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Flat Question: Why is development so tied to the C-Store?
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Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
In Stahl's latest Ask Cryptic, he said that things like costume art REQUIRE C-Store money to produce.
I'm really okay about a C-Store, even one with functional items -- particularly in a Free to Play model, but I do feel like lifetimes and monthly subscriptions should be paying for more improvements than what they have been and I feel like the game, to be worth $15 a month, needs a bigger dev team.
This is the kind of thing I look at when I look at getting more into Champions or whether I'll pick up Neverwinter:
I feel like not enough is reinvested into your games. Now, after awhile, you may have a subscriber shortage but that subscriber shortage exists because there's not enough initial and ongoing support in your products.
I actually had no problem buying the TOS bridge pack because I saw it as quality work; I like to support quality work.
But I really feel like lifetime purchases really should have covered your development costs for one person for four years, assuming it was handled like subscription money sold at a close-to-cost margin. And the same with subscribers, who I don't think get a fair market $15.
At the end of the day, I want a C-Store with a narrowly defined role in terms of what it sells and more development. And I want that on a Cryptic product because I like the flavor of the work Cryptic does.
But I wish I could figure out how to get:
- a Cryptic product
- with a different business plan than STO or CO, with an ironclad set of principles behind what is sold
- more content that is included in a base fee
- features polished when they go live
I want all four of these things. I would have paid $20 a month for STO and $100 for the retail box or more for my LTS if I could have had that.
I buy some things just to show a bit of support and I just feel like the money winds up in a black hole because it's not changing the way things operate. It just feels like their should be a pay off point where monthly subscriptions and money from LTS (which should have been treated as prorated, low or no profit sub money and not development debt recoupment, if that's what happened) do more than what they're doing. And all I would like to know is how to make that happen.
I'm not interested in a "That's Cryptic" snarkfest. I'm not interested in "That's not likely." I would really like to know what it would take; I had always assumed Atari's debt was a black hole but it feels like business isn't changing with the other things in transition and that makes it feel like Jack or Dan have been disingenuous if they're not answering to Atari suits for the longterm anymore and we're looking at in-game lotteries and sales for things that devs have previously hinted were included in existing purchases.
I think every dollar not reinvested in their games at this point will cost them $10 in a twelve months. I think that's already been happening. I think it only continues to grow as a problem.
That's my $.02 on this business of needing C-Store to develop art assets at all for the monthly game, limited dev team sizes, etc.
I'm really okay about a C-Store, even one with functional items -- particularly in a Free to Play model, but I do feel like lifetimes and monthly subscriptions should be paying for more improvements than what they have been and I feel like the game, to be worth $15 a month, needs a bigger dev team.
This is the kind of thing I look at when I look at getting more into Champions or whether I'll pick up Neverwinter:
I feel like not enough is reinvested into your games. Now, after awhile, you may have a subscriber shortage but that subscriber shortage exists because there's not enough initial and ongoing support in your products.
I actually had no problem buying the TOS bridge pack because I saw it as quality work; I like to support quality work.
But I really feel like lifetime purchases really should have covered your development costs for one person for four years, assuming it was handled like subscription money sold at a close-to-cost margin. And the same with subscribers, who I don't think get a fair market $15.
At the end of the day, I want a C-Store with a narrowly defined role in terms of what it sells and more development. And I want that on a Cryptic product because I like the flavor of the work Cryptic does.
But I wish I could figure out how to get:
- a Cryptic product
- with a different business plan than STO or CO, with an ironclad set of principles behind what is sold
- more content that is included in a base fee
- features polished when they go live
I want all four of these things. I would have paid $20 a month for STO and $100 for the retail box or more for my LTS if I could have had that.
I buy some things just to show a bit of support and I just feel like the money winds up in a black hole because it's not changing the way things operate. It just feels like their should be a pay off point where monthly subscriptions and money from LTS (which should have been treated as prorated, low or no profit sub money and not development debt recoupment, if that's what happened) do more than what they're doing. And all I would like to know is how to make that happen.
I'm not interested in a "That's Cryptic" snarkfest. I'm not interested in "That's not likely." I would really like to know what it would take; I had always assumed Atari's debt was a black hole but it feels like business isn't changing with the other things in transition and that makes it feel like Jack or Dan have been disingenuous if they're not answering to Atari suits for the longterm anymore and we're looking at in-game lotteries and sales for things that devs have previously hinted were included in existing purchases.
I think every dollar not reinvested in their games at this point will cost them $10 in a twelve months. I think that's already been happening. I think it only continues to grow as a problem.
That's my $.02 on this business of needing C-Store to develop art assets at all for the monthly game, limited dev team sizes, etc.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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If you want to give support outside of C-Store then buy 1-2 boxes and start to sub. This way you can send them $30/month.
