"They invade our space, and we fall back. They [attack] countless worlds, and we fall back. Not again. Not this time. The line must be drawn here! This far, no farther! And I will make them pay for what they have done!"
I vote for more open war, with PvP flagging options outside PvP specific instances.
To spice it up, combine Fed and KDF for STF's but allow "friendly fire" you have to work together for the common goal, but if things get too heated, the mission is compromised and you blow the heck out of each other. I'm all for chaos.
Recognizing that the Empire is nothing but a gaggle of swirling gnats, the Federation ends it's active hunt to maintain boarders. The cost to patrol vast pieces of space against an otherwise ineffectual enemy simply doesn't bear out. So they instruct their captians to be vigiliant but know that there's no reason to be alarmed. The once mighty empire is but a group of fangless P'taks.
It's not so much a peace that's negotiated, it's an acknowledgement that it's a waste of time to hunt them any further. Let them fly through space and toast each other's honor. Even our transports and civil defense are enough to keep them from any real harm.
And the KDF knows it. They won't start a fight becuase they know, deep down, they'll lose. In stead they posture for the honor, they count coup by tagging vessels, but they're not soo foolish as to start a scrap that will only lead to needless death.
You're joking, right?
The Klingon Empire is more powerful than it's ever been before, and the Federation is at its weakest in centuries, fighting multiple wars and conflicts on multiple fronts. The Federation is spread too thin and it's in real danger of collapsing.
I disagree. In fact, I disagree so strongly that I desire the exact opposite occurrence.
I want the War to flare up.
I want Klingon Space to grow, extending into both Psi Velorum and Alpha Trianguli.
I want the KDF to get new repeatable (like the Pi Canis Sorties) where they invade key Federation locales (K7, perhaps a member world we've heard of but never seen, like Bolia, Sauria, Rigel, or Caitan).
And if you're a Klingon - you'll be getting full access to every sector in the game sometime during Season 4. As we do you'll get more and more access to patrols, DSE, Fleet Actions and new content events we have planned as well. Not to mention you'll need to keep the Borg from assimilating the Gorn. That should keep you pretty busy.
And hope full Alpha Quadrant Access means a whole slew of PvP invasion/defense missions as well as PvE missions on both sides.
I disagree. In fact, I disagree so strongly that I desire the exact opposite occurrence.
I want the War to flare up.
I want Klingon Space to grow, extending into both Psi Velorum and Alpha Trianguli.
I want a real shooting WAR!
And if wishes were unicorns.....
I'm looking at this from a gameplay perspective, honestly, more than a lore one. If both sides had launched with full PVE content, and robust PVP and lots of ship and player options, then I'd be all about having two seperate games with some cross over here and there.
But it didn't. Not even close.
Sidebar: This is NOT NOT NOT a Fed Carrier argument.
But the more we talked about Fed Carriers the more certain points came up:
A) There's not enough Klingon PVE content.
There's not enough people playing Klingon in general.
Those were two huge points that people kept banging away at as to why Carriers ~had~ to remain Klingon only. Now, let's set the carriers over there and look at those two points in a vacuum.
Is there enough Klingon PVE Content? Are there enough people playing Klingon?
Bottom line, we're talking over a month before we see the next featured episode. We're unlikely to get the new tutorials. When does anyone ~realistically~ think we're going to see nearly enough content KDF side to compare to what the Fed had launch? When will there be enough ships for KDF players to feel like "yeah, we got some variety over here now"?
Nothing against the developers but the rate of content release isn't supportive of that happening this year, or even in 2012. Which means maybe it's time to look to compromises. Maybe it's time to look at all those "fed only" mission arcs and open some up to the Kilngons. And the ONLY way that works, lore-wise, is for there to be some kind of truce.
The Lore is cracked enough by letting people fly around willy nilly through space when there's an ACTIVE SHOOTING WAR going on. If I see any KDF player on my Fed captain, anywhere in space I should be able engage them like any other ship of war.
If it makes you feel any better, by the time you reach Gamma Orionis in the plot progression, there's sort of an unspoken ceasefire between the sides in the face of the larger, more dangerous enemy(ies).
I see the Fed/KDF conflict as more as a hot cold war. I would like to see in Gamma and Orellius blocks, the two sides could team. After all, even the US and Russia fought together against the Axis in WW2 even though they were not the best of friends. Then, once the KDF got finished out, ramp up the war!
