Sins more broken than ever before?
Comments
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as it is now, people will be able to buy the 89skills, which were frantically sought after in the bidding hall
time to roll a SAGE SIN if there is no nurf0 -
all the crying in this thread, its so sad.
the grass is always greener on the other side
everyone wants another class nerfed cuz they just too bad at the game to deal with it.
as a sin i dont personally use tidal that much, only in bridge battle in nw, in 1v1 i always use foccused mind, i can easily use my genie to get past CC, now when i get zerk critted and only receive 1 damage i feel insanely OP, so im guessing if tidal was removed everyone would QQ about that next, hell, lets delete sins entirely since people are too lazy to kite the incredibly squishy close range class.
maybe its my server or my faction, but outside forums i mostly hear how easily sins are brushed off (in nw nights some faction squads i join make a game out of who kills our director the most b:victory)
If you cant CC a sin, just hit it and kite, hes either gonna die or run away all kinds of butthurt0 -
LostPoet - Dreamweaver wrote: »
There are many more things that I simply can't think of atm because i'm at work and haven't been on PWI for any PvP in a while, but you get the idea....
Sins more OP then ever? Nope....
And if you die or think they are super broken, then learn to play better.
Use more defensive genies, defense charms, and skills more appropriately.....
b:thanks
I would have agreed with this in a pwi pre-primal skills. There's actually a shockingly low amount of sins who are actually competent because the nature of their class abilities is so permissive of heavy stupidity.
It's was easy to even trick others into thinking you were a competent sin just by adopting a sage/DPH playstyle, even if your usage of the style was disgraceful to the true potential of it.
I encountered many heavily geared sins who were not able to get close to killing me despite outgearing me. Just a simple alternation of defense abilities+stun breaking genie was enough to survive them, provided they were stupid enough. There were legitimately only 2 or 3 sins on the server who posed an actual threat to my survival in nation war battles.
Killing an overgeared sin was a different story, their tidal has always been broken. BUt now their offense has been buffed up quite a bit. That new skill is nearly impossible to counter. Terrible assassins have a new fallback that they didn't need in the first place. Their new skills just make it that much easier for them to continue being knuckle-draggingly stupid and still be able to faceroll other players.
Still. Theres a whole process a player has to go through to acquire those skills. It's not as ready-made as the aps days where a caster/archer could not even step out of sz w/o being jumped by 5 ****** sins. I wouldn't say more broken than ever, but definitely broken again.0 -
Errrrrrrrr all this QQ about sins being broken is liek wtf?
why do u people tend to forget that ALL classes have their strengths and weaknesses
before u challenge a class jsut cuz they "BROKEN" as ive seen quoted a little too much why dont u tell yourself what makes a class strong?
i mean sure you have ur gears and **** but 2 people same geared fighting eachother who gonna win?
last i check pvp involves technique whne you fight?
ALL CLASSES CAN MAKE EACHOTHER **** BRICKS STOP COMPLAINING AND LEARN TO PLAY YOUR CLASS BETTER
if your complaining about a sin's sage tidal and their dmg and w.e else why dont you just upgrade ur pk fighting style to penetrate that?
NOUF SAID!The Grim Reaper
ONCE U GO DEMON YOU NEVER GO BACK0 -
_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »I would have agreed with this in a pwi pre-primal skills. There's actually a shockingly low amount of sins who are actually competent because the nature of their class abilities is so permissive of heavy stupidity.
It's was easy to even trick others into thinking you were a competent sin just by adopting a sage/DPH playstyle, even if your usage of the style was disgraceful to the true potential of it.
I encountered many heavily geared sins who were not able to get close to killing me despite outgearing me. Just a simple alternation of defense abilities+stun breaking genie was enough to survive them, provided they were stupid enough. There were legitimately only 2 or 3 sins on the server who posed an actual threat to my survival in nation war battles.
Killing an overgeared sin was a different story, their tidal has always been broken. BUt now their offense has been buffed up quite a bit. That new skill is nearly impossible to counter. Terrible assassins have a new fallback that they didn't need in the first place. Their new skills just make it that much easier for them to continue being knuckle-draggingly stupid and still be able to faceroll other players.
Still. Theres a whole process a player has to go through to acquire those skills. It's not as ready-made as the aps days where a caster/archer could not even step out of sz w/o being jumped by 5 ****** sins. I wouldn't say more broken than ever, but definitely broken again.
Dont you have primal skills too?
