well for klingon ships in general i could see ships that specialize in military tactics. one ship focuses on forward assaults, another focuses on side assaults, and others sit away and send in a wave of assaults (fighters) having 3 different options for carriers in this regard could be a cool way to make them unique.
1. type 1 sits off in cloak, and sends in fighters.. in order to replenish, you need to replicate the parts. having them spawn wave after wave without risk somewhere just adds to the spamming feeling. once the parts are gone, they are gone. you gotta buy more or you are out. maybe other players can stockpile and beam parts over to them as a backup?
i could see a map where you can pick up supplies and take them back to the carrier, kind of a supply run pvp map. might be cool.
2. type 2 has heavy armor, but weak around the engines and forward mount canon. the forward cannon could be a force to be reckoned with. the rest of the ship has weak defenses because all power is supplied to the forward gun.
3. type 3 would be medium armor and has basic weapon capacity from front and back.. but has the capacity to send a barrage of torpedoes or pulse disruptors from a side assault. it has engines that help it maneuver in, port or starboard assault and swoop out.
not a perfect design, but maybe it will provide inspiration somewhere.
The Vor'quv - This is a tough ship to be able to single out how to deal with it. It's a great ship as a support ship. It's turn rate does off set the fact that it's also a powerful ship. And the more Carriers involved, the more powerful it actually becomes. How ever, you take away it's hangers, and it actually becomes a weaker ship. What does it really need? And what does it not need? Good question. I'm sure many anti-carrier players would say it needs several nerfs because compared to the Cruiser, it's very over powered, and compared to a Science ship it's over powered. And I wouldn't be surprised if those nerfs were anything from Reducing it's Hull, to weakening it's shields again, to reducing it's ability to launch fighters in general. Personally, I feel the Vor'quv has been through enough, and I hope it gets left alone for now and the foreseeable future.
The Fighters (Is this also implying Siphon Pods?) - Perhaps the Fighters should be removed from the "Waves" lists and be set to always launch X fighters each bay. Maybe 5 Fighters each Bay for a total Max of 10 Fighters. That would limit the amount of fighters from 5 Carriers to 50 Ships from the currently maximum of 90 Fighters. Not that it bothers me personally, but I do agree at times it can be a handful when there are multiple Carriers on the field of play. Also if the fighters were to be given better survivability that would also help reduce the need to have more of them as well. Perhaps 2 Fighters should be equal to 1 Bird of Prey pet? Then you would only need 12 Fighters to equal 6 Birds of Prey. Which would still limit the amount of Pets on the field from 90 to 60. Either way it would probably still get the desired results, except for those who would still complain about "Spam" when Carriers start to fly around launching Mines as well. :rolleyes:
The Kar'fi - Honestly, I don't know if a "glass carrier" is a good way to go with this ship. For an Aggressive Carrier, it's turn rate is awfully slow. Granted it is better then it was originally, but it's still a very slow ship. And it's survivability suffers because of that turn rate and low speed. And I don't think it's a good Idea to give it basically 10 seconds of what sounds like "You can't hurt me". That is if you actually lose target lock from the Kar'fi for the duration of the power. Now if it was more of an EXTREMLY high defense factor added to the Kar'fi.. Maybe even Max Defense, that might be REALLY nice. And not over powering. It could give it X defense value that while moving at full speed, is near max. (Trait + Aegis set would give it full max). It could still keep the Stealth vs Longer range targets, the ability to pass through things and the like, and it would still thematically be a phase type effect. Or if your not going to use that Idea and you do go with the Power as stated, why not make it so that if some one activates the Subspace Field Modulator, it could actually still hit the Kar'fi, and the Kar'fi could still fire weapons on people who have those powers active? Other wise give the Kar'fi the intrepid-R's turn rate as well as the Phase Shift. At least then it could be more aggressive then it is right now.
Heretic mentions "Kar-fi only" Sci console in the OP. So I am thinking it will not be useful for any other vessel.
The fact that it is a console, makes it a little limited in usefulness. I do understand the drive to make special ship powers tied to consoles instead of the ship itself, but in this case it almost makes more sense to tie the ability to the Kar-fi since it is not (apparently) going to be useful to any other vessel.
That said, with four Sci-console slots on the Kar-fi, giving one up for the sake of a special ability might be a step towards keeping balance. Still, it is pretty restrictive considering that the Phase Shift only lasts 10 seconds and you cannot do the one thing carriers do, which is launch fighters.
Perhaps add a speed boost in as well? It seems like the main perpose of the Phase Shift is to give the Captain a last-ditch chance to escape from combat long enough to heal and regroup a bit. Being able to pass through ships could be useful in that regard as a Captain need not waste time trying to turn the Carrier.
I suppose a good (effective) Captain could get out of combat range in 10 seconds thus effectively "Cloaking" briefly, but I imagine that even if not targetable, most Escorts could easily keep up and at least have eyes (if not a sensor lock) on the target for 10 seconds and renew the bombardment pretty quickly. Which is where the idea of giving the Carrier a speed boost comes in.
Being able to actually get out of combat (and combat range) quickly, so that the stealth bonus would be effective, would be pretty handy.
I don't know, personally I do not PvP much so I do not know how that would all work out in the hands of skilled players. I will definitely be curious to see where this all goes though.
maj!
I definitely agree with giving the phase shift a speed boost.
Phasing should also be capable of being used offensively. Materializing inside another ship should be very, very bad for them.
My Comment regarding the validity of Carriers in the KDF:
It was my distinct impression - especially during the time STO was made, with the timeline videos revealed and such, that the carrier ship configuration was something the Klingon Empire actually took from the Gorn Hegemony (an impression perhaps reinforced for me by the way Gorns played in Starfleet command).
I'm okay with the Vo'Quv being the result of a Klingon Carrier based on reverse engineered Gorn concept... but if the carreirs are to be further explored in the KDF, it's my opinion that the Gorn aesthetic should be what ends up being explored the most.
If the 'Phase Shift' ability gets added to the game, then the Oberth Class Science Vessel, should be given a higher (not max) level tier (USS Pegasus) which adds the Phase Shift/Cloak. Perhaps as a Tier 3/4 "Combat" alternative to the Olympic/Intrepid ?
