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Tired of ships on the C-Store

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    IMO, the C-Store ships are optional and don't change the outcome of the game. Out of all the C-store ships I have, I still come back to the my Tier 5 retrofit ships as the C-store ones are just novelty.

    If you don't have the disposable income to buy from the C-Store then I can understand the mentality of, "They have one, so why can't I?". The C-store ships are basically alternate ships for you to use if you want to. You are at no disadvantage because you choose not to spend your money, or direct your time elsewhere.

    Every MMO has aspects of its play that certain people can not attain whether it is due to time constraints or financially, or pure justifiably. If everyone had access to everything there would be no exclusivity and the value of the item would be lower.

    In the grander view of things, if they lowered the price or the C-store ships and lowered the ingame emblem requirement, just as many people would be complaining that they want the difference in money and emblems back. Others will complain that it is too easy to get now and that its taken the fun out of having the best stuff.

    I think its perfectly fine for a playable view. They are easy to get, time is all it takes. From a corporate point of view, money that we do inject into Cryptic is helping pay for new content and our wonderful Dev's wages. Naturally a portion will go to Atari and other vendors, but if we stop paying the money we do, the game would not be as viable and might not be self-supportive.

    C-store helps keep the game afloat and helps pay for other content. I have no problems with paying for C-Store stuff and its a treat to get something nice. I do it about once every few months, probably about the same amount of time it would take if I was grinding.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    This is where the Star Trek IP really pays of for cryptic. There is this huge crowd of people who will pay anything for whatever has a Star Trek sticker on it and cryptic is cashing in on them, massively. Every two weeks, like clockwork, the company releases an other little gadget for around 10$ on average, and people buy it, they line up to shell out the cash. They even supply the company with more ideas on what they would pay even more cash on top of their subscription.

    I agree, as well as with a lot of the points you made in your post. It's sad, but unfortunately STO currently offers the most immerse Star Trek gaming experience. It's a good game, but it feels too expensive with all the C-Store items getting added.

    I have more suitable alternative for all the money going into C-Store Ships or the "Ship" budget in general:

    Fix the current model errors in ships like the Prometheus, add customization options to ships that people have already bought like the D'Kyr, and design more Klingon vessels to bring them up to par with the Fed. All without a single ship C-Store release.

    If I have to pay $15 dollars for a ship which was built over 2 months worth of budget, release them twice a year or so instead, and make them cheaper and obtainable via in-game only.

    Without including the Galaxy X or any "costumes" like the Numbus or the Vorcha, it will cost $200 to buy every SHIP in the C-Store. Fed and Klingon. 160000 Atari points. That is JUST the ships. I think that is too much
    destiny42 wrote: »
    C-store helps keep the game afloat and helps pay for other content.
    We're already paying for said content. It's called a subscription. And I'm all for having the C-Store, but these ships are not just cosmetic, they're functional in-game items (Virtual items which we do not own, but that's another argument). By all means put stuff up there once in a while, but not every single new ship you design.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    thun712 wrote: »
    We're already paying for said content. It's called a subscription.

    And what about those who purchased a Lifetime sub?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Hate to tell you but for me personally, your assesement is entirely wrong. I fully understand what the C-Store is. I have not bought every item in the C-Store, nor do I ever plan to. I also fully understand that Cryptic is unlikely to to earn any further income from a lifetime subscriber such as myself unless they have a C-Store.

    and that's the crux of it. C- Store is aimed at the lifers and to a lesser extent, die hard trekkies. Cryptic are very well aware that this game has deficiencies. For a lot of people who pay a monthly subscription there just isn't enough to it to justify a long term rolling sub. They themselves tell us that it's for the casual player, and it is.

    As such, they are left mostly with lifers, most of which have already paid long ago. The only way they can make any serious amount of money on a monthly basis is through c-store.

    From a buisness point of view, it makes sense, here you have a group of people who clearly have a large amount of spare capital floating around,(proved by them sinking in that amount of money into a game of this calibre, especially those who bought at launch) or are devout trekkies . Unfortunately as time goes on, these groups are the only ones left, and in the long term won't provide the numbers needed for the books if the game remained sub only.

    The C-Store, has always been a sticking point, it will never go away, but I do see it getting worse. As I recall, when the game first launched C- Store had pretty much nothing in it, and people were worried about what it may be used for. The usual response was for 'Cosmetic' stuff and account management only. Hate to bust the bubble, but anything that has a special ability, or an in-game mechanic of any sort, isn't merely cosmetic.

