Cleric stat help?

vit or no depends on your gear and play style.

My buddy and i made a cleric when we were still weak for farming TT and needed it. It wears G15 morai and 2 pieces G16LA. It also got some vit statted. At 10k HPs and some warding levels, its quite durable and can stand emperors bubbles nicely. Its healing is not top notch at about 12k average magic attack, but it really is plenty. Killing anything with it is a bit of a pain. Its just enough to defend fire in FW. It was perfect for us though. It doesnt need to do much killing since its always in the presence our barb and BM

If however you want to be killing things instead of just healing. If you are gonna have proper refined G16. If you dont care about surviving bubbles because your not gonna be doing emperor. You better have max magic.

If however you are a starting player who doesnt expect decent gear anytime soon. Vit is a good idea on any toon. And on a cleric much moreso than any other toon. You can change later when you rebirth.

Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »

You can add vit, but down the road you will want to restat that to mag. It effects not only damage but mag def. I have a cleric and never needed the vit stats and never put any in it.

defences are a reason to stat more vit imo rather than mag. Mag adds mres. vit adds both mres and pres. Pres is much lower and thus more significant.

It was never really required to have Vit at all, except in specific instances you might be running. For general play, I started as pure mag, leveled as pure mag, and had absolutely no issues healing in instances, soloing for my TT60 weapon, and doing AoE leveling. With today's hyper leveling, vit has even less need to happen. Though conversely, with the Reawakening situation it's not as much an issue either.

Everyone still apparently tries to use the same tired argument of Vit adding survivability for a cleric when leveling; but unless you are talking about spikes it does not. It actually reduces your survivability, outside of spike damage. Because less magic = less powerful heals. So common sense alone dictates higher magic has better survivability, since you have Ironheart to heal yourself while playing. Again, higher Vit for health ONLY helps when taking spike damage.

Also the barb is using bad logic for the using Vit with Def sharding, since it ignores the fact that DEF lvl essentially amps any and all healing done. Which would amplify the self-healing loss from normal healing spells when removing points from Magic to stat into Vit. For heals based on a different stat (soulforce with the UVD skills), this would of course not apply. So the introduction of UVD does take some of the weight for the better solo survivability of pure mag over vit/mag, anytime IHB is involved it will default to pure mag being better.

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

It was never really required to have Vit at all, except in specific instances you might be running. For general play, I started as pure mag, leveled as pure mag, and had absolutely no issues healing in instances, soloing for my TT60 weapon, and doing AoE leveling. With today's hyper leveling, vit has even less need to happen. Though conversely, with the Reawakening situation it's not as much an issue either.

Everyone still apparently tries to use the same tired argument of Vit adding survivability for a cleric when leveling; but unless you are talking about spikes it does not. It actually reduces your survivability, outside of spike damage. Because less magic = less powerful heals. So common sense alone dictates higher magic has better survivability, since you have Ironheart to heal yourself while playing. Again, higher Vit for health ONLY helps when taking spike damage.

Also the barb is using bad logic for the using Vit with Def sharding, since it ignores the fact that DEF lvl essentially amps any and all healing done. Which would amplify the self-healing loss from normal healing spells when removing points from Magic to stat into Vit. For heals based on a different stat (soulforce with the UVD skills), this would of course not apply. So the introduction of UVD does take some of the weight for the better solo survivability of pure mag over vit/mag, anytime IHB is involved it will default to pure mag being better.

what def sharding ?
I am only stating that magic adds to mdef. I never mentioned any shards. Vit adds to pdef and mdef. Pdef is more important since you got less so adding some has a more significant effect.

Yes more magic is stronger heals. But usually you arent healing yourself, youre healing others. Also, healing isnt much about the magic attack that you have and thus the strength of your heals. Its about timing them, and casting the right ones in the right situation. I never really care what cleric is IHing me. Any clerics IH will be fine. And for BB i surely couldnt care less. Its all about the halved dmg.

I know everyone loves pure builds even if its just for the beautifull sound of it. "pure".
However, vit is vastly underrated. survivability is about spike dmg, because the small damages anyone can survive so those can be ignored. Survivability is about surving bubbles, about surviving the physical AOE from the UCH boss. Stuff like that.