Or just making the 'Phase Shift' ability as a Universal Console, able to be used on any ship?
This thread is about making Carriers worth a damn, not your already awesome feddie ships.
The Vo'quv has the HP of a cruiser and a repair ability well beyond that. A utility on par with the best science ships the base firepower of a science ship and with the addition of its support ships more I dare say. Its the very definition of unbalanced. I don't see FAW and cutting a fighter or 2 out of the mix as doing anything to really address it.
And is still more than capable of being taken down in PvP if you actually know how. this is not a thread for feddies to invade and cry nerf on Carriers. They were already nerfed, and the Kar'Fi is almost useless.
I definitely agree with giving the phase shift a speed boost.
Phasing should also be capable of being used offensively. Materializing inside another ship should be very, very bad for them.
Hmm, there's an idea. How about making it interact with/mimic Ramming Speed somehow to accomplish that effect? It'd basically do the same thing as Ramming Speed (i.e. speed boost + damage both ships.)
I'd be a bit careful about making one ability do too much stuff on its own, or it'll become too prone to turn into an IWIN button on later rebalancings.
Hmm, there's an idea. How about making it interact with/mimic Ramming Speed somehow to accomplish that effect? It's basically do the same thing as Ramming Speed (i.e. speed boost + damage both ships.)
I'd be a bit careful about making one ability do too much stuff on its own, or it'll become too prone to turn into an IWIN button on later rebalancings.
That's what testing is for, and the Kar'Fi needs all the help it can get right now. It's not going to be fixed with a single power.
Wait shouldn't phase shift be a Federation technology, in accordance with TNG? Or a Romulan technology in accordance with the Typhoon Pack novels? Now it's going to Klingons, that's a very different direction...
Oh well!
It's not Klingon technology, it's Fek'Ihri technology.
The main change i would like to see for Carriers, and i think would benefit them greatly, would be a new power (innate to all carriers) with a 1 minute+ cooldown, which would launch all wings of whatever you have in your bays. (You would still need to be within 15km range.)
This would solve the problem of a long ramp up, and it is easily defended against, because Gravity Well the carrier, or send in some powerful torpedoes and all the fighters etc that were just launched would die.
Thoughts?
I like the idea a lot. If you succeed, you just launched all available fighters, but if your opponent knows what you're doing (maybe give this power a special effect ans a small amount of warning) then you just got your entire squadron destroyed.
On the fighters: To help targeting/toughness it would be good to have fighter wings instead of individuals. Model three or four as a single unit...not sure if your tech would allow this, but it would solve some issues without making it seem weird that a "carrier" has three or four fighters in the whole thing.
I was going to suggest this, but someone beat me to it. So I'll elaborate a bit. ;-)
The biggest misgiving I have about reducing the number of fighters is that I LIKE the idea of launching a big swarm of fighters (that's the whole purpose of a carrier, right?), as opposed to just launching a few. However, I understand how taxing that is on the system! So why not reduce the number of actual entities being launched, but giving the illusion of having just as many (or hey, even more), by making each entity launched look like a tight GROUP of fighters, instead of just one.
So say we knock each hangar down to 2 waves of 3 entities, but each entity LOOKS like a squadron of (let's say) FOUR fighters, in tight formation. In reality each is a singly, mostly-transparant, entity that has four firing points (which correspond to the four visible parts, each of which look like a fighter). Granted, all four die at the same time, but hey, that's squadron loyalty, right? :-) This gives me the illusion that I'm launching *48* fighters...when really, I'm just launching 12 total entities. Make each entitiy a bit tougher than a single fighter is now, and have it do a bit more damage, to keep the overall DPS roughly what it is now, but visually it looks like we're unleashing a SWARM of fighters, in less time, while in reality we're launching fewer entities to ease the server load.
Win-Win!
:-)
I agree that otherwise the VoQuv is in good shape, though I hate that Sensor Scramble can now confuse fighters, but hey, I can live with that. Would be nice to make them recover a lot faster though, to compensate for the fact that we have no way to wipe it off all of them like we can ourselves.
Not crazy about the Kar'Fi Phase Shift idea, but not terribly opposed to it either.
Actually I just thought of a point of possible future contention.
Because the Phase Shift causes ships to their lose locks on the ship, Sci ships would lose their Sensor Analysis (or at least I believe it would). Now I can see validity in leaving as such, but I can see that causing allot of hate too.
If there was a way to make it so that you do not lose your Sensor Analysis buff unless you actually lock on to another ship and just wait for the Kar'fi to become targetable again, maybe this would help alleviate this issue from happening.
Now as I have only flown sci ships a few times, which is bad since I have a VA Sci Officer lol, I could be wrong and my so called fix may already be the way things work. If so my whole point here is complete redundant and unnecessary.
Fighters- Need major overhaul. Launch 5 per bay all at once. Reducing max craft but increase HP and Shields. Timer before being able to relaunch based on AUX power, no timer for de-spawn, this is Star Trek each of these craft are mini star ships after all. Return to carrier and protect till ordered to attack again or till aggroed by enemy fire.
Need variations- Different weapons- Ex.ANTIBORG- Antiproton beam array, photon torpedo launcher, Ex. FIREBIRD- plasma beam array, plasma torpedo launcher
Make S'Kul fighter just another variation of weaponry, no kamikaze mode.
Bomber variation- Come with turret instead of array,2x torpedo launcher and Tri-mine launcher, more shields. Various complimentary setups.
BOP- Launch 1 per Bay no timer on De-spawn, Match HP and Shields to 85% maximum T5 captained versions.
Maybe some variation on weaponry load-outs and damage as rarity value increases.
The Kar'fi Frigate just a variation on BOP weaponry.
NEW SMALL CRAFT- Assault Boat- Very Long Recharge timer(5 min) Launches a Heavy Shuttle(BoP Stats) that flies to target and makes a Viral Matrix 3 attack followed by a Boarding Party 3 attack on target, then returns. Single Disruptor Turret, no additional weapons.