Last i check i fought a cleric with new cyclone and she jsut constantly ripped me with no cooldown
THATS OP AS **** DAMN IT if i had a skill like that constnatly that WONT miss due to evasion and shiit i think id be satisfied?
learn ur class please enouf QQThe Grim Reaper
ONCE U GO DEMON YOU NEVER GO BACK0 -
Ms_Sinister - Archosaur wrote: »
Dont you have primal skills too?
Last i check i fought a cleric with new cyclone and she jsut constantly ripped me with no cooldown
THATS OP AS **** DAMN IT if i had a skill like that constnatly that WONT miss due to evasion and shiit i think id be satisfied?
learn ur class please enouf QQ
The person you're replying to is an archer, not a cleric. And archers kinda got jack-all in this expansion that every other class wasn't getting as well.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
I
Subtraction.
/blatant sig copy is blatant
105/105/105 obtained! b:cute0 -
Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »The person you're replying to is an archer, not a cleric.
Gotta love the general intelligence level of my server b:surrenderCurrent: http://mypers.pw/1.8/#133167
105-103-102
TW/NW Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/Axel3200
Some people get R93 and become another cookiecutter DD, other people get R93 and get called out as serious threats. At some point, it's just not about gear anymore. - Qui
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Ms_Sinister - Archosaur wrote: »
Dont you have primal skills too?
Last i check i fought a cleric with new cyclone and she jsut constantly ripped me with no cooldown
THATS OP AS **** DAMN IT if i had a skill like that constnatly that WONT miss due to evasion and shiit i think id be satisfied?
learn ur class please enouf QQ
Thank you for being such an appropriate aid to the point I was trying to express.0 -
lol JarkJarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »Gotta love the general intelligence level of my server b:surrenderThe Grim Reaper
ONCE U GO DEMON YOU NEVER GO BACK0 -
_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »Thank you for being such an appropriate aid to the point I was trying to express.
Listen you so called "young scholar"
ur QQing over spilled milk
liek i said learn ur class which ever u are
the more u QQ it shows everyone else that u as WHATEVER class u play on SUCK LIEK ****
CAN I GET AN AMEN?The Grim Reaper
ONCE U GO DEMON YOU NEVER GO BACK0 -
"Gotta love the general intelligence level of my server"
Shut up, you're annoying.
Just a few things from Longknifes post
"the sin is smashing is face against his keyboard" I laughed way to hard at this.
Ok you seem to think sins are some sort of demi-gods and in tw it takes your whole squad to focus them and the still dont die qq.
Does your faction not have sins or something? Have you seen how fast a sin drops to another sin? Have you ever just thought about straight dding on the sin to drop it?
I'll let you all in on a little secret. As some of you archers have complained about you have same armor type as a sin, right? Right. You complain that sins are to tanky yet our armor is essentially the same as an archers except we have the disadvantage of having to be standing on our enemy to hit them. Sins aren't a tank class! Sins benefit from the mentality "qq I cant debuff or purge I cant kill qq" you don't need to! Just hit the damn sin and IT WILL die. Sins are just as squishy as archers except more vulnerable due to them being a melee class and thus getting meleed by every cat and his bm. As a counter balance we have a buff that means we dont get ccd as bad, giving us a chance to retaliate.
Sage Tidal- Is a great skill, 66% to avoid debuffs is great! Is it game breaking? No, not at all. Not in the slightest.
You have a sage sin. You mu zun taunt the *****. "status evasion" your next attack has, essentially a 50% chance to land. Longknife, is your squad to incompetent to do things like ep to "tick" tidal thus raising the chance of the next debuff landing?
The new sin skills ARE strong but sins ARE a dd class.
Are the new sin skills any stronger than skills other classes have? Possibly.
But the new sin skills are SINGLE target. If your squad cant focus a single sin at once and take it out before it takes the 10 of you out one by one you need to quit. Sins are not as "omg qq hax op qq" as you all make out. You casters are just to used to one shotting every sin you see.q.q is a term from the old star craft days.
pressing the button q brought up the player menu and pressing it again quit the game. Some mong didnt know what it meant and thought it was a pair of crying eyes leading to the "qq" term we have today. GG.
#TheMoreYouKnow0 -
Gingerpubes - Morai wrote: »Ok you seem to think sins are some sort of demi-gods and in tw it takes your whole squad to focus them and the still dont die qq.
No.
