Cryptic, could you please re-nerf FAW?

System

Cryptic, would you please consider readjusting Beam Fire at Will once again?

Right now its great to clear out that NPC spam, but FAW abuse in PvP has gotten to be too much to even play as a Klingon since so many Federation players now use it and easily overwhelms players, especially Klingons due to a good size of the PvP faction using Bird of Preys, which are easily suspectable to this FAW spam.

This has become really abused with Excelsiors in which are able to stack FAW3 with DEM3 and other buffs like Pattern Alpha and Pattern Beta. This in effect can easily go through opposition like a hot knife through butter. And due to the insane heal stacking, its near impossible to destroy such players.


May I suggest FAW targets mainly NPCs for crowd control than a simple rapid fire? Or at least it unable to stack with such above buffs to multiply it's effects?


But whatever you decide on, could you please make it soon?

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I think that they should get rid of all powers and weapons for PvP, and everyone can launch tribbles at each other.

But only one ship at a time so that there is no complaint over spam.

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wrote:

Cryptic, would you please consider readjusting Beam Fire at Will once again?

Right now its great to clear out that NPC spam, but FAW abuse in PvP has gotten to be too much to even play as a Klingon since so many Federation players now use it and easily overwhelms players, especially Klingons due to a good size of the PvP faction using Bird of Preys, which are easily suspectable to this FAW spam.

This has become really abused with Excelsiors in which are able to stack FAW3 with DEM3 and other buffs like Pattern Alpha and Pattern Beta. This in effect can easily go through opposition like a hot knife through butter. And due to the insane heal stacking, its near impossible to destroy such players.


May I suggest FAW targets mainly NPCs for crowd control than a simple rapid fire? Or at least it unable to stack with such above buffs to multiply it's effects?


But whatever you decide on, could you please make it soon?

there are a lot of questions about Faw going on. One of which is what is it supposed to do? Is it supposed to hit everything in the area as a way to grab aggro of npcs? is it supposed to simply fire at all targets of opportunity? and should it be stronger or weaker than your normal shots?

I always thought that fire at will would mean each phaser would fire at anything it could, as fast as it could. That would correspond to an increase in energy used up, and possibly a decrease in the efficiency due to overheating. (meaning less damage or accuracy)

right now it increases the number of shots - fine. but it also increases the damage somehow. While i do agree it should be able to target multiple enemies; after all, it is a spam clearing power; but it should be doing far less damage than if it concentrated all of its energy on a single target.

in response to npc only... I have to disagree. If (somehow) you found a pvp match where no one was dropping mines/scorpion fighters/fleet support/photonic fleet/fighter pets/ect. FAW should still be able to hit multiple enemy player ships. I just don't think it should do anywhere near the same amount of damage.

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Geoduck360 wrote:

I think that they should get rid of all powers and weapons for PvP, and everyone can launch tribbles at each other.

But only one ship at a time so that there is no complaint over spam.

Here is Azurian's idea that would even keep the PvE people happy that need broken abilities to win (I suspectthat's only a vocal minority only, most people can probably see that a power that doubles your damage output or more starting at ensign level is out of line compared to other powers of equal rank): Second shot only hits NPC targets. In PvE, it stays as overpowered as it is...

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FAW is great for clearing the chaff. Not so great as an offensive weapon against the primary enemy. I find when I use it that my shots on my primary target are reduced significantly, while other targets receive some attention. The bottom line is that FAW is the antithesis of focus fire, spreading the damage around, but with no significant damage against primary targets. No nerf needed.

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As hard as it may be to take some of chicken little's threads seriously, this one is largely correct. FAW has a number of potentially great changes but even after significant testing and feedback this abomination was pushed through. There is no downside to using this skill. There is no skill required in using this skill.

Now, before this thread turns into something regarding buff stacking or the poor pitiful Klingon's and their BoPs, the focus will hopefully remain on the need for FAW to be adjusted (yes, again).

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Annnnnd this is exactly what happens when devs cater to the demands of the player base...

Complain about pet/mine/tric spam...
Devs fix.
Complain about the ineffectiveness of Fire at Will...
Devs fix.
Complain about Carriers...
Devs fix.
Complain about Gravity Well...
Devs fix.

And in every single one of these cases, the 'fix' just ended up making MORE people complain! :rolleyes:

So when do the devs take matters into their own hands and adjust the game in a way that just MAKES SENSE instead of changing the game to appease those that incessantly complain?