Vo'quv- Needs 3 bays gives more variety and allows for use of other than offensive pets.
Kar'fi- Needs parts for more varied appearance. I like the phase cloak idea but.. this needs more.. improve turn rate to same as NeghVar. Give it a second bay and allow it mount standard small craft.
NEW Kar'fi Small Craft- Fleet Bombardment Torpedo- Shielded small craft, fly's to target ship location, carry's two independently targeted Tricobalt Torpedoes to launch point then fires them at nearby ships, other than primary target. Shielded core than becomes equivalent of a Tricobalt mine detonating at primary target. Very Long recharge timer (5 Minutes).
Lower-Tier Carriers
This is currently under consideration.
Opinions and feedback are welcome, but please keep it productive.
If I could choose a carrier at Lt 1 I'd be over trying out the Klingon side in a flash.
It's a gameplay option that just doesn't exist Fed side and I'd love to try it out. And some of us play for the journey rather than the end, having it as an upper tier ship only means it just gets ignored.
That said, with four Sci-console slots on the Kar-fi, giving one up for the sake of a special ability might be a step towards keeping balance. Still, it is pretty restrictive considering that the Phase Shift only lasts 10 seconds and you cannot do the one thing carriers do, which is launch fighters.
Perhaps add a speed boost in as well? It seems like the main perpose of the Phase Shift is to give the Captain a last-ditch chance to escape from combat long enough to heal and regroup a bit. Being able to pass through ships could be useful in that regard as a Captain need not waste time trying to turn the Carrier.
We are actually moving in the direction of tying more of the special abilities for ships to consoles and wherever possible allowing them to be moved to at least some other ships. It is not completely impossible we would make this console able to be put on other ships, though we are really concerned about balance issues with this, so I think it unlikely.
i love the carriers.
The Vo'quv is the perfect ship. It is one of the few ships that don't cloak and it is the biggest thing on the screen. They need all that HP's to survive all the agro.
The issue is really
1) There is no way to make your pets more powerful if you want to
2) Why can't it use the Kar'fi pets? It doesn't make sence
Also, having all your pets disapear after an alloted time isn't fun as well.
I agree with many of the issues you are describing; some are easier to address than others.
We are looking into what it would take to get higher quality/rarity levels for fighters, and to loosen up to some extent what fighters can go on what carriers, though there's still a lot of discussion and there are some technical challenges to this, unfortunately.
The pets disappearing after the allotted time is something we are looking into, because while I understand why it was done, I think it may be doing more harm than good.
Wait shouldn't phase shift be a Federation technology, in accordance with TNG? Or a Romulan technology in accordance with the Typhoon Pack novels? Now it's going to Klingons, that's a very different direction...
This is pulled directly off of Fek'ihiri tech, which the KDF fights against in one of their unique pieces of content.
And don't worry, we're working on lots more toys for both sides.
My question would be what, if any, powers would be on a shared cool down. Would suck giving us that and acidently have it on a shared cool down as our heals.
Also you do say when active we are untargetable, but does this include friendlies. If not that could make this overpowered, given they COULD have the high level heals.
As I currently have it working internally for testing purposes, it is not on any shared cooldowns, as I felt that would needlessly diminish the flexibility of the ability. It is intended - among other things - to allow you to heal/recover.
Yes, friendlies also cannot target you while this is active; only self abilities will be able to affect the carrier.
Note that while you cannot launch new fighters/frigates for that 10s, existing ones will continue to attack.
The main change i would like to see for Carriers, and i think would benefit them greatly, would be a new power (innate to all carriers) with a 1 minute+ cooldown, which would launch all wings of whatever you have in your bays. (You would still need to be within 15km range.)
This would solve the problem of a long ramp up, and it is easily defended against, because Gravity Well the carrier, or send in some powerful torpedoes and all the fighters etc that were just launched would die.
We are looking into the possibility of reducing the recharges directly, and it should also be noted that there currently are Flight Deck Officers in the Duty Officer system that will reduce the recharge time of both hangers and Boarding Parties as well, when that system goes live.
1) Doesn't matter if people think they fit the IP or not; they're canon. I just bring this up because I do eventually want to see a Federation carrier, and I find the constant barrage of "No carrier for you!" pretty irritating, especially given this factor. I realize that might sound a bit inflammatory - it isn't meant that way however; it's just a simple statement that whether or not we like them, they're canon. (So is Nemesis for that matter. *shrug*)
I understand the sentiment, and believe me, there are people who agree with you internally. I am deliberately not saying "never" just "not on the current horizon". We feel it is important to keep the factions distinctive in some ways, but the specifics on how that is accomplishable are renegotiable as development on the game evolves.
Instead of 3 flights of 3 fighters per hangar bay, why not 2 flights of 3? 12 fighters is still enough to feel like you have a squadron out there... but it's 6 less craft to deal with.
As for making them tougher, I'd prefer to see some kind of evasion bonus for them rather than them simply having more HP... the primary advantage a small ship has in most sci-fi (including Trek), is the whole 'not getting hit' thing. They should, however, explode spectacularly if given a solid smack by a larger ship. The warp core thing could perhaps be solved by given them some resistance to that one particular type of damage. Well that or better AI... I'm all for better AI.
We've actually been looking at all of these possibilities. What we actually do for the next iteration has not been definitively stated, which is one of the reasons for this thread, and whatever we do decide to do I seriously doubt will be the last iteration in this area.
I don't like the toggle console idea myself. That's more of a bandage over the Kar'Fi's problems. I also think one of the Kar'Fi's problems is it's fighter complement. The S'kul fighters... just aren't very good imo. While no fighter tends to survive for a long time, at least the To'Duj don't ram themselves into the enemy.*
All told, the first thing I'd do would be to make a non-ramming S'kul variant or allow Kar'Fi to carry To'Duj.
Adding a second hangar would also be wonderful. I'll have to think more on the Kar'Fi though, I've been so disappointed with it that I've kind of put it out of my mind for a long time. I do remember that my biggest problem was the S'kuls though.
We are, actually, considering allowing the Kar'fi to carry To'Duj.
