2a) Damage should be 20%, 15% % 10% for versions 3,2 & 1 respectively and drain remains same.
or
2b) Damage should be current but 2nd AoE pulse should have no damage boost and drain remains the same.
3) Cooldown and GCD longer times (TBD amount 5-10 sec for both?)
2a) Damage should be 20%, 15% % 10% for versions 3,2 & 1 respectively and drain remains same.
or
2b) Damage should be current but 2nd AoE pulse should have no damage boost and drain remains the same.
3) Cooldown and GCD longer times (TBD amount 5-10 sec for both?)
does this about sum up all the changes?
I would be in favor of longer cooldowns and maybe a damage cap per pulse not to exceed 150% combined damage. So if beam 1 hits for 100 second beam can only hit for 50.
2a) Damage should be 20%, 15% % 10% for versions 3,2 & 1 respectively and drain remains same.
or
2b) Damage should be current but 2nd AoE pulse should have no damage boost and drain remains the same.
3) Cooldown and GCD longer times (TBD amount 5-10 sec for both?)
does this about sum up all the changes?
Ouch, this would kill FAW permanently... even pre-patch FAW3 gave a total of 140% and was used by noone...
I would be in favor of longer cooldowns and maybe a damage cap per pulse not to exceed 150% combined damage. So if beam 1 hits for 100 second beam can only hit for 50.
I like this, and it should also drain 50% more power. And if you only had one target, that target should recieve all the damage. And 3 should be a Cmdr slot.
For my part, I guess I won't do much PvP, if any at all, until the current FAW issue is fixed. Only way to succeed is running FAW cruisers. I triied that for ONE match, and I was bored to tears.
I considered doing this, and I might still do it, but there are severe limitations with the Foundry to making anything that exceeds a new Arena map. Maybe a new Capture & HOld would be possible.
But my Freighter Convoy idea? It fails because I can't have the freighters do anything useful. WE still cannot define a path for NPC vessels, we can just say them "wander around".
So all I'd be doing is placing some art assets, but representing the mission logic? Not possible...
For what it's worth though, I thought your various proposals on the PvP forums were organized and in-depth though. It's definitely something the devs can at the very least pick up and tinker around with.
I can't say this as a fact, but I do believe part of the reason CSF and CRF start at Lt. was to balance out that they don't have a power drain cost associated with them. If BO is the equilv to CRF, than it would make sense that it has to pay something for its boost in damage output. Thus, I argue if you move any of the beam abilities up the Bridge Office chain, than the equilv cannon skill needs to gain a power drain penalty.
Honestly though, I think a reasonable compromise would be to do the following:
- Modify the global cooldown to 25 (maybe 30 making multiple copies useless) or decrease the duration to 10 seconds.
- Make vessels that decloak not targetable by secondary beams for 0.5 (if possible, random 0.25 - 1.0) seconds.
- Increase damage of primary target (5/8/12%), decrease damage of secondary targets by 50/40/30%
- Beams not in the arc of the primary target continue to shoot two beams, but both beams concider their targets 'secondary'
I don't think moving the FAW up one rank will help much.
Excelsiors will still be running 2 copies, and fleet-escorts can also be good beamboats. And the damage difference between levels is also very small now, since the real bonus is the x2 damage from the secondary beam
I find running 2 copies is wasteful. I run just 1 copy and ATD, and a tac team.
Variety is the spice of life.
If everyone thought like you it wouldn't be a problem but most BFaW ships do not therefore slot 2 copies of the skill to have maximum uptime without cooldown issues.
If everyone thought like you it wouldn't be a problem but most BFaW ships do not therefore slot 2 copies of the skill to have maximum uptime without cooldown issues.
The fix would then be to increase the global CD
10 sec duration, 20 sec global, 90 sec personal CD
10 sec duration, 20 sec global, 90 sec personal CD
Or the Power drain to make it less DPS effivient to cycle FAW as one's WP will stay too low on average.
The issue is not so much FAW itself but the way in which it is used in certain situations.
This reminds me of WarHammer Fantasy and the differences in play style between the British stores and chapters versus the American one's. Same rules in each country but way differing philosphy's in thier use and playstyle.
I don't think moving the FAW up one rank will help much.
Excelsiors will still be running 2 copies, and fleet-escorts can also be good beamboats. And the damage difference between levels is also very small now, since the real bonus is the x2 damage from the secondary beam
Excelsiors would be likely to run two copies, or if they did it would involve losing DPS elsewhere. APB and APO are both really common on Excelsiors, and they'd be in direct competition with FAW.