Not saying that you are wrong to go for pure magic. If you are G16 medium refined you are indeed tough enough for anything in pve. If however you are new and anticipate on enterling level 100 instances in TT90 gear with either 3k HP full mag or 4.5k HP with 100 vit statted. Please stat vit.

And no money is wasted on restatting. You need to rebirth twice and quite possibly 3 times when the next update comes in 2 days.

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

The main argument for Vit is basically going to revolve around UVD skills in PvP. Those are based mostly on soulforce, and so reduce reliance on magic as the main source of damage; thereby mitigating the offensive power lost through going Vit.

wait wut.

Regarding the argument pure vs la/ha/vit.

Let me give the reason why I support various builds...even ones that are unconventional....

What's the difference between a dead cleric and a living cleric?

The Answer: 1 hp point.

What heals better...regardless of build...A dead or a living cleric?

Its true that a pure magic will do more damage and have stronger heals in even gear. Its also true that a different type will likely have more survivability...and that counts for a lot more than people realize. A living cleric can still turn the tide of the battle. A dead cleric cannot. Just something to keep in mind.

I'd actually argue that rebirth has made it more reasonable to do the easier, vit heavy or unconventional builds your first go around because it costs you absolutely nothing to change and allows you to use cheaper gear building up. Which you can in turn use to invest into levelling faster and buying higher quality gear later down the road. Especially now that yoru BH squad probably isn't going to be relying on you having something like pure builds even if they are morons for example, because the dreamchaser gear that comes from the caves and as the quests are ridiculously overpowered. With those quests for example everything up to 69 with the exception of those two bosses in 51 are now easily soloable for a cleric even if it isn't pure. So for what reason do you need the strongest heals. Might as well stat for like those oops moments in FC wherein you'd need say more than 5k hp or get one shotted. *Shrug*l

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I'd actually argue that rebirth has made it more reasonable to do the easier, vit heavy or unconventional builds your first go around because it costs you absolutely nothing to change and allows you to use cheaper gear building up. Which you can in turn use to invest into levelling faster and buying higher quality gear later down the road. Especially now that yoru BH squad probably isn't going to be relying on you having something like pure builds even if they are morons for example, because the dreamchaser gear that comes from the caves and as the quests are ridiculously overpowered. With those quests for example everything up to 69 with the exception of those two bosses in 51 are now easily soloable for a cleric even if it isn't pure. So for what reason do you need the strongest heals. Might as well stat for like those oops moments in FC wherein you'd need say more than 5k hp or get one shotted. *Shrug*l

It actually argue both ways. The main reason for pure magic, is and always has been for solo leveling. If you're going with a group, it doesn't matter what you do, which argues against both. For solo AoE, the higher heals matter more than higher health, especially if you have dedicated farming gear made. Though PV has also made the extraneous.

In the end, it isn't so much that there is an argument for pure magic, as there needs to be one against going it. Why take lesser heals and lesser damage? Is there an instance that requires it? They are few are far between, especially when considered against how few health we get for each Vit point. And even bringing up FCC would be a matter of when, not if. Because the early levels are so much easier as pure magic compared to vit.

To give an example, my pure mag varming butterflies vs. the only cleric higher than me on the server at the time. They took almost 3 times as long to kill one, because they had to keep casting heals to survive. I'd guess hit 0-1 times, even 2 levels lower than them. Not from refines or anything, but because I used after cast canceling and was pure magic for maximum damage.

Those are the comparisons that should be used, for comparing the two. I noticed the cleric guide recommended didn't even cover after-cast canceling, which is key to maximizing cleric DPS early on. And that's 2008 junk.

So it's more a question of what would require weakening your character from solo play, that determines how, when, and how much to put into vit. Because I remember soloing FCC up until the 2nd boss at 82 as a pure magic (cleared 1st boss and all mobs, until that first damn dragonet) in the 2008 FCC no problem. Had no clue how to summon the 2nd boss, and being unable to kill the the dragonet kinda killed that venture off. But I do recall having around 3.8k or so health, maybe less. Which means even with higher Vit, I still would die.