Additional tweaks to S'kul fighters are also possible, though I want to see how the FAW change affects things before advocating anything too radical.
If I could choose a carrier at Lt 1 I'd be over trying out the Klingon side in a flash.
It's a gameplay option that just doesn't exist Fed side and I'd love to try it out. And some of us play for the journey rather than the end, having it as an upper tier ship only means it just gets ignored.
If we go down that route, lower tier carriers would probably become available at Commander 1...at least initially.
UI Controls
Something like the Bridge Officer UI expanded to add in 2 more slots for "fighter squadrons". (So you have one control per Bay, and all fighters launched by that bay will listen to that control) could work as UI. Of course, that doesn't make it any easier to implement. Alternative:
The Vo'Quv currently has subsystem targeting. Ditch that, and use those 4 buttons as Pet control instead. Give the Vo'Quv some other buff to make up for losing subsystem targeting. (Maybe Sensors Analysis instead?)
Pet Numbers
Give pets an innate defense bonus similar to how the Escorts have it already, but bigger.
Pet Mainatance
Currently it isn't really worth or possible to try to heal and repair pets. Maybe some powers could have a secondary effect that buffs the pets? Maybe if you pop Emergency Power to Shields, the pets regenerate some shields ,if you activate Auxillary to Integrity Field they get a small hull heal.
The more resistent pets can get, the less you can make do with.
Carrier Maneuverability
Would it be possible to make Carriers slower in speed but better in turn rate? That might be more manageable for players and less annoying. (But maybe it would cause other issues, like the enemies always walking away from the Carrier.)
Pet Damage
I have the impression that the major damage input from pets (and NPCs often) are the torpedoes. Even against shields. Is everything working as intended there? There are some that suggest NPC torpedoes ignore the 75 % kinetic damage resistance of shields.
Anything that reduces the spam is welcome. Or at least remove the shaking screen part, when dozen torpedoes hit my ship....and the ugly noises....and and......REMOVE THE SPAM ! :rolleyes::o
2. more focus on supporting and fabricating their fighters. building fighters using parts would eliminate the need for spawning them in and out. you call squad 1 back for repair as you send out squad 2. if one is destroyed, assign a replacement based on your arsenal. if your arsenal runs low or out, you have to build the replacements using the said parts. if you run out of fighters AND parts, then you have to unhide and either fight or run. when the fight is over, the question is how do you resupply?
i see a few options:
-when you spawn out of the instance, it automatically resupplies
-when you spawn out of the instance, you get a resupply from some sort of delivery system. maybe receive free from resupply ships and starbases from your faction. any non faction 3rd party suppliers like couriers you have to pay a fee to receive.
3. give them other capabilities, like less fighter bays and more armaments, or less armor for speed, or less speed for extra fighter bays.
as for adding the duty officer system, adding better pilots should yield better results, as in the squad with better pilots, or a lead pilot, will get better evasion (miss chances) than those from lower experience.
To this end, we are considering the following changes:
1. Adding a second hanger bay.
2. Adding a Kar-fi-only Science console with a power called Phase Shift based off of the Fek'ihri escort NPC currently in the game. This console would come with the ship. If we do this, existing Kar'fi would be given this console for free.
1.) A second hangar bay? And I supoose that implies doubling the amount of pets that can be out at any point? Bad idea in my opinion, unless you do some fundamental changes to the karfi frigates. They are the most powerful carrier pets and their use of Aceton Field, Chroniton Torpedoes and Tricobalt Mines can significantly disrupt an enemy team when their are enough of them. Doubling their numbers doesn't feel like a good idea.
2.) I'm not too fond of invincibility abilities. Phase Shift sounds a bit overpowered unless there are ways to counter it, like Abalative Armor which can be shockwaved or RSP which can be SNB'd.
Here are my general thoughts regarding carriers:
Pets are hard to balance. There is a very fine line between useless and overpowered, and the fact that a carrier can have drastically differing amounts of pets out (i.e. not the entire pet capacity is released with the first launch) makes things even more difficult.
Therefore: Remove the (combat) pets. Turn the fighters/BoPs/frigates into a click power with a cool animation like the phaser lance. No more need for a sophisticated AI and control scheme. The player chooses the target for every attack run and then the fighters return to the carrier and disappear again at the end of the carrier attack animation.
Animations instead of actual pets could also be an improvement for the MVAM. Instead of two more or less useless pets, you get a super cool animation of three parts swirling around each other, but still acting as one ship from a player control perspective.
I like mancom's suggestion of turning the carrier pets into some kind of weapon/power animation. There could be two variants
a "pet cloud" surrounding the ship and reducing the damage it takes, and inflicting damage to anyone getting within a certain radius, and something that he can send out like a torpedo volley inflicting lots of single target or area damage.
What would also be nice if there was something to put into those Carrier Bays other than pets perhaps? Maybe some kind of side-ways pointing "disruptor spear" or "ion torpedo" weapons. Something that gives the Carrier the damage potential the pets have back, without requiring to use of pets. Turning the Carrier more into a "special weapons platform" rather than only a pet spamfest.
Where's the ambiguity in that?!? KARFI ONLY SCI CONSOLE for crying out loud.
I read that as being Far'Fi only as in that would be where it's included. Didn't occur to me that the more obvious reading is whether it would only work there or not.
I like mancom's suggestion of turning the carrier pets into some kind of weapon/power animation. There could be two variants
a "pet cloud" surrounding the ship and reducing the damage it takes, and inflicting damage to anyone getting within a certain radius, and something that he can send out like a torpedo volley inflicting lots of single target or area damage.
What would also be nice if there was something to put into those Carrier Bays other than pets perhaps? Maybe some kind of side-ways pointing "disruptor spear" or "ion torpedo" weapons. Something that gives the Carrier the damage potential the pets have back, without requiring to use of pets. Turning the Carrier more into a "special weapons platform" rather than only a pet spamfest.
Well I hate the idea and it flies in the face of the entire concept.
Both carriers should be given more precise control over their pets, like CO has.