I enjoy having Klingons as enemies. I think they have more value as Fed antagonists than Fed allies.
I agree they lack content, but I'd rather see that addressed and improved than brushed aside and nulled by a merger with the KDF becoming allied to the Federation again.
I enjoy having Klingons as enemies. I think they have more value as Fed antagonists than Fed allies.
I agree they lack content, but I'd rather see that addressed and improved than brushed aside and nulled by a merger with the KDF becoming allied to the Federation again.
I think peace is the way to go the story has demonstrated that other players created the conflict. Besides I've never heard of "okay we are at war except in this one sector because the borg could take us both down.." sorry thats just so counter productive. Its the friggin Borg both sides should get over it and focus on them..
I'd just like to see Fed and KDF able to team up in all the Borg/Undine missions, or even just the Task Forces. That would make it much easier for KDF to get into a TF team for one thing.
What will and what I hope happens will it will revert to the way it was in TOS before Orgainan peace treaty. Ie Klingons and Feds basicly go where ever they want...and if you catch someone out of comunications range and alone...hohoho But no formal declaration.
In looking at the current situation, I see several possiblities. Anyone who's reached Gamma by now knows of the unspoken ceasefire between the Feds & KDF, & know who the real threat is. No matter what any of us want (war or peace), the conflict between the Feds & KDF needs to continue. I'd like to list a few points regarding the current & future conflict:
1) Feds won't apologize for making the mistake of not backing the KDF when they should. And the KDF are notorious for holding grudges.
2) There has YET to be a climax in the Feds & KDF conflict. We need something major to occur, along with a sort of major "revelation" in the game, before the Feds & KDF begin peace talks again.
3) There is still the Romulan angle to consider ........
4) As well as the Cardassians & possibly the Dominion ........
5) The KDF & Undine will NEVER get along, & Feds are going to want to inform the Undine somehow they were tricked into starting everything.
6) The Borg are going to be a bigger pain in the neck real soon.
7) The Iconians (need I say more?) ...................
The war needs to continue for storyline purposes. It will have to end eventually to continue on to the ultimate antagonist of STO, but alot is unsettleed between the Feds & KDF right now.
With that said .............. Surrender is not in my vocabulary. I will continue to kill Klinks for their bloodwine until the war is won
In looking at the current situation, I see several possiblities. Anyone who's reached Gamma by now knows of the unspoken ceasefire between the Feds & KDF, & know who the real threat is. No matter what any of us want (war or peace), the conflict between the Feds & KDF needs to continue. I'd like to list a few points regarding the current & future conflict:
1) Feds won't apologize for making the mistake of not backing the KDF when they should. And the KDF are notorious for holding grudges.
2) There has YET to be a climax in the Feds & KDF conflict. We need something major to occur, along with a sort of major "revelation" in the game, before the Feds & KDF begin peace talks again.
3) There is still the Romulan angle to consider ........
4) As well as the Cardassians & possibly the Dominion ........
5) The KDF & Undine will NEVER get along, & Feds are going to want to inform the Undine somehow they were tricked into starting everything.
6) The Borg are going to be a bigger pain in the neck real soon.
7) The Iconians (need I say more?) ...................
The war needs to continue for storyline purposes. It will have to end eventually to continue on to the ultimate antagonist of STO, but alot is unsettleed between the Feds & KDF right now.
With that said .............. Surrender is not in my vocabulary. I will continue to kill Klinks for their bloodwine until the war is won
^QFT^
The only way the war will end is the KDF proceeds to kick the Undine's collective extra-dimensional rears, then take their several pounds of flesh from both the Feds & the Romulans.
By "several pounds of flesh" I mean taking over large swaths of what is now, and has been historically, Federation and Romulan space (likely both Pi Canis & Psi Velorum, as well as the bottom half of Regulus, at last).
The Borg are the wild card. All of the other races negotiate and at least attempt to understand what is going on. The Borg just expand and assimilate.
The KDF will only make peace if they face a mortal threat like a renewed (evolved) Borg or Iconians. The Feds will make peace with a ham sandwich so that really doesn't need a plot driver.
Really the Feds just want peace so K v F PVP matches hurt less.
