Archers forgotten?

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Class sub-forums in a nutshell:

Blademaster: "Hey our new skills kinda kick ***..."
Wizard: "Figuring out a character build on a pure DD class sure is complicated as ****! Vit, right?"[COLOR="SeaGreen]answer: gear up, r9rr+12 pure mag or gtfo[/COLOR]
Barbarian: "HELP I KEEP DYING!!!"answer: gear up
Venomancer: "HA vs. AA, vit vs. magic and focus on myself or on my pet?"answer: Who cares? Just purge-amp all the way!
Archer: "QQ WE R SO UNDERPOWERED DATS WHY WE'RE LIKE DA MOST COMMON CLASS"answer: tons of trolls saying ea's are OP as ** (side note, most common class nowadays is sin, by FAR at least in LC server)
Cleric: "Let's figure out a way to NOT do our jobs and try to metal mage instead"answer: trolls telling eps to heal - sog
Psychic: "HEAR ME OUT GUIS, I SWEAR DEMON IS VIABLE THIS TIME" `answer: no-one does this nowadays... Sage all the... DEMON! DEMON ROCKS! I SWEAR I'M DEMON AND IT ROCKS!
Assassin: "About time they gave us an overpowered skill, now we're finally balanced!"answer: gtfo sin's, you're OP as **, WTT XXXX for Tidal
Seeker: "God I'm sick of people calling us OP..."answer: You're OP as **... you lack skills if you don't one-shot... bla... bla... <- Badge of courage <- null Seeker O.o
Mystic: *cricket**crikity cricket* <- We're lucky there's cricket's in there, OP class with UP players, god bless the weirdness of their skills!

/5chars

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I will also state many times that I have played endgame characters without having owning any. People discredit me because I make claims based on the evidence presented to me. Objective claims usually. I don't really have a favortism to any class when it comes to balance, even though I like the barb class a lot. But we are not allowed to mention private servers kossy. I do infact know how the endgame plays Kossy, I've been there, and I watch fights between the endgames on both servers. SKill means a lot in this game, and all my claims asume equal skill as a constant.

The things i asked for are reasonable, but without those counter balances, her nerfs however, are not. See my piont? Why removed those things from sins without removing the things i stated, which she made no mention of.

As for psys.

There are a lot of endgame demons on Dreamweaver. If the people calling me stupid would log onto the server they would know this. Do I really have to start naming people? Maybe I should. Just because most psys go sage doesnt mean that there is no reason to go demon. That has the same fallacy as, most sins go demon, so only fail sins go sage, when we both know a lot of the best sins are in fact sage.



Pretty accurate.b:laugh

Umm... stealth pots aren't in distribution anymore they will run out. Umm stealths duration being time limited and cd being increased is completely reasonable because its annoying how sins tend to stealth once tidal is gone or their buffs are gone. Anyone who doesnt think a time limited stealth isnt reasonable is just biased and like camping in stealth 24/7. Why would u get a second get out of battle stealth just because one of them cost a spark. The get out of battle stealth is a life saving skill, you mentioned veno skills to which I replied... They take up a lot of freaking xhi( except blazing barrier) they aren't Perma like stealth. Every time I ask would a sin trade tidal for an good extra def skill u know what their answer is? He'll to the no. So it's obviously way better than the def skills sins complain they don't have seeing that none of them would give up tidal for it. Stop twisting words... I didn't say remove them I said lower the duration of it and increase the cd a bit. My best buff does not last anywhere near as long as tidal and on top of it, it cost 2 sparks. Please tell me dion how long does your best buff last(tidal) now picture venos best buff costing no chi and having the same duration and cd as tidal.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I never twisted your words, correction, I said you did not mention the counter balances to your own balance. Like there being time limited stealth, but you made no mention of removing stealth pots, or the Earthgaurd stealth skills. As for tidal. Yes, being immune to debuffs is a big adavantage, however a sin has to choose. Do I want to tidal or focused mind? If I do one, I lose something else. Do veno's have to make that same choice? No, you do not. You also don't have a down time for your only defensive skills. Lets make the cd of fox form the same as tidal, and then you will see what i mean. You talk about balance but you forget the reason why sins have the skill in the first place. We don't have anything besides stealth, Deaden, and Tidal to fall back on (excluding genies and apo). Same as archers got stealth, leaps, range, and higher base damage. Your best defensive buff is fox form and bramble hood. But last time i checked, tidal doesnt return 200-300% physical damage, get over yourself.

... Really? You make it sound like you're actually losing something here. Psys are a decent example of giving up something for their self-buffs as they either nuke their attack levels or kill their defense levels. They have to either decide to either increase their survivability or lower their opponents'. Tidal/Focused mind? You don't lose a damn thing picking one over the other as long as you aren't using them in a completely stupid manner... oh and on top of that, Demon sins get to have both active at the same time which nullifies your entire complaint.