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Maybe it would help if rather than trying to change things to make them make sense, they released things that were well thought out and thoroughly tested in the first place. Yes, there are complaints and I'm sure it's hard to sort through the ones with merit and the ones that are merely self serving. To suggest that the complaints are the problem is a bit off target though.

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Azurian wrote: »

Cryptic, would you please consider readjusting Beam Fire at Will once again?

Right now its great to clear out that NPC spam, but FAW abuse in PvP has gotten to be too much to even play as a Klingon since so many Federation players now use it and easily overwhelms players, especially Klingons due to a good size of the PvP faction using Bird of Preys, which are easily suspectable to this FAW spam.

This has become really abused with Excelsiors in which are able to stack FAW3 with DEM3 and other buffs like Pattern Alpha and Pattern Beta. This in effect can easily go through opposition like a hot knife through butter. And due to the insane heal stacking, its near impossible to destroy such players.


May I suggest FAW targets mainly NPCs for crowd control than a simple rapid fire? Or at least it unable to stack with such above buffs to multiply it's effects?


But whatever you decide on, could you please make it soon?

KDF has Carriers that can spawn Bird of Prey which makes no sense to me. Bird of Prey are to large to be in a carrier and you get universal BO slots and Battle Cloak. But I never complain. I learn to deal with it.

Klingons complain about Fedball, Excelsior because of Lt Commander Tactical slot, Galaxy X and Defiant with cloak (which isn't even battle cloak). Scatter Volley which still does more damage then FAW. But now this. Maybe all Feds should play in tier 1 ships so you could feel OP. Stop asking for nerf and become a better player. That is what I had to do.

In PvE Scatter Volley 1 can take out the 3 frigate ships group together in one pass but FAW2 can't even do that. I test both and FAW is still just not very powerful. In PvP I primary use it to clear out the pets. I do more damage on a single ship with broadside then with FAW.

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Please recognize that this is not a Fed/Klink issue. This is not a nerf issue. This is about correcting something that doesn't work as intended across either faction.

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White Knight wrote:

KDF has Carriers that can spawn Bird of Prey which makes no sense to me. Bird of Prey are to large to be in a carrier and you get universal BO slots and Battle Cloak. But I never complain. I learn to deal with it.

Klingons complain about Fedball, Excelsior because of Lt Commander Tactical slot, Galaxy X and Defiant with cloak (which isn't even battle cloak). Scatter Volley which still does more damage then FAW. But now this. Maybe all Feds should play in tier 1 ships so you could feel OP. Stop asking for nerf and become a better player. That is what I had to do.

In PvE Scatter Volley 1 can take out the 3 frigate ships group together in one pass but FAW2 can't even do that. I test both and FAW is still just not very powerful. In PvP I primary use it to clear out the pets. I do more damage on a single ship with broadside then with FAW.

Can't honestly compare the an abilities useage in PvE to that of abilities being used in PvP. And Scatter Volley is much more limited than Fire at Will, which prevent it from really being exploited. Mainly which the only ships that can really use it to the full potential are BoPs and Escorts.

But FAW2 or 3 can really do some good amount of damage with not so much negative return. Plus it has a short cooldown so you don't really need two of the same ability.

On top of that, the effect is greatly multiplied when you add in Direct Energy Modulation, Pattern Alpha, Pattern Beta, and other buffs like Emergency Weapons. And with such a combination, it really shows. Then factor in teams with 2 or more of these ships and the other side really does not have a chance.


But from what I'm told this is an old Broken Mechanic that was never fixed. So I'm hoping the Dev Team sees this and reevalutates certain buffs.

Treagersama wrote: »

Annnnnd this is exactly what happens when devs cater to the demands of the player base...

Complain about pet/mine/tric spam...
Devs fix.
Complain about the ineffectiveness of Fire at Will...
Devs fix.
Complain about Carriers...
Devs fix.
Complain about Gravity Well...
Devs fix.

And in every single one of these cases, the 'fix' just ended up making MORE people complain! :rolleyes:

So when do the devs take matters into their own hands and adjust the game in a way that just MAKES SENSE instead of changing the game to appease those that incessantly complain?

Someone on the Tribble Forum said it best, that this is a death spira, where there is just quick fixes than actual solutions to the core of the problem.

