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Cryptic, could you please re-nerf FAW?

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    There are ways to counter FAW noobs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    SteveHale wrote: »
    It's not about nerfing FAW because it's good, or because people use it. It's about fixing it because it's too good without any effort or a single draw back. Cannons, for which there are two abilities in total, both of which are able to be used very effectively by Feds and Klinks alike, have a significant cost in BO slots, require actual piloting and a significant amount of risk in order to use them to their full effectiveness. FAW in use by any Cruiser with half a clue is too easy, too strong, and too right for any situation or position.

    The problem with this is the NERF door swings both ways. When you start asking for a NERF to crusiers (which mainly use FAW) then it's only a matter of time before it comes back around to your escort. The shoe does fit the other foot, here.

    Escorts have been "king" for awhile now. Crusiers did need something and this seems to be the shot in the arm that development wanted and designed/CHANGED it for. You can tell when there is a need as hardly ANY1 used FAW before the fix in PVP. There was a reason for that. It's NOT OP, but crusiers with the right build can be very viable now, when they just haven't been for a while, as long as everything is not on cooldown. You know, kinda just exactly like an escort is.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    It's not about nerfing Cruisers, it's about fixing a broken skill. If Cruisers were meant to be able to do everything in this game as good as or better than anything else then there wouldn't be much of a point of having other ships or skills.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Esquire wrote: »
    It's NOT OP, but crusiers with the right build can be very viable now, when they just haven't been for a while, as long as everything is not on cooldown. You know, kinda just exactly like an escort is.

    (Damage dealing) cruisers with the right build were viable before New FAW™ appeared. Maybe not the best choice when you were looking for the optimal 5-player team build, but certainly good enough to compete. New Faw™ is a +100% damage buff to an already viable build.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Armsman wrote: »
    I hate to say this, but I play both sides of the aisle too; and I know how CSV is used and I have it on my KDF character. I had FAW before the cange, and continue to use it after; and sorry, in the 15 or so PvP matches I've been in (a majority have been C&H); it's hardly the new 'I Win' power (even with a group of 3+); and if you swap outr Cannons for Beams on a more manuverable BoP or Escort, you loose a LOT of Aplha strike capacity (which is the strongpoint of a Escort/Bop group with proper healing support.) I'm sorry that FAW went from laughable, to moderately useful in PvP.

    My point thouh? If you're looking to nerf FAW because people with beams want to take it (aka it's too good and too many people want it - waah!); they need to look at similar skills like CSV (whick EVERY cannon build takes too.)

    CSV isn't used. Not by anyone that's actually serious about pvping. At most you have one copy of Mark 1 to assist in spam clearing. (And now that FAW is king of Everything you don't even need that)

    Beams were already fine, and quite capable of shredding people open. There was plenty of damage to be had with beams before. Particularly once you start talking Overload 3 and 2 on AP or Disruptor weapons.

    That you are now putting out so much DPS that it's superior to even massed Cannon Burst Fire from multiple ships without having to get in close, or properly cooridinate any sort of assault is very telling of the state of FAW.

    There is not a single disadvantage to a pure cruiser team now. They have the burst DPS (by sheer volume of fire and Overloads if they really need them) they have the best tanking, and the best cross healing. FAW has made every other ship class virtually obsolete.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Esquire wrote: »
    Crusiers did need something and this seems to be the shot in the arm that development wanted and designed/CHANGED it for. You can tell when there is a need as hardly ANY1 used FAW before the fix in PVP. There was a reason for that. It's NOT OP, but crusiers with the right build can be very viable now, when they just haven't been for a while, as long as everything is not on cooldown. You know, kinda just exactly like an escort is.

    One of the biggest problems the STO community has had with the Cryptic team is that a lot of times they *DON'T* test things before they put it out. This was the case with many of the FE mission rewards, like tractor mines and the ghostbuster gun. They changed FAW to deal with spam, but in the process also increased the damage output for some reason, thereby making it a little bit OP.

    Fire at will IS a little bit overpowered. But only a little bit. They increased the number of shots fired, which does more damage based on frequency. But they also increased the damage that each shot does...thereby tripling the damage. If they simply adjusted the damage done per shot to normal, it would be nicely in balance. And for the record, I use it most efficiently on my escort, where I can use both FAW 3 and BO3, so I make stuff go boom quite often.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Todu wrote:
    There are ways to counter FAW noobs.