The Klingon Empire is more powerful than it's ever been before, and the Federation is at its weakest in centuries, fighting multiple wars and conflicts on multiple fronts. The Federation is spread too thin and it's in real danger of collapsing.
And we all know this is where the federation Shines its brightest. at its darkest hour it always pull through.
The journey to level 51 takes you through a story... the path from Ensign to Vice Admiral is supposed to happen over many many years. Which is why KA is a good time travel mission.
Yes while you are lieutenant the story is the war with the Klingons.
By the time you've reached level 50 the Fed and Klingons are working together again, so the war is lessening due to a greater threat. The Borg.
What we should see with the progression of the Iconian story line, or possibly as a feature series over the next 12 months is the move for END to be rid of the War in a PVE aspect.
This then means that any PVP end game content can be regarded as happening on the holodeck similar to what we have now with Fed vs Fed.
I agree with the OP. End the war... Or turn it into an actual war shooting hot war. Not the miserable cold war we are supposedly in.
However, I really can't see a hot war actually happening. Why? Because most of the player base is Federation and for the Federation to actually gear into a TOTAL WAR sort of machine is a very touchy subject. Mostly due to people wanting their Federation to be the TNG exploring kind rather than the war oriented kind in DS9.
A total war Federation would "annex" (let's face it, they have already in everything but name) by making them Federation members, and rearm them. The Romulan worlds that are friendly towards the Federation? Made affiliates and arm them too. This would open the door to putting cloaks on everything. Including the kitchen sink. Then the war could be fought evenly. And if you are unhappy with Feds having cloak, well its a TOTAL WAR! You do what ever it takes to win. Also you throw every resource you have into said war. Even the kitchen sink.
The war would probably go in the Klingons favor if Territory control was introduced, but only for a while. I think the average Klingon player is better skilled at PvP but I also think that he can't kill all the Feds. No matter what you numbers you put out there, Feds still out number Klingons and through a war of attrition I would say the Feds would eventually win after a long drawn out fight. And because of Tribble cannons that fire Tribbles are Klingons. That are mounted on the back of attack Hortas.
However all of the above doesn't really sound very Federation like, and would probably turn too many of the Feds away, which would put a big enough dent in the money numbers to ensure this never happens.
So my money is on some sort of peace. How else will the Devs explain the opening of borders, which I believe is on the table as something to be implemented (and something that can easily go terribly wrong for immersion if not handled well or explained immediately to new players). While the Klingons are blood thirsty, honor spouting, run and hide hypocrites, and the Feds are nebula exploring, anomaly scanning hypocrites, I think they can both agree that with the Borg, Iconians, and Undine, there is plenty of other people they could be fighting instead of each other.
With all my rational used up I want say that I will enjoy drinking Chatau Picard over the corpses of the Klingons I have killed on Qo'nos. And over the corpses of spoon heads on Cardassia Prime, and Romulans over whatever new capital they decide on. (Raptor III?) Long Live a militant Federation.
I could see endgame becoming cross-faction but the stories 1-41 should be faction unique. Granted, the featured episodes are great - they're pretty much filling the gap that the OP is wanting filled.
However, it's yet-another-thread wanting to solve KDF content problems by avoiding the issue entirely.
I'd much rather KDF versions of missions that explore the combat from the other perspective or ones that use as much as possible out of the Fed missions but spin it differently (the Doomsday Device could work as a KDF mission once you get to Imaga for example) - rather than shoehorning KDF into already lackluster Fed patrols.
Very good points Darren. Even if there was peace between the Federation and the KDF, that does not mean the KDF would ever agree to do things the Federation way. You would have better luck doing stand up comedy on Vulcan than convincing a Klingon captain to try the diplomatic approach.
That Topic is coming up a lot recently, and I hope Cryptic will listen.
Honestly, I hatet the Klingon-Federation war since I heard of it.
After the legendary very first Crew had the Epic final mission to END that war in ST6 we just randomly throw away centurys of peace for giving us a reason to make instanced PVP. While today the most pvp happens as "Wargames" in FvF anyway and nobody cares about the background.
Also: The game may have startet with the good intention of making two factions, but it just doesnt work.
I believe Cryptic simply doesnt have the resources to support two factions with new content.
