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Why do only woman wear no undershirts?
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Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Like, seriously?
With the uniforms from the open jacket pack all women don't wear any undershirt. The men? They wear lame stripped shirts.
I understand that you want the girls to show some cleavage for the folks to look at. I'm not too fond of that idea. But if you have to do it, than show the male toons some love, as well! It looks really silly to have the women walk around like that while the guys are prudes.
edit: Oh and yeah, spelling for the win.
With the uniforms from the open jacket pack all women don't wear any undershirt. The men? They wear lame stripped shirts.
I understand that you want the girls to show some cleavage for the folks to look at. I'm not too fond of that idea. But if you have to do it, than show the male toons some love, as well! It looks really silly to have the women walk around like that while the guys are prudes.
edit: Oh and yeah, spelling for the win.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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This, unfortunately, is hardly surprising for a team that is almost entirely comprised of men.
Now, whist I think the sexing-up of female toons veers into the tacky, there's certainly some grounds in saying it's 'true to Star Trek', but if that's the route Cryptic want to take I feel they are beholden to offer the same or similar options for male toons.
In my ideal world this would extend to allowing male toons to wear every thing the females could - up to and including 'cross-dressing' - this is a liberal Utopia, after all... But since I think Cryptic is rightfully afraid of a conservative backlash in that case... we at least deserve some man-beef! Where's Ricardo Montalban's chest-revealing attire? Hell, why not extend the option to go bare-chested to every male of every species as an off-Duty option?
I see this not only as a QoL issue for the men who want to sex up a little, but also as an ethical and political one that Cryptic has a moral obligation to fulfil. Trek ideals and Roddenberry's vision - although the man himself was somewhat mired in the values of his time - are about equality, freedom and egalitarianism - and if there's going to be leering at pretty people going on, it ought to come from both sides of the gender and sexuality lines!
I endorse what you say, and am interested in signing up for your newsletter.
I was actually disgusted by the amount of "skin" displayed on the female characters who are supposed to be Starfleet Officers. I was expecting something more professional, not the start of a striptease. We're not all 14 yr old hormone-jumping kids playing this game. Whoever approved this costume for females needs to take a step back and realize the EPIC-FAIL and make some changes asap.
i really hope you're not (and if i am wrong, then apologies) suggesting that the cryptic team is sexist.
*Klick*
*klack*
WANT
'nuf said
I'm not sure I'd go as far as 'sexist', but I think they're guilty of perpetuating some pretty unhealthy gender roles.
That said, what word /would/ you use for 'repeatedly and constantly enforcing gender stereotypes by applying a different treatment to each'?
It's okay for the ladies to show a little skin, that's just sexy and playful, but the men have to be /all/ business?
to be honest, i don't think they're enforcing anything.
women in the game (as far as npc's go for starters) are treated exceptionally well and with great respect, even handing out missions and being tough bosses (if what i've heard about the stf's are true).
now, if you're talking about players, then again, i don't think they're enforcing anything. people asked for the open-shirted uniform in the poll, so that was what cryptic tried to do (even if they failed to an extent (sorry guys)). why isn't there a male variant, you ask? probably because the most famous open jacket uniform in star trek is picard's, and they knew that the fanbase wanted it. they're not showing bias towards anyone; they're giving the majority of paying customers what they asked for based on feedback. women even have more options, as they can do the picard thing or show skin. the men can't do that, and are stuck for the most part with a single undershirt.
is it necessarily fair? maybe not, but to assume it's intentionally gender biased is doing a dis-service to the people who make the game.
personally, i wanted the paul porter (who knows who that is) open collar variant to my uniform, but that's me.
how long do you really think it's going to be before we get a ripped kirk shirt? we're already geting the green wraparound, and that's not even close to being "all business".
(sorry, tangent based on your earlier post) as far as the breast slider being ridiculous? it's not. there are women who (unfortunately for their backs) developed large TRIBBLE even from their early teens. they may even want to play this game. TRIBBLE come in all shapes and sizes, large and small. having the slider means that not every woman has to have the exact same size (which they really shouldnt, because players would never agree on a default size), and it means that women like that (a couple of which i actually know) could play this game and have an avatar they felt fairly represented them. its also a much better system than having to put every cup size in the game (because that simply wouldn't cover it).
either way, you think they're enforcing gender stereotypes; i don't. if you have genuine concerns, i'm sure stormshade or someone else would be more than willing to address them.
i just think you should do something like that before you start accusing them of doing something that they (in fairness) might not actually be doing.