    Sry.. You cant keep your crutch :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Sry.. You cant keep your crutch :)

    I guess he has a valid point about adapting to the new fotm...but yeah...FAW will get fixed, it's only a matter of time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I guess he has a valid point about adapting to the new fotm...but yeah...FAW will get fixed, it's only a matter of time.

    That's the problem, short of Scramble (and that's still a dodgy prospect) there is no real counter to FAW. Maybe if you ran a total zombie cruiser and everyone on your team did you could live through it, but you'd be dealing no damage. Making a perpetual stalemate.

    It out powers every resistance in the game with ease.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Mavairo wrote:
    That's the problem, short of Scramble (and that's still a dodgy prospect) there is no real counter to FAW. Maybe if you ran a total zombie cruiser and everyone on your team did you could live through it, but you'd be dealing no damage. Making a perpetual stalemate.

    It out powers every resistance in the game with ease.

    That's not true. Any kind of weapon drain exponentially lowers the damage of FAW, even to the point where you are doing less DPS by running FAW. LORE has been able to shut down FAW teams for awhile now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Esquire wrote: »
    The problem with this is the NERF door swings both ways. When you start asking for a NERF to crusiers (which mainly use FAW) then it's only a matter of time before it comes back around to your escort. The shoe does fit the other foot, here.

    Escorts have been "king" for awhile now. Crusiers did need something and this seems to be the shot in the arm that development wanted and designed/CHANGED it for. You can tell when there is a need as hardly ANY1 used FAW before the fix in PVP. There was a reason for that. It's NOT OP, but crusiers with the right build can be very viable now, when they just haven't been for a while, as long as everything is not on cooldown. You know, kinda just exactly like an escort is.

    Escorts have been king for awhile? LOL... that's why everyone was calling this game "Cruisers Online," right, because of all the escorts flying around? That's why healing and resists are getting reworked right, because escorts heal and resist stack too well? I don't know where you are coming from but saying this was designed because cruisers need this "shot in the arm" is utterly ridiculous. As so many others have pointed out, FAW doubles dmg output with no drawback largely because of the huge amount of up time and very large arc of effect. Why should a cruiser have comparable DPS to it's escort counterparts? Doesn't it already out heal and out tank every other ship? Do we really want this game to go to 5 cruisers vs 5 cruisers spamming FAW?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I have an idea. Let's just do away with Cruisers, Science ships, Science Captains and Engineers altogether so the Space Rogues can all have their big 'ol unrestrained cockfights.

    It seems to me that while on the surface, most of the arguement is about FAW, itself but really comes from the perspective of Escort and BoP captains using a rare and extreme example of an all-beamboat team to have yet another Cruiser-favored ability marginalized. Shield Resistance being the other.

    9/11!!!

    9/11!!!

    9/11!!!

    CRYPTIC!! DO SOMETHING NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!

    I had no problem with FAW before but apparently it was OP then too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    hurleybird wrote: »
    That's not true. Any kind of weapon drain exponentially lowers the damage of FAW, even to the point where you are doing less DPS by running FAW. LORE has been able to shut down FAW teams for awhile now.

    Using what? Tykens? Eps makes you immune (or close enough) Scramble? That only mitigates -some- incoming damage, and assumes they are not returning the favor.

    Stuns? 15 second immunity after the first stun, and that's assuming they don't use things like Aux to Damp, or APO.

    Esiphon? Please not even 5 ships pumping that TRIBBLE skill can do anything really to power levels.

    Target Weapon? EPTW counters with 100 percent up time. Weapon batteries, and oh since it's a cruiser team there's more than enough Eng Teams to go around.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Doomicile wrote:
    I have an idea. Let's just do away with Cruisers, Science ships, Science Captains and Engineers altogether so the Space Rogues can all have their big 'ol unrestrained cockfights.

    It seems to me that while on the surface, most of the arguement is about FAW, itself but really comes from the perspective of Escort and BoP captains using a rare and extreme example of an all-beamboat team to have yet another Cruiser-favored ability marginalized. Shield Resistance being the other.

    9/11!!!

    9/11!!!

    9/11!!!

    CRYPTIC!! DO SOMETHING NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!

    I had no problem with FAW before but apparently it was OP then too.


