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Fleetyard R&D: Carriers
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Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Hey guys,
I will probably be throwing out a few more threads like this over the next month or so as we go through and tweak a bunch of ship issues. Some of things we are working on we aren't ready to talk about yet, but we can certainly start to talk about some of the balance issues.
VERY IMPORTANT: If you don't see us ask specifically about something, please do not assume that we don't care about it or aren't aware of it. There are a number of restrictions to what we can and can't do - the usual suspects like schedule and technical issues (which, for example, is holding up the irritating-as-hell HoT issue with the Enhanced Battle Cloak), but others have to do with other things happening that we can't talk about.
Also, and almost as important, everybody has different opinions on what direction they want to see the game or specific ships go in, and there's no way we can make everyone happy. What we can do is listen to the feedback and balance that with what we can do and what other longer term plans are working under the hood.
With all of that out of the way, let's get on to some things we're thinking about regarding carriers in general and the Kar'fi in particular.
Carriers
Some people love them, some people hate them. Some people think they are reasonable in the IP, some don't. For the forseeable future we do see a role for them to play in the KDF. Similarly, we do not currently have any plans to give carriers to the Federation.
Fighters
I almost titled this "Spam", but my professionalism won out this time (barely). Right now, fighters die too fast, yet there are, frankly, too many on the screen for performance and targeting purposes. There are some user interface issues that I think are the biggest problem here, but in parallel I think there is some benefit to simply cutting down the sheer number of fighters, but making them more effective individually.
Controls
This is being looked into. This is, unfortunately, a very meaty problem that is going to be expensive to address; user interface changes are not cheap. That being said, we are seeing if there are some things we can do to ease things a bit in the mid-term.
Vo'quv
There seems to be a split in opinion as to - after FAW is dealt a swift slap in the face, of course - whether the Vo'quv is fine or not. It is an incredibly beefy ship with a really nice bridge officer seating, and this makes it tough to take down without coordination or tactics. That being said, right now we're leaning towards leaving it alone for the moment, at least until we see the effect the FAW fix and the above-mentioned fighter thinning-out have.
Lower-Tier Carriers
This is currently under consideration.
Kar'fi
The Kar'fi is a bit of a problem child. It has a very aggressive bridge officer seating, but its turn rate is what you would expect from a large carrier. Combined with the lack of a cloak, this makes it relatively fragile. On top of this, although it has four forward weapon slots, this puts it in the awkward position of whether to devote more power to Weapons or more power to Auxiliary.
To this end, we are considering the following changes:
1. Adding a second hanger bay.
2. Adding a Kar-fi-only Science console with a power called Phase Shift based off of the Fek'ihri escort NPC currently in the game. This console would come with the ship. If we do this, existing Kar'fi would be given this console for free.
3. Modifying the fighters (only) to give them increased maneuverability to improve their attempts to kamikaze, since right now they miss far too frequently - which sometimes also leads to AI issues.
Phase Shift
Type: Toggle
Duration: 10 seconds
Cooldown: 180 seconds
Effects:
It would still be able to use other powers (including heals and beams), but this would be intended to provide an emergency reprieve capability to at least partially compensate for the lack of high level Engineering bridge officer slots.
The intent would be for the Kar'fi to be a very aggressive carrier - but definitely a carrier - that is more maneuverable than the Vo'quv, but with less ability to survive serious punishment.
Opinions and feedback are welcome, but please keep it productive.
I will probably be throwing out a few more threads like this over the next month or so as we go through and tweak a bunch of ship issues. Some of things we are working on we aren't ready to talk about yet, but we can certainly start to talk about some of the balance issues.
VERY IMPORTANT: If you don't see us ask specifically about something, please do not assume that we don't care about it or aren't aware of it. There are a number of restrictions to what we can and can't do - the usual suspects like schedule and technical issues (which, for example, is holding up the irritating-as-hell HoT issue with the Enhanced Battle Cloak), but others have to do with other things happening that we can't talk about.
Also, and almost as important, everybody has different opinions on what direction they want to see the game or specific ships go in, and there's no way we can make everyone happy. What we can do is listen to the feedback and balance that with what we can do and what other longer term plans are working under the hood.
With all of that out of the way, let's get on to some things we're thinking about regarding carriers in general and the Kar'fi in particular.
Carriers
Some people love them, some people hate them. Some people think they are reasonable in the IP, some don't. For the forseeable future we do see a role for them to play in the KDF. Similarly, we do not currently have any plans to give carriers to the Federation.