So my favorite solution would be... as much as I believe people will hate me for that... to simply merge the factions with any background you want.... I mean we KNOW the Klingons WILL be part of the federation in the future, so why not now?
The problem is: We wont get even close to enough content to keep up with the feds, but we already have to much to throw it away.
So making any content available for everybody.... well the Feds will have fun with the Klingon ships, the Klingons.... wont have as much reason to complain about the lack of content.
A fleshed out Klingon faction would of course be better but after almost 1,5 years we know for certain THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN!
Or make it optional: We already have House-Wars. Make it a klingon civil war. Those who want can keep the KDF as pure PVP faction, and stay on the "Bad klingon" side, but they wouldnt have to expect new content. The other ones can join a Federation-friendly faction that.... that is actually a sub faction of the current federation.
Actually FirstAngelus, if you recall STO launched with KDF being a shell PVP only faction because Cryptic never imagined there would be players that want to only play Klingons. No PVE content was made, less than half as many ships were released and only one uniform. We the players asked for more content to flesh out the faction. If the die hard KDF players wanted to be Federation lackeys don't you think they would have just rolled Federation Klingons long ago?
Oh ad the house wars you mentioned, non existent since there aren't even any houses. It is exactly the same as FvF pvp. One match you are red team, the next blue.
Very good points Darren. Even if there was peace between the Federation and the KDF, that does not mean the KDF would ever agree to do things the Federation way. You would have better luck doing stand up comedy on Vulcan than convincing a Klingon captain to try the diplomatic approach.
True, but sadly, the devs had said that they won't start to build the Romulans that people want until the KDF is "finished". Being realistic.. .not going to happen. The rate of content generation is just too slow. The only hope we have is that when they get bought (maybe for their toolset) the influx of capital will drive them to churn content to make STO a showcase of the "new MMO" rather than what it is now.
I hate to say it but there might even be room to consider the "merging" and trying to still have some faction specific missions but to make the majority where it's not overly conflicting in substance available.
I think we could have our cake and eat it too. The Klingons are not are not a peace loving people and the way ST has traditionally dealt with their complex relationship with UFP is civil war. Have a Klingon civil war, perhaps the leading KDF houses make peace with UFP to fight Borg and Undine, while several other powerful houses, offended by the show of weakness, provoke a civil war. That way Klingons can enjoy the FED content as well as having a good reason for PVP and territorial control, with FED and KDF factions fighting the Klingon rebles for control of both FED and KDF territory. Cold War goes hot, but KDF players can play FED content while still staying KDF.
I think we could have our cake and eat it too. The Klingons are not are not a peace loving people and the way ST has traditionally dealt with their complex relationship with UFP is civil war. Have a Klingon civil war, perhaps the leading KDF houses make peace with UFP to fight Borg and Undine, while several other powerful houses, offended by the show of weakness, provoke a civil war. That way Klingons can enjoy the FED content as well as having a good reason for PVP and territorial control, with FED and KDF factions fighting the Klingon rebles for control of both FED and KDF territory. Cold War goes hot, but KDF players can play FED content while still staying KDF.
If Cryptic implemented this and made it possible for a player or entire fleets to flag themselves as members of one house or the other, ok. But I am willing to bet the pro peace house would either be a near ghost town or on good nights Fed alts.
No Peace with the Federation. Or rather no Peace unless it is over my dead body.
Given the disparity in player base numbers that could likely be arranged if necessary. :rolleyes:
Truth be told the current state of affairs benefits neither the factions or the game. It is only reasonable (I started to use the word logical but thought better of it) to make alterations that improve everyone's quality of life.
Comments
One word: griefing.
You're joking, right?
The Klingon Empire is more powerful than it's ever been before, and the Federation is at its weakest in centuries, fighting multiple wars and conflicts on multiple fronts. The Federation is spread too thin and it's in real danger of collapsing.
I want the War to flare up.
I want Klingon Space to grow, extending into both Psi Velorum and Alpha Trianguli.
I want the KDF to get new repeatable (like the Pi Canis Sorties) where they invade key Federation locales (K7, perhaps a member world we've heard of but never seen, like Bolia, Sauria, Rigel, or Caitan).
I look forward to the Borg invasion to come..
And hope full Alpha Quadrant Access means a whole slew of PvP invasion/defense missions as well as PvE missions on both sides.
