Sins more broken than ever before?

Socqar - Lost City

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Anyone else notice I'm constantly getting ad hominem attacks from stone faces with low post counts or sins?

Stone faces hate you, get over it. Non-stone faced toons do hate you for your long posts anyway... at least I do xD

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

to all the sins here saying that sage tidal+elimination are legit... i will open a suggestion thread asking for wizard new skill FrostlFlame to be a spammable 320% base damage skill with insta channelling+cast time and with cooldown reduced to 15 seconds

Fair enough, I'll support that if you add to the suggestion making let's say... Stunning arrow? +320% wep dmg + 100% stun (this really should be, 90% sucks balls), bypass Tidal and... let's say half chanel - cast time? Think this would be enough OP

XXHotXx - Morai

+1 Socqar leggo open Suggestion thread b:pleased

Ulquiorraa__ - Raging Tide

I can totaly see ignorance around ,While many don't notice that pwi made something new for sins btw aps and DPH which is Elimination and its not 0 channel 0 cast , its 2.5 sec ....

Aps was broken to deal with , Sins did not get r9rr with interval so they were not able to aps in it , then pwi noticed sins were struggling facing many classes , and being slow hitter with DPH due to cast times on sin skill , they choose to give a skill that is btw aps and DPH which balances the Class very well and gives some ability to do enough dmg to get a kill .
Now I'll agree the skill dmg is strong , but doesn't mean the skill it self is the problem .

To Tidal, now I want u to imagine and check how possible is to get identical skills for every class so then u would think ITS FAIR NOW . its not possible at all, every class have is characteristic and needs certain skills different from another class which is what makes the game so fun and VARIOUS .AND is so damn hard to manage it and make all classes balanced.

Now just tell me What would be the difference btw a sin without tidal and a bm with LA gear no marrow ? a very good CC class that once its stunned GG dead ?is that what u want it to be ?
Or whats the difference btw a sin with no tidal and barb with LA gear set and no hp buff and no invoke ?

U gotta understand its class needs and is a must . b:bye

XXHotXx - Morai

Ulquiorraa__ - Raging Tide wrote: »

I can totaly see ignorance around ,While many don't notice that pwi made something new for sins btw aps and DPH which is Elimination and its not 0 channel 0 cast , its 2.5 sec ....

Aps was broken to deal with , Sins did not get r9rr with interval so they were not able to aps in it , then pwi noticed sins were struggling facing many classes , and being slow hitter with DPH due to cast times on sin skill , they choose to give a skill that is btw aps and DPH which balances the Class very well and gives some ability to do enough dmg to get a kill .
Now I'll agree the skill dmg is strong , but doesn't mean the skill it self is the problem .

To Tidal, now I want u to imagine and check how possible is to get identical skills for every class so then u would think ITS FAIR NOW . its not possible at all, every class have is characteristic and needs certain skills different from another class which is what makes the game so fun and VARIOUS .AND is so damn hard to manage it and make all classes balanced.

Now just tell me What would be the difference btw a sin without tidal and a bm with LA gear no marrow ? a very good CC class that once its stunned GG dead ?is that what u want it to be ?
Or whats the difference btw a sin with no tidal and barb with LA gear set and no hp buff and no invoke ?

U gotta understand its class needs and is a must . b:bye

first of all, are you trying to fool yourself saying 2.5 casting time blabla? cause everyone that experienced elimination knows its mechanic... there is no time (0.1 secs) between when you press Elimination hotkey and when the damage is calculated (therefore dealt) on the target

thats actually the interval of time while the 4 elimination hits are landed onto the target not the interval of time between when you press the hotkey and when the damage is indeed dealt

also DPH sage sins never struggled against any class in 1on1, still dph sins were one of the best pvp classes at endgame pre-New Horizons

and o h m y g o d, there is no such feature in game that can be compared to Sage Tidal,

i hope you are trolling when you are comparing Sage Tidal to BM marrows,

cause NO other feature in game allows PASSIVELY to dont be debuffed or PURGED

Slewdem - Dreamweaver

Ulquiorraa__ - Raging Tide wrote: »

I can totaly see ignorance around ,While many don't notice that pwi made something new for sins btw aps and DPH which is Elimination and its not 0 channel 0 cast , its 2.5 sec ....

Aps was broken to deal with , Sins did not get r9rr with interval so they were not able to aps in it , then pwi noticed sins were struggling facing many classes , and being slow hitter with DPH due to cast times on sin skill , they choose to give a skill that is btw aps and DPH which balances the Class very well and gives some ability to do enough dmg to get a kill .
Now I'll agree the skill dmg is strong , but doesn't mean the skill it self is the problem .

To Tidal, now I want u to imagine and check how possible is to get identical skills for every class so then u would think ITS FAIR NOW . its not possible at all, every class have is characteristic and needs certain skills different from another class which is what makes the game so fun and VARIOUS .AND is so damn hard to manage it and make all classes balanced.

Now just tell me What would be the difference btw a sin without tidal and a bm with LA gear no marrow ? a very good CC class that once its stunned GG dead ?is that what u want it to be ?
Or whats the difference btw a sin with no tidal and barb with LA gear set and no hp buff and no invoke ?

U gotta understand its class needs and is a must . b:bye

I remember when hesoka made a thread about Bm vs cleric.. When he clearly stated he realize how much of a blessing tidal is.. atleast he admitted to it.b:laugh

Longknife - Harshlands

The difference is this:


Barb's new stun = "OP," but a barb managing to CATCH you to spam it is a challenge in itself and human form leaves them vulnerable. Likewise, every single class has some form of insta-cast skill to help them escape it, either when it fails to proc or between hits.

Soul of Silence = "OP," but a Psychic is arguably the squishiest class in the game, and as a result, is most susceptible to oneshots. Silencing your target doesn't count for much if you die in the process.

Sage BM's new Ferocious Leap = "OP" in the sense that it's a chi factory, but then again BM has perhaps -the- highest chi demand in the game, so all this does is enable a BM to utilize their chi skills more, it doesn't actually break them or make them invincible; not by a longshot.

Elimination = "OP," but a sin dies really qu-OH WAIT NVM they're suddenly one of the tankiest classes in the game as long as they're buffed. So uhh...****, guess we've got a problem huh?

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

b:laugh
I love it when ulq comes along with his arguments that sin is so hard to play.