I'm merely saying that from a grand scheme of things perspective, a BM for example can still be an incredible benefit to his team even if he doesn't manage to stun or DG or even damage a single opponent, if said opponents end up wasting a good frame of time focusing him. He draws fire and then that gives the BM's DDs a better chance at killing enemy DDs with little resistance, or helps his DDs advance.
This is what sins are now doing. Perhaps better than a BM or Barb could ever do it. Why? Because the inability to be purged makes them just as tanky, but whereas BM and Barb can be slept or SoG'ed or purged and killed, a sin is immune to these issues AND can spam triple spark to survive AND can consistently drop targets (or at least greatly endanger them). The result is that you simply CANNOT tab off and tell people to ignore or go around it because that thing just triple sparked; it's going to start killing your team if left unattended, and since you cannot stunlock it, you have to kill it outright.
Will it die? Absolutely, but why the HELL am I spending ~15 seconds killing the average tanky BM and 30+ seconds killing the average tanky sin?I AGOREY0 -
Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »No.
I'm merely saying that from a grand scheme of things perspective, a BM for example can still be an incredible benefit to his team even if he doesn't manage to stun or DG or even damage a single opponent, if said opponents end up wasting a good frame of time focusing him. He draws fire and then that gives the BM's DDs a better chance at killing enemy DDs with little resistance, or helps enemy DDs advance.
This is what sins are now doing. Perhaps better than a BM or Barb could ever do it. Why? Because the inability to be purged makes them just as tanky, but whereas BM and Barb can be slept or SoG'ed or purged and killed, a sin is immune to this issues AND can spam triple spark to survive. The result is that you simple CANNOT tab off and tell people to ignore or go around it because that thing just triple sparked; it's going to start killing your team if left unattended, and since you cannot stunlock it, you have to kill it outright.
Will it die? Absolutely, but why the HELL am I spending ~15 seconds killing the average tanky BM and 30+ seconds killing the average tanky sin?
What u saying is absolutely true
in TW all classes are dangerous
focus on that sin "WHICH CAN BE A DIVERSION" then bm and seekers/barbs come rushing in
bm does that evil HF seekers ion spike/gemini slash and barbs with their GHETTO Arma
BAM that wipeout
For TW each class has its purpose dont think a sin always fights in a TW
remember that young scholarsThe Grim Reaper
ONCE U GO DEMON YOU NEVER GO BACK0 -
Here, let me perhaps reword this...
Rather than asking if sins are broken, let me ask TW leaders: would you know consider endgame sins arguably as useful as endgame BMs?
That's why I made this thread, because I'm honestly contemplating if they are. Both are useful since they serve different purposes (BM still has better crowd control), but honestly, sins often times feel like a superior distraction. A tanky BM needs only to have a veno sent after him followed up by a stun; moment BMs lose marrow, their tankiness stops. A tanky sins simply requires focus fire and every triple spark they use is time bought for the team. Triple spark leads to charm tick leads to another 10 seconds that he cannot be ignored.
So while the BM's aim is to force the push forward, I have to honestly question if a sin can't do it better now. Not because the sin will stun more or kill more neccesarily, but because the sin simply provides a longer distraction. The longer the sin is on a DD alive and kicking, the longer the sin's fellow DDs get a clear shot at the enemy DDs. Coordination kills tanky BMs, but coordination can only do so much versus a sin that knows what it's doing. The length of time required to kill a sin simply feels ridiculous to me. I don't think their oneshot ability or their ability to evade stuns and other ailments is ridiculous; they can keep those. I think their ability to force a push forward or delay/distract an enemy squad is ridiculous.I AGOREY0 -
Ms_Sinister - Archosaur wrote: »What u saying is absolutely true
in TW all classes are dangerous
focus on that sin "WHICH CAN BE A DIVERSION" then bm and seekers/barbs come rushing in
bm does that evil HF seekers ion spike/gemini slash and barbs with their GHETTO Arma
BAM that wipeout
For TW each class has its purpose dont think a sin always fights in a TW
remember that young scholars
No but that's the issue. Being a tank, moving the push forward, being a distraction? These are jobs for BM and non-cata barbs. But suddenly sin seems to be outperforming them. Not ENTIRELY, mind you, but to a decent extent where people might say "**** BM/Barb, rerolling sin."
It's an issue because every class has a job to justify it's existence. Sin is suddenly encroaching on the jobs of BM, Barb and Seeker in that it now provides insane damage output AND respectable "support."I AGOREY0 -
Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »No but that's the issue. Being a tank, moving the push forward, being a distraction? These are jobs for BM and non-cata barbs. But suddenly sin seems to be outperforming them. Not ENTIRELY, mind you, but to a decent extent where people might say "**** BM/Barb, rerolling sin."