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i personally dont see the issue with this, in pvp it hits your primarry target and another target per beam aslong as the targets are within the firing arc, its not like they fire a full 360 with faw, to even compare the damage from faw to something like an escort using heavy cannons with scatter shot would be about equal.

and cannons can be way more devestating then beams on an escort espec under the control of a tac with attack patterns etc and rapid fire they can chew through shields in seconds, and yes i know what peeps are going to say but they have a very small firing arc, that is true but they are also on ships that can move at incredible speeds and turn on a penny where ships that carry beams are slower moving and turn like an albatros, its swings and roundabouts.

if your so worried about faw get rsp or feedback pulse or maybe both, for every skill there are 2-4 skills that counter it, tons of techniques and play styles to get around it, its called tactics.

this game falls under the same trap as wow, its mutli layered for full pve ( limited on kdf) and pvp. the only true way to balance skills in this enviroment is to have 2 entire different skill sets for both, on sto that equals 4 skill sets, npc's will never engage and react like real people as such skills are balanced on the middle ground between AI and RI so there will always be a grey area with some skills which is why we see the nerf and buff bat swing, but you cant please everyone and they know to much can break a skill

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White Knight wrote:

KDF has Carriers that can spawn Bird of Prey which makes no sense to me. Bird of Prey are to large to be in a carrier and you get universal BO slots and Battle Cloak.

If you don't midn I'd like to adress this part exclusively.
The "carrier" as it is called is actually not a carrier in the sense of the carriers we have today.
There was a piece about it on the STO website that was removed well over a year ago that explained what it really is:
A mobile command station intended to lead an invasion force.
It also has docking facilities for smaller ships to repair and maintain them.
There was also an official size figure listed.
Suricata made a sizechart of those ships and that should show why the carrier can alunch BoPs:

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/klingonships18.png

As for the universals, my personal opinion on that is that Cryptic could not be bothered to make a fully rounded KDF fleet, we all know how rushed things were especially on the KDF side of things, so they gave the KDF the "do everything ship" with universals to get around this problem.

As for the cloaking issue with Federation ships:
It was about the simple fact that the Federation never employed cloaking beyond a few unique ships.
The Defiant only had one borrowed from the Romulans and her replacement from the last episodes of DS9 had none along with all the other Defiants we saw.
Also the cloak was an important characteristic of the Romulans and the Klingons, never the Federation.
It also goes entirely against what Roddenberry himself said about the Federation, he pretty much said "They don't use it, period".

Also it took away some of the uniqueness of the Klingons for reasons never exlpained beyond "the Klingons have it, the Federation must have it too"
And yet some people want those two ships to have a battlecloak even though nether the Klingon Escorts (Raptors) nor the Klingon cruisers have it.
So according to their logic it is unfair that the Federation does not have an ability the Klingons don't have themselves.
I find that strange.

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Sh1ngara wrote:

i personally dont see the issue with this, in pvp it hits your primarry target and another target per beam aslong as the targets are within the firing arc, its not like they fire a full 360 with faw, to even compare the damage from faw to something like an escort using heavy cannons with scatter shot would be about equal.

Broadsiding allows all 8 beams to be on target. The issue is the mechanics of the ability where as your ship can put 100 percent weapon fire on 1 ship and put out another 100 percent weapon fire on other targets, The fewer the targets the harder it hits them. Multiple ships running this can at 1 point give out the equivalent of 10 ships. (2x weapons power per ship) It is however, useless against 1 ship alone.

and cannons can be way more devestating then beams on an escort espec under the control of a tac with attack patterns etc and rapid fire they can chew through shields in seconds, and yes i know what peeps are going to say but they have a very small firing arc, that is true but they are also on ships that can move at incredible speeds and turn on a penny where ships that carry beams are slower moving and turn like an albatros, its swings and roundabouts.

Yes, cannons pack more bunch over beams but currently pvp is loaded with beam boats because the sustained damage is currently much higher then the before FAW sustained damage. Another issue is cloaked ships are the most susceptible ship to FAW because the computer targeting system detects and fires at your ship instantly. A human player is not that fast and could not react to fire 1 beam before the decloaking ship finishes decloaking. Escorts are in a bind here because they take damage before the shields come up. Then their shields are whittled down in seconds. My short life was 7 seconds and I had to use RSP just to survive past 4 seconds.

if your so worried about faw get rsp or feedback pulse or maybe both, for every skill there are 2-4 skills that counter it, tons of techniques and play styles to get around it, its called tactics.