That's silly. It doesn't add any value to my main account and it doesn't affirm any move towards shift in business plans, particularly since I'd rather the game go FTP at this point.
Here here :cool:
I'd love to see the TNG-era interiors done to the same level of quality (and scale)
Now it seems that even stuff that IS developed for a specific purpose requires c-store funding.
Strange change of reasoning imo.
They've stated many times - they don't have the staff to develop everything everyone wants in a quick timeframe; so extra fluff (like costumes; or extra ship skins) they 'outsource' <--- And this pays for itself and generates another profit stream via the C-Store.
I also think it's interesting that anytjime they release a new item to the C-Store; suddenly we get playwers posting - "Wow, everything comes from the C-Store." which has HARDLY been the case.
- Sector Space Revamp (a lot of art assests were created for this) <--- Not C-Store
- ESD Revamp <--- Not C-Store
- Foundry assests <--- Not C-Store
- FE Series and Remastered episodes (that contain new tech and art assests) <--- Not C-Store
Season 4:
- Ground Combat Revamp (with updated art, weapons, etc.) <--- Not C-Store
- Q'Nos Firdt City Revamp <--- Not C-Store
- Doff System ( 'DOFF Packs' are going into the C-Store as a convienence; but everything that is a part of the Doff system can be obtained in game; and it is not required that you purchase these packs; but they're there if you feel like obtaining DOFFs without 'grinding'.)
Again, I get it, you don't like the C-Store (and I don't care for it much either); but it's our choice if we decide to make use of it; and it was stated that anything in the C-Store that had a mesuarable advantage or effect on Gameplay would also be attainable in game via in game means. Oncfe they made the C-Store ships available via Marks/Emblems; that finally became a true statement. The only other items in the C-Store are vanity items; and honestly, I on't have an issue with that.
My take - If you don't like the C-Store, don't use it. There's really nothing there that's required, or an instant "I Win' button in PvP or PvE. Voting with your wallet (and not using it) is the only way to send a clear message that the suits will acknowledge.
But again, for anyone infering EVERYTHHING in the game goes to, or comes from the C-Store (and I'm not saying this was implied by the OP - but I'd have to say anytime anything new comes into the C-Store we see threads by players stating such is the case); that's just not true.
Again, if it rubs you trhe wrong way - avoid it. If it REALLY rubs you the wrong way; and you're a monthly subber; the ONLY message a bean counter will acknowledge is a subscription cancellation, with the reason being - "I don't like that there's a seperate cash shop."
Anything less is a waste of feedback, as the C-Store is not controlled (nor are any business decisions for it) made by the STO Dev team - the C-Store decisions are made by the corporate suits and marketing dept. Yes, I'm sure the moderators and perhaps even the Devs pass some of teh Forum frrdback "up the chain"; but in the end; all the suits look at is the bottom line numbers. If stuff is selling and players are buying; you won't see a change. Now, the only time the Devs might be involved is when te suits say - "Hey, based on C-Store performance, you have X budget to outsources and create a new C-Store item for STO. What do you guys want to add?"
The onlt other interaction is DStahl lobbying to make sure as many items as possible have an in game way of being obtained - but in the end; it's the suits and marketing that say 'yea or nay' and agree to the in game method if they allow that for an item. If they tell DStahl, 'No' - the only thing he can do is report that decision to te playerbase (and keep lopbbying if he feels it's still worth it to do so.)
cool story bro. maybe cryptic will "outsource" some bug fixes while they are at it.
ADOPT A BUG! - 500 CP/AT whatever
Tired of the insta gibbing mobs? By buying this item, you help us to pay the overtime of a fellow coder to nail this bug for good.
Team size is not an excuse. They knew their team size and human resources very well when they agreed to produce a complete MMO in 2 years.
What do you mean "outsource" c-store development? Someone else works on C-Store stuff?
No there weren't. One particle system was added (coding), the growing suns were added (coding), some UI changes (coding), about 70 textures were replaced with completely blank textures and the lighting was changed in 2 dozen shoeboxes.
Granted. But on a sidenote, why did they make that hideous starbase to begin with? I guess it took way longer to make than mushroom station.
They already existed in the system devs just tagged them foundry ready.
Granted. Thou I have a slight problem with remasters. They just take devtime without adding anything really new to the game. Polishing the chrome doesn't help you when the tank is almost empty.
We have no real idea about that so everything there is a big fat assumption.
How long it takes to grind 500 emblems? Maybe 50 hours or so? So you have $15 or one side. Then you have 50 hours on the other. How much does your time worth? If 15$/50hours = 0.3 $ hourly "wage" sounds good business then sure you can obtain some stuff in game.
I agree to a point that to much goes into the C-Store and LTS and monthly fees should be funding most of in game improvement and costumes, Those people who had the Connie should of had access to he bridge pack. Those who purchased it should of had the opportunity to get the ship in the bundle price. That is called business ethics in my book.