Maybe you're just really bad.

Ulquiorraa__ - Raging Tide

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

first of all, are you trying to fool yourself saying 2.5 casting time blabla? cause everyone that experienced elimination knows its mechanic... there is no time (0.1 secs) between when you press Elimination hotkey and when the damage is calculated (therefore dealt) on the target

thats actually the interval of time while the 4 elimination hits are landed onto the target not the interval of time between when you press the hotkey and when the damage is indeed dealt

also DPH sage sins never struggled against any class in 1on1, still dph sins were one of the best pvp classes at endgame pre-New Horizons

and o h m y g o d, there is no such feature in game that can be compared to Sage Tidal,

i hope you are trolling when you are comparing Sage Tidal to BM marrows,

cause NO other feature in game allows PASSIVELY to dont be debuffed or PURGED

Actually I don't care if u understand what i've said or agree , Maybe some noobs in game need to learn how to avoid Elimination like our server OP ppl does "Points at boogiepanda archer r9rr JoSD+11" avoids many times Elimination using leap skills , same for Elveva , same for Many BMs using side jump skills . That proves again Elimination is not instant dmg once u press it , It can be interrupted once u move from its range and during its cast time .
And I'm sure u have miss read part of wht I said or u are trolling b:bye sin with no tidal is like a BM with no marrow in LA gear <--- ,or is like a seeker with no seeker def buff and LA set Figure out alone .

Euthymius - Heavens Tear

Ulquiorraa__ - Raging Tide wrote: »

sin with no tidal is like a BM with no marrow in LA gear <--- ,or is like a seeker with no seeker def buff and LA set Figure out alone .

>Still has two teleports and stealth to close distance/get a chance to land the first strike
>Still has a diverse set of Control Skills
>Still generates chi far faster than all the other classes
>Still has the ability to disengage a target at will
>Still dishes out ludicrous single target damage quickly

Right....they sure are comparable.

No one is even saying "remove tidal" so much as weaken it anyway.

Toraah - Archosaur

Ulquiorraa__ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Actually I don't care if u understand what i've said or agree , Maybe some noobs in game need to learn how to avoid Elimination like our server OP ppl does "Points at boogiepanda archer r9rr JoSD+11" avoids many times Elimination using leap skills , same for Elveva , same for Many BMs using side jump skills

Hold on. You use elimination on a player that has leaps at their disposal without them being stunned or silenced? Yeah, everyone that calls you a trash sin is indeed correct.

Socqar - Lost City

Toraah - Archosaur wrote: »

Hold on. You use elimination on a player that has leaps at their disposal without them being stunned or silenced? Yeah, everyone that calls you a trash sin is indeed correct.

Just curious now... isn't Elimination stunning the target in first strike as well? I mean, if it does then you have to use anti-stun on genie + leaps in 2,5 seconds... That's by no means "easy to leap" for an ultimate super killing skill...

It may also stun after the dmg, but I don't know if it's like this or otherwise hence feel free to correct me here.

I've leaped a lot of Eliminations lately... just to end up with a teleport-on-me + Life Hunter anyway b:surrender

Sins that know what are doing, now with skills being cheap and affordable and +12 weps are just So scare atm... Unless full buffed, spark-full, Awaken not in CD and genie filled I just don't bother to fight them, just spam scape skills or I'm a dead archer 9/10...

You know, pvp server stuff xD

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

Just curious now... isn't Elimination stunning the target in first strike as well? I mean, if it does then you have to use anti-stun on genie + leaps in 2,5 seconds... That's by no means "easy to leap" for an ultimate super killing skill...

It may also stun after the dmg, but I don't know if it's like this or otherwise hence feel free to correct me here.

I've leaped a lot of Eliminations lately... just to end up with a teleport-on-me + Life Hunter anyway b:surrender

Sins that know what are doing, now with skills being cheap and affordable and +12 weps are just So scare atm... Unless full buffed, spark-full, Awaken not in CD and genie filled I just don't bother to fight them, just spam scape skills or I'm a dead archer 9/10...

You know, pvp server stuff xD

Elimination DOES NOT STUN!!!! Cursed Jail stuns, not elimination.

XXHotXx - Morai

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Elimination DOES NOT STUN!!!! Cursed Jail stuns, not elimination.

it does, it "locks" the target like a paralyze but you can take actions such apo or genie and purify proc will put you out of the lock so faith will aswell

Dblazen - Dreamweaver

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

it does, it "locks" the target like a paralyze but you can take actions such apo or genie and purify proc will put you out of the lock so faith will aswell

>It does implies it stuns
>It locks implies you just cant move regularly
>it works like paralyze as if it works like the new barb one which actually stuns

Oh god get your stuff together before you speak man.

What it actually DOES do is IMMOBILIZE. You know, the thing that tackling slash does, aim low, hailstorm has a chance of doing.

It's not the same as being stunned or paralyzed.

SilverMayhem - Archosaur

Ulquiorraa__ - Raging Tide wrote: »

I can totaly see ignorance around ,While many don't notice that pwi made something new for sins btw aps and DPH which is Elimination and its not 0 channel 0 cast , its 2.5 sec ....

Aps was broken to deal with , Sins did not get r9rr with interval so they were not able to aps in it , then pwi noticed sins were struggling facing many classes , and being slow hitter with DPH due to cast times on sin skill , they choose to give a skill that is btw aps and DPH which balances the Class very well and gives some ability to do enough dmg to get a kill .
Now I'll agree the skill dmg is strong , but doesn't mean the skill it self is the problem .

To Tidal, now I want u to imagine and check how possible is to get identical skills for every class so then u would think ITS FAIR NOW . its not possible at all, every class have is characteristic and needs certain skills different from another class which is what makes the game so fun and VARIOUS .AND is so damn hard to manage it and make all classes balanced.

Now just tell me What would be the difference btw a sin without tidal and a bm with LA gear no marrow ? a very good CC class that once its stunned GG dead ?is that what u want it to be ?
Or whats the difference btw a sin with no tidal and barb with LA gear set and no hp buff and no invoke ?