Fighters
I almost titled this "Spam", but my professionalism won out this time (barely). Right now, fighters die too fast, yet there are, frankly, too many on the screen for performance and targeting purposes. There are some user interface issues that I think are the biggest problem here, but in parallel I think there is some benefit to simply cutting down the sheer number of fighters, but making them more effective individually.
Controls
This is being looked into. This is, unfortunately, a very meaty problem that is going to be expensive to address; user interface changes are not cheap. That being said, we are seeing if there are some things we can do to ease things a bit in the mid-term.
Vo'quv
There seems to be a split in opinion as to - after FAW is dealt a swift slap in the face, of course - whether the Vo'quv is fine or not. It is an incredibly beefy ship with a really nice bridge officer seating, and this makes it tough to take down without coordination or tactics. That being said, right now we're leaning towards leaving it alone for the moment, at least until we see the effect the FAW fix and the above-mentioned fighter thinning-out have.
Lower-Tier Carriers
This is currently under consideration.
Kar'fi
The Kar'fi is a bit of a problem child. It has a very aggressive bridge officer seating, but its turn rate is what you would expect from a large carrier. Combined with the lack of a cloak, this makes it relatively fragile. On top of this, although it has four forward weapon slots, this puts it in the awkward position of whether to devote more power to Weapons or more power to Auxiliary.
To this end, we are considering the following changes:
1. Adding a second hanger bay.
2. Adding a Kar-fi-only Science console with a power called Phase Shift based off of the Fek'ihri escort NPC currently in the game. This console would come with the ship. If we do this, existing Kar'fi would be given this console for free.
3. Modifying the fighters (only) to give them increased maneuverability to improve their attempts to kamikaze, since right now they miss far too frequently - which sometimes also leads to AI issues.
Phase Shift
Type: Toggle
Duration: 10 seconds
Cooldown: 180 seconds
Effects:
- Becomes untargetable (you actually lose targeting lock on it)
- Gains stealth against ships roughly outside of normal combat range
- Can move freely through other ships
- Cannot launch fighters or frigates
- Cannot use torpedos or mines
It would still be able to use other powers (including heals and beams), but this would be intended to provide an emergency reprieve capability to at least partially compensate for the lack of high level Engineering bridge officer slots.
The intent would be for the Kar'fi to be a very aggressive carrier - but definitely a carrier - that is more maneuverable than the Vo'quv, but with less ability to survive serious punishment.
Opinions and feedback are welcome, but please keep it productive.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Will the Kar'fi get an extra sci slot to hold the console? Will the console work in other ships?
If so, I'm wondering about combining it with cloak on Klingon ships.
It seems that this phase shift would address some of the heal issues with the enhanced cloak, although on a limited time basis. Kind of a reverse enhanced cloak (can fire phasers while cloaked, but not torpedoes).
It looks like he did read the post. I think there is some ambiguity that he would like cleared up.
It says Kar'fi only console so I would assume it would not work on other ships, it probably would take up an existing sci slot.
Decreasing the amount of spam, while making each little npc a little tougher or dps increase could be good. A lot of testing to get that right though.
I love the idea of making the phase cloak a console. I don't know about having it on any ship. But a future Fek'ihri ship or ships that could use this would be worth having the carrier, or vise versa.
Heretic mentions "Kar-fi only" Sci console in the OP. So I am thinking it will not be useful for any other vessel.
The fact that it is a console, makes it a little limited in usefulness. I do understand the drive to make special ship powers tied to consoles instead of the ship itself, but in this case it almost makes more sense to tie the ability to the Kar-fi since it is not (apparently) going to be useful to any other vessel.
That said, with four Sci-console slots on the Kar-fi, giving one up for the sake of a special ability might be a step towards keeping balance. Still, it is pretty restrictive considering that the Phase Shift only lasts 10 seconds and you cannot do the one thing carriers do, which is launch fighters.
Perhaps add a speed boost in as well? It seems like the main perpose of the Phase Shift is to give the Captain a last-ditch chance to escape from combat long enough to heal and regroup a bit. Being able to pass through ships could be useful in that regard as a Captain need not waste time trying to turn the Carrier.
I suppose a good (effective) Captain could get out of combat range in 10 seconds thus effectively "Cloaking" briefly, but I imagine that even if not targetable, most Escorts could easily keep up and at least have eyes (if not a sensor lock) on the target for 10 seconds and renew the bombardment pretty quickly. Which is where the idea of giving the Carrier a speed boost comes in.