    Yes, since sci ships so aren't rendered useless as well either.
    Escorts suck compared to a FAW team, Sci Ships suck compared to a FAW team (unless they are RSVs that join in on the fun and run a Guns First setup. Which I can easily do)

    So lets see, if you aren't part of a FAW team and you are fighting one... you're boned. More than likely if you aren't flying a Cruiser. Yeah ...that's Escorts and bops having nothing to complain about...right.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Doomicile wrote:
    I have an idea. Let's just do away with Cruisers, Science ships, Science Captains and Engineers altogether so the Space Rogues can all have their big 'ol unrestrained cockfights.

    It seems to me that while on the surface, most of the arguement is about FAW, itself but really comes from the perspective of Escort and BoP captains using a rare and extreme example of an all-beamboat team to have yet another Cruiser-favored ability marginalized. Shield Resistance being the other.

    9/11!!!

    9/11!!!

    9/11!!!

    CRYPTIC!! DO SOMETHING NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!

    I had no problem with FAW before but apparently it was OP then too.

    Somethings wrong with you, Dude.

    And for the record I captained a cruiser for almost a whole year. I finally switched because so many others were flying cruisers too and it made things no fun having it cruiser vs cruiser all the time. Cruiser heavy teams are not far fetched, they are the norm (talking PUGs here).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    You cried about the old FAW so Cryptic made some changes.

    Now you're all screaming bloody murder and won't be satisfied until Cryptic removes the ability altogether.

    For the record, I've flown just about every ship class and still change from time to time when I get bored but in my experience whether it's a pug or premade, we do worse with an abundance of cruisers than we do with a couple escorts and at least one Science ship. At the very least it's a long, boring slog to victory with an all cruiser team, to the point where I just want to leave rather finish the match.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Mavairo wrote:

    Target Weapon? EPTW counters with 100 percent up time. Weapon batteries, and oh since it's a cruiser team there's more than enough Eng Teams to go around.

    No expert here, but this is exactly what I thought of too. :(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Doomicile wrote:
    I have an idea. Let's just do away with Cruisers, Science ships, Science Captains and Engineers altogether so the Space Rogues can all have their big 'ol unrestrained cockfights.

    It seems to me that while on the surface, most of the arguement is about FAW, itself but really comes from the perspective of Escort and BoP captains using a rare and extreme example of an all-beamboat team to have yet another Cruiser-favored ability marginalized. Shield Resistance being the other.

    9/11!!!

    9/11!!!

    9/11!!!

    CRYPTIC!! DO SOMETHING NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!

    I had no problem with FAW before but apparently it was OP then too.

    It doesn't take an escort pilot to point out that a dmg skill is broken. This skill is just as broken if a team of escorts wanted to load all single beams and spiral round a group of space whales lighting them up with faw... in fact due to FAWS improper placing in the skill tree two could load beta 3 and they could rock them keeping evey player on the other team debuffed -42 for the whole match (for as long as it lasted) the other 3 could just load OMEGA 3 to completely make the dmg ridiculous.

    This isn't about Cruisers or Escorts or Sci ships... Every ship in the game has the ability to run faw. Its about FAW not working properly. Everyone knows this skill is broken, defend it now only makes me question your motives. You obviously run the skill and like the free dmg.
    Someone at some point simply pointed out that the game has 3 ship classes.... escorts are the glass cannon dmg dealers... Cruisers can deal dmg of course, however they have the strongest hulls in the game as they are pretty much the tank class, not intended to be the Hammer Class. Sci ships are the CC class.

    Also note... not many long time players in this game don't have a toon in almost every ship... I have 9 full level toons myself. 4 of them are in Escort / Bops... 2 of them are Sci Ships... 3 of them are in cruisers. Faw could work in any of them. I play my escorts more sure there more fun to me anyway. Regardless the skill itself is broken.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Doomicile wrote:
    You cried about the old FAW so Cryptic made some changes.

    Now you're all screaming bloody murder and won't be satisfied until Cryptic removes the ability altogether.

    The skill needs to be rained in is all... it should have = dmg boasts to CSV.... It should have a Arc Limiter same as CSV as well. That would make it a great spam clearing skill... and sure give you a double dmg bonus if you can line up two targets with in the skills arc. This would bring it in line with the other AOE skills in the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Doomicile wrote:
    You cried about the old FAW so Cryptic made some changes.