U gotta understand its class needs and is a must . b:bye

I'm sorry but calling gear "broken" (Meaning weak i'm guessing sense you are defending yourself) so their for sins are weak does not help your argument. APS isn't a class, its a gear set up. Of course APS gear is weak. Its a combination of different Grade Levels of Gear composed and to function around 1 aspect of the game, Attacks Per Second. 2ndly, saying that "pwi noticed sins were struggling facing many classes..". Tell that to the Post NH rrr9 Sins .-. What did they do that you didn't do? What did they KNOW that you didnt? Clearly they have figured that APS was only used for Farming. 9/10 APS kills you, not your enemy, why? Bramble and other Reflects. Open World PvP? AD 2 shot (Damn Deaden). Why? Because your APS gear gave little to NO HP and Defenses.

Not to mention MOST sins +10 weapon and +4 armor and go around saying "Everything around me is OP!!".

And don't complain to me about Slow hitting e.e Your Skills channel fast.
Your new skill is like giving a Barb a Leap. Making Demon AMP an AoE. Seekers QPQ an AoE. You play the class, so you think you needed, but if you've ever been on the receiving end of a well geared, good skilled sin player (Can't be that hard to find with atleast 1 sin to every other player. Some even having 2 or more sins or atleast access to), you'd probably see why things have taken a turn for the... QQ?

Last, your last argument is just pure silly. Pure LA BM/Barb compared to Tidal? Secondly, if you'd play and learn barb, only time you use invoke is pulling cata or some last resort kind of effort to have your charm tic. But WAIT, dots go through invoke

Let Blur not bypass my Invoke. Then we are on the same level. (Not really but i'll give you little nudge in the right direction). Clearly, the only way to get around the recent changes of "Broken skills" is to break more. Seriously.

Sins are squishy, give them Deaden. Okay cool.
Sins are squishy, give them Evasion Skills. Okay Cool.
Sins are Squishy, give them Gap Closers + Speed skills. Mmm, yeah sure.
Sins are ???????, give them APS/DPH skills that Bypass charms. O_o Give me a reason why please. Like a legit reason why. You are squishy by nature of having LA armor. That does not mean you can't play your sin differently and put in Vit. Instead of +12 weapon maybe +6 weapon +6 Ring/Neck/Belt? Instead of Cit shards put in Garnets or Sapphires? No? Just let them kill upon hit? Okay e.e

Complain complain complain *PWI gives out Free Apoth for Sutra and IG* Is this your way of saying we need to Sutra/IG up and deal with it?

"Actually I don't care if u understand what i've said or agree , Maybe some noobs in game need to learn how to avoid Elimination like our server OP ppl does "Points at boogiepanda archer r9rr JoSD+11" avoids many times Elimination using leap skills..."

Huh, this brings me back to my Trolling point on the Barb forums.
Everything points to leaps. Leaps. Leaps.

How am i suppose to dodge this skill with low Evasion and no Leaps? Invoke as soon as a see it? Kinda hard when 9/10 you'll just Tele Stun in some sort of manner before i even notice you. Most sins wont go in alone unless Endgame Gear status is complete or everything imaginable is off of CD.

You really do need to stop arguing points tho, because you are just repeating, "If in LA gear..." Yeah, no ****. LA gear wasn't design to take on multi people or take a Nuke b:surrender

Its called Shard and Refine. Fine we've learned to live and deal with Tidal since the release of sins. Gotcha. But with these new skills, you can't even seem to understand or what to understand the havoc sins are creating. You mean i have to expend most of my resources to ether kill or run away from 1 target? Thats ridiculous.

There is no skill for any other class that has this many pros and so little cons. Sorry. YOU can go through the data base yourself and look through all the skills and pull some out, even the ones that you dislike, and compare it to your 3 new skills on this forum.

XXHotXx - Morai

Dblazen - Dreamweaver wrote: »

>It does implies it stuns
>It locks implies you just cant move regularly
>it works like paralyze as if it works like the new barb one which actually stuns

Oh god get your stuff together before you speak man.

What it actually DOES do is IMMOBILIZE. You know, the thing that tackling slash does, aim low, hailstorm has a chance of doing.

It's not the same as being stunned or paralyzed.

calm your ****..

skill description doesnt say Freezee, its says "locks" and thats why i quoted locks that indeed is a freeze

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

calm your ****..

skill description doesnt say Freezee, its says "locks" and thats why i quoted locks that indeed is a freeze

A stun is different from a freeze bro, go figure.

GG

SilverMayhem - Archosaur wrote: »

I'm sorry but calling gear "broken" (Meaning weak i'm guessing sense you are defending yourself) so their for sins are weak does not help your argument. APS isn't a class, its a gear set up. Of course APS gear is weak. Its a combination of different Grade Levels of Gear composed and to function around 1 aspect of the game, Attacks Per Second. 2ndly, saying that "pwi noticed sins were struggling facing many classes..". Tell that to the Post NH rrr9 Sins .-. What did they do that you didn't do? What did they KNOW that you didnt? Clearly they have figured that APS was only used for Farming. 9/10 APS kills you, not your enemy, why? Bramble and other Reflects. Open World PvP? AD 2 shot (Damn Deaden). Why? Because your APS gear gave little to NO HP and Defenses.

Not to mention MOST sins +10 weapon and +4 armor and go around saying "Everything around me is OP!!".

And don't complain to me about Slow hitting e.e Your Skills channel fast.
Your new skill is like giving a Barb a Leap. Making Demon AMP an AoE. Seekers QPQ an AoE. You play the class, so you think you needed, but if you've ever been on the receiving end of a well geared, good skilled sin player (Can't be that hard to find with atleast 1 sin to every other player. Some even having 2 or more sins or atleast access to), you'd probably see why things have taken a turn for the... QQ?

Last, your last argument is just pure silly. Pure LA BM/Barb compared to Tidal? Secondly, if you'd play and learn barb, only time you use invoke is pulling cata or some last resort kind of effort to have your charm tic. But WAIT, dots go through invoke

Let Blur not bypass my Invoke. Then we are on the same level. (Not really but i'll give you little nudge in the right direction). Clearly, the only way to get around the recent changes of "Broken skills" is to break more. Seriously.

Sins are squishy, give them Deaden. Okay cool.
Sins are squishy, give them Evasion Skills. Okay Cool.
Sins are Squishy, give them Gap Closers + Speed skills. Mmm, yeah sure.
Sins are ???????, give them APS/DPH skills that Bypass charms. O_o Give me a reason why please. Like a legit reason why. You are squishy by nature of having LA armor. That does not mean you can't play your sin differently and put in Vit. Instead of +12 weapon maybe +6 weapon +6 Ring/Neck/Belt? Instead of Cit shards put in Garnets or Sapphires? No? Just let them kill upon hit? Okay e.e

Complain complain complain *PWI gives out Free Apoth for Sutra and IG* Is this your way of saying we need to Sutra/IG up and deal with it?