On a premade team I'd pretty much require an Excelsior to run APB, because using it with FAW lets them keep pretty much the whole enemy team debuffed. If I were into dictating how other people play that is.
In solo/PUG play I still really like APO, since it helps with manueverability and shaking off tractor beams. I'm not sure it's "better" than FAW, but the way I run an Excelsior I wouldn't go without it.
Escorts would be able to run 2 copies of FAW without problems, but running beams instead of cannons is still a trade-off.
I could see toning down damage or lengthening the CD in addition to bumping it up a rank, but moving it up a rank would definitely help keep cruisers from training it, which seems to be the biggest problem.
Excelsiors would be likely to run two copies, or if they did it would involve losing DPS elsewhere. APB and APO are both really common on Excelsiors, and they'd be in direct competition with FAW.
On a premade team I'd pretty much require an Excelsior to run APB, because using it with FAW lets them keep pretty much the whole enemy team debuffed. If I were into dictating how other people play that is.
In solo/PUG play I still really like APO, since it helps with manueverability and shaking off tractor beams. I'm not sure it's "better" than FAW, but the way I run an Excelsior I wouldn't go without it.
Escorts would be able to run 2 copies of FAW without problems, but running beams instead of cannons is still a trade-off.
I could see toning down damage or lengthening the CD in addition to bumping it up a rank, but moving it up a rank would definitely help keep cruisers from training it, which seems to be the biggest problem.
YOUR WALL OF TEXT CRITS FOR OVER 9000
First of all, I am currently flying my Excelsior, but only running 1 copy of FAW. I prefer to have APD on, as it is a GREAT way for a healer such as myself to increase the resistances of those I am healing, while making it easier for those attacking my "patient" to be taken down.
I tried 2 FAW's and found that the lack of flexibility in that build was just not worth it. The primary reason I run FAW is to get rid of spam. Photonic fleets and mines and fighers have made the game frustrating at times and I am going to get rid of all I can.
As I said before in another post,.. BFAW or BMined...and I mean it.
Now, as far as cannon abilities go, I have been stating for a LONG time that all cannon skills need to be dropped 1 level. CRF and CSV need to start at tier 1 and move up. Frankly that is fair. I don't fly an escort.. well..not this week anyway , but I am all for a change like this. I am more about LIFTING UP other powers as opposed to nerfing. Moving CRF and CSV down to a starting level of ensign would be great for escorts in general.
There is something that is not being discussed here .. very much if at all. It is the captain's abilities that make this power shine.
For example,.. I can do pretty close to the damage of a tac, IF.. IF I run an 8 beam broadside and use EPS 3 and Nadion inversion,.. alternating them as needed.
That is with or without FAW. Now,.. WITH FAW and chaining those abilities, it is frankly devastating. This is really no different than if a tac did a 5 beam broadside with APA. All I am doing, as an engineer, is playing to the strengths that my class has. There are many ways for Engineers to do MASSIVE damage,... if you think outside the box and play to your strengths.. not what common conventions would tell you.
I get tells all the time after matches, asking what I am doing. There is the experience factor. I mean, I have 78000 pvp tokens currently.. and if you figure 30 a match on average,... that is 2600 matches at least... for this one character, not counting my 2 klingons, science and tac officer.
Some things have to be learned with experience and cannot be explained well. Positioning, picking the right target, knowing when to run and when to stay... all of these are experience based.
The thing I find is that, as a pvp'er, I adapt. When something new comes out, I adapt... or try to. In season 1, where you could 1 shot a cruiser, I had scores of 67-0. I survived and thrived.
It seems that sometimes the community here is not even willing to try to adapt. Drain weapon power, scramble the guy. Common, let's start using other powers more (except scramble sensors.. because I don't think that is physically possible to have more of that). Just as a tank, I have to counter massive damage by defensive means.... other classes need to start considering the same. Think how to add some more defense to counter these things in your build.
Too many people are just focused on doing as much damage as possible to the exclusion of any other factor.
There are so many ways to shut down a BFAW guy,.. but if you are just focused on just pew pew'ing.. then you are not going to win as much.
Adapt.. give it a few weeks and see what you can come up with. The power change has been out only a few days. I am not saying it should not change. But let's give it some more playtime and actually TRY different ideas before making any other changes...
except the change with CRF and CSV.. let's give that to cannon users today
How about adjusting FAW, where its mainly targets NPCs than PCs? Just a thought.
But right now, FAW stacked with DEM and Pattern Alpha is extremely lame.
Your idea just critted for 42624 (30077)!
ahh... If the second attack would only go for NPCs... that would be awsome! Not only would it not be useful for melting down enemy teams, but it would be even more effective against spam!
ahh... If the second attack would only go for NPCs... that would be awsome! Not only would it not be useful for melting down enemy teams, but it would be even more effective against spam!