    Now you're all screaming bloody murder and won't be satisfied until Cryptic removes the ability altogether.

    First, I never said anything about the old FAW. I typically let the smarter guys do all the talking as they know the game far better than I. Secondly, no one has advocated for its complete removal from game. Balancing the ability seems to be the consensus.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Here is Azurian's idea that would even keep the PvE people happy that need broken abilities to win (I suspectthat's only a vocal minority only, most people can probably see that a power that doubles your damage output or more starting at ensign level is out of line compared to other powers of equal rank): Second shot only hits NPC targets. In PvE, it stays as overpowered as it is...

    Yes, doubling damage is so imbalanced... like HYT1?

    I'd suggest limiting the number of times a given target can be hit by each multiattack, but that might be too Hard for them to bother with.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Doomicile wrote:
    You cried about the old FAW so Cryptic made some changes.

    Now you're all screaming bloody murder and won't be satisfied until Cryptic removes the ability altogether.

    For the record, I've flown just about every ship class and still change from time to time when I get bored but in my experience whether it's a pug or premade, we do worse with an abundance of cruisers than we do with a couple escorts and at least one Science ship. At the very least it's a long, boring slog to victory with an all cruiser team, to the point where I just want to leave rather finish the match.

    Old FAW was literally bugged. It was literally a hiccup in the game's coding. And the ships best utilized to use that particular bug were Escorts, with Triple Dual Beam Banks and TBR.

    Would you like to move the goal posts again?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I run FAW I to clean trash and wear down shields. My primary damage, believe or not is a Tricobolt Torp and I've been rather effective at it, even before the FAW changes. For me, nothing's changed. I've yet to face this infamous all-beamboat exploit team but even if I did, I'd deal with it.

    Maybe I'm just venting, in part, but I'm tired of logging in to find abilities I've used since headstart continuously getting nerfed, excuse me 'balanced' only over the last few months for some reason. I dunno, maybe because more Feds are PvPing now than they did since launch and perhaps some of them have actually gotten better at it?

    Restrict Escorts to Cannons only? How about that?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Doomicile wrote:
    I run FAW I to clean trash and wear down shields. My primary damage, believe or not is a Tricobolt Torp and I've been rather effective at it, even before the FAW changes. For me, nothing's changed. I've yet to face this infamous all-beamboat exploit team but even if I did, I'd deal with it.

    Honestly many of the games frequent pvp players have sworn off of FAW. (I don't have issues with anyone running a copy the drop in spam is nice... I don't care for teams running 5 copies and being goofs however) You likely havn't seen many of the usual suspects flying faw builds for that reason. There out there... but ya not as much the last few days. I am assuming its just more people taking it off their ships. I don't know I don't see the point of running something you know is broken anyway... it would make the win feel cheap too me... but this game seems full of people willing to do it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Husanak wrote: »
    Honestly many of the games frequent pvp players have sworn off of FAW. (I don't have issues with anyone running a copy the drop in spam is nice... I don't care for teams running 5 copies and being goofs however) You likely havn't seen many of the usual suspects flying faw builds for that reason. There out there... but ya not as much the last few days. I am assuming its just more people taking it off their ships. I don't know I don't see the point of running something you know is broken anyway... it would make the win feel cheap too me... but this game seems full of people willing to do it.

    If TorpSpread could effectively clear trash as well as FAW, I'd happily switch it out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Doomicile wrote:
    I run FAW I to clean trash and wear down shields. My primary damage, believe or not is a Tricobolt Torp and I've been rather effective at it, even before the FAW changes. For me, nothing's changed. I've yet to face this infamous all-beamboat exploit team but even if I did, I'd deal with it.

    Maybe I'm just venting, in part, but I'm tired of logging in to find abilities I've used since headstart continuously getting nerfed, excuse me 'balanced' only over the last few months for some reason. I dunno, maybe because more Feds are PvPing now than they did since launch and perhaps some of them have actually gotten better at it?

    Restrict Escorts to Cannons only? How about that?

    The only thing that changed with the old FAW was, FAW3. FAW1 and 2 were unchanged, and 3 was only bugged with DBBs.

    That's because this game was loaded with a crapton of broken stuff.
    None of which was balanced. None of which made for strategic gameplay.

    At one point, I could solo 3 stacked Cruisers with CSV3 because of how heinously poorly designed it was. They fixed that one long long ago.