"Actually I don't care if u understand what i've said or agree , Maybe some noobs in game need to learn how to avoid Elimination like our server OP ppl does "Points at boogiepanda archer r9rr JoSD+11" avoids many times Elimination using leap skills..."

Huh, this brings me back to my Trolling point on the Barb forums.
Everything points to leaps. Leaps. Leaps.

How am i suppose to dodge this skill with low Evasion and no Leaps? Invoke as soon as a see it? Kinda hard when 9/10 you'll just Tele Stun in some sort of manner before i even notice you. Most sins wont go in alone unless Endgame Gear status is complete or everything imaginable is off of CD.

You really do need to stop arguing points tho, because you are just repeating, "If in LA gear..." Yeah, no ****. LA gear wasn't design to take on multi people or take a Nuke b:surrender

Its called Shard and Refine. Fine we've learned to live and deal with Tidal since the release of sins. Gotcha. But with these new skills, you can't even seem to understand or what to understand the havoc sins are creating. You mean i have to expend most of my resources to ether kill or run away from 1 target? Thats ridiculous.

There is no skill for any other class that has this many pros and so little cons. Sorry. YOU can go through the data base yourself and look through all the skills and pull some out, even the ones that you dislike, and compare it to your 3 new skills on this forum.

If a sin is killing a barb with 1 skill, I take it the problem is not the sin...

As for sins have pro's and con's. This coming from one of the easiest to play classes in the game... I have played a barb for many years, and I can tell you it's harder to play a sin when you don't have maxed out gears, and barb with 'decent' gear can get just about any squad and tank about any boss, also doesn't get 1 shot by r9rr+12 on a regular basis. Or other than HARD CC, and HP/charm, please tell me the downsides of a barb? How many skills does a barb lose to upgrade their skills in the update? Z.E.R.O!The havoc that you assume is created by sins is not, it is created by the people that don't like them launching multiple QQ post in an attempt to explain the reason why they suck. BTW there is the thing called Mortal reversion, if you think sins bypassing a charm is a problem, you clearly have not been hit with this right before a charm ticks.

GG.

SilverMayhem - Archosaur

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If a sin is killing a barb with 1 skill, I take it the problem is not the sin...

As for sins have pro's and con's. This coming from one of the easiest to play classes in the game... I have played a barb for many years, and I can tell you it's harder to play a sin when you don't have maxed out gears, and barb with 'decent' gear can get just about any squad and tank about any boss, also doesn't get 1 shot by r9rr+12 on a regular basis. Or other than HARD CC, and HP/charm, please tell me the downsides of a barb? How many skills does a barb lose to upgrade their skills in the update? Z.E.R.O!The havoc that you assume is created by sins is not, it is created by the people that don't like them launching multiple QQ post in an attempt to explain the reason why they suck. BTW there is the thing called Mortal reversion, if you think sins bypassing a charm is a problem, you clearly have not been hit with this right before a charm ticks.

GG.

b:chuckle Cute cute.

First, never claimed that a barb was getting 1 shot by sins b:surrender Read before posting.

"As for sins have pro's and con's. This coming from one of the easiest to play classes in the game..." Are you calling barbs easy to play or sins? I'm confused on your attack. Last time i checked, spark aps takes 2 clicks >.>

"barb with 'decent' gear can get just about any squad and tank about any boss, also doesn't get 1 shot by r9rr+12 on a regular basis."

So we go from pve to pvp? I thought this forum post/thread was about pvp only O_o I mean it is called PvP Ponderings correct? What does your problem with finding a squad for BH have anything to do with the amounts of Utility you have coupled with the easiest out of the Zerk family to actually hit a Zerk Crit O_o. Because I'm able to tank a boss and you arn't means barbs are easy to play? Logic? Vit? Stat Some? Again, your argument, like the person i quoted, is based off an Armor Difference. AAs should cry about being squishy because they have very little Phy Def. HAs should cry about having very little mag def. If you dont like it, Refine and shard. This isn't about you having a poor Armor choice, this is about a skill that, when used correctly (and its pretty HARD not to use) is in its self, abusive. Did i say "TT60 sins using this skill 1 shots ERRBODY!!" no O-o.

"Or other than HARD CC, and HP/charm, please tell me the downsides of a barb?"

Other Than CC?
Charm ****?
No Gap Closers (If you really think speed is a gap closer you need to play other MMOs)
Being Weaken when coming out of our Kitty for to actually do DPH
Best barb skills that are scary costing a boat load of chi?
No Chi management skills

But no, we barbs have no downside. Thats like asking me "With out Tidal..." no ****!! With out Tidal... NEXT!

"How many skills does a barb lose to upgrade their skills in the update?" Point being?
Bestial Onslaught got a 5% Crit Inc for demon... point?
Mighty Swing got a NICE CC skill that can be EVADED by Tidal...
Stomp of the Beast King.. Tidal. .-. Not to mention the actuality of stacking Stomp...
Sunder... Its DPH didn't get inc, its bleed over time did. CRY!!! Cry for me!!

Because I lost nun of my skills? What a min. Lost, you didn't lose ANYTHING. Its called a skill merger. Meaning putting 2 skills together in 1 click. 1 click 2 skills. I dont see your point of logic here either. More to the point. Put Sunder and Arma together. Put Clean Sweep and Slam together (OP). Thats what you got. You didn't "lose" anything, if anything, you GAINED! And post New Hor. most sins where APS so i dont see how merging 2 skills together is a lose when most didn't use their skill bar b:surrender help me understand.

"The havoc that you assume is created by sins is not, it is created by the people that don't like them launching multiple QQ post in an attempt to explain the reason why they suck."

Firstly, you clearly arn't at endgame lvl or even near so thats okay. You dont have to see the havoc that I am assuming isn't there apparently I'm not even crying about your skills either. I'm just stating based on other classes skills, this one has no Downside and too many pros to considered anything less than... broken... Again, IDC about the dmg, but the no chi cost? the Quick CD? Its abusive. Then coupled with what sins where already? Yeah... But its okay, i'm QQing. Also, attacking me, really? Clearly that is your last resort/attempt in proving your case?