This would be gold!
It would stll be OP in PvE. But that seems to be what the PvP crowd wants anyway..
BFAW seems to be OP not merely in terms of PvP or PvE, but in terms of powers. No power is that effective now at the same rank.
Of course we are always stronger then the NPCs... That's normal. (For any game, really.)
I was defending FAW, but I'm starting to be convinced of this as well. We have other powerful AOE abilitiies, but they start at LT, and have longer cooldowns.
Bumping FAW up a rank would likely be difficult, it would involve changing thousands of existing BOffs. It would probably be fair to switch FAW 1 over to BOv 1, FAW 2 to FAW 1, and FAW 3 to FAW 2, but I'm not sure Cryptic is able to do that. And if it even caused skill points to be lost from existing BOffs (like their 9 points in FAW 3 become 1 point in FAW 2) it would cause a hew and cry from the PvE crowd such as has never been heard before.
(Honestly, if any company plans to have both PvE and PvP in the same game, PvE needs to be mostly ignored when it comes to balance. PvE encounters can be balanced by adjusting the enemies, but PvE concerns often TRIBBLE up PvP.)
(Honestly, if any company plans to have both PvE and PvP in the same game, PvE needs to be mostly ignored when it comes to balance. PvE encounters can be balanced by adjusting the enemies, but PvE concerns often TRIBBLE up PvP.)
I asked in another thread and hadn't seen a reply. So I'll ask here as well, has anyone tried FBP/APO/RSP type of combo (I'm not spec'd for that and tbo dont feel like respecing atm)? I know in the past FBP was a counter to auto fire type skills and I'm assuming APO would boost it's damage return and RSP would help survive as they would be autoing you and couldnt change targets (btw could use an anti-tac redistribution to go with this skill).
I asked in another thread and hadn't seen a reply. So I'll ask here as well, has anyone tried FBP/APO/RSP type of combo (I'm not spec'd for that and tbo dont feel like respecing atm)? I know in the past FBP was a counter to auto fire type skills and I'm assuming APO would boost it's damage return and RSP would help survive as they would be autoing you and couldnt change targets (btw could use an anti-tac redistribution to go with this skill).
I use FBP3, and it is nice to push a cruiser with FAW away with TBR3 then activate FBP3 and he cant stop attacking me. Anti proton beam boat are the best to do this to. You have to know FBP is a min CD so it cant not be a full counter to BFAW
SS is a huge counter to BFAW, I was unknowingly thrown into a set up match with 2 BFAW teams but one had SS and when they spam it, the definetion burn was made, not just 5 BFAW hit us but 9. Which was so op it wasnt even funny. I could feel the burn on me.
I use FBP3, and it is nice to push a cruiser with FAW away with TBR3 then activate FBP3 and he cant stop attacking me. Anti proton beam boat are the best to do this to. You have to know FBP is a min CD so it cant not be a full counter to BFAW
SS is a huge counter to BFAW, I was unknowingly thrown into a set up match with 2 BFAW teams but one had SS and when they spam it, the definetion burn was made, not just 5 BFAW hit us but 9. Which was so op it wasnt even funny. I could feel the burn on me.
Thanks for relpy. I mostly PvP in BoP, so I most of my build options are around hit and run tactics. My thought was against FAW opening spam lead w/FPB3 and AP damage boost (still haven't heard if APs boost this skill or not), after switch to RSP while applying some burst damage than running after 20-30 sec or so in total (may use PH to shorten the cooldowns).
Yeah I had assumed SS was a hard counter, but trying to see if there are a larger variety of counters out there than people may have tried/posted to this point.
FYI, I tried FBP III w/APO & Aux @ 109 and items to boost FBP. The damage return seemed laughable 2% (it went from 94% to 92% hull).
I'm falling into the crowd that feels this is OP for team play as it is looking like S.S. is the only decent counter from the few things I've tried. Even w/o being directly targeted in BoP with a 79% defense rating 90+ shield power rating not coming out of b.c. (ie shields start up) vs a team of FaW the survival time is low enough a decent amount of time for applying DPS or applying CC or applying heals to allies hasn't really seemed feasible.
I asked in another thread and hadn't seen a reply. So I'll ask here as well, has anyone tried FBP/APO/RSP type of combo (I'm not spec'd for that and tbo dont feel like respecing atm)? I know in the past FBP was a counter to auto fire type skills and I'm assuming APO would boost it's damage return and RSP would help survive as they would be autoing you and couldnt change targets (btw could use an anti-tac redistribution to go with this skill).