    Aaand finally, the question of grinding or buying? if your a Subber, just quit for those two months it would take to grind. You won't miss much, and any new content they do add will at least give you a few good hours of playtime to catch up when you do get back. Hence you can buy the ship, get better gameplay (for a while), dodge the grind and possibly save yourself a few bucks long term in the process. Simples.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    And what about those who purchased a Lifetime sub?
    You guys made an even bigger commitment via a one time fee. But what about those lifetime members that buy from the C-Store? They're essentially paying a subscription anyway. I think you guys get the even shorter end of the stick.
    Hate to bust the bubble, but anything that has a special ability, or an in-game mechanic of any sort, isn't merely cosmetic.

    Which is every ship they've released
    if your a Subber, just quit for those two months it would take to grind. You won't miss much, and any new content they do add will at least give you a few good hours of playtime to catch up when you do get back. Hence you can buy the ship, get better gameplay (for a while), dodge the grind and possibly save yourself a few bucks long term in the process.

    Sadly, that is a very viable solution for anyone personally, but it doesn't really solve the issue. Besides, a year's worth of subscription = $180 and The total price of ships = $200. Should I just quit playing so I can save money to buy the C-Store items for the game I don't play? Catch-22 right there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    thun712 wrote: »
    You guys made an even bigger commitment via a one time fee. But what about those lifetime members that buy from the C-Store? They're essentially paying a subscription anyway. I think you guys get the even shorter end of the stick.

    You are still not getting it.

    After a given length of time, the intial investment of the Lifetime sub is used up. How is the game supposed to generate income from those who purchased a Lifetime subscription at launch? How is it going to gain income from those same people a year from now? 2 years from now? The answer; C-Store purchases.

    That is what the C-Store is for.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    You are still not getting it.

    After a given length of time, the intial investment of the Lifetime sub is used up. How is the game supposed to generate income from those who purchased a Lifetime subscription at launch? How is it going to gain income from those same people a year from now? 2 years from now? The answer; C-Store purchases.

    That is what the C-Store is for.

    Ok, I see what you were trying to say. But I am not against the C-Store, that's not MY point. I am against functional Ship assets being placed on the C-Store. They can make sales by continuing to make avatar uniforms or alternate parts for the ships, but not the ships themselves.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    thun712 wrote: »
    Ok, I see what you were trying to say. But I am not against the C-Store, that's not MY point. I am against functional Ship assets being placed on the C-Store. They can make sales by continuing to make avatar uniforms or alternate parts for the ships, but not the ships themselves.

    The ships are really not any better than the free ones in the game though. It seems like you are trying to make them out to be something they are not. None of the are superweapons that are an order of magnitude more powerful than what exists in the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The ships are really not any better than the free ones in the game though. It seems like you are trying to make them out to be something they are not. None of the are superweapons that are an order of magnitude more powerful than what exists in the game.

    I understand that, but they are functional in-game assets. It is obvious that the intention is for them to be bought via the C-Store. It wasn't until recently that some of them even became available via emblems and even then they made them way overpriced.

    I am glad with the ships themselves, they're relatively balanced with the Free ones, it's the method by which they are offered that is the problem.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    thun712 wrote: »
    I understand that, but they are functional in-game assets.

    So are the Tribbles. So are the Borg Bridge Officers. So are the playable races.

    It is obvious that the intention is for them to be bought via the C-Store. It wasn't until recently that some of them even became available via emblems and even then they made them way overpriced.

    If an item costs $15 in the C-Store, you can be rest assured it is going to take the equivilant amount of in-game time (about 1 month - $15 sub fee - to grind 500 emblems) to earn it for emblems. This is not hard to figure out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    So are the Tribbles. So are the Borg Bridge Officers. So are the playable races.
    Yes, but a lot of these were pre-order or Tribble test bonuses and make some sense that they can be later added to the Store. Playable races is more sketchy since you would have to start a new character in order to take advantage of it, whereas ships can be use by anyone of that rank and faction.
    If an item costs $15 in the C-Store, you can be rest assured it is going to take the equivilant amount of in-game time (about 1 month - $15 sub fee - to grind 500 emblems) to earn it for emblems. This is not hard to figure out.
    I agree, but they shouldn't cost $15. Price for both in-game and C-Store credits should be lowered. Once again, this is not the business model for a subscription game, this is the model for Free to play.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    thun712 wrote: »
    I agree, but they shouldn't cost $15. Price for both in-game and C-Store credits should be lowered.

    Without knowing the amount of time and money that went into them, it is difficult to say what the price should or should not be. You do have the option to not spend the money or time to grind emblems for them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Without knowing the amount of time and money that went into them, it is difficult to say what the price should or should not be. You do have the option to not spend the money or time to grind emblems for them.
    I don't feel it's fair when budget is being used for things that aren't available to everyone freely. If they had already fixed all model glitches and added enough of the Klingon ships parts, then MAYBE it can be justified.