Nope, im a barb. I see casters and (except Psys) and take the proper defenses and run in, Freeze them and go to town. So nope. I like how you compare your skill to another classes skill. That class in question being not even a fraction to how heavily played a sin is. In 1 NW. I run into about 10 sins before i get a glimpse of 1 Wizy. And when i do finally see that Wizy its usually G16 or something weaker that allows them to be little more than a 1 shot. Thats the thing tho. Wizys, atleast on my server, are either Fodders or rrr9+12 Endgame. Sins? +12 Rrr9 daggs lets pop on ppl and roll. I'm sorry. So hard. And once a sin gets to Endgame gear and gets out of the +5 APS armor man. Hard to kill? Yes. Hard to PLAY? Hell no. I'm sorry most of your skills are CC. Must be hard PWI life you lead knowing that half of your skills do some form of CC

GG? How about:
Good Day To You SIR!

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

>Still has two teleports and stealth to close distance/get a chance to land the first strike
>Still has a diverse set of Control Skills
>Still generates chi far faster than all the other classes
>Still has the ability to disengage a target at will
>Still dishes out ludicrous single target damage quickly

Right....they sure are comparable.

No one is even saying "remove tidal" so much as weaken it anyway.

You forgot "you're still wrong" and "you're still bad"
b:cry

LiveWire - Raging Tide

Longknife I think that you're absolutely right and It's about time assassins get nerfed. Appropriate would make Demon Tidal 15% Sage 20% Life Hunter, Cursed Jail, Elimination damage 1/3rd of the currrent damage, and everything would be okay again imo.

SilverMayhem - Archosaur

LiveWire - Raging Tide wrote: »

Longknife I think that you're absolutely right and It's about time assassins get nerfed. Appropriate would make Demon Tidal 15% Sage 20% Life Hunter, Cursed Jail, Elimination damage 1/3rd of the currrent damage, and everything would be okay again imo.

b:chuckle

Now now, let's not get too ahead of ourselves. As annoying and broken this may seem. We have to understand that an assassin is our burst 1v1 class. I know, they are very annoying. Soo many control skills and so little cons. But I don't think nurfing tidals rate of actually being effective is the way to go. Letting purge bypass indefinitely would be a good start.

Maybe shaving off 50-100% from the damage of both life hunter and elimination, because those where the only 2 I was able to have damage test on me. But honestly, there won't be a nurf. Just know that in order to go back to, whatever balanced was, we will have to go keep going forward with breaking more stuff.. horrible way of doing things, but without a real defind way of figuring out what's too over powered and under powered. It's really your only hope. Maybe someone in PWICN will see what we are complaining about Nd do something.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

I am going to love ripping you a new one sir.b:laughLet's begin, shall we?

SilverMayhem - Archosaur wrote: »

b:chuckle Cute cute.

First, never claimed that a barb was getting 1 shot by sins b:surrender Read before posting.

Typically a charm bypass is performed by either:

A) Hitting someone twice in less than 1 millisecond e.i. heiroglitching (commmonly used for deaden nerves/pious blessing/cornered beast toons)

Keeping someone at slightly above 50% of their max HP, and then nuking them for the rest

C) Commonly used for cleric in UVD, is to stack heal debuffs and race their charm

Since the damage of cursed jail AND elimination occurs at different intervals, In order to charm jump someone they would have had to have died during the damage calculation, if that is the case, then your charm would not have saved you very much. Assuming that this one skill drained 50-100% of your HP, there are other hard hitting sin skills. But for you to say a barb being charm bypassed by a sin, while i was wrong, it is not a 1 shot, but the barb would have died regardless.

SilverMayhem - Archosaur wrote: »

"As for sins have pro's and con's. This coming from one of the easiest to play classes in the game..." Are you calling barbs easy to play or sins? I'm confused on your attack. Last time i checked, spark aps takes 2 clicks >.>

This is what we like to call an equivocation fallacy, take note.

APS=easy to use and broken=sins use APS=sins easy to play and broken. Right? Wrong.

Not all sins use APS, and you don't do yourself any favors by making that incorrect assumption of all sins. I call barbs easy to play because their mechanics do not require a lot of micro-management (like that of mystics). Sins require a bit of micromanagement, more so than barbs. I pay attention to my surroundings on my barb and my sin, but on my barb i am less affected by them, so i only have to focus on two things, staying alive and holding aggro. You tried to either be serious, or funny, but failed on either attempt.

SilverMayhem - Archosaur wrote: »

"barb with 'decent' gear can get just about any squad and tank about any boss, also doesn't get 1 shot by r9rr+12 on a regular basis."

So we go from pve to pvp? I thought this forum post/thread was about pvp only O_o I mean it is called PvP Ponderings correct? What does your problem with finding a squad for BH have anything to do with the amounts of Utility you have coupled with the easiest out of the Zerk family to actually hit a Zerk Crit O_o. Because I'm able to tank a boss and you arn't means barbs are easy to play? Logic? Vit? Stat Some? Again, your argument, like the person i quoted, is based off an Armor Difference. AAs should cry about being squishy because they have very little Phy Def. HAs should cry about having very little mag def. If you dont like it, Refine and shard. This isn't about you having a poor Armor choice, this is about a skill that, when used correctly (and its pretty HARD not to use) is in its self, abusive. Did i say "TT60 sins using this skill 1 shots ERRBODY!!" no O-o.

I mention the BH thing because it brings up a point. Barbs win the battle of attrition, that is also how they win in PvP, the don't have to kill you out right. A barb can do massive damage and still be the tankiest class in the game, while a sin can deal massive damage, but will never be on par with the tankiness of a barb. Speak about armor differences if you must but it remains a fact of the game, but before you talk about skill balancing, you seem to forget that is a part of the equation. As for tanking, my sin can tank 99% of the bosses in this game, so i have no problem finding BH squads, I even get invites to the (NO SINS!) squads on a regular basis.

SilverMayhem - Archosaur wrote: »

"Or other than HARD CC, and HP/charm, please tell me the downsides of a barb?"