APO doesnt boost FBP anymore, nor does any Tac captain skills.. Besides, if you wanted to use APO, youd be limited to a MVA or BOP, both are relatively fragile, and will melt, before their feedback even threatens the FAW spammers.
Only way I can imagine countering FAW teams atm, is to keep them constantly scrambled with SS3, another skill that needs to be changed.
Comments
1) FAW 1 = Lieutenant, FAW 2 = LTC & FAW 3 = Cmdr slots
2a) Damage should be 20%, 15% % 10% for versions 3,2 & 1 respectively and drain remains same.
or
2b) Damage should be current but 2nd AoE pulse should have no damage boost and drain remains the same.
3) Cooldown and GCD longer times (TBD amount 5-10 sec for both?)
does this about sum up all the changes?
I would be in favor of longer cooldowns and maybe a damage cap per pulse not to exceed 150% combined damage. So if beam 1 hits for 100 second beam can only hit for 50.
Ouch, this would kill FAW permanently... even pre-patch FAW3 gave a total of 140% and was used by noone...
I like this, and it should also drain 50% more power. And if you only had one target, that target should recieve all the damage. And 3 should be a Cmdr slot.
For my part, I guess I won't do much PvP, if any at all, until the current FAW issue is fixed. Only way to succeed is running FAW cruisers. I triied that for ONE match, and I was bored to tears.
For what it's worth though, I thought your various proposals on the PvP forums were organized and in-depth though. It's definitely something the devs can at the very least pick up and tinker around with.
Honestly though, I think a reasonable compromise would be to do the following:
- Modify the global cooldown to 25 (maybe 30 making multiple copies useless) or decrease the duration to 10 seconds.
- Make vessels that decloak not targetable by secondary beams for 0.5 (if possible, random 0.25 - 1.0) seconds.
- Increase damage of primary target (5/8/12%), decrease damage of secondary targets by 50/40/30%
- Beams not in the arc of the primary target continue to shoot two beams, but both beams concider their targets 'secondary'
Excelsiors will still be running 2 copies, and fleet-escorts can also be good beamboats. And the damage difference between levels is also very small now, since the real bonus is the x2 damage from the secondary beam
Variety is the spice of life.
If everyone thought like you it wouldn't be a problem but most BFaW ships do not therefore slot 2 copies of the skill to have maximum uptime without cooldown issues.
The fix would then be to increase the global CD
10 sec duration, 20 sec global, 90 sec personal CD
Or the Power drain to make it less DPS effivient to cycle FAW as one's WP will stay too low on average.
The issue is not so much FAW itself but the way in which it is used in certain situations.
This reminds me of WarHammer Fantasy and the differences in play style between the British stores and chapters versus the American one's. Same rules in each country but way differing philosphy's in thier use and playstyle.
On a premade team I'd pretty much require an Excelsior to run APB, because using it with FAW lets them keep pretty much the whole enemy team debuffed. If I were into dictating how other people play that is.
In solo/PUG play I still really like APO, since it helps with manueverability and shaking off tractor beams. I'm not sure it's "better" than FAW, but the way I run an Excelsior I wouldn't go without it.
Escorts would be able to run 2 copies of FAW without problems, but running beams instead of cannons is still a trade-off.
I could see toning down damage or lengthening the CD in addition to bumping it up a rank, but moving it up a rank would definitely help keep cruisers from training it, which seems to be the biggest problem.
YOUR WALL OF TEXT CRITS FOR OVER 9000
First of all, I am currently flying my Excelsior, but only running 1 copy of FAW. I prefer to have APD on, as it is a GREAT way for a healer such as myself to increase the resistances of those I am healing, while making it easier for those attacking my "patient" to be taken down.
I tried 2 FAW's and found that the lack of flexibility in that build was just not worth it. The primary reason I run FAW is to get rid of spam. Photonic fleets and mines and fighers have made the game frustrating at times and I am going to get rid of all I can.
As I said before in another post,.. BFAW or BMined...and I mean it.
Now, as far as cannon abilities go, I have been stating for a LONG time that all cannon skills need to be dropped 1 level. CRF and CSV need to start at tier 1 and move up. Frankly that is fair. I don't fly an escort.. well..not this week anyway
There is something that is not being discussed here .. very much if at all. It is the captain's abilities that make this power shine.
For example,.. I can do pretty close to the damage of a tac, IF.. IF I run an 8 beam broadside and use EPS 3 and Nadion inversion,.. alternating them as needed.