    Just end up in a game against TSI. You'll see it sooner or later then. I find the damn thing rather appaling myself, to the point where I'm finding it very hard to justify queing up, or even renewing my sub when the 13 hits.

    We are a year into this game, Cryptic should know better than this by now, than to keep introducing TRIBBLE everyone and their kid brother told them was going to be Bad News about on tribble, while they continue to ignore the pvp community's desires for new maps, game modes, and specific balance issues.

    (Which once FAW gets nerfed, and it will......eventually whether I'm here or not when it does is up for debate. The original thing that it was meant to Fix will be back in full force. Namely Mine and Pet Spam)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Victory275 wrote: »
    Escorts have been king for awhile? LOL... that's why everyone was calling this game "Cruisers Online," right, because of all the escorts flying around? That's why healing and resists are getting reworked right, because escorts heal and resist stack too well? I don't know where you are coming from but saying this was designed because cruisers need this "shot in the arm" is utterly ridiculous. As so many others have pointed out, FAW doubles dmg output with no drawback largely because of the huge amount of up time and very large arc of effect. Why should a cruiser have comparable DPS to it's escort counterparts? Doesn't it already out heal and out tank every other ship? Do we really want this game to go to 5 cruisers vs 5 cruisers spamming FAW?

    I highly doubt that this game will go for 5 crusiers v 5 crusiers spamming FAW. Just like you appearently do, there will always be the PVP players who go for max spike DPS and that isn't a crusier, it's a escort. PVP seems and seemed to be all about the DPS and the beams you all are going after are the lowest DPS weapons available. They just got that "shot in the arm" to make a "beam-boat" viable, like it or not.

    I haven't seen any1 calling this game "crusiers online" and I happen to be in a fleet that PVPs quite a bit. Being in the "tactical fleet" (PVP arm of this very large fleet) I would imagine that I would of heard this by now if it was as prevelant as you state.

    It is well accepted that escorts were and are to be the highest damage of any ship in the PVP instances and to the better ones, they STILL are and will continue to be. It is now just a little dangerous to get close to that crusier with FAW and BO ready to go. And to be honest, I fly a "beam-boat"/Tac captain and my highest damage is not FAW. I've got some very nice crits with a full set of APs and BO which outclass' the spike damage of FAW to no end. FAW has it's usages and is for a purpose. Just because you didn't see the power used as much before, didn't make it "balanced" before, just to your liking. It made it under-balanced before and you now see crusier" beam-boat captains" seeing the worth of the power, after the CHANGE. That's why Cryptic looked at FAW in the 1st place, to make it more of a valid choice. Beam using crusiers now have TWO (2) powers to use with their beams now also, just exactly like cannons in escorts.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Esquire wrote: »
    I haven't seen any1 calling this game "crusiers online" and I happen to be in a fleet that PVPs quite a bit.

    I'm sorry, but this part of your statement alone calls everything you have to contribute into question. Or it might if I can bring myself to read anything else you have to "contribute". Seriously? You've never heard of Cruisers Online!? I suppose you've never heard about spam either, lol.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    SteveHale wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but this part of your statement alone calls everything you have to contribute into question. Or it might if I can bring myself to read anything else you have to "contribute". Seriously? You've never heard of Cruisers Online!? I suppose you've never heard about spam either, lol.

    Spam? I haven't seen much of that in a long time. lol
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    FAW isn't broken if you're queuing solo, and especially not if you're just running one copy of FAW 1 or 2. I get annoyed with the nerfwhine because my use of FAW has everything to do with spam and nothing to do with it's current state. I didn't mean to be FOTM, but I get accused of it if I play my favorite character, even though my build is one I used months ago when the carrier-spam teams started making things silly.

    I really like that my DPS against my primary target no longer drops when I use FAW, but I definitely never intended to group with a full team spamming it, and I still use 2-3 torpedoes in addition to beams.

    I think FAW probably needs a nerf (I'd prefer the bonus damage and cooldown be nerfed, but the ability still function in the same way), but it really bugs me when people cry about something I was doing months ago. Then again I get nasty tells when I use EWP too, and I don't see that many other people using that (the loudest whiners are BoP skippers that were riding my six and got surprised when I popped an engine battery and backed over them at high speed -- they never seem to see that coming).
This discussion has been closed.