Other Than CC?
Charm ****?
No Gap Closers (If you really think speed is a gap closer you need to play other MMOs)
Being Weaken when coming out of our Kitty for to actually do DPH
Best barb skills that are scary costing a boat load of chi?
No Chi management skills

But no, we barbs have no downside. Thats like asking me "With out Tidal..." no ****!! With out Tidal... NEXT![/QUOTE]

Ok you have a point here, I completely forget about the gap closer issue, but why does a class that runs 2x as fast as every other class need a gap closer?

You can't deal damage in tiger form? This is laughable, please learn to play a barb. A barb can still deal good damage in tiger form.

Scary skills costing a but load of chi? Hmmm... You mean like that new mighty swing right? Or that Bestial onslaught, or devour? 2 of those cost 0 chi, and give you chi, and devour has a miniscule chi cost for what it does.

Don't even get me started on Cornered beast, Beastial Rage, Demon BKI, and Sage Shapeshift (mighty).

SilverMayhem - Archosaur wrote: »

"How many skills does a barb lose to upgrade their skills in the update?" Point being?
Bestial Onslaught got a 5% Crit Inc for demon... point?
Mighty Swing got a NICE CC skill that can be EVADED by Tidal...
Stomp of the Beast King.. Tidal. .-. Not to mention the actuality of stacking Stomp...
Sunder... Its DPH didn't get inc, its bleed over time did. CRY!!! Cry for me!!

Yes, Mighty swing can be evaded by tidal, but what about when it isn't? o.0
And what about the other classes that don't have tidal, **** those too hun? Before you go around calling a particular class OP above all the rest, you really need to realize that all classes have something that is broken about them. As for Bestial, if you actually read the skill description, it makes your next stomp of beast king within 5 secs an instacrit.

SilverMayhem - Archosaur wrote: »

Because I lost nun of my skills? What a min. Lost, you didn't lose ANYTHING. Its called a skill merger. Meaning putting 2 skills together in 1 click. 1 click 2 skills. I dont see your point of logic here either. More to the point. Put Sunder and Arma together. Put Clean Sweep and Slam together (OP). Thats what you got. You didn't "lose" anything, if anything, you GAINED! And post New Hor. most sins where APS so i dont see how merging 2 skills together is a lose when most didn't use their skill bar b:surrender help me understand.

Once again a failed attempt to say all sins only use, or are APS. The fact i loss 10 attack levels, and 2-3 seconds of stun time on the head hunt skill merger aren't a loss right? Never mind the fact that because there are so many singular hits, its a toss up to whether the skills do less or more damage than the original two, is a gain right?

Let me spell it out for you. The new skill mergers have a chance to do LESS or MORE or the SAME damage as the skills we lost. It's all based on luck. By losing two skills we gained the ability to deal with defense charms better, thats the real gain. Whether it was worth it or not, I don't know, I don't have them all yet. I do know that for cursed jail my headhunt was instant before, but now people can AD out of it, it's no longer an instant nuke, but if the opponent stays still it has a chance to deal some nasty damage.

SilverMayhem - Archosaur wrote: »

"The havoc that you assume is created by sins is not, it is created by the people that don't like them launching multiple QQ post in an attempt to explain the reason why they suck."

Firstly, you clearly arn't at endgame lvl or even near so thats okay. You dont have to see the havoc that I am assuming isn't there apparently I'm not even crying about your skills either. I'm just stating based on other classes skills, this one has no Downside and too many pros to considered anything less than... broken... Again, IDC about the dmg, but the no chi cost? the Quick CD? Its abusive. Then coupled with what sins where already? Yeah... But its okay, i'm QQing. Also, attacking me, really? Clearly that is your last resort/attempt in proving your case?

My comment had nothing to do with you personally. Unless I said YOU, then i speak on general terms.I said multiple QQ post, this appears to be your first post on said topic. You take it personally as an attempt to discredit me, but you probably already knew i wasn't talking about you, but others on this thread.

As for me not being end game, are you endgame? So two non-endgame people talking about the endgame, makes us both look like fools, no? Are you trying to say that those that are not endgame have no right to an opinion? Boiling down to the simple fact is most of PWI is not endgame, so most of the people on this thread have no valid opinion, if you want to go by that standard, and most likely that includes you. Notice i said 'most likely', and not 'it does'.

SilverMayhem - Archosaur wrote: »

Nope, im a barb. I see casters and (except Psys) and take the proper defenses and run in, Freeze them and go to town. So nope. I like how you compare your skill to another classes skill. That class in question being not even a fraction to how heavily played a sin is. In 1 NW. I run into about 10 sins before i get a glimpse of 1 Wizy. And when i do finally see that Wizy its usually G16 or something weaker that allows them to be little more than a 1 shot. Thats the thing tho. Wizys, atleast on my server, are either Fodders or rrr9+12 Endgame. Sins? +12 Rrr9 daggs lets pop on ppl and roll. I'm sorry. So hard. And once a sin gets to Endgame gear and gets out of the +5 APS armor man. Hard to kill? Yes. Hard to PLAY? Hell no. I'm sorry most of your skills are CC. Must be hard PWI life you lead knowing that half of your skills do some form of CC

Have you ever played a sin at all? or a barb? Barbs have multiple CC and buff skills, none of them as much hard CC as sins, but not nearly at the same cost either. I want you to go to a PvP server and play a sin. One that doesn't camp stealth all day. A bad sin gets rolled by everyone, a good sin gets rolled by better players. APS sins, are another story. APS is the broken mechanic there, not the sin class. It's called causation, maybe you should look up what it means.

Cytte - Harshlands

A bad sin will kill a ton of people and still takes a ton of effort to kill, a good sin will kill way more people and takes more effort to kill and chances are he wont let you kill him because they'll know when to do what and what there limitations are.

Honestly aps became a problem when sins joined the fray, If a bm/barb/archer tried to aps you they could still be cc'ed/ you could break out of their cc cause they only had a few options, when sins did it you'd have to get lucky to cc them because of tidal along side having more ways to cc than the other aps users and highest damage out of the 4 since they're damage increases with dex, ohh and absurd chi gain would let them triple/double and still be able to cc with ease unlike all of the other classes.
While aps has always been a broken mechanic, Sins caused it to be Pvp problem instead of just a Pve one

SilverMayhem - Archosaur

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am going to love ripping you a new one sir.b:laughLet's begin, shall we?