It's an issue because every class has a job to justify it's existence. Sin is suddenly encroaching on the jobs of BM, Barb and Seeker in that it now provides insane damage output AND respectable "support."
the problem now adays is that people cant focuz on that one class to have their technique down on it..
when u stay changing chars u kinda fumble and mix ur styles and thoughts
please focus on the char u kno that best suits you
dont jsut say "OH cuz my barb sucks ill just go play sin" thats the same thing as saying "you will never be good at any class with that motive at mind"The Grim Reaper
ONCE U GO DEMON YOU NEVER GO BACK0 -
Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »Here, let me perhaps reword this...
Rather than asking if sins are broken, let me ask TW leaders: would you know consider endgame sins arguably as useful as endgame BMs?
That's why I made this thread, because I'm honestly contemplating if they are. Both are useful since they serve different purposes (BM still has better crowd control), but honestly, sins often times feel like a superior distraction. A tanky BM needs only to have a veno sent after him followed up by a stun; moment BMs lose marrow, their tankiness stops. A tanky sins simply requires focus fire and every triple spark they use is time bought for the team. Triple spark leads to charm tick leads to another 10 seconds that he cannot be ignored.
So while the BM's aim is to force the push forward, I have to honestly question if a sin can't do it better now. Not because the sin will stun more or kill more neccesarily, but because the sin simply provides a longer distraction. The longer the sin is on a DD alive and kicking, the longer the sin's fellow DDs get a clear shot at the enemy DDs. Coordination kills tanky BMs, but coordination can only do so much versus a sin that knows what it's doing. The length of time required to kill a sin simply feels ridiculous to me. I don't think their oneshot ability or their ability to evade stuns and other ailments is ridiculous; they can keep those. I think their ability to force a push forward or delay/distract an enemy squad is ridiculous.
Ok that is a better question and doesn't sound like your a throwing a hissy fit.
"sins arguably as useful as endgame BMs?"
Yes and no.
The are different classes designed to do different things. This next bit applies for pushing and retreating imo. Bms are good for a larger group. Aoe stun and hf is a great way to fvck a bunch of cvnts up. Irrespective of whether you are attacking or defending. Sins are good, yes. They will however never have the same group cc ability. Sins are like scalpels. The cant cut in very fast and precisely taking out strong people that would cause their squad issues.
For you cod players, BMs are the mass map emp and the sins are a flash bang.
Sins are VERY effective at taking out small numbers of high priority targets very fast. It's what they do. They will, however, never have the same impact and control on a mass fight as a bm.q.q is a term from the old star craft days.
pressing the button q brought up the player menu and pressing it again quit the game. Some mong didnt know what it meant and thought it was a pair of crying eyes leading to the "qq" term we have today. GG.
#TheMoreYouKnow0 -
OMG it's 2009 again !0
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Gingerpubes - Morai wrote: »Ok that is a better question and doesn't sound like your a throwing a hissy fit.
"sins arguably as useful as endgame BMs?"
Yes and no.
The are different classes designed to do different things. This next bit applies for pushing and retreating imo. Bms are good for a larger group. Aoe stun and hf is a great way to fvck a bunch of cvnts up. Irrespective of whether you are attacking or defending. Sins are good, yes. They will however never have the same group cc ability. Sins are like scalpels. The cant cut in very fast and precisely taking out strong people that would cause their squad issues.
For you cod players, BMs are the mass map emp and the sins are a flash bang.
Sins are VERY effective at taking out small numbers of high priority targets very fast. It's what they do. They will, however, never have the same impact and control on a mass fight as a bm.
Yes, but whereas BMs have the superior CC, sins survive better. It's incredibly easy for a squad to organize a plan to kill a BM; a BM without marrow goes down very quick, and purging a front-line class is incredibly easy; venos would jump at the opportunity to purge a target from a safe distance.
Speaking as a DD, the average BM scenario? The BM runs in, tries for stun and DG, maybe IGs, and that's all fine. Yes, fall back. Fall back, let the BM gain that little bit of ground for his team, then the moment the IG is off, focus him down. You can shoot him from a safe distance, you can stunlock him, you can purge him, and you can kill him. THEN you can move up and work on re-gaining that ground you lost. Best case scenario the BM is tanking it all either thanks to cleric heals or proper retreating on his part post-purge, so he keeps going. However, even here, it's obvious to get someone on the cleric and keep the pressure up. You can actively look at the scenario and concoct a working, reliable plan to kill the guy.