You can view the poll for yourself here: http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=173042
Now, I do agree that women should have the option of an undershirt, just as the men should have the option of no undershirt. But don't blame Cryptic for giving the majority what they wanted.
ahem...
Are you from the 1920s?
OT I disagree that Cryptic's sexist, I also disagree that they are perpuating/enforcing female stereotypes since there is a range of modest clothing options available and players are the ones who choose their outfits and whether their own character is "dignified" or "sexy". If you want actual outright unabashed sexism and stereotyping look at TERA Online in which the only clothing(calling that stuff armour is a bad joke) available to females is pretty much fantasy roleplay stripper gear, forcing female characters into sexual objectification no matter what the player wants, now that's something that is disgusting and not overblown sillyness about 14 yr olds and hormones. The omission of an undershirt option for females in the 2409 open jackets does need to be corrected though. Frankly I want more cleavage shown, it's pretty minimal atm, but the ESRB are silly.
Nope. I just managed to keep a standard of morality. What purpose does this particular set serve they way Cyptic did it for the female avatars? The only good I can think of to say is some of the other open jackets actually do have a shirt still.
Does it become okay if the skin showing option is for both genders, or is it specifically bad because the women have it? If it's the later, than aren't you just as bad for saying something is 'okay' for one gender, but not okay for the other? Obviously there are standards that need to be kept - and Cryptic keeps those by following the ESRB and doing their best to keep a healthy rating.
Ultimately, this is not Cryptic's grand plan to be sexist or amoral. This was a costume design that was on a magazine cover. Costume options were posted in a poll. This was one of the ones that won. They went out of their way to go add other options to other characters - they made a decidedly female-only cleavage-showing 'sexy' outfit into a costume package for both genders as well as having multiple options.
You'll never be rid of the costume options. People paid for them because they wanted them. And people wanted them because they thought it was "sexy", I'm sure - but the options are there, and I'm sure you could come up with some creative character reasons why you would or might have them, if you were so inclined.
Honestly, the best compromise is the solutions offered previous. There should be shirtless options for men under their uniforms, and there should be shirt options for women.
Your standard appears to be a bit judgemental and narrow, "start of a strip tease" really? You don't think that's a bit excessive?
The purpose it serves is to generate revenue and increase customisation options, same as everything else in the cstore. People saw the jackets on the front of pcgamer, wanted them...and got a poor excuse for them, but Cryptic still gets some sales and they look a little bit like the blue alien cover so it's almost okay.
I bought the current version but only as I was buying new character slots and had points to spare, maybe later they'll be able to add OJs more like the PCgamer cover.
Also seconding the post of the person above me ST.
I apologise for the harsh tones of my posts but I really do think you're OTT on this, so it's unfortunately necessary.
I don't for the minute think this is planned - but nor for a second do I believe this is entirely unconscious. Players are /not/ the ones who choose because male toons /are simply not given that option/.
And I'm very sorry if there are those in this thread that don't see the innate gender bias involved - or want to blunt the issue by raising far more egregious examples of sexism in the video game industry - but I fear that is precisely because it has became an expected cultural norm for women to dress in a fashion that would be unacceptable to most if a man were to do it.
also, what examples of clothing are you talking about that are unacceptable for men in this game?
That's the biggest load of revisionist nonsense I have ever heard. Women /themselves/ come in all shapes and sizes, but it's a burning necessity to let those big-boobed gals have a representative avatar? Except for one thing - of course: No Fat Chicks.
Edited To Add: And more to the damn point, your 'representative' slider does /not/ represent those girls with an A-cup, since it starts at around - at /best/ - a large B. Isn't that /odd/?
Let's see, we have: The aforementioned - and key - open jacket undershirt vs. no-undershirt issue which kicked all this off, we have a variety of skirts, some of which err on the side of 'teensy', we have a number of tube-tops and similarly midriff-revealing attire in the Mirror Universe sets, thigh-high boots, a slinky dress (which is pretty damn ugly, imo), and - of course - the Orion-wear.
Now yes, the /player/ is the one responsible for being able to put these things together in a fashion that can extend to the tacky... but men are given /nothing/ like this. The male mirror uniforms leave the wearer just as dressed-to-the-neck as anything else. Which is precisely the complaint that started this thread: We're not being prudish, but if there's going to be a hint of sex, it ought to be available to all genders so that result can be appreciated by all orientations.