Typically a charm bypass is performed by either:

A) Hitting someone twice in less than 1 millisecond e.i. heiroglitching (commmonly used for deaden nerves/pious blessing/cornered beast toons)

Keeping someone at slightly above 50% of their max HP, and then nuking them for the rest

C) Commonly used for cleric in UVD, is to stack heal debuffs and race their charm

Since the damage of cursed jail AND elimination occurs at different intervals, In order to charm jump someone they would have had to have died during the damage calculation, if that is the case, then your charm would not have saved you very much. Assuming that this one skill drained 50-100% of your HP, there are other hard hitting sin skills. But for you to say a barb being charm bypassed by a sin, while i was wrong, it is not a 1 shot, but the barb would have died regardless.

Again, never stated that a sin 1 shot a barb.


This is what we like to call an equivocation fallacy, take note.

APS=easy to use and broken=sins use APS=sins easy to play and broken. Right? Wrong.

Not all sins use APS, and you don't do yourself any favors by making that incorrect assumption of all sins. I call barbs easy to play because their mechanics do not require a lot of micro-management (like that of mystics). Sins require a bit of micromanagement, more so than barbs. I pay attention to my surroundings on my barb and my sin, but on my barb i am less affected by them, so i only have to focus on two things, staying alive and holding aggro. You tried to either be serious, or funny, but failed on either attempt.

In PvE all classes are pretty easy to play once you put alittle effort into learning their roll. The only thing that makes them hard is taking them out of their normal game pve roll (Sin goes from DD to Tank.) will it take more effort and thus can be seen as "harder to play." But again, i'm not going to talk about PvE because we all have our own PvE style.

I mention the BH thing because it brings up a point. Barbs win the battle of attrition, that is also how they win in PvP, the don't have to kill you out right. A barb can do massive damage and still be the tankiest class in the game, while a sin can deal massive damage, but will never be on par with the tankiness of a barb. Speak about armor differences if you must but it remains a fact of the game, but before you talk about skill balancing, you seem to forget that is a part of the equation. As for tanking, my sin can tank 99% of the bosses in this game, so i have no problem finding BH squads, I even get invites to the (NO SINS!) squads on a regular basis.

You stated that sin will never be on par with the tankiness of a barb yet say you can tank 99% of the bosses in the game. I.E. how much effort does it really take to play PvE. Not a whole lot.

But no, we barbs have no downside. Thats like asking me "With out Tidal..." no ****!! With out Tidal... NEXT!

Ok you have a point here, I completely forget about the gap closer issue, but why does a class that runs 2x as fast as every other class need a gap closer?

And against, you count running speed as a gap closer. We don't have an active speed buff its a passive that we lose out of tiger form. Gap closing isn't speed. Its actually Leaping/Teleporting. No matter how fast a class is (unless stuck at 15 speed i guess) if I chase a player down with a gap closer once i catch them, I actually have to get in front of them (melee range) to click and channel my skill to hit them and they use a tele. Great. Let the great chase begin again.

You can't deal damage in tiger form? This is laughable, please learn to play a barb. A barb can still deal good damage in tiger form.

This is called an attack on me. I know how to play barb. We have Alacrity, Surf Impact, Flesh Ream, Devour, Ancestral Rage and Sunder as attack skills in Kitty form. Rest of the Tiger skills being used to either Debuff or Save our ***** (invoke). In this day of age, unless i see someone thats gonna aps me, Demon roar is ineffective. Frighten is worthless for it has a chance to do a 20% stun that will probably never proc, and if it does its 3 secs thats 2 auto attacks or 1 skill attack. B. rage gains chi upon how many times they are hit. My attack with Flesh Ream and Devour out weight the gain of that skill b:surrender

You can not be serious as to say that a barb should DPH in kitty form e.e
Firstly, demons have the best advantage at that, and at that. Its not logical.

Scary skills costing a but load of chi? Hmmm... You mean like that new mighty swing right? Or that Bestial onslaught, or devour? 2 of those cost 0 chi, and give you chi, and devour has a miniscule chi cost for what it does.

I'm sorry, didn't know Mighty Swing was scary e.e Scary being amounts of Dmg it does. Not what it procs when and if it hits. It still stands that Barbs have the worse Chi Management and can miss with there biggest and most bad *** skills costing them more than 1 spark and even a charm tic. You play Devour as if im going to jump in and out of kitty form while fighting to get that 50% phy def debuff on you. Nah probably not. I'll just use Pen. Armor.

Don't even get me started on Cornered beast, Beastial Rage, Demon BKI, and Sage Shapeshift (mighty).

Cornered Beast is not an Attack, this claim holds not water and at the very most can be one shot through. Just ask any barb that goes up against an Endgame gear psy.
You want me to use Demon BKI to gain chi while im in a Mass PK. If you see a barb chiiing up. Atk them and teach them to get their chi from somewhere else.
Switching in and out of Kitty form, again, not a really good idea in the heat of a battle.

Yes, Mighty swing can be evaded by tidal, but what about when it isn't? o.0
And what about the other classes that don't have tidal, **** those too hun? Before you go around calling a particular class OP above all the rest, you really need to realize that all classes have something that is broken about them. As for Bestial, if you actually read the skill description, it makes your next stomp of beast king within 5 secs an instacrit.

So know we are thinking about the rest of the classes. This was a forum post about Sins. And sins where defending themselves. Now sins are defending other classes. This is losing all interests really. I never said Sins where OP. I didnt' say the class needed to be nurfed. This was a claim about their new skills coupled with what they already had. And lastly, what does Stomp of the Beast King critting (for sage only) have to do with anything?

Once again a failed attempt to say all sins only use, or are APS. The fact i loss 10 attack levels, and 2-3 seconds of stun time on the head hunt skill merger aren't a loss right? Never mind the fact that because there are so many singular hits, its a toss up to whether the skills do less or more damage than the original two, is a gain right?

Let me spell it out for you. The new skill mergers have a chance to do LESS or MORE or the SAME damage as the skills we lost. It's all based on luck. By losing two skills we gained the ability to deal with defense charms better, thats the real gain. Whether it was worth it or not, I don't know, I don't have them all yet. I do know that for cursed jail my headhunt was instant before, but now people can AD out of it, it's no longer an instant nuke, but if the opponent stays still it has a chance to deal some nasty damage.

Then that is something of a user choice. You do not see the gain but others do. Thats not a skill fault. You are then, defending a skill you do not have

My comment had nothing to do with you personally. Unless I said YOU, then i speak on general terms.I said multiple QQ post, this appears to be your first post on said topic. You take it personally as an attempt to discredit me, but you probably already knew i wasn't talking about you, but others on this thread.