    How come other MMOs do fine with just their regular subscriptions? All the ship content can be considered an "expansion" but when you factor in that it costs $200, it is too overpriced. There are sufficient MMO examples that although do not have a weekly episode, they have enough material to keep players doing something. Then every so often an expansion is released that can greatly increase gametime with more content. By comparison from the MMO giant, Wow. The Cataclysm expansion has added a significant amount of changes to the game.

    To access new levels and zones you are charged $40, that's it. By comparison, $200 for ships.

    I love what Cryptic has done with the game and FREE updates that we have received. If they are spending the time already to create these game assets, why are we overcharged for it? It is not feasible for the casual player to have to grind for a year to access things that should be accessible to begin with. What Cryotic has been giving us is an expansion to STO. Just instead of offering it all in one go, it trickles over time. I am fine with that. Just don't charge me extra for it!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I can mention at least one other game (that I personally know of and play) that is subscription model but offers additional "packs" through a cash store. These packs are (usually) mostly additional cosmetic options, costume bits and the like, but with one or two functional bits - new powers that are neat and/or convenient, but not overwhelming or vital (much like, oh, the Excelsior's transwarp capability). The devs of that game are on record as saying that the additional income from these packs lets them hire more people, and get new content for all players out faster, than they would from subscriptions alone.

    tl;dr: sub games can have cash shops too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Ill start buying from the c-store again when i see at least a single new ship or uniform piece appear ingame that doesnt require either c-store or emblem grinding....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    thun712 wrote: »
    I don't feel it's fair when budget is being used for things that aren't available to everyone freely.

    You can get all but 1 ship from the C-Store for free with emblems in the game.
    HF_Mudd wrote:
    tl;dr: sub games can have cash shops too.

    Glad you posted that link to CoH. It is true that the Devs there have posted on numerous occasions how their "booster packs' have helped drive most all the updates to the game. I think a lot of people are still under the misconception that their $15 a month goes a lot further than it really does.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    You can get all but 1 ship from the C-Store for free with emblems in the game.
    As stated before, not until after a massive grind that is very unfeasible for a casual player.
    Glad you posted that link to CoH. It is true that the Devs there have posted on numerous occasions how their "booster packs' have helped drive most all the updates to the game. I think a lot of people are still under the misconception that their $15 a month goes a lot further than it really does.
    Well, it is that plus the money from costume pieces which I think are fine to have, plus the $200+ dollars from you lifetime members. There are even some MMOs that do not have a monthly fee, you get additional content as an expansion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The only problem I had with the C-store was when ships were not available for ingame credits, that bothered me a bit but now that they are available I really don't care that it takes a month of grinding to acquire them.

    I am disappointed that the devs have seemed to abandoned the Nebula and Excelsior concept of having a lower tiered free ship and a higher tiered C-store/emblem ship. That was a good idea and added diversity and options while leveling up.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Tikonov wrote:
    Ill start buying from the c-store again when i see at least a single new ship or uniform piece appear ingame that doesnt require either c-store or emblem grinding....

    Which will probably be when they raise the level cap. Of course then I'm betting you'll add XP grinding to your list, but I could be wrong.

    What I really find interesting is that it seems to be the players who put the most value in these ships that complain the most about their cost in money and/or grind. I'm usually like, oh another ship variation - meh. But, what the heck it's cheap and I do really like playing this game so if I buy it, it'll support Cryptic to keep adding to the game and maybe one of my characters will try it and like it. Of course, this difference is why people study both marketing and economics. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Fenrir1536 wrote: »
    I am disappointed that the devs have seemed to abandoned the Nebula and Excelsior concept of having a lower tiered free ship and a higher tiered C-store/emblem ship. That was a good idea and added diversity and options while leveling up.

    Yes I agree. Make the content more available. I specially think that Klingon players should get lowered tiered version of the Nausi-Gorn-Orion ships. That and do not add the MVAM as yet another ship. Let me upgrade the one I already have and don't charge 500 emblems for the console. What was the point of it being a console then?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    thun712 wrote: »
    As stated before, not until after a massive grind that is very unfeasible for a casual player.

    That simply is not true.

    I am a casual player and I can easily obtain 15 emblems a day doing daily missions alone. You can obtain even more emblems each day if you throw in a Fleet Action or PvP Dailies. You are not going to get something for nothing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    HF_Mudd wrote:
    I can mention at least one other game (that I personally know of and play) that is subscription model but offers additional "packs" through a cash store. These packs are (usually) mostly additional cosmetic options, costume bits and the like, but with one or two functional bits - new powers that are neat and/or convenient, but not overwhelming or vital (much like, oh, the Excelsior's transwarp capability). The devs of that game are on record as saying that the additional income from these packs lets them hire more people, and get new content for all players out faster, than they would from subscriptions alone.

    tl;dr: sub games can have cash shops too.