Now a sin? A sin pops out, likely drops a DD (archers especially seem to struggle with Elimination) and yes, everyone tabs to him. The sin is likely to answer the damage with a triple spark, allowing his charm to tick and increasing his damage. During the triple spark, DDs will likely fall back.....But a sin can instantly teleport to a DD of their choice and prevent it from running. Suddenly they're on another DD, that DD is either dead or using some form of survival skill (Expel, Psy will, AD, etc), which at the very least tires the DD down. Let's assume best case scenario and that the DD survives this. The sin is still going to be able to triple spark again for sure, and ta-da, another charm tick. By now a squad has given up ground and spent at least ~20 seconds on this sin. The enemy DDs are already advancing to take advantage of this, likely focusing the DD who had to expel to survive. Now what? The sin hasn't even potted. He can Pan Gu or IG. Bam, there's another 10 seconds he can survive and that he can teleport to a DD and harass it to hell. And again, best case scenario, let's say the sin doesn't directly kill his new target AGAIN and that he lacks the chi for another triple spark. What does he do? He retreats to stealth.
He's just spent a good 30 mins of having that squad's attention, and there were AT LEAST two DDs that couldn't properly retreat to avoid focus fire because the sin can IMMEDIATELY teleport to them and stun/immobilize them. That's 30 seconds the enemy DDs have an advantage because there's less attention on them.
And now? Well the sin has -at least- one spark to his name because some genius thought sins deserve a reward for running away like little girls, and he can pop out to immediately build another 180 chi. Not immediately; take a ~5-10 sec breather so people think he's gone, then come back. Just like that, he can drop another player and have the chi ready to triple spark any focus-fire (assuming people REACT that quick), and soon after he'll have Inner Harmony off cooldown again, and viola, this is another 20 seconds he's got free range and another three players he can personally harass. After that? The sin might die? BUT WHO THE **** CARES? His job is already done: he ALREADY created a massive issue and forced his push forward. He ALREADY became the center of attention for a solid minute. Who cares if he dies, who cares if he manages kills? I care about how outrageously taxing he is. Also mind that for every DD the sin drops or helps get killed, that's one less DD to focus fire him and help provide damage.
It's SOOOOOOOOO ****ing taxing. BMs could only dream of being this annoying. And mind you, that was best case scenario, where every DD jumped actually survives it and then the sin doesn't circumvent any weaknesses with proper stealth use.
It's also this:One of the problems here isn't you can't CC the sin, it's that people are either too afraid to try, or the are too busy assuming they can one shot said sin, and are discouraged when that doesn't happen. Sins tactics have changed, but people keep assuming that every sin is the same, and they can kill them all the same way. I've had it happen to me, where a mystic says they can 1 shot me with absorb soul, only to fall a few thousand short on a damage test.
Absolutely. I was actually going to suggest that mystic is best equipped to anti-sin too (too bad no one plays them...), simply because their combo is bound to proc and that thing would definitely land a kill when focus fire's involved.
But the issue that remains, even if the sin dies and gets purged, is that a BM costs one purge and one stun, a sin costs two. The enemy team is wasting double the resources and attention to bring down a sin that they'd be wasting on another target. Even IF the sin dies immediately, a sin is taxing on the opposing team simply by -existing-.
Like I said, part of the focus of this thread was to ask other squad/TW leaders if they feel sins have suddenly gone from being of minimal importance to one of the most key TW classes in the game. I certainly think they have, and when the class also doubles as the easiest 1v1 class with the most stacked odds, then wtf motivation do we have to make BMs, Seekers and Barbs? The latter three are still needed of course, but people choose their class selfishly, so OF COURSE everyone will personally choose the class amazing at all fronts.I AGOREY0 -
Hey Longknife instead of filling up the internet with your gigabytes worth of posts, how about submit a ticket to PWI to complain to them about it. It will yeild the same results as posting on forums.
You dont like a skill, thats fine. Dont write pages and pages of complaints about it. Kinda makes you come off of a cry baby *****. ijs.
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Hey Longknife instead of filling up the internet with your gigabytes worth of posts, how about submit a ticket to PWI to complain to them about it. It will yeild the same results as posting on forums.
You dont like a skill, thats fine. Dont write pages and pages of complaints about it. Kinda makes you come off of a cry baby *****. ijs.