Actually TERA while it initially seems so isn't that egregious an example to use, the women there are powerful warriors yet are reduced to "sexual things", similarly revealing clothing in games doesn't do that for men quite so much, they become "sexual warriors", their sexuality a complement to their power not an undermining of it(unless they look pretty camp, then they become targets of humour).
Basically to avoid being long winded I'm trying to say that because of the sexism double standard even if you had men with torn shirt outfits and the like, the result would still be sexist. Add cross dressing to men and you don't adress the sexist clothing gap but crossfire gays and transsexuals.
I still think revealing male clothing should be added and is likely required to defeat the double standard(present in STO I guess just much less than is normal) for STO.no undershirt OJs for males and ripped tops probably works, some more unexpected stuff will.be required tho.
I'm entirely open to counterarguments to this as it's only something I've been formulating a few days and needs improvement.
And now I'm dead tired and am off, what fun this has been though.
why should i reply if you're going to get so defensive?
but for pig iron:
who said they were fat? i certainly didn't. you can be well endowed without being fat.
then what do you suggest? limiting even more women so they can't have it the way they want just because you don't have it the way you want instead of simply asking them to include A-cups in the slider?
half the stuff you're talking about actually comes from canon tv shows/movies, first of all. the devs are just taking what was in the shows and transferring it over for the most part.
if you want more stuff for the men to wear, then ask for it. whining about the devs being gender biased isn't going to do a damn thing to encourage them to actually satisfy that want.
do i wish men had an open collar/skin too? of course i do. the fact that i don't have it doesn't mean they're biased, it just means they haven't gotten around to it yet. we're getting the kirk wrap; we'll probably get the ripped shirt at some point. we'll get more revealing clothing for the klingons.
even then, though, i somehow get the feeling that it won't be enough.
I tend to agree with you Leanne, there needs to be equal variations on outfits for all characters. However while there is a lot of revealing female clothing in the game, do remember that virtually all of the 'teensy' outfits you mentioned are cannon. (Actually the orion tops in ENT Borderland were smaller than a lot of belts, so Cryptic actually toned that part down.... though not by much.)
Since this is a Star Trek game, obviously Cryptic's 1st concern is going to be getting what's on the show in the game. Unfortunately for your point, the men of Trek tend to stay well covered with the exceptions of Krik's battle damaged tunic and the klingons. Klingons in game (both sexes) should have the option to go without a shirt below their vests and body armor. This happened in cannon. For example see these pics of Cpt Klaa and his 1st mate here and here.
Now my big complaint with the open uniforms is type of undershirt. As pointed out in another thread, this purchase only offer two-textured type of undershirt when there were also shirts that were plain material all the way up and others that had a zipper running down to about mid-chest (about the same distance as buttons on a polo shirt).
I think both sexes should have the option of wearing any of the three undershirt types (or none at all) with any of the uniform tops.
The point /was/ - and I apologize for the defensiveness - that the gender bias is implicit in the fact that the bar strays so far over into 'yowza' territory, which you justify in the way of it allowing a wide range of representation - but it doesn't allow representation of the /far more common/ A-cup. Their 'representation' is biased towards big hooters, basically.
Likewise, the 'fat' comment was born of the same thing: You say they're being 'representative' in allowing large TRIBBLE, but that representation doesn't permit us to create a meaningfully or realistically hefty character?
If it's 'representation' rather than just 'woohoo, boobies!' it sure seems to lean towards the TnA end of the spectrum, doesn't it?
And yes, you can argue 'they will', but as things stand now they /haven't/, and yet the number of things of that nature for the girls is /huge/. The primary tone of my very /first post/ was 'if you're going to do it, we want some sexy menz', that's /still/ my position and the day they do that I promise you I'll be on these forums whooping them up. And claiming all the credit.
It took me a while to work out what you were saying here, but it is absolutely a valid point - albeit a little deeper into the subject than I was really wanting to go here. It's /very very/ easy given the current outfits to create a female Starfleet officer that is undermined by her choice in clothing... but it's a very mix and match system - I rather think the new open jacket thing - matched with a pair of trousers - falls into the 'sexy but not TRIBBLE' area of things that maintains a sexual quality without reducing a female character to a mere sexy picture, Your Mileage May Seriously Vary.
But you're absolutely right that the double standard will always exist and it is far, far easier for women to stray into that area than it is for men.
I don't think, however, that undermines my original point too terribly much, but I do appreciate the input.