Which is why pure magic should always be the norm deviated from, as long the person understands the reason for the deviation. Honestly a lot of the clerics nowadays read as very out of touch, since I just got done responding to someone offering 2009 advice on putting Vit stat for PvP, and that doesn't even come close to the reality of nowadays where even 200 vit doesn't matter for jack without proper gear. I ran the flag both times, and still came in last since the other people had better gear. No enemy appeared, it was just us existing. I checked other maps, and even people who AFK'ed and did nothing, earned more than my cleric healing, buffing, debuffing, and damaging in the fight.

So what good would vit do in such an instance, when it doesn't even matter as far as the game mechanics are concerned? And considering I have a +10 purify weapon, it's not as if I was running in naked. Too many high levels, giving advice that only works for high levels is what a lot of this boils down to.

Ok. To be honest, I've always had a solo playstyle. I have no faction, and never have had a faction. I squad for groups. I either duo'd quests, or I quested alone, or sometimes in small groups. When Istarted playing, I was a vitality cleric, with 20 base vit. Now of course, this isn't a lot. Its a 200 hp cushion. But that 200 hp cushion has saved me numerous times. I've literally seen my health drop to 1 hp before, but regardless, I was a living cleric.

Some people are better defensively. Others are better offensively. If a cleric can take a hit, and not die, and effectively heal their sqaud, that's what's important...regardless of whether they're pure, vitality, heavy armor, light armor, endgame, not endgame, citrine, or garnet.

It does not matter. What matters is can this cleric heal and get the job done. Solo mode, some mobs are tougher. Nothing is stopping that cleric from kiting, or using their cc skills though.

I absolutely agree that a pure cleric is going to hit harder than an unconventional one, and stronger heals, but whether G16, Morai, rank geared, or warsoul geared, as long as a person plays their toon how they want to, that's what matters. Have fun with it.

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

And if you aren't that, putting points in VIT won't do a ****ing thing. Seriously, how is that not obvious? 1K health won't do **** to help you when you run into those people you mentioned, because you're one shot either way. It's just you will lose 1k more off your charm by putting points into VIT, as opposed to going pure. People will be having to reawaken, farm, et al during this period, and they will not survive against R9 regardless of what they do. You're not arguing against going pure VIT, you're arguing against not being end gamed.

Heck, I accidentally put points into VIT on reawaken when I first came back again thinking it was strength since I didn't pay attention. So on the plus side I can aver to how worthless it is. Yay, 500 extra health, sure does a lot when you get hit by a R9 with full A+ set and they crit for 25k. And it's not like it's that easy finding non-R9s, when the player base dwindled to such a degree.

But gimping yourself for survival, when it won't do that without some serious gear behind it to make it matter? That's not even based in reality, let alone game mechanics. I guess you could then argue to "gear up," but that's as good as arguing your original point anyways.

VIT doesn't do jack for survival in PvP, without high end gearing to make it matter. PvP no longer dictates stat placement as it did long ago, because it just doesn't matter. Even just thinking about the power difference in 2008/2009, when it was recommended on PvP servers to have vit stat, and then comparing it to the power difference to now. What would be enough for undergeared is ****ing obviously not going to be enough when the power difference has more than doubled.

I'm honestly not sure how the many different examples that are obvious aren't that obvious. My previous thing stands, VIT for specific PvE instances if needed; but for pvp, are you kidding me? Anyone with high enough gear to make use of that, would be a no talent CSer if they haven't figured out how to play by then.

My vit's pretty much the difference between surviving some random 15k+ zerk crits from end-game r9rr sins so I can kite from them and not atm. Even just being able to take one more hit so you can then immune pot or pop one of your shields is a godsend. Being able to do that will allow your squad to (hopefully) take care of them so you can continue on with your role as a cleric.

If that vit helps someone become a two shot vs. being a one-shot and thus able to help their squad more, then I see no reason to not stat vit.

You two are slightly missing the point. If that extra vit is able to make a one shot into a two shot, then sure. But you are ignoring that even a 25k crit, is still 12.5k on a regular hit. And for someone to have 11.5K (taking off the 1k from 100vit), they are not even on the lower side of highly geared. They are end game at that point, which is the whole point I've been making.

For the people looking for advice, they are not going to be your end game geared players. End gamers will have played through the game, and know what they need. So giving advice that will only work for end gamers, while generalizing it as if every new cleric runs around with 11k+ health, is insane.