That is with or without FAW. Now,.. WITH FAW and chaining those abilities, it is frankly devastating. This is really no different than if a tac did a 5 beam broadside with APA. All I am doing, as an engineer, is playing to the strengths that my class has. There are many ways for Engineers to do MASSIVE damage,... if you think outside the box and play to your strengths.. not what common conventions would tell you.
I get tells all the time after matches, asking what I am doing. There is the experience factor. I mean, I have 78000 pvp tokens currently.. and if you figure 30 a match on average,... that is 2600 matches at least... for this one character, not counting my 2 klingons, science and tac officer.
Some things have to be learned with experience and cannot be explained well. Positioning, picking the right target, knowing when to run and when to stay... all of these are experience based.
The thing I find is that, as a pvp'er, I adapt. When something new comes out, I adapt... or try to. In season 1, where you could 1 shot a cruiser, I had scores of 67-0. I survived and thrived.
It seems that sometimes the community here is not even willing to try to adapt. Drain weapon power, scramble the guy. Common, let's start using other powers more (except scramble sensors.. because I don't think that is physically possible to have more of that
Too many people are just focused on doing as much damage as possible to the exclusion of any other factor.
There are so many ways to shut down a BFAW guy,.. but if you are just focused on just pew pew'ing.. then you are not going to win as much.
Adapt.. give it a few weeks and see what you can come up with. The power change has been out only a few days. I am not saying it should not change. But let's give it some more playtime and actually TRY different ideas before making any other changes...
except the change with CRF and CSV.. let's give that to cannon users today
But right now, FAW stacked with DEM and Pattern Alpha is extremely lame.
YOUR WALL OF TEXT CRITS FOR OVER 10000
It seems I only comment on your stuff with Smart A** stuff.
Your idea just critted for 42624 (30077)!
ahh... If the second attack would only go for NPCs... that would be awsome! Not only would it not be useful for melting down enemy teams, but it would be even more effective against spam!
This would be gold!
I'm used to it. That is the nature of forum boards.
I could type "Orange" and it would get a Smart A** comment
and what is not OP in PvE?
anyway, noone will complain if they burn the borg faster. (except those who live to complain ofc
Of course we are always stronger then the NPCs... That's normal. (For any game, really.)
Bumping FAW up a rank would likely be difficult, it would involve changing thousands of existing BOffs. It would probably be fair to switch FAW 1 over to BOv 1, FAW 2 to FAW 1, and FAW 3 to FAW 2, but I'm not sure Cryptic is able to do that. And if it even caused skill points to be lost from existing BOffs (like their 9 points in FAW 3 become 1 point in FAW 2) it would cause a hew and cry from the PvE crowd such as has never been heard before.
(Honestly, if any company plans to have both PvE and PvP in the same game, PvE needs to be mostly ignored when it comes to balance. PvE encounters can be balanced by adjusting the enemies, but PvE concerns often TRIBBLE up PvP.)
THANK YOU!! I've been saying this all along.
I use FBP3, and it is nice to push a cruiser with FAW away with TBR3 then activate FBP3 and he cant stop attacking me. Anti proton beam boat are the best to do this to. You have to know FBP is a min CD so it cant not be a full counter to BFAW
SS is a huge counter to BFAW, I was unknowingly thrown into a set up match with 2 BFAW teams but one had SS and when they spam it, the definetion burn was made, not just 5 BFAW hit us but 9. Which was so op it wasnt even funny. I could feel the burn on me.
Thanks for relpy. I mostly PvP in BoP, so I most of my build options are around hit and run tactics. My thought was against FAW opening spam lead w/FPB3 and AP damage boost (still haven't heard if APs boost this skill or not), after switch to RSP while applying some burst damage than running after 20-30 sec or so in total (may use PH to shorten the cooldowns).
Yeah I had assumed SS was a hard counter, but trying to see if there are a larger variety of counters out there than people may have tried/posted to this point.
Looked more like BO3 to me. :P
I'm falling into the crowd that feels this is OP for team play as it is looking like S.S. is the only decent counter from the few things I've tried. Even w/o being directly targeted in BoP with a 79% defense rating 90+ shield power rating not coming out of b.c. (ie shields start up) vs a team of FaW the survival time is low enough a decent amount of time for applying DPS or applying CC or applying heals to allies hasn't really seemed feasible.
APO doesnt boost FBP anymore, nor does any Tac captain skills.. Besides, if you wanted to use APO, youd be limited to a MVA or BOP, both are relatively fragile, and will melt, before their feedback even threatens the FAW spammers.
Only way I can imagine countering FAW teams atm, is to keep them constantly scrambled with SS3, another skill that needs to be changed.