I want a real shooting WAR!
And if wishes were unicorns.....
I'm looking at this from a gameplay perspective, honestly, more than a lore one. If both sides had launched with full PVE content, and robust PVP and lots of ship and player options, then I'd be all about having two seperate games with some cross over here and there.
But it didn't. Not even close.
Sidebar: This is NOT NOT NOT a Fed Carrier argument.
But the more we talked about Fed Carriers the more certain points came up:
A) There's not enough Klingon PVE content.
Those were two huge points that people kept banging away at as to why Carriers ~had~ to remain Klingon only. Now, let's set the carriers over there and look at those two points in a vacuum.
Is there enough Klingon PVE Content? Are there enough people playing Klingon?
Bottom line, we're talking over a month before we see the next featured episode. We're unlikely to get the new tutorials. When does anyone ~realistically~ think we're going to see nearly enough content KDF side to compare to what the Fed had launch? When will there be enough ships for KDF players to feel like "yeah, we got some variety over here now"?
Nothing against the developers but the rate of content release isn't supportive of that happening this year, or even in 2012. Which means maybe it's time to look to compromises. Maybe it's time to look at all those "fed only" mission arcs and open some up to the Kilngons. And the ONLY way that works, lore-wise, is for there to be some kind of truce.
The Lore is cracked enough by letting people fly around willy nilly through space when there's an ACTIVE SHOOTING WAR going on. If I see any KDF player on my Fed captain, anywhere in space I should be able engage them like any other ship of war.
But... we don't. We fly past each other and wave.
The Lore argument is kinda null.
I agree they lack content, but I'd rather see that addressed and improved than brushed aside and nulled by a merger with the KDF becoming allied to the Federation again.
^QFT^678910
1) Feds won't apologize for making the mistake of not backing the KDF when they should. And the KDF are notorious for holding grudges.
2) There has YET to be a climax in the Feds & KDF conflict. We need something major to occur, along with a sort of major "revelation" in the game, before the Feds & KDF begin peace talks again.
3) There is still the Romulan angle to consider ........
4) As well as the Cardassians & possibly the Dominion ........
5) The KDF & Undine will NEVER get along, & Feds are going to want to inform the Undine somehow they were tricked into starting everything.
6) The Borg are going to be a bigger pain in the neck real soon.
7) The Iconians (need I say more?) ...................
The war needs to continue for storyline purposes. It will have to end eventually to continue on to the ultimate antagonist of STO, but alot is unsettleed between the Feds & KDF right now.
With that said .............. Surrender is not in my vocabulary. I will continue to kill Klinks for their bloodwine until the war is won
^QFT^
The only way the war will end is the KDF proceeds to kick the Undine's collective extra-dimensional rears, then take their several pounds of flesh from both the Feds & the Romulans.
By "several pounds of flesh" I mean taking over large swaths of what is now, and has been historically, Federation and Romulan space (likely both Pi Canis & Psi Velorum, as well as the bottom half of Regulus, at last).
The KDF will only make peace if they face a mortal threat like a renewed (evolved) Borg or Iconians. The Feds will make peace with a ham sandwich so that really doesn't need a plot driver.
Really the Feds just want peace so K v F PVP matches hurt less.
And we all know this is where the federation Shines its brightest. at its darkest hour it always pull through.
The journey to level 51 takes you through a story... the path from Ensign to Vice Admiral is supposed to happen over many many years. Which is why KA is a good time travel mission.
Yes while you are lieutenant the story is the war with the Klingons.
By the time you've reached level 50 the Fed and Klingons are working together again, so the war is lessening due to a greater threat. The Borg.
What we should see with the progression of the Iconian story line, or possibly as a feature series over the next 12 months is the move for END to be rid of the War in a PVE aspect.
This then means that any PVP end game content can be regarded as happening on the holodeck similar to what we have now with Fed vs Fed.
However, I really can't see a hot war actually happening. Why? Because most of the player base is Federation and for the Federation to actually gear into a TOTAL WAR sort of machine is a very touchy subject. Mostly due to people wanting their Federation to be the TNG exploring kind rather than the war oriented kind in DS9.