God forbid someome take the time to write out a reasonable argument instead of a sentence or two of "NO U STOP QQING".Current: http://mypers.pw/1.8/#133167
105-103-102
TW/NW Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/Axel3200
Some people get R93 and become another cookiecutter DD, other people get R93 and get called out as serious threats. At some point, it's just not about gear anymore. - Qui
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »God forbid someome take the time to write out a reasonable argument instead of a sentence or two of "NO U STOP QQING".
He's just pissy because my alt guild has massively embarassed his main guild multiple times in TW. Ignore him.
But yeah I will admit I'm not exactly expecting this thread to be heard out or change anything. This post was made more or less so I could hear other squad or TW leader's opinions, hear if they've ALSO noticed more focused neccesary for sins than BMs, and if they'd now consider sins a key class for bigger-scale fights. Basically just wanted to confirm I hadn't gone bat**** insane and that my eyes weren't playing tricks on me. And of course if sins can outperform BMs or barbs as harassers in TW, then obviously that's problematic for the BM population and I expect it to start shrinking. Could expect the same of the barb and seeker population. (Seeker feels like a TW-capable sin with more AOE ability, but easier to drop and needs special preparation to guarentee a kill. Sin doesn't need any special preparation, so the main difference Seeker vs Sin is one AOEs and the other doesn't, but sin outperforms on other aspects as well...)I AGOREY0 -
Hey Longknife instead of filling up the internet with your gigabytes worth of posts, how about submit a ticket to PWI to complain to them about it. It will yeild the same results as posting on forums.
You dont like a skill, thats fine. Dont write pages and pages of complaints about it. Kinda makes you come off of a cry baby *****. ijs.
Actually, he's the only person I've seen to make a sensible argument and half intelligent thread on the subject.
Longknife, you're saying sins are amazing tanks in TW. Are you talking about +12 jaded sins with maxed passives, or are you talking about the average +10 dph sin? My server has no +12 jaded sins(well we have one but he's terrible and a complete non factor) so I've never really seen how strong one can be.
I do agree with you(to some extent) that sage tidal, resisted purge(most) of the time is powerful, considering a buffed target in TW is a lot harder to take down. However, tidal isn't 100% We can still be purged. I remember TWing against a certain faction, they had so many r9r3 archers I was getting purged through tidal every other minute. When someone gets purged, they can easily rebuff themselves using a spirit of defense, if they're willing to wait another 2 minutes to use apoth again.
The new sin skills... I agree that they really are overpowered. Life hunters non existant cooldown with its high damage is a fantastic way to take down high defense opponents with spark. Elimination's def charm bypass with nuke damage is insane, considering it GIVES YOU chi and has a 15second cooldown, it even charm bypass anyone if the first 3 or 4 hits do enough damage. Cursed Jail isn't really that great, it procs puri more often than not, throwing away 2 sparks. I didn't really see elimination and life hunter being too much of an issue, seeing that the drop was extremely hard to get from Aba or SoT, but now the prereq. skills have been added to FSP and the bidding hall, so every other sin now is going to have these skills...
Also, you're talking about triple sparking as if it's going to make a sin invincible. Well, sure, it does, for three seconds. Again, I'm not sure if you're talking about a maxed gear sin or not. If a +10 dph sin triple sparks, and follows a DD like you're saying, it isn't going to take much for a couple ranged opponents of the same gear to either drop it, or make it retreat. I'm not sure about a maxed gear sin, I haven't seen one in TW.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
youtube.com/user/xtorah - Assassin PK/TW/NW videos0 -
SeaGinger - Archosaur wrote: »all the crying in this thread, its so sad.
the grass is always greener on the other side
everyone wants another class nerfed cuz they just too bad at the game to deal with it.
as a sin i dont personally use tidal that much, only in bridge battle in nw, in 1v1 i always use foccused mind, i can easily use my genie to get past CC, now when i get zerk critted and only receive 1 damage i feel insanely OP, so im guessing if tidal was removed everyone would QQ about that next, hell, lets delete sins entirely since people are too lazy to kite the incredibly squishy close range class.
maybe its my server or my faction, but outside forums i mostly hear how easily sins are brushed off (in nw nights some faction squads i join make a game out of who kills our director the most b:victory)
If you cant CC a sin, just hit it and kite, hes either gonna die or run away all kinds of butthurt
This is why archo isnt taken seriously, gg and stuffs. Using focused in PvP is just absolutely idiotic outside of +3 refines at which point you dont really matter to the enemy anyways.