As for me not being end game, are you endgame? So two non-endgame people talking about the endgame, makes us both look like fools, no? Are you trying to say that those that are not endgame have no right to an opinion? Boiling down to the simple fact is most of PWI is not endgame, so most of the people on this thread have no valid opinion, if you want to go by that standard, and most likely that includes you. Notice i said 'most likely', and not 'it does'.

I'm r9+10 O-o does that count for something. What I say, speaks from my server and my server only. I do not know how people play on your server. PvP servers are different from PvE. So because i'm on a PvE server i auto dont know how to play barb or something? I did not say "because you aren't endgame you can't talk" i was merely stating that because you do not have endgame gear status that maybe you have not noticed how powerful Sins have become. You are also stating that most of PWI is not endgame. Do you know that for a fact? Can you take a poll of how many players play PWI and are not R9? Archo is about 50% R9. 50% R9 is alot.

Have you ever played a sin at all? or a barb? Barbs have multiple CC and buff skills, none of them as much hard CC as sins, but not nearly at the same cost either. I want you to go to a PvP server and play a sin. One that doesn't camp stealth all day. A bad sin gets rolled by everyone, a good sin gets rolled by better players. APS sins, are another story. APS is the broken mechanic there, not the sin class. It's called causation, maybe you should look up what it means.[/QUOTE]

My CC skill are as follow:
Mighty Swing (Thee most Simi Abusive one we have)
Ancestral Rage: immobilizing your target for 8 seconds - Cost 1 spark in kitty form
Alacrity of the Beast: 50% chance to freeze the target for 3 seconds
Surf Impact: Demon version has a 25% chance to freeze targets for 4 seconds.
Frighten: Demon version has a 20% chance to stun enemies for 3 seconds.
Untamed Wrath: stunning all enemies within 15 meters for 2 seconds

There are my CC skills. Which ones can I use in Human form. 2. Which ones will do a constant CC 3. What is the longest lasting CC Ancestral Rage. How many Stuns 3. How many Freezes 4. Which one is unblockable 1. Because I only have 2 in human form, you expect me to go in and out to keep my target somewhat CCed. Knowing 3 of my CCs are a chance and all but 1 can be resisted by all classes and 3 classes can Reset all 6 e.e

So im supposed to Roll a sin and actually see how hard it is to play a sin? I dont need to. Simple and short.

b:surrender Sorry but i wont be replying to this thread anymore. I've said what I wanted and it looks like I'll start getting attacked personally because I don't play a sin. Okay. Good Day.

tsyfall

Hi, sins are balanced with maxed out equal gear, and are horribly OP when compared to people of lesser gear.

Any questions?

Longknife - Harshlands

LiveWire - Raging Tide wrote: »

Longknife I think that you're absolutely right and It's about time assassins get nerfed. Appropriate would make Demon Tidal 15% Sage 20% Life Hunter, Cursed Jail, Elimination damage 1/3rd of the currrent damage, and everything would be okay again imo.

As I've said I've got nothing against Sins being a faceroll class for 1v1. I'm perfectly fine with them being a class that has every advantage for 1v1 scenarios.

I just don't like how now they feel like the undisputed 1v1 kings alongside having amazing mass PVP/TW ability. A very simple fix would be to either put a cooldown on triple spark or to let purge bypass Tidal. (the latter being preferred) The latter would not incapacitate sins in PVP, it would merely require a stealth retreat upon each successful purge. A good sin could still remain out of stealth a good length of time with this (trip spark can resist a purge, think faith can too...?), but it will cease to be 1 minute+ durations where a sin is absolutely DEMANDING the full attention of all enemy forces. Instead it would become ~30 second assault durations tops before they'd need to retreat to stealth and wait on some cooldowns or remain at a safe distance before jumping in balls deep again. The average Psychic can remain physical immune for a good 40-60 seconds depending on the scenario and is still very much vulnerable(a singular stun properly timed can break this chain), the average BM would probably need some form of retreat/mini-retreat within 30 seconds time. The current duration of a time a sin can go wild is absolute ludicrous by comparison whereas a ~30 second window to wreck **** up before some form of retreat would be more on-par with other classes. FFS as it stands now, I'd -ALMOST- be tempted to say a full vit sin could manage pulling cata... (almost)



I mean is there anyone here who'd disagree that making purge bypass Tidal while not touching anything else would be the perfect fix?

upsides

tsyfall wrote: »

Hi, sins are balanced with maxed out equal gear, and are horribly OP when compared to people of lesser gear.

Any questions?

Pages 14-16 of this thread. Start from post #133.

Toraah - Archosaur

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

Just curious now... isn't Elimination stunning the target in first strike as well? I mean, if it does then you have to use anti-stun on genie + leaps in 2,5 seconds... That's by no means "easy to leap" for an ultimate super killing skill...

It may also stun after the dmg, but I don't know if it's like this or otherwise hence feel free to correct me here.

I've leaped a lot of Eliminations lately... just to end up with a teleport-on-me + Life Hunter anyway b:surrender

Sins that know what are doing, now with skills being cheap and affordable and +12 weps are just So scare atm... Unless full buffed, spark-full, Awaken not in CD and genie filled I just don't bother to fight them, just spam scape skills or I'm a dead archer 9/10...

You know, pvp server stuff xD

Elimination has/had a text error, not sure if it's fixed saying that it stunned. It actually immobilizes the target for 3 seconds, so a target that doesn't have leaps available will take the damage full in the face(and arcanes if puri procs)

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

SilverMayhem - Archosaur wrote: »

I've said what I wanted and it looks like I'll start getting attacked personally because I don't play a sin. Okay. Good Day.

If you don't play a sin then how can you ever speak on the balance of the sin class, especially for something you have to actually play a sin to know about?

I find that most of the people that talk the most **** about sins, either have an aps farming toon that they cashed/put into full +10 gears, or never actually play, speak the most about how easy it is, for a class they barely understand...?

Not saying that is you, but you get my point hopefully.

Longknife - Harshlands

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you don't play a sin then how can you ever speak on the balance of the sin class, especially for something you have to actually play a sin to know about?

With that same logic, how can you say sins aren't OP unless you've thoroughly played every single class and seen no definite advantage yourself?