A total war Federation would "annex" (let's face it, they have already in everything but name) by making them Federation members, and rearm them. The Romulan worlds that are friendly towards the Federation? Made affiliates and arm them too. This would open the door to putting cloaks on everything. Including the kitchen sink. Then the war could be fought evenly. And if you are unhappy with Feds having cloak, well its a TOTAL WAR! You do what ever it takes to win. Also you throw every resource you have into said war. Even the kitchen sink.
The war would probably go in the Klingons favor if Territory control was introduced, but only for a while. I think the average Klingon player is better skilled at PvP but I also think that he can't kill all the Feds. No matter what you numbers you put out there, Feds still out number Klingons and through a war of attrition I would say the Feds would eventually win after a long drawn out fight. And because of Tribble cannons that fire Tribbles are Klingons. That are mounted on the back of attack Hortas.
However all of the above doesn't really sound very Federation like, and would probably turn too many of the Feds away, which would put a big enough dent in the money numbers to ensure this never happens.
So my money is on some sort of peace. How else will the Devs explain the opening of borders, which I believe is on the table as something to be implemented (and something that can easily go terribly wrong for immersion if not handled well or explained immediately to new players). While the Klingons are blood thirsty, honor spouting, run and hide hypocrites, and the Feds are nebula exploring, anomaly scanning hypocrites, I think they can both agree that with the Borg, Iconians, and Undine, there is plenty of other people they could be fighting instead of each other.
With all my rational used up I want say that I will enjoy drinking Chatau Picard over the corpses of the Klingons I have killed on Qo'nos. And over the corpses of spoon heads on Cardassia Prime, and Romulans over whatever new capital they decide on. (Raptor III?) Long Live a militant Federation.
However, it's yet-another-thread wanting to solve KDF content problems by avoiding the issue entirely.
I'd much rather KDF versions of missions that explore the combat from the other perspective or ones that use as much as possible out of the Fed missions but spin it differently (the Doomsday Device could work as a KDF mission once you get to Imaga for example) - rather than shoehorning KDF into already lackluster Fed patrols.
Honestly, I hatet the Klingon-Federation war since I heard of it.
After the legendary very first Crew had the Epic final mission to END that war in ST6 we just randomly throw away centurys of peace for giving us a reason to make instanced PVP. While today the most pvp happens as "Wargames" in FvF anyway and nobody cares about the background.
Also: The game may have startet with the good intention of making two factions, but it just doesnt work.
I believe Cryptic simply doesnt have the resources to support two factions with new content.
So my favorite solution would be... as much as I believe people will hate me for that... to simply merge the factions with any background you want.... I mean we KNOW the Klingons WILL be part of the federation in the future, so why not now?
The problem is: We wont get even close to enough content to keep up with the feds, but we already have to much to throw it away.
So making any content available for everybody.... well the Feds will have fun with the Klingon ships, the Klingons.... wont have as much reason to complain about the lack of content.
A fleshed out Klingon faction would of course be better but after almost 1,5 years we know for certain THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN!
Or make it optional: We already have House-Wars. Make it a klingon civil war. Those who want can keep the KDF as pure PVP faction, and stay on the "Bad klingon" side, but they wouldnt have to expect new content. The other ones can join a Federation-friendly faction that.... that is actually a sub faction of the current federation.
Oh ad the house wars you mentioned, non existent since there aren't even any houses. It is exactly the same as FvF pvp. One match you are red team, the next blue.
True, but sadly, the devs had said that they won't start to build the Romulans that people want until the KDF is "finished". Being realistic.. .not going to happen. The rate of content generation is just too slow. The only hope we have is that when they get bought (maybe for their toolset) the influx of capital will drive them to churn content to make STO a showcase of the "new MMO" rather than what it is now.
I hate to say it but there might even be room to consider the "merging" and trying to still have some faction specific missions but to make the majority where it's not overly conflicting in substance available.
Blasphemy....
If Cryptic implemented this and made it possible for a player or entire fleets to flag themselves as members of one house or the other, ok. But I am willing to bet the pro peace house would either be a near ghost town or on good nights Fed alts.
Given the disparity in player base numbers that could likely be arranged if necessary. :rolleyes:
Truth be told the current state of affairs benefits neither the factions or the game. It is only reasonable (I started to use the word logical but thought better of it) to make alterations that improve everyone's quality of life.