My opinion is that STO started out slow without many things that should of been included at launch. I feel it is unethical to charge for some (not all) things down the road, because the feature was not ready at launch. Many items should be included just for the sake of keeping the community happy and involved.
The C-store I understand its value, but feel that it needs to be a down played to the extent that is currently at, and feel a F2P model would not be the answer it would be a form of bait and switch for a loyal subscriber base that has taken the lumps along the way. It would devalue an investment of a LTS or Monthly subscription, put us on a slide in which the the C-Store would be the emphasis and not the option.
Thank you.
My big thing is, they could have redefined "complete" relative to their teamsize.
Many MMOs are launching with the same or less content than STO but they're also launched with fewer levels, fewer features in place of placeholder features, etc.
I'm reminded of a Runic interview about Torchlight where they explain that they resisted adding superfluous features or even staple features they didn't think they could do justice to with their teamsize, focusing on being the best at what they do and kicking any features they can't be the best at to the curb or making it part of a separate product.
If that meant making additional factions monster play or more of a Death Knight/hero class setup, starting at endgame, Cryptic should have just done that.
I really do believe in designing the game around what you can do well rather than having a lofty design goal and flailing about wildly in pursuit of it.
Another poster commented that costumes did indeed require c-store funding due to the outsourcing done... but I never heard of any outsourcing done with Cryptic. Plus I've seen pictures on the tweet feed of practicially every well known developer working on the creation of MVAM, prometheus, bridge packs, etc.
Dshtal even answered a question regarding putting costumes, etc as obtainable in game. His answer: as long as it is financially feasible to do so. I am not sure what that means... if the game goes FTP, then it is no longer financially feasible to do so.
Also, Dshtal mentioned putting some Boffs in the c-store BECAUSE players asked for those items. If memory serves me, most of what players have asekd for have landed in the C-store.
I don't care at this point anymore... its obvious they are in bed with the idea of FTP... they just haven't considered a formal marriage to it yet. Heck, the only thing the website, launcher, and marketing team know how to market besides FE episodes are new C-store items.
Since I'm the poster in Question, I suppose it would be good if I listed my source:
Link to Source (link)
Thank you for the source. I find that interesting. I am now wondering what the rationale is behind paying a third party to make items in the c-store if c-store profit goes back to the third party anyway. I don't see how Cryptic would deem it worthwhile if they have to split c-store profits between a third party and themselves.
I suspec t the advantage is that they get the assets into the game without having the labor budget to develop it.
I just don't get why they don't get the labor budget to develop more because that's pretty clearly costing them subscribers.
That's really hard to understand. Some specific examples would make that a lot clearer to everyone.
What was the decision to put that little piece of RMT into your MMOs as well?
"Just that you kinda plan out a budget for a game and then revenue right? And you want to give players as much as you possibly can... And there is only so much money that just subscriptions bring in.
Now not everybody is going to spend money on microtransactions except for the people who want those things right? But then that money can be put back in the game for a whole variety of different things. So, from our perspective it's simply so that we can have a larger development team than the revenue would otherwise justify.
But from the point of view of the players, it's like "Well Jesus, just give us this stuff, you're cheatin us!" And it's like no, honestly all I am trying to do is give you the most I possibly can and still be financially responsible."
- Jack Emmert
And....
What I want to know is why they can't have 25 staff without relying on the C-Store and then use that for extra revenue. On one hand, my guesstimate is that they'd need 225,000 players. On the flipside, I think they've probably sold more than enough boxed copies to have that many players, even after losses, and the C-Store coupled with design philosophy issues is a big reason why they don't and why they're so reliant on the C-Store.
In short, I'm saying I think excessive C-Store reliance is a vicious cycle. It drives away players and with fewer players, the game is more C-Store reliant. It seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
self full-filling prophecy indeed. If they aren' t getting enough revenues from subs, then they need the c-store. If the c-store is hurting sub numbers, then they still need the c-store because sub numbers are low. They can't survive without the c-store because they never tried surviving without it.
I am not against the c-store, just their excessive reliance on it. So which is it? Does the c-store exist in order to get things we want in game or because they need the revenues? If they pay to outsource c-store content, how is that bringing in revenue? If it is to bring stuff in game without using the labor budget, then I might understand the rationale. However, if it is hurting how STO is perceived, then isn't it clear that the current policy with the c-store is not working? Don't get rid of the c-store, just examine what needs to be changed regarding it to remedy the negative perception towards it.
Ya know they could just outsource it in company to another dept... but in the event they outsource it to other companies odds are they pay upfront for it, then just assume the c-store purchases will cover it.
Considering Micro-transactions are popping up in almost all mmo's now a days i dunno why people would/are still shocked it's in STO/CO... but guess I'll never understand that (this includes pay to play mmo's not f2p)
but hey, it frees up the dev team to make free content so \o/