What about allotting carriers an extra set of DOFF slots for fighter pilots. that could allow for customized roles for the fighters. adding a doff passive that gives fighters a chance to knock out a subsystem, beam enemy crews away, or some other interesting ability could then be slotted by the player, making carriers more versatile and more importantly, customizable.
Right now, fighters die too fast, yet there are, frankly, too many on the screen for performance and targeting purposes. There are some user interface issues that I think are the biggest problem here, but in parallel I think there is some benefit to simply cutting down the sheer number
It has been suggested before that a "Target Player Characters Only" setting could be a good idea.
I haven't flown the kar'fri so i can't say much about it, but agree with mancom that invincibility abilities are no fun without a counter.
Given that i hate spam, pets, and carriers in particular I would like to know what kind of gameplay you want to see for them.
Are pets supposed to be moveable weapon replacement or kill by lag and make me untargetable tool? How much time is acceptable for a Carrier to reach is max dmg potential? What is the intention behind the beefiness of the Vo'quv? If different players need to coordinate attacks to take one down, what about a 5 man carrier team? Is either side going to have an enjoyable experience when encountering them in PvP? So TRIBBLE details, and technical feasibility.... How do you envision them to work?
1) Doesn't matter if people think they fit the IP or not; they're canon. I just bring this up because I do eventually want to see a Federation carrier, and I find the constant barrage of "No carrier for you!" pretty irritating, especially given this factor. I realize that might sound a bit inflammatory - it isn't meant that way however; it's just a simple statement that whether or not we like them, they're canon. (So is Nemesis for that matter. *shrug*)
Hate to burst your bubble, but they're not canon if you use the same definitions for canon that CBS uses.
Hard canon is/are things seen or mentioned on screen in the shows and movies, or specifically designated as canon by CBS (Star Trek: Countdown). No Carriers there, not Fed-side, but not in the KDF either.
Soft canon is/are licensed books, video games, comics, and everything from the Animated Series.
Everything else (fan-fic, fan hypotheses, ship designer intentions [Akira]) is non-canon.
So to put this down clearly: The Akira-as-a-Carrier intention of the Akira-designer, holds no authority. The inclusion of the Akira-as-a-Carrier in other video games holds no authority, the Akira-as-a-Carrier mentioned in the various books, comics, and fan-fics, holds no authority.
Other Federation Carriers (Typhoon), from video games, board games, the Animated Series, or your own feverish imagination, hold no authority.
There is no hard-canon example or reference for Federation Carriers. And to date, CBS has never drawn from soft-canon sources to add to other soft-canon licenses.
Hate to burst your bubble, but they're not canon if you use the same definitions for canon that CBS uses.
Hard canon is/are things seen or mentioned on screen in the shows and movies, or specifically designated as canon by CBS (Star Trek: Countdown). No Carriers there, not Fed-side, but not in the KDF either.
Soft canon is/are licensed books, video games, comics, and everything from the Animated Series.
Everything else (fan-fic, fan hypotheses, ship designer intentions [Akira]) is non-canon.
So to put this down clearly: The Akira-as-a-Carrier intention of the Akira-designer, holds no authority. The inclusion of the Akira-as-a-Carrier in other video games holds no authority, the Akira-as-a-Carrier mentioned in the various books, comics, and fan-fics, holds no authority.
Other Federation Carriers (Typhoon), from video games, board games, the Animated Series, or your own feverish imagination, hold no authority.
There is no hard-canon example or reference for Federation Carriers. And to date, CBS has never drawn from soft-canon sources to add to other soft-canon licenses.
I considered writing something like this but since Heretic asked us to be productive and there is a good chance such an answer could, like we've seen several dozens of times, derail the thread into a flame war.
But this is not the place to discuss "Fed carriers are canon" so I decided to bite my tongue this time.
There is no use in killing a thread about what and how regarding KDF carriers because of the old Fed carrier debate.
So even though I realize I have no authority whatsoever to say so I would like to respectfully suggest you and mistformsquirrel continue this discussion in a seperate thread or via PMs.
I have tried carriers, it lasted all of one trip into an exploration area, and 2 ship to ship fight missions, and I was done.
Carriers are slow and ponderous. As they should be. The problem is all that slowness really gives you no benefit you might be able to take a heck of a beating but you really can't dish one out effectivly. Sure you can spam pets and slow other people's computers to a crawl. But even that's out now with fire at will. I laugh at fighter groups now. So they have lots of armor, but no teeth.
I would suggest reducing the amount of fighters, but making them more agile (harder to hit with FAW) and more effective at damaging stuff, and as others have stated, ditch the subsystem targetting and allow us to use those four ui buttons for pet control,
Maybe: Attack my target, Intercept(Heavy plasma, Tri-cobalt, other fighters, mines), Harass (Minor Jam sensors?, or a "taunt", distracting both PC tactical BOFF/npcs), Engage at will? (Standard AI like we have now)
I donno, if I had more control over my fighters I'd consider using a Carrier again, but as it stands they are too slow at killing npc ships for me to bother.
The only carrier i liked was the Karfi....or however you spell it. but it was weak. Ungodly weak. The Voquev on the other hand. i had issues setting up a weapons build. it was too slow and ponderous for torpedoes lacked punch with phasers though it made up for these glaring flaws by being a veritable tank in space.
I must also say to anyone who claims cruisers are OP'd. Sure the carrier doesnt do much damage and sure it's considered weak...but i was solo chasing a guy in a Voquv....he was not killing me at all even with all his fighters...and I was not killing him either in my so called OP cruiser.
i just think something needs to be looked at with these ships
to some they are weak to others too strong. Honestly...i think weapons on the voquv should be boosted defesne brought down a bit and Karfi defense boosted alot.
Also I agree.... PET BAR IS A MUST. I want to tell my fighters to harrass that taget. or lock them down....would be awesome. and would be nice to train in some rare BO style tactics for your fighters.