Role doesn't even matter in those cases, as they will still be one shot when aimed at. And with the reduced server turn outs for NWs, it's much more lopsided than normal. Add in the Auroras not affecting those above 5 levels with the need to reawaken twice, and it further changes what roles you would take. And since my cleric was Reawakened and lvl 85 last NW, I spent my time switching forms to heal, buff, freeze, crit amp, and debuff where needed. Fun sure, but at no point did those extra vit points I placed into it by accident decide anything.

For Vit to matter, it has to actually do what people claim it does. It's pretty much that simple. Claiming it WILL make someone a two shot, in this hoped for example, doesn't the change the reality that it won't in most cases. And if you're rolling in a group, those cases are going to be taken by others. Since from what I noticed, the lowbies did not stick around to get beat up in small squad vs small squad. They took off to find a powerful group from their nation to leech off of. And the ones that don't, you'd have to try to get to them first before your group finishes them off. So even in your made up statistics, it will be skewed against the player due to that alone.

Again, the people who need advice on where to put stat points, are not going to be +10/+12 R93 gear, so using that as an example for advice given to the forum at large; well it's something, just not useful.

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

You two are slightly missing the point. If that extra vit is able to make a one shot into a two shot, then sure. But you are ignoring that even a 25k crit, is still 12.5k on a regular hit.

No you are missing the point.

There are many enemies. some do 1k damage some do 25k dmg. Others do anything in between that range.

The more hitpoints you have, the bigger percentage of that range does not one shot you.

Hitpoints are usefull no matter where you stand, it is bull**** to reason that that "they will still one-shot you anyway".

Also it is not about 1k hitpoints. Surely an end game TW cleric can stat many more than 100 points and often he will be buffed. There should easilly be 400-500 points to play with.
More likely it is the difference between say 15k and 19k unbuffed, or 12k and 16k if hes lesser refined.
For a fresh level 100 cleric who would have 3k unbuffed full magic, there are 200-250 points to play with. That 3kHP can be 5k. This is significant. And it does make the difference in some level 100 instances.

I am trying to reason here. Trying to explain what motives and situations are pro vit and what are pro magic. All you are doing is using unreasonably arguing to hammer on your anti vit stance. So please try to be reasonable instead of making silly comments about 1k hp on an 11.5k cleric. Who knows you might be able to convince me to change my ideas. I am open for arguments you know. But not if youre being unreasonable.

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Stahp right there. Near end-game (talking full +10 refines with +10 NW upgrades and decent A cards) is 13k-14k HP unbuffed or so for an AA class now. Vit builds will take it up to 15k-17k. 11.5k unbuffed was end-game like what...two years ago now?

Between that and what you said about UVD earlier in the thread, I genuinely don't think you know what end-game is.

No they won't, or are we using made up numbers? 100 vit is 1000 health for a cleric. You made a difference of 2k - 3k health to try to make it more disparate I guess; but no one has mentioned a 205/305 vit build vs. a 5 vit yet, so it seems more exaggeration to make a point.

And for your main point about what constitutes end game health, you again are not paying any attention to the state of the game; which I have repeatedly mentioned as shifting things.

Rebirth 1, Rebirth 2, nuema, meridians, pokemon cards: all these affect over-all health, and some require rebirthing at least once to start building up. So does someone stay farming pre-rebirth, and lose out over-all trying to get some basic gear they will upgrade just to outgrow anyways; or do the smart thing and get enough to start rebuilding and hit the new dailies. Also, this would basically be advice guidance; the amount of time if someone actually PLAYS means they are less likely to need advice, unless they are an idiot. So it is more pointed towards people who are gear building and character building, which is why using 15k health would be dumb. They are months if not years away from that. Why on earth build for something that won't have anything to do with them for a while?

As is with 55 vit or so and the +1200 health from 2 R8r set bonus and some gear from +5-+7, I have 6762 health unmodified; even your vaunted vit build would only set it at 7262 over-all health. And that would drop to 6062 if someone went without R8R bonus. To get beyond that would require idiotic refinement levels for gear that would be ditched soon anyways.