Being able to actually get out of combat (and combat range) quickly, so that the stealth bonus would be effective, would be pretty handy.
I don't know, personally I do not PvP much so I do not know how that would all work out in the hands of skilled players. I will definitely be curious to see where this all goes though.
maj!
The Vo'quv is the perfect ship. It is one of the few ships that don't cloak and it is the biggest thing on the screen. They need all that HP's to survive all the agro.
The issue is really
1) There is no way to make your pets more powerful if you want to
2) Why can't it use the Kar'fi pets? It doesn't make sence
I would make pets
1) An DPS/no def pet (single togu fighter that is faster and has dps) Basically if it is slow it is dead.
2) An Agro/def pet ( single BOP with sci skills but does little damage)
The Kar'fi is difficult but fun to fly. Basically, all your bo slots have to be defensice AND you need the Aegis set and all your consoles have to be defensiove.
And yes, i realize that you know it is hard to control the pets and the solution is hard but when you have 6 BOP's out and you don't know it, and release another BOP, and it kills the BOP that was right beside you in the first place, isn't fun.
Also, having all your pets disapear after an alloted time isn't fun as well.
Personally, i think they should be engineering since SOMEONE has to be fixing these things.
I had an idea for an engineering carrier that I have mentioned a few times. Like a massive chariot, and just as many HP's and turning as a Voquv.
3 bay carrier. Each bay only can only have two deployed at any time, and the redeploy is twice as long as the Voquv.
Also, has LC engineering slots instead of Sci
If the 'Phase Shift' ability gets added to the game, then the Oberth Class Science Vessel, should be given a higher (not max) level tier (USS Pegasus) which adds the Phase Shift/Cloak. Perhaps as a Tier 3/4 "Combat" alternative to the Olympic/Intrepid ?
Or just making the 'Phase Shift' ability as a Universal Console, able to be used on any ship?
I forgot some of those points. But ya and i also hate the fact pets (to'duj/BoP's) will return to you after leaving "Red Alert." I hate that i want to be able to have them out as "an escort waiting to do my bidding" and only command them to return when i want.
If a person can use saucer seperation or MVAM to prepare to enter a battle i should be able to to launch the max number of fighter ahead of time
hmmm, typically you won't see all the fighters always launched indefinitely due to limited resources like fuel and such based on real world examples. I can think of a few options as alternatives
1) allow full launch but delay the landing for two to five minutes if you don't enter combat. This is analogous to an engineer laying down his generators and turrets before drawing enemies into combat. Not exactly the same since you fighters aren't stationary, but you probably get the point.
2) allow for a limited size always up CAP that can be launched always to protect the carrier and allow you to launch the rest of the fighters when you enter combat.
So overall i think a faster ship would be most welcome. I would say somewhere around the recon sci vessel (the damage sci ship for Feds) for turning and a notch up in speed. Can kind of kill two birds with one stone where it can actually be used as a "sci" ship as well, as klings currently only have 1. It would have a tradeoff with the damage department though due to all the tactical Boffs.
The phase shift would compliment this as well, though i dont think it is necessary. If the phase shift is implemented, make sure it cannot be taken off the karfi, that would be horribly overpowered on something like a bird of prey.
I dont think it needs much more (other than AI fixes). Speed in itself is a defense and can be the difference between being completely neglected and actually being utilized (see varanus before and after speed patch). I really dont think it needs a second hanger, as there are already too many things on the battlefield as is (also I would consider looking into photonic fleets being a single ship if youre looking to reduce spam, they are some of the worst spam to be honest).
Same thing goes with the Voquv. Yes the shields were nerfed, but thats a problem because it cant turn or move. Its defense is so low and the shield facings so wide, its so easy to tail it in an escort and knock down one shield facing. With a proper team the Voquv is one of the easiest ships to kill. Maybe bump it up to be equal to a cruiser in speed and turn (since it now has cruiser shields)?
Oh well!
Also you do say when active we are untargetable, but does this include friendlies. If not that could make this overpowered, given they COULD have the high level heals.
If fighters are going to be reduced in number, then there should definitly be some thought given to (as suggested above) "utility" fighters that do other things rather than just attack.