Karfi is VERY FINE and do not need a buff. the kerfi pets are the most powerful, so.. well this is just a bad idea... console.. fine, econd hangar bay? NO!!! plzplz -.-
Comments
1. type 1 sits off in cloak, and sends in fighters.. in order to replenish, you need to replicate the parts. having them spawn wave after wave without risk somewhere just adds to the spamming feeling. once the parts are gone, they are gone. you gotta buy more or you are out. maybe other players can stockpile and beam parts over to them as a backup?
i could see a map where you can pick up supplies and take them back to the carrier, kind of a supply run pvp map. might be cool.
2. type 2 has heavy armor, but weak around the engines and forward mount canon. the forward cannon could be a force to be reckoned with. the rest of the ship has weak defenses because all power is supplied to the forward gun.
3. type 3 would be medium armor and has basic weapon capacity from front and back.. but has the capacity to send a barrage of torpedoes or pulse disruptors from a side assault. it has engines that help it maneuver in, port or starboard assault and swoop out.
not a perfect design, but maybe it will provide inspiration somewhere.
The Fighters (Is this also implying Siphon Pods?) - Perhaps the Fighters should be removed from the "Waves" lists and be set to always launch X fighters each bay. Maybe 5 Fighters each Bay for a total Max of 10 Fighters. That would limit the amount of fighters from 5 Carriers to 50 Ships from the currently maximum of 90 Fighters. Not that it bothers me personally, but I do agree at times it can be a handful when there are multiple Carriers on the field of play. Also if the fighters were to be given better survivability that would also help reduce the need to have more of them as well. Perhaps 2 Fighters should be equal to 1 Bird of Prey pet? Then you would only need 12 Fighters to equal 6 Birds of Prey. Which would still limit the amount of Pets on the field from 90 to 60. Either way it would probably still get the desired results, except for those who would still complain about "Spam" when Carriers start to fly around launching Mines as well. :rolleyes:
The Kar'fi - Honestly, I don't know if a "glass carrier" is a good way to go with this ship. For an Aggressive Carrier, it's turn rate is awfully slow. Granted it is better then it was originally, but it's still a very slow ship. And it's survivability suffers because of that turn rate and low speed. And I don't think it's a good Idea to give it basically 10 seconds of what sounds like "You can't hurt me". That is if you actually lose target lock from the Kar'fi for the duration of the power. Now if it was more of an EXTREMLY high defense factor added to the Kar'fi.. Maybe even Max Defense, that might be REALLY nice. And not over powering. It could give it X defense value that while moving at full speed, is near max. (Trait + Aegis set would give it full max). It could still keep the Stealth vs Longer range targets, the ability to pass through things and the like, and it would still thematically be a phase type effect. Or if your not going to use that Idea and you do go with the Power as stated, why not make it so that if some one activates the Subspace Field Modulator, it could actually still hit the Kar'fi, and the Kar'fi could still fire weapons on people who have those powers active? Other wise give the Kar'fi the intrepid-R's turn rate as well as the Phase Shift. At least then it could be more aggressive then it is right now.
I definitely agree with giving the phase shift a speed boost.
Phasing should also be capable of being used offensively. Materializing inside another ship should be very, very bad for them.
It was my distinct impression - especially during the time STO was made, with the timeline videos revealed and such, that the carrier ship configuration was something the Klingon Empire actually took from the Gorn Hegemony (an impression perhaps reinforced for me by the way Gorns played in Starfleet command).
I'm okay with the Vo'Quv being the result of a Klingon Carrier based on reverse engineered Gorn concept... but if the carreirs are to be further explored in the KDF, it's my opinion that the Gorn aesthetic should be what ends up being explored the most.
This thread is about making Carriers worth a damn, not your already awesome feddie ships.
And is still more than capable of being taken down in PvP if you actually know how. this is not a thread for feddies to invade and cry nerf on Carriers. They were already nerfed, and the Kar'Fi is almost useless.
Hmm, there's an idea. How about making it interact with/mimic Ramming Speed somehow to accomplish that effect? It'd basically do the same thing as Ramming Speed (i.e. speed boost + damage both ships.)
I'd be a bit careful about making one ability do too much stuff on its own, or it'll become too prone to turn into an IWIN button on later rebalancings.
That's what testing is for, and the Kar'Fi needs all the help it can get right now. It's not going to be fixed with a single power.
It's not Klingon technology, it's Fek'Ihri technology.
I like the idea a lot. If you succeed, you just launched all available fighters, but if your opponent knows what you're doing (maybe give this power a special effect ans a small amount of warning) then you just got your entire squadron destroyed.
I was going to suggest this, but someone beat me to it. So I'll elaborate a bit. ;-)
The biggest misgiving I have about reducing the number of fighters is that I LIKE the idea of launching a big swarm of fighters (that's the whole purpose of a carrier, right?), as opposed to just launching a few. However, I understand how taxing that is on the system! So why not reduce the number of actual entities being launched, but giving the illusion of having just as many (or hey, even more), by making each entity launched look like a tight GROUP of fighters, instead of just one.
So say we knock each hangar down to 2 waves of 3 entities, but each entity LOOKS like a squadron of (let's say) FOUR fighters, in tight formation. In reality each is a singly, mostly-transparant, entity that has four firing points (which correspond to the four visible parts, each of which look like a fighter). Granted, all four die at the same time, but hey, that's squadron loyalty, right? :-) This gives me the illusion that I'm launching *48* fighters...when really, I'm just launching 12 total entities. Make each entitiy a bit tougher than a single fighter is now, and have it do a bit more damage, to keep the overall DPS roughly what it is now, but visually it looks like we're unleashing a SWARM of fighters, in less time, while in reality we're launching fewer entities to ease the server load.
Win-Win!
:-)
I agree that otherwise the VoQuv is in good shape, though I hate that Sensor Scramble can now confuse fighters, but hey, I can live with that. Would be nice to make them recover a lot faster though, to compensate for the fact that we have no way to wipe it off all of them like we can ourselves.
Not crazy about the Kar'Fi Phase Shift idea, but not terribly opposed to it either.
Just some thoughts on the matter. :-)
Thanks!
Because the Phase Shift causes ships to their lose locks on the ship, Sci ships would lose their Sensor Analysis (or at least I believe it would). Now I can see validity in leaving as such, but I can see that causing allot of hate too.