This has been discussed on the other threads as well. While these are counters to abilities, they are not on equal setting as FAW. FAW has a 5 seconds global cool down. Every other technique in game has a longer cool down period. So this technique can be used much more often then any of its counters. Tactics - Our PvP skills and tactics are more practiced then those that don't PvP and only play PvE. We know this skill is an issue because its thrown a major imbalance that negates all of our abilities in PvP. We would not ask for a change on this magnitude if something wasn't seriously wrong. NPC controlled ships have set abilities and no concept of timing these abilities for maximum effectiveness. So, saying counters will work (if your only a PvE'er type) does not account for the best AI in the game in "human players" in PvP.

this game falls under the same trap as wow, its mutli layered for full pve ( limited on kdf) and pvp. the only true way to balance skills in this enviroment is to have 2 entire different skill sets for both, on sto that equals 4 skill sets, npc's will never engage and react like real people as such skills are balanced on the middle ground between AI and RI so there will always be a grey area with some skills which is why we see the nerf and buff bat swing, but you cant please everyone and they know to much can break a skill

A thread about possibilities for them to move PVP to a different shard would be nice. I am against the different sets for the same technique cause first time PvE's going into pvp will be upset when their PvE skill does not work like it should. We want more people to join pvp. We do not want to shrink the number at all.

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Whoops, responding to White Knight I totally forgot to actualy add to the topic what I wanted to add.
I think the new FAW is a good thing.
Until now beam skills were not really that great, actually they looked nice but did little and that has changed now.
The problem with the combination of Excelsior and beam skills is IMO not a problem of the beam skills themselves, it lies in the overpoweredness of the Excelsior.

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mister_dee wrote:

Whoops, responding to White Knight I totally forgot to actualy add to the topic what I wanted to add.
I think the new FAW is a good thing.
Until now beam skills were not really that great, actually they looked nice but did little and that has changed now.
The problem with the combination of Excelsior and beam skills is IMO not a problem of the beam skills themselves, it lies in the overpoweredness of the Excelsior.

The new FAW is fine except the secondary target shouldn't take a 100 percent beam hit. 50 percent max on the second beam would suffice. Also the cool downs need to be extended because 5 seconds of cool down is ridiculous as no other skill in game has such a short CD.

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CrustyMac wrote: »

FAW is great for clearing the chaff. Not so great as an offensive weapon against the primary enemy. I find when I use it that my shots on my primary target are reduced significantly, while other targets receive some attention. The bottom line is that FAW is the antithesis of focus fire, spreading the damage around, but with no significant damage against primary targets. No nerf needed.

Play a carrier and try to make that sound convincing.

FAW is the new "must have" in pvp and almost EVERYONE has it, and it's making our pets rather pointless to spawn.

I don't mind that Cryptic give federation an ability to better kill pets with but this is overkill as basically every fed that has beams use it now.

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NO NERF needed or required. There are defenses for this. It just requires some thought and a little different build. Cryptic actualy made this wanted for a build other than PVE. Spam in PVP is a concern and this ability serves a purpose.

Please, leave it be.

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Sh1ngara wrote:

i personally dont see the issue with this, in pvp it hits your primarry target and another target per beam aslong as the targets are within the firing arc, its not like they fire a full 360 with faw, to even compare the damage from faw to something like an escort using heavy cannons with scatter shot would be about equal.

and cannons can be way more devestating then beams on an escort espec under the control of a tac with attack patterns etc and rapid fire they can chew through shields in seconds, and yes i know what peeps are going to say but they have a very small firing arc, that is true but they are also on ships that can move at incredible speeds and turn on a penny where ships that carry beams are slower moving and turn like an albatros, its swings and roundabouts.

if your so worried about faw get rsp or feedback pulse or maybe both, for every skill there are 2-4 skills that counter it, tons of techniques and play styles to get around it, its called tactics.

this game falls under the same trap as wow, its mutli layered for full pve ( limited on kdf) and pvp. the only true way to balance skills in this enviroment is to have 2 entire different skill sets for both, on sto that equals 4 skill sets, npc's will never engage and react like real people as such skills are balanced on the middle ground between AI and RI so there will always be a grey area with some skills which is why we see the nerf and buff bat swing, but you cant please everyone and they know to much can break a skill

I absolutely agree.

The best thing would be to actualy create seperate skilltrees for PvE and PvP.

I am as a cruiser captain and non PvP player am very happy with the changes the devs did with FAW and i wouln't like to see that changed again, only because of some PvP players that are not happy with it. (sorry to say that)


Live long and prosper.

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Treagersama wrote: »

Annnnnd this is exactly what happens when devs cater to the demands of the player base...

Complain about pet/mine/tric spam...
Devs fix.
Complain about the ineffectiveness of Fire at Will...
Devs fix.
Complain about Carriers...
Devs fix.
Complain about Gravity Well...
Devs fix.