Maybe it's time to finally start implementing slottable fighters with quality ratings? I'd also like some way to alter the damage types of the fighters (I am almost obsessive about these things-I can't have my carrier firing tetryon weapons if the fighters are using disruptors!) I realise both those things are relatively long term, though.
On the whole, though, I like the Vo'Quv a lot as it stands. Coming from a background in flying cruisers Fed-side, the transition to a big, heavy ship isn't that major. (I haven't tried out the Kar'Fi yet-probably sometime this week, though.)
So we both missed it in our initial reads. Its not that big a deal.
This would solve the problem of a long ramp up, and it is easily defended against, because Gravity Well the carrier, or send in some powerful torpedoes and all the fighters etc that were just launched would die.
Thoughts?
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=221564
-Keppoch
A few points here:
1) Doesn't matter if people think they fit the IP or not; they're canon. I just bring this up because I do eventually want to see a Federation carrier, and I find the constant barrage of "No carrier for you!" pretty irritating, especially given this factor. I realize that might sound a bit inflammatory - it isn't meant that way however; it's just a simple statement that whether or not we like them, they're canon. (So is Nemesis for that matter. *shrug*)
2) That said, it's better to get things figured out before trying to add them to another faction; so it's best for now to not rock the boat to heavily in that respect. Make them work well first.
Fighters
I actually really like fighters as they are, with the singular caveat that they shouldn't be as badly affected by warp core breaches as they are - it's too easy for them to kill a ship then themselves be destroyed. Likewise they can chain-react and destroy each other in a rather impressive string.
That said I understand that on a technical level, there are reasons why fighter numbers may need to be reduced. *sigh* I don't want to see it happen but I figure it's going to no matter what I say, so I may as well offer a solution I personally find reasonable.
Instead of 3 flights of 3 fighters per hangar bay, why not 2 flights of 3? 12 fighters is still enough to feel like you have a squadron out there... but it's 6 less craft to deal with.
As for making them tougher, I'd prefer to see some kind of evasion bonus for them rather than them simply having more HP... the primary advantage a small ship has in most sci-fi (including Trek), is the whole 'not getting hit' thing. They should, however, explode spectacularly if given a solid smack by a larger ship. The warp core thing could perhaps be solved by given them some resistance to that one particular type of damage. Well that or better AI... I'm all for better AI.
Controls
Control-wise: I really would like to each each wing (that is, each singular group launched from the bays), as a controllable entity, siimlar to our Boffs. If we use the 12-ship 3-per-flight model, then the Boff interface actually works perfectly as a starting point even.
At a dead minimum we need an Attack button and a Guard Carrier button (they get into formation with you and only fight stuff that attacks you.)
Vo'quv
Please don't hurt my baby. *hugs Vo'Quv*
Lower-Tier Carriers
I'm definitely glad to hear this is under consideration. After piloting a carrier for some time now, I can honestly say flying a Battlecruiser on the way up quite simply does not give one the necessary feel for how a carrier plays. So you get to T5 and suddenly the game changes on you - you're moving way more slowly than you ever have before, you're down to 6 guns from 7, and you have to manage your fighters (who are, at present, not exactly intuitive).
That said, as I said in regard to a Fed carrier: This should probably wait until we get a stable situation at T5. The goal of lower tier carriers would be to teach younger captains the ropes - if the ropes drastically change position after the fact then that doesn't do them much good.
Kar'fi
I don't like the toggle console idea myself. That's more of a bandage over the Kar'Fi's problems. I also think one of the Kar'Fi's problems is it's fighter complement. The S'kul fighters... just aren't very good imo. While no fighter tends to survive for a long time, at least the To'Duj don't ram themselves into the enemy.*
All told, the first thing I'd do would be to make a non-ramming S'kul variant or allow Kar'Fi to carry To'Duj.
Adding a second hangar would also be wonderful. I'll have to think more on the Kar'Fi though, I've been so disappointed with it that I've kind of put it out of my mind for a long time. I do remember that my biggest problem was the S'kuls though.
*I'll add that this is especially baffling given that it's presumed your pilots are Klingons and allied races, not Fekhri - while I'm sure a Klingon would be happy to die gloriously by ramming if the situation required; the S'kuls are basically piloted missiles. It feels weird and wrong.
I don't know how that would affect other game play elements like capturing a node, or looting..If the issue with the ship is how fragile it is, maybe instead of adding an immunity mechanic to the game it might be wiser to give it more of a teleport type effect, like it opens one of those red portals and appears farther away.
at least that way it might still be targetable and killable.