I suppose a cleric could stupidly shard health instead of phys def, much like a mystic recently did in a full delta. They were T15 sharded health most likely to survive AoE hit in FCC, which really just reinforces hyper baby talentlessness. They were one-shotted over and over by the AoE of the 6th stage boss while fully buffed. Over and over, didn't matter. And it hit me for anywhere from 600 -2k damage, so most likely phys damage.

Translate that into NW, and all the classes hitting with phys damage would ravage a health sharded cleric. So where would this health come from to reach the numbers you illustrate, unless they stupidly waste money for no real gain? They won't keep it, not real good resale value, and the amount of refinement to reach your numbers is pretty frickin high; which would mean over-all loss from not rebirthing and releveling for the newer content.

All your examples stem from end game CS standpoint only; they address neither the leveling process, gear in between, or anything added into the game since inception outside what max level is. And people at max level end game gear should not need advice anyways, if they have half a clue what they are doing.

Granted I had fun stomping 2 clerics, a sin, and a bar solo in a crystal map last NW; but they were totally clueless. 585 extra health (barb buffed) wouldn't have changed that any. One cleric even had around 13k health, but they were just so terrible. It's like they thought having better gear trumped competence or something. Luckily they came on res, so as long as I murdered one before the next appeared, it was 1 v 1 over and over.

With the apparent recent desertion of playerbase, and people power-leveling alts, why does someone need extra vit vs. a similarly geared character? Clerics are the ultimate ******* lock class, while removing healing from a target. Harder to solo vs multiples, but if you're in a group they should be protecting against multiples anyways.

For 1 on 1, fighting over-geared melee is great; especially barbs. Constant sleep lock with multiple aurora stacking and MoW, to freeze, HP, repeat and slowly whittle them down. That's a ton of contribution while frustrating the **** out of them.

As for the UVD reference you mention, if you're talking about how UVD diminishes the importance of pure magic over vit, you might want to recall it was in dealing with healing. And the Auroras I talked about healed solely based off of soulforce. Educate yourself.

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

What stats to enter ?
Astrelles sharding calculator

Playing around a bit, but whenever kind of stats i enter, vit/HP beats garnets by a landslide and similarly Its quite possible that you can enter stats where they are closer, but nothing to warrant talking about "stupidly sharding vit".

some examples i tried. I aint too familiar with AA, hope the stats i made up are reasonable:
mediocre stats"ubuffed (really low pdef, norecast r9 ring yet, badly refined amulet. Should make garnets come out better....
Mediocre stats buffed
Mediorce stats lower grade gems
Better stats buffed
better stats unbuffed

Again, what part of people needing advice are generally not going to be R9r3? 50 DEF lvl and 14K pdef in your example? And that person needs advice on where to stat? Are you serious?

That is endgame gear, most likely with endgame refines if they are 14K pdef without pdef shards. Why do people keep bringing things like this into an area giving advice to new clerics? Did the game start handing out R9 to every newcomer that I wasn't aware of?

Try using a normal calculator without made-up values, it's a lot easier to see what I am talking about when saying the values you guys are tossing around are insane for someone leveling up and in need of advice.

And while you guys use made up numbers, I use actual looking at other people in the game for back-up evidence. I saw someone in T15 nirvana gear die over and over, 6 times, on one boss. They had all health sharding. (health, not vit. why bring Vit stones at all into a conversation that by its very nature would not be end game? That'd be dumb to shard Vit in non end-game gear.)

This same boss while one shotting the squishy left and right every time it AoE'ed did 2k at max damage to my character. The other squishy had 6k health. So that is over 3 times the damage I received as a minimum to the health sharded squishy.

So yeah, that is dumb. Deciding to take more than 3 times damage from all physical sources, to survive a bit better against magic damage sources, is pretty terrible decision making skills. Because our main weakness in straight up fights, is those same physical damage classes. Which is why it's so awful, and has always been advised against in cleric forums.

So here, use this and try and make something with non-imaginary-land numbers to show what you are talking about. And if you make another end-game set-up, will there really even be a point to making a post pointing out how pointless it is? When we are in a thread giving advice on how to allocate points; which by its very nature, would suggest not end game.

http://pwi.ecatomb.net/character.php