted again, even if he was somehow "liberated"
The question might have been better addressed to individual Klingon characters.
This is four-five years before the game. He was assimilated while in command of K'tinga ship. He fought bravely but was injected with nanites via transporter beams. When he got back to the Empire, no one wanted him around. But each time someone claimed he had no honor, he challenged them on the spot. He ended up winning enough and proving himself often enough they gave him command of a ship with the 'mixed' crews. Soon, he proved he still has more than enough honor, and all the talk about 'letting himself be captured' ended real quick after more Klingon forces actually faced the Borg and came to him for tactics.
were i found as an assimilated klingon by another i would hope they were klingon enough to kill me
A Klingon would not knowingly "liberate" a Borg. It would kill the Borg.
However if the Borg became liberate through other means (severed from collective, power loss, etc.), the Klingon might hesitate to kill the Klingon-Borg. Being captured is an ultimate dishonor, but getting captured alone is not an automatic honor-breaker. A Klingon would be expected to attempt escape, and if he failed, he would be dishonored.
Borg assimilation offers no means of escape, normally. However if a Klingon found himself cut off from the collective, and then acted honorably and escaped......that Klingon would have satisfied honor.
So really, the only way for a Klingon to be liberated from the Borg is for that Klingon to basically liberate himself.
Klingons that die in battle go to Sto'vo'kor. Those who do not go to Grethor. To most Klingons an assimilated Klingon would be as good as dead already. Either because he was captured, or because he's technically a drone and as such as good as dead.
To rescue a dishonored warrior who has been captured is to waste the lives of warriors who are not. I always found the rescue mission into Federation space on the Klingon side to be flawed as well. From this perspective I cannot believe Klingons would liberate Borg of any kind.
From a player perspective I can fully understand that some people want to play Borg, or freed Borg. I will not stop them. I'll probably never create a liberated Borg character myself, but who am I to judge others for having fun?
I cannot and will not tell others how to play their game, the bottom line is, the option to play a liberated Borg is there. I might find it problematic storywise, but there is a certain coolness to being a Borg.
To tell the truth, I can't see the Empire accepting any non-Klingon as an equal warrior into the Klingon Defense Force, be he Gorn or Orion or any other species. People seem to forget, that beyond their pride and honor, Klingons believe their own species to be superior. "I am Klingon!" is a responce to any percieved non-klingon weakness. Klingons are in fact quite racist. I am sorry, but there, I said it.
Most species that aren't Federation seem to be at least somewhat racist. Including Romulans and Cardassians and the Dominion and so on..
That said, I accept that players that play on the Klingon side want to be something else than Klingon. I respect this. it is part of what makes STO such a good game overall, and the overall experience. To me, non-Klingons captaining a Klingon starship is just as strange as a liberated Borg doing so.
I still find it a part of the game and somewhat amusing, despite my own objections to it. Overall, I am happy if we all can simply enjoy the game.
I played the "Blood of the Empire" mission last night. I was talking to the Loresingers in First City, and I asked one of them about Martok. The Loresinger mentioned how Martok, despite being a prisoner, managed to regain his honor and become Chancellor, and that he was accepted as such. The Loresinger went so far as to say that Martok's death at the hands of J'mpok was a great loss, and that the Loresingers, and others, had foreseen that Martok would lead the Empire to great things. I'm paraphrasing here.
On the Barge of the Dead, there is a reference to Klingons having lost their honor, not because they were taken prisoner, but because they died as prisoners.
My conclusion from these references is that being taken prisoner isn't necessarily the death of honor for Klingons. There is a chance for them to regain their honor.
As others have mentioned, Klingon Honor is nebulous and situational. There are two primary issues in this thread. After all the discussion and a review of some of the source material, I can't say for certain that a Klingon would or would not liberate a Klingon that had been assimilated. However, I'm comfortable with the notion that a Klingon that had been assimilated and then liberated could regain his honor and be accepted in the Empire.
The borg are diffrent they assamilitae, not capture. As to a liberated Klingon, one played a pivitol role in ST Voyage: Unimatrix 0. I think the Klingons would be more than happy to liberate Borg Klingons. Look at the power boost the worriers would recive. Excelent reflexes, increased strength, intellengce through the roof. Look at what the Klingon empire went through to try an attain the Human Augment DNA for there use.
You can only kill so many Borg before one of them gets its nanotubes in you.
"Sometimes... The greatest victory is not won with a blade my son..."
The parting words of Keh'lak, Kraag's adoptive father. Burned into Kraag's skull as surely as the scars that cross his cheek.
A former Borg tactical drone, Kraag was found by a Klingon raiding party wandering alone in the desert of Trelos III, deep inside the Azlesa Expanse. The raiding party approached Kraag, saw his Klingon heritage and immediated attacked to destroy what they saw as an abomination. The battle was swift and bloody... Kraag decimated the raiding party and ventured off, confused, into a nearby cave.
Wondering why comminucation had ceased with his party, the Captain of the I.K.S. Vok'loS sent another strike team. This time, a medical officer by the name of Commander Keh'lak was among them.
Transporting down to the last known location of the first team, Keh'lak immediately realised that the radiation signature in the location was Borg...
Reporting back to the Captain he recommended that whatever killed the team should be captured and studied for the benefit and glory of the Empire in future battles. It was a single drone after all. The Captain disagreed. Orders were sent to "Seek and destroy".
Keh'lak did not agree but drew his disruptor none-the-less. The hunt continued...
Back in the cave Kraag overheard the entire conversation and somehow, deep inside his mind, knew that this Klingon could help him. Battle ensued soon after and ended with eight Klingon slaughtered and Kraag's hands around Keh'lak's throat.
"Don't... don't..." growled Keh'lak, "I can help you".
Kraag's grip loosened and he dropped Keh'lak to the floor. Standing motionless over the helpless warrior he waited for Keh'lak to speak.
"Help me take over the ship and I will return you to your birthright! - You are not Borg.. YOU are KLINGON! ...and now, you are my Son"
Who's with me?
... *crickets*
Hey, I'm down so long as they let me make a Liberated Nausicaan... with an eye patch!