    It's worth noting that the buffing powers from two of the costume packs in CoH are random, nonstackable, and matched by buffs that can be generated specifically, reliably and all at once from the conversion of trivially available crafting components at bases. The travel power in another one is superceded by jetpack powers that can be crafted or bought cheaply in-game, or even generated as an logged-out "Day Job" power. Because of this, the jetpack for sale is basically a $5/month idiot tax.

    STO still has functionality locked up by the C-store. At least no longer on the obvious and egregious scale of functional ships, but it still goes farther than CoH.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I disagree entirely. There are numerous methods for gaining emblems. Your typical Vice Admiral can earn 10 emblems a day doing B'Tran and Deferi dailies. They can earn even more emblems if they run through a Fleet Action or other repeatable content that awards them.

    Can also trade explorations etc. for emblems
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I have to agree with the OP on this. The only reason they have them available IG is so they can say they do secondly who wants to grind for 20+ days to get a ship that isn't better then the normal T5s. There priced at 500emblums because people would rather buy a one cheap & quick on the c-store.

    Is this a good business tactic? Yes

    Does it show they care about the players more then money? Yes, because the extra money used helps improve the game and yes it is noticeable it is helping.

    Will I buy the new ship? No
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    You are not going to get something for nothing.
    They're not going to be free, although lower tiered versions should be (available via EC), but they're too expensive. Sure, you can get 15 emblems in a day, but you'd have to play for about an hour and a half every day for over a month. That is NOT casual gaming. Casual gaming is maybe 4 days a week. At a casual level, I could get maybe the ten per day, but that pushes me into the 2~3 months to get any of the ships.

    I'm aiming for reasonable, not FREE. $5~10 is a more reasonable ship pack if they must keep them in the store. 300~350 is a more reasonable emblem price. A more optimal solution is to make them craftable. It will add a whole new level of content to the game and relax this C-Store shenanigan.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The main problem with the C-Store has basically already been stated...
    We're looking at what amounts to micro-transaction-style products being offered at nearly full expansion price points.

    As much as I disagree with anything in the C-Store that isn't just cosmetic, the truly insulting part of the whole thing is the pricing. It just doesn't have any basis in reality when you compare it to what you see elsewhere. In most games the type of stuff we're seeing in the C-Store for fifteen to twenty dollars would be offered for five dollars or less as a micro-transaction. Meanwhile, if you'd gather up all of the concrete non-cosmetic additions to the store you see less content than you'd find in a standard thirty dollar expansion pack, yet if you tally it up you're looking at somewhere over 19,000 Atari Tokens which would be, what, over $240?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    thun712 wrote: »
    I have played Burning Sea and it is hard to compare it to STO because Burning Sea has a living economy. You're not SUPPOSED to be able to get a 1st rate just like that. 1st rates were to be built as a fleet effort. Other than playing in a group, STO doesn't offer that level of player interaction. You each get the same amount of points at the end.

    Not to clone Burning Sea, but perhaps we just need a similar option in STO. Production lines will help alleviate the problem. If I am "grinding" for say dilithium, while a fleetie is "grinding" for deutirium, then we get together and build a Defiant that's one thing. That's how Burning Sea works. Not everyone sitting though a month and grinding 500 emblems that really don't feel like they have meaning.

    But anyhow, the point is the value. Something needs to give and something needs to be revised. We were promised that only cosmetic items will be added to the C-Store. Ship-parts like the Hephaestus costume is acceptable. A fully functional vessel is not.

    FYI, you can no longer obtain a first rate in PotBS. Existing first rates were not removed, but no new ones can be obtained.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    (caveat) From what I understand (/caveat), true micropayments tend to mostly get eaten up by processing fees. There's not a lot of room between the threshold of actual profit and the cost of a monthly subscription, and an expansion pack or new game is "only" two to four times that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pasquatic wrote:
    FYI, you can no longer obtain a first rate in PotBS. Existing first rates were not removed, but no new ones can be obtained.
    I know, but it is still a combined effort to make any of the larger ships in-game. No single person can produce everything needed without constantly rebuilding/demolishing structures. Personally, I love the economy system in Burning Sea. I wish I could see a hybrid of that and, sigh, EVE Online be put in place for STO.

    Have a way for captains to join the Starfleet/Imperial Corp of Engineers and mine resources to later build the ships in-game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Like in EVE?

    IMO, mining (if implemented) will still probably cost you more, in hours of grinding, than it would take to just earn the money to buy it outright. Are you not able to earn money easily? (If so, how do you pay for your subscription?) Do you value your time so little? Or are you just morally opposed to paying real money for game items if you can at all help it?

    In one hour at my day job, I make enough to pay for a month's subscription, or (roughly) 1000 store points. Now if there's something in the store I want, I can either use some of the money I've earned to pay for my fun, or turn my fun time into another job that pays less per hour. What do you think is the better deal?
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