And in every single one of these cases, the 'fix' just ended up making MORE people complain! :rolleyes:

So when do the devs take matters into their own hands and adjust the game in a way that just MAKES SENSE instead of changing the game to appease those that incessantly complain?

I do so agree. QA needs to thoroughly check powers for balance (which includes checking for reasonable counters to debuffs and the like). Then, if the mechanics are solid, let the playerbase either LEARN the mechanics...or stop PVPing.

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Separating skills for PVP and PVE is simultaneously complicated and lazy while ultimately likely to only do a disservice to the community as a whole. While BFAW certainly is effective as a counter too spam, "fixing" one problem while introducing yet another is counter productive.

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Clearly forum staff considers this to be a PVP only issue since it's been moved back to the basement, lol. Probably better off anyway since the conversation can continue to take place amongst the parties who have a clue while they are continually ignored:o.

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Pretty much.

FAW has so many problems.

*shakes head*

I'm not even sure where to start detailing them at this point. If they'd just listen to the testers on tribble maybe this TRIBBLE wouldn't keep happening.

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Not sure why the moderators moved this thread here, especially with all the FAW threads already on the PvP forum. But makes me wonder if they are paying attention to this new problem or not.

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Azurian wrote: »

Not sure why the moderators moved this thread here, especially with all the FAW threads already on the PvP forum. But makes me wonder if they are paying attention to this new problem or not.

Because its a pvp problem that's why they moved it, I also see no problem with it I say keep it the way it is.

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It's not a PvP problem it affects PvE too because it makes an already PvE already easier. It just more noticiable in PvP because its other players who are on the receiving end.

Beam mechanics are very easy to exploit, like stacking DEM with FAW for a more powerful punch. Or combinging Beam abilities with Cannon Escorts to disable shields for an easier kill with cannons.


Cryptic has opened too many doors in which we are really starting to see the broken mechanics of STO.

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FAW reduces the effectiveness of DEM by a lot.

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Azurian wrote: »

Not sure why the moderators moved this thread here, especially with all the FAW threads already on the PvP forum.

Probably because you don't hear any Romulans or Hirogen complaining about it.

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I really appreciate what it's done for cruisers actually. Before, a DPS cruiser meant that you could annoy people enough to get them to target you...leading to a painful death because you don't have as many heals as a tank cruiser. Now, cruisers are devastating, as they should be. An escort is equally devastating, but at least now they have to fight smart. And escort and cruiser pair are now REALLY powerful, and that's exactly how they should be.

CrustyMac wrote: »

Not so great as an offensive weapon against the primary enemy

This isn't necessarily true...

I've been using a cannon escort build for a while, but I recently changed to a fire at will boat. Because it increases the number of shots fired, when used against a single target it does 2 things: First, it increases the damage you do to the primary target, because more shots = more damage. Second, it clears out any and all spam your target releases, though pets like the MVAE's parts and the Galaxy saucer tend to take longer to wear down. FAW 3 plus BO 3 can take out anyone's shields, and a few hits later plus a few torps means most targets go boom real quick.

It has effectively made mines useless...the amount of times it fires is completely absurd. For instance, when playing the Deferi dailies, and you get the Kelvani Belt mission where the Breen lay a trap for you, the transphasic mines literally disappear in 2 seconds if you hit FAW 3. It's an amazing spam killer...almost too amazing .

Should it be nerfed a tiny bit? Yeah...but not too much. The mechanic is great now...concentrate most of your firepower on your primary target, and deliver damage to everything else in short bursts.

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BluerockBeing04 wrote: »

I really appreciate what it's done for cruisers actually. Before, a DPS cruiser meant that you could annoy people enough to get them to target you...leading to a painful death because you don't have as many heals as a tank cruiser. Now, cruisers are devastating, as they should be. An escort is equally devastating, but at least now they have to fight smart. And escort and cruiser pair are now REALLY powerful, and that's exactly how they should be.

From what your describing, answer me one question.

What is the reason to fly the escort? Would 2 cruisers not be more powerful?

It sounds to me like the cruiser with faw has all the advantages of the escort with NONE of the drawbacks.... am I missing something?

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Husanak wrote: »

From what your describing, answer me one question.

What is the reason to fly the escort? Would 2 cruisers not be more powerful?

It sounds to me like the cruiser with faw has all the advantages of the escort with NONE of the drawbacks.... am I missing something?

Last thing this game needed was another cruiser buff.