Archo has 1 geared sin I can think of currently, that`s Toraah. Secret banned, diz inacitve(=not really refined/sharded on R9 set), rekabu no more than like full +10? Same with Stealhsai. Jesynx is kinda geared but dont think she`s really endgame either? Point being we dont have sins of the kind they are talking bout. Even Toraah isnt complete endgame, fairly close to it though.
Sins have aspects that can make them broken, largest problem though is gear gap this game has. When sin outgears enemy enough, they can take out a lot of ppl on their own as they just become more or less unstoppable. Similar to as if one would feed Akali in LoL, that one person would just wreck the enemy in very similar way. High damage, jumps, ability to stick on enemy and hard to lock down.
I agree sage tidal is broken and requires a nerf. Outside of that sins really are fine, granted I havent thrown the money required to get to play with the new skills from expansion. Its the massive gear gap which is the problem. Only class that is truly underpowered is archer - Wizzies(Archer prey of the past) at similar gear just faceroll them these days if there is no large skill gap in place.
@Longknife, not a TW leader outside the times I bother creating alt faction on reset but I wouldnt consider sin as much of a threat in TW as a BM. CC sins provide is restricted to 1 target while BMs can create all sorts of havoc that affects far larger group. Or I should say couple of BMs who know what they are doing and coordinate well together will be far more useful than same number of sins. So I would take few BMs that rotate creating "constant" distraction over few sins who have "limited" ways to create havoc. Then again that full +12 jades sage sin might be the winner on "solo category".
You are overestimating sins ability to generate chi though. If sin would triple spark as much as you suggest they couldnt really CC targets too well. And honestly, lot of the things you argue bout are sage specific. Then again there is no real debate between sage and demon for PvP focused sins. Sins are one of the top classes all around currently but not quite as powerful as you make them seem. Seems to me your experiences with sins are of the kind where you are facing complete endgame sins and you yourself arent quite there. Yes, few aspects of sins are broken but they arent the only class to whom that holds true.__Sami__ - Archer - 105/103/102 - mypers.pw/1.8/#132088 - Active
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Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »Like I said, part of the focus of this thread was to ask other squad/TW leaders if they feel sins have suddenly gone from being of minimal importance to one of the most key TW classes in the game. I certainly think they have, and when the class also doubles as the easiest 1v1 class with the most stacked odds, then wtf motivation do we have to make BMs, Seekers and Barbs? The latter three are still needed of course, but people choose their class selfishly, so OF COURSE everyone will personally choose the class amazing at all fronts.
tbh, I think sins have always been an issue in TW in this manner. It's just no one ****ing played them like that until recently with big r9rr DPH sage sin push and the Primal updates. On the server, the only sin that actually had the gear to pull that off and kinda played like that in TW way back when (well, not that far back; like Catalyst times) was IkazuchiKage, iirc, and then occasionally SoulFeast.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
I Subtraction.
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Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »
I challenge anyone reading this thread to name a single person, player, class, class build or what-have-you that would NOT actively kite full-force if a sin that uses Elimination is on them.
I wouldn't kite elimination personally, even from a full r9rr+12 sin with chill on. Facing a full deity sin may be more interesting, but i think their squishiness would keep them on the defensive enough to make up for the extra dd. At the same time, I do realize that the skill is extremely OP against any chars that aren't fully endgame, defense wise.0 -
Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »tbh, I think sins have always been an issue in TW in this manner. It's just no one ****ing played them like that until recently with big r9rr DPH sage sin push and the Primal updates. On the server, the only sin that actually had the gear to pull that off and kinda played like that in TW way back when (well, not that far back; like Catalyst times) was IkazuchiKage, iirc, and then occasionally SoulFeast.
Like I said I think what's changed is buffs are more vital than ever. You know me, back in the day I used to say "GTFO" when people said "wait for buffs before going out!!" Oooh I do 4k instead of 3k on a 7k target! It helps ok, but I can still kill. Now? Now I can legit hit a Seeker for 9k vs 2-3k when it's buffed. Buffs are a big deal, and when sins can't be purged, suddenly they're not dying so quick. Back then, yes, sins were a distraction, but typically they'd only manage a triple spark and an IG, then dead. Now they can go twice as long.I AGOREY0 -
I give up.
qq all you will because you wont listen to sense.
You have your head to far down the qq toilet.
If you're squad is stupid enough to run away from one sin you need to teach them to play.
One sin is NOT going to wipe your squad unless you are either undergeared or incompetent. Maybe both?