If there was a way to make it so that you do not lose your Sensor Analysis buff unless you actually lock on to another ship and just wait for the Kar'fi to become targetable again, maybe this would help alleviate this issue from happening.
Now as I have only flown sci ships a few times, which is bad since I have a VA Sci Officer lol, I could be wrong and my so called fix may already be the way things work. If so my whole point here is complete redundant and unnecessary.
Fighters- Need major overhaul. Launch 5 per bay all at once. Reducing max craft but increase HP and Shields. Timer before being able to relaunch based on AUX power, no timer for de-spawn, this is Star Trek each of these craft are mini star ships after all. Return to carrier and protect till ordered to attack again or till aggroed by enemy fire.
Need variations- Different weapons- Ex.ANTIBORG- Antiproton beam array, photon torpedo launcher, Ex. FIREBIRD- plasma beam array, plasma torpedo launcher
Make S'Kul fighter just another variation of weaponry, no kamikaze mode.
Bomber variation- Come with turret instead of array,2x torpedo launcher and Tri-mine launcher, more shields. Various complimentary setups.
BOP- Launch 1 per Bay no timer on De-spawn, Match HP and Shields to 85% maximum T5 captained versions.
Maybe some variation on weaponry load-outs and damage as rarity value increases.
The Kar'fi Frigate just a variation on BOP weaponry.
NEW SMALL CRAFT- Assault Boat- Very Long Recharge timer(5 min) Launches a Heavy Shuttle(BoP Stats) that flies to target and makes a Viral Matrix 3 attack followed by a Boarding Party 3 attack on target, then returns. Single Disruptor Turret, no additional weapons.
Vo'quv- Needs 3 bays gives more variety and allows for use of other than offensive pets.
Kar'fi- Needs parts for more varied appearance. I like the phase cloak idea but.. this needs more.. improve turn rate to same as NeghVar. Give it a second bay and allow it mount standard small craft.
NEW Kar'fi Small Craft- Fleet Bombardment Torpedo- Shielded small craft, fly's to target ship location, carry's two independently targeted Tricobalt Torpedoes to launch point then fires them at nearby ships, other than primary target. Shielded core than becomes equivalent of a Tricobalt mine detonating at primary target. Very Long recharge timer (5 Minutes).
If I could choose a carrier at Lt 1 I'd be over trying out the Klingon side in a flash.
It's a gameplay option that just doesn't exist Fed side and I'd love to try it out. And some of us play for the journey rather than the end, having it as an upper tier ship only means it just gets ignored.
We are actually moving in the direction of tying more of the special abilities for ships to consoles and wherever possible allowing them to be moved to at least some other ships. It is not completely impossible we would make this console able to be put on other ships, though we are really concerned about balance issues with this, so I think it unlikely.
The speed boost is an interesting idea.
I agree with many of the issues you are describing; some are easier to address than others.
We are looking into what it would take to get higher quality/rarity levels for fighters, and to loosen up to some extent what fighters can go on what carriers, though there's still a lot of discussion and there are some technical challenges to this, unfortunately.
The pets disappearing after the allotted time is something we are looking into, because while I understand why it was done, I think it may be doing more harm than good.
This is pulled directly off of Fek'ihiri tech, which the KDF fights against in one of their unique pieces of content.
And don't worry, we're working on lots more toys for both sides.
As I currently have it working internally for testing purposes, it is not on any shared cooldowns, as I felt that would needlessly diminish the flexibility of the ability. It is intended - among other things - to allow you to heal/recover.
Yes, friendlies also cannot target you while this is active; only self abilities will be able to affect the carrier.
Note that while you cannot launch new fighters/frigates for that 10s, existing ones will continue to attack.
We are looking into the possibility of reducing the recharges directly, and it should also be noted that there currently are Flight Deck Officers in the Duty Officer system that will reduce the recharge time of both hangers and Boarding Parties as well, when that system goes live.
I understand the sentiment, and believe me, there are people who agree with you internally. I am deliberately not saying "never" just "not on the current horizon". We feel it is important to keep the factions distinctive in some ways, but the specifics on how that is accomplishable are renegotiable as development on the game evolves.
We've actually been looking at all of these possibilities. What we actually do for the next iteration has not been definitively stated, which is one of the reasons for this thread, and whatever we do decide to do I seriously doubt will be the last iteration in this area.
We are, actually, considering allowing the Kar'fi to carry To'Duj.
Additional tweaks to S'kul fighters are also possible, though I want to see how the FAW change affects things before advocating anything too radical.
If we go down that route, lower tier carriers would probably become available at Commander 1...at least initially.
Something like the Bridge Officer UI expanded to add in 2 more slots for "fighter squadrons". (So you have one control per Bay, and all fighters launched by that bay will listen to that control) could work as UI. Of course, that doesn't make it any easier to implement. Alternative:
The Vo'Quv currently has subsystem targeting. Ditch that, and use those 4 buttons as Pet control instead. Give the Vo'Quv some other buff to make up for losing subsystem targeting. (Maybe Sensors Analysis instead?)
Pet Numbers
Give pets an innate defense bonus similar to how the Escorts have it already, but bigger.
Pet Mainatance
Currently it isn't really worth or possible to try to heal and repair pets. Maybe some powers could have a secondary effect that buffs the pets? Maybe if you pop Emergency Power to Shields, the pets regenerate some shields ,if you activate Auxillary to Integrity Field they get a small hull heal.
The more resistent pets can get, the less you can make do with.
Carrier Maneuverability
Would it be possible to make Carriers slower in speed but better in turn rate? That might be more manageable for players and less annoying. (But maybe it would cause other issues, like the enemies always walking away from the Carrier.)
Pet Damage
I have the impression that the major damage input from pets (and NPCs often) are the torpedoes. Even against shields. Is everything working as intended there? There are some that suggest NPC torpedoes ignore the 75 % kinetic damage resistance of shields.
1. evasion and hide tactics for protection
2. more focus on supporting and fabricating their fighters. building fighters using parts would eliminate the need for spawning them in and out. you call squad 1 back for repair as you send out squad 2. if one is destroyed, assign a replacement based on your arsenal. if your arsenal runs low or out, you have to build the replacements using the said parts. if you run out of fighters AND parts, then you have to unhide and either fight or run. when the fight is over, the question is how do you resupply?
i see a few options:
-when you spawn out of the instance, it automatically resupplies
-when you spawn out of the instance, you get a resupply from some sort of delivery system. maybe receive free from resupply ships and starbases from your faction. any non faction 3rd party suppliers like couriers you have to pay a fee to receive.
3. give them other capabilities, like less fighter bays and more armaments, or less armor for speed, or less speed for extra fighter bays.
as for adding the duty officer system, adding better pilots should yield better results, as in the squad with better pilots, or a lead pilot, will get better evasion (miss chances) than those from lower experience.
1.) A second hangar bay? And I supoose that implies doubling the amount of pets that can be out at any point? Bad idea in my opinion, unless you do some fundamental changes to the karfi frigates. They are the most powerful carrier pets and their use of Aceton Field, Chroniton Torpedoes and Tricobalt Mines can significantly disrupt an enemy team when their are enough of them. Doubling their numbers doesn't feel like a good idea.
2.) I'm not too fond of invincibility abilities. Phase Shift sounds a bit overpowered unless there are ways to counter it, like Abalative Armor which can be shockwaved or RSP which can be SNB'd.
Here are my general thoughts regarding carriers:
Pets are hard to balance. There is a very fine line between useless and overpowered, and the fact that a carrier can have drastically differing amounts of pets out (i.e. not the entire pet capacity is released with the first launch) makes things even more difficult.
Therefore: Remove the (combat) pets. Turn the fighters/BoPs/frigates into a click power with a cool animation like the phaser lance. No more need for a sophisticated AI and control scheme. The player chooses the target for every attack run and then the fighters return to the carrier and disappear again at the end of the carrier attack animation.
Animations instead of actual pets could also be an improvement for the MVAM. Instead of two more or less useless pets, you get a super cool animation of three parts swirling around each other, but still acting as one ship from a player control perspective.
a "pet cloud" surrounding the ship and reducing the damage it takes, and inflicting damage to anyone getting within a certain radius, and something that he can send out like a torpedo volley inflicting lots of single target or area damage.
What would also be nice if there was something to put into those Carrier Bays other than pets perhaps? Maybe some kind of side-ways pointing "disruptor spear" or "ion torpedo" weapons. Something that gives the Carrier the damage potential the pets have back, without requiring to use of pets. Turning the Carrier more into a "special weapons platform" rather than only a pet spamfest.
I read that as being Far'Fi only as in that would be where it's included. Didn't occur to me that the more obvious reading is whether it would only work there or not.
Well I hate the idea and it flies in the face of the entire concept.
Both carriers should be given more precise control over their pets, like CO has.
It has been suggested before that a "Target Player Characters Only" setting could be a good idea.
I haven't flown the kar'fri so i can't say much about it, but agree with mancom that invincibility abilities are no fun without a counter.
Given that i hate spam, pets, and carriers in particular I would like to know what kind of gameplay you want to see for them.
Are pets supposed to be moveable weapon replacement or kill by lag and make me untargetable tool? How much time is acceptable for a Carrier to reach is max dmg potential? What is the intention behind the beefiness of the Vo'quv? If different players need to coordinate attacks to take one down, what about a 5 man carrier team? Is either side going to have an enjoyable experience when encountering them in PvP? So TRIBBLE details, and technical feasibility.... How do you envision them to work?
Hate to burst your bubble, but they're not canon if you use the same definitions for canon that CBS uses.
So to put this down clearly: The Akira-as-a-Carrier intention of the Akira-designer, holds no authority. The inclusion of the Akira-as-a-Carrier in other video games holds no authority, the Akira-as-a-Carrier mentioned in the various books, comics, and fan-fics, holds no authority.
Other Federation Carriers (Typhoon), from video games, board games, the Animated Series, or your own feverish imagination, hold no authority.
There is no hard-canon example or reference for Federation Carriers. And to date, CBS has never drawn from soft-canon sources to add to other soft-canon licenses.
I considered writing something like this but since Heretic asked us to be productive and there is a good chance such an answer could, like we've seen several dozens of times, derail the thread into a flame war.
But this is not the place to discuss "Fed carriers are canon" so I decided to bite my tongue this time.
There is no use in killing a thread about what and how regarding KDF carriers because of the old Fed carrier debate.
So even though I realize I have no authority whatsoever to say so I would like to respectfully suggest you and mistformsquirrel continue this discussion in a seperate thread or via PMs.
Carriers are slow and ponderous. As they should be. The problem is all that slowness really gives you no benefit you might be able to take a heck of a beating but you really can't dish one out effectivly. Sure you can spam pets and slow other people's computers to a crawl. But even that's out now with fire at will. I laugh at fighter groups now. So they have lots of armor, but no teeth.
I would suggest reducing the amount of fighters, but making them more agile (harder to hit with FAW) and more effective at damaging stuff, and as others have stated, ditch the subsystem targetting and allow us to use those four ui buttons for pet control,
Maybe: Attack my target, Intercept(Heavy plasma, Tri-cobalt, other fighters, mines), Harass (Minor Jam sensors?, or a "taunt", distracting both PC tactical BOFF/npcs), Engage at will? (Standard AI like we have now)
I donno, if I had more control over my fighters I'd consider using a Carrier again, but as it stands they are too slow at killing npc ships for me to bother.
I must also say to anyone who claims cruisers are OP'd. Sure the carrier doesnt do much damage and sure it's considered weak...but i was solo chasing a guy in a Voquv....he was not killing me at all even with all his fighters...and I was not killing him either in my so called OP cruiser.
i just think something needs to be looked at with these ships
to some they are weak to others too strong. Honestly...i think weapons on the voquv should be boosted defesne brought down a bit and Karfi defense boosted alot.
Also I agree.... PET BAR IS A MUST. I want to tell my fighters to harrass that taget. or lock them down....would be awesome. and would be nice to train in some rare BO style tactics for your fighters.