From the sounds of it you have been face rolled by a sin one to many times.
My mate with rrr9+10 2x garnet gems and +5 aps set hit a rrr9+12 nw orni sin for 33k with subsea tangle rift. If you in your full rrr9+whatever with your full squad cant drop one sin, in less thn a minute (like you stated above) you suck. Im sorry but that's the way it is.q.q is a term from the old star craft days.
pressing the button q brought up the player menu and pressing it again quit the game. Some mong didnt know what it meant and thought it was a pair of crying eyes leading to the "qq" term we have today. GG.
#TheMoreYouKnow0 -
Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »He's just pissy because my alt guild has massively embarassed his main guild multiple times in TW. Ignore him.
But yeah I will admit I'm not exactly expecting this thread to be heard out or change anything. This post was made more or less so I could hear other squad or TW leader's opinions, hear if they've ALSO noticed more focused neccesary for sins than BMs, and if they'd now consider sins a key class for bigger-scale fights. Basically just wanted to confirm I hadn't gone bat**** insane and that my eyes weren't playing tricks on me. And of course if sins can outperform BMs or barbs as harassers in TW, then obviously that's problematic for the BM population and I expect it to start shrinking. Could expect the same of the barb and seeker population. (Seeker feels like a TW-capable sin with more AOE ability, but easier to drop and needs special preparation to guarentee a kill. Sin doesn't need any special preparation, so the main difference Seeker vs Sin is one AOEs and the other doesn't, but sin outperforms on other aspects as well...)
Its no secret I have felt this has been the case for bms for quite some time, actually didn't really start seeing it/fighting for bms until nw came out. (If it never came out, I likely would have kept my opinions about the bm class to myself, tw is after all far different than NW, and not just the fact that nw has individual rewards, there is also the clear fact that its easier for people to stick together and assist each other while in tw, compared to nw.)
Tidal, deaden, stealth, etc of a sin can and will save a few sins regardless of their gears, invoke, cornered beast will save a barb no matter their gear, all other classes have the ability to attack at a distance. While a bm obviously has their marrows, their new leaps, blade hurl etc, none of that will prevent the bm from still being an easy prey/one shot to most, though aye obviously it does depend on the bm's gears. Also yes they have their stuns, but they MUST survive to even use them, and even if they can survive it takes a butt load of chi to lock down even just 1 opponent, while everyone else around them is more or less free to lay the smack down on that bm, there are far too many casters out there for our 'aoes' cc to get them all locked down so we're semi safeish and able to get in a kill/continue a stunlock while in mass pvp.
EDIT: I remember saying something to this effect not too long ago, but it seems to be ringing true with your very valid complaints LK:
Some advantages just do NOT go away despite the fact that everyone is in endgame gear. /edit
Still on my server, I have already been noticing that bm's have become far harder to "locate", hell I even see more and more squads looking for one for even pve instances. They are absolutely a support class, and many a bm feel like they can't do that job well at all without gearing up to +10 all gears/weapon, keeping a charm on at all times, and using apo. Even with using leaps, marrows etc while undergeared a bm is easy fodder for many. This is something that even TheDan agrees too. (That bm's while undergeared are rather underpowered)
Hell on that point about bm's I know not too long ago, one of the top factions on our server has someone saying that "they didn't know if it was the case for the other top factions on our server, but their faction was indeed struggling to get bms to show up." I must admit that I do not know if that is still the case, but I for one do believe it to be the case still.
I really believe that quite a few bms at least on my server have spent all their time/money/resources on gearing up another class for the new status quo of the game.
It really is no wonder why some people think that pwi is cleverly making one class extremely oped, trying to get everyone to migrate to one class to spend money on that class to gear it up to extreme levels as fast as possible. (Though I honestly feel this is a double edged sword, as people will eventually get upset about having to rinse and repeat this process for the new so called "OPED" class this year/expansion, and eventually say enough is enough and leave all together.)Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0 -
Toraah - Archosaur wrote: »Longknife, you're saying sins are amazing tanks in TW. Are you talking about +12 jaded sins with maxed passives, or are you talking about the average +10 dph sin? My server has no +12 jaded sins(well we have one but he's terrible and a complete non factor) so I've never really seen how strong one can be.
iirc, we're talking generally +10 to +11 armor with +12 wep. We have a couple DoT/Deity, one vit stone, and then a couple with some jades, but not full jades.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
I Subtraction.
/blatant sig copy is blatant
105/105/105 obtained! b:cute0
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