Hell, even venos are a better example than sins are for this. A veno in fox form cannot deal any major damage to anyone they aren't massively outgearing. All they can really do is debuff... and going into fox form is a GIANT SIGNAL SAYING THEY WANT TO DEBUFF. So even venos, who you're acting like they're so much better in terms of defensive skills, have more of a trade-off than assassins do. Oh and that's before accounting for hood costing 2 sparks and blazing barrier costing 30 chi... while neither can be kept up over 50% of the time. Tidal, Focused mind, and nerves? Those all grant chi. As does shadow escape. And any good sin can basically become immune to CC via smart use of genie/apoth to fill the time while tidal is on cooldown...

Meanwhile a sin needs to be killed twice due to deaden, will have a minimum of a 50/50 chance to block all debuffs including purge, will always have higher crit damage when it matters, can zerk, has a huge array of CC, will have infinite chi if not played by an idiot, has an emergency survival skill that GRANTS CHI unlike... say... every other class in the game, can easily swap between DPS and DPH (though anyone trying to APS anyone who's competent in this day and age needs to get their head checked), and has massive spike damage potential.

No offense but you can't even compare and the points you're bringing up are serving to prove you don't really know what you're talking about here. And no, watching the p-server rejects flail at each other because they couldn't make it on the official servers isn't the same thing as being knowledgeable and experienced here. Not even close. Frankly, what you tried to put up as demands are so mind numbingly stupid and overpowering that there's no way in hell anyone halfway good would even consider them. Meanwhile, those requested "nerfs" are things that are actually sensible.

As a sin, your posts here remind me far too much of all the noob sins back in the day who complained when you couldn't 3spark in stealth anymore because all they could do was 3spark occult ice APS. You're displaying far too much ignorance of both your own class AND the other classes you're attempting to debate here and you really should take a look at yourself and improve first. Otherwise, you're going to keep saying and doing things that will eventually put you on Yulk's level of credibility.... or possibly below his as we've had people on the forums actually agree with him on occasion.

(Lol'd at Ast's post. Nice find!)

I'd also like to point out that balancing a nerf doesn't mean that something has to be taken away from someone else. When you're trying to balance a scales you don't constantly take from both sides. When looking at a skill nerf or buff, a lot of factors should be take into account. But saying it has to be **** for tat to the point that no effective change in balance actually occurs and the point of the nerf is lost in the first place? That's not being objective. Objectivity is looking at it from both points of view, not just your own. It's looking at what the effects would be, in an honest manner. And it's acknowledging what strengths the class will still have and counters it would still have, should the change take place.

E.G. bringing up skills that can be dealt with regardless of what happens to stealth or tidal :P.

Impressive. Your entire post directed at me is about a tangent over a perceived insult while being completely unable to refute the points I made in regards to your post because they are fact. Meanwhile, you have to fall back to trying to argue based on opinion and you aren't being very honest with yourself if you think some level 142 on a private server (where modifications are a REAL THING THAT HAPPENS) will fight the same way as the players here. Like all the idiots who run around on P.Servers trying to APS stuff because that's actually effective there unlike here where anyone with half a brain can shut down APS without even trying.

However, I'm not going to continue your little tangent any further than that. Thank you for proving my point in such a blatant manner.

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

This is what i mean. That up above, can you really call that being objective? Other classes have good skills =/= that there is nothing wrong with tidal or stealth. Can you honestly say that fox form is an unfair buff? Bramble doesn't work in open world PK where it can be reasonably argued that it would be unfair. And indeed reflect has been nerfed twice, i'm fairly certain. I know that it used to work in open world pvp, albeit that was before my time. In addition, I'm fairly certain after nation wars came out that they reduced the damage it reflects in some way. That's actually a skill that has been adjusted for balance. Can you honestly say that if stealth cost a spark for example, that you'd be unable to deal with it? What if tidal had a bit longer CD, would that make you suddenly be unable to deal with veno reflect? Which is what you compared, tidal vs reflect. The answer to both those questions is no, ofc. So why point that out in specific as the comparison? You dismissed the person you were quoting, because of the comparison between tidal and reflect. That's not being objective, that's just subjective justification because you don't want it to happen. If tidal had some kind of drawback to it, it would not impact your ability to deal with veno reflect. Bringing up reflect, because your intention was to discredit another poster, is not being objective. Bringing it up as an argument that tidal isn't OP, isn't being objective. As it has nothing to do with tidal. Neither would any modification to reflect be necessary if tidal was nerfed, as a counter balance. That is not an honest nor objective argument on the merits of a nerf to tidal.

And if you genuinely do believe that reflect is objective to bring up when talking about tidal, you damage your own credibility.

As per the topic, I can honestly say after reading up on all the stuff you guys have been posting related to the new expansion, I'm not as impressed with the archer skills as some of the other class's new things. Whether or not that's justified, I'll leave it up to you better minds than my own to continue hashing it out. I don't really think it is though, they could have done something really cool for archers without destroying the entire balance of PWI.

I wasn't trying to say reflect is more or equally as good as tidal. I'm stating they are what they are. Tidal has a work around, reflect has a work around. Seems like I can deal with tidal just fine on any toon, but other people can not. Why? Because they would rather come here and complain rather than finding simple solutions. Blamble hood has a 2 spark cost for a reason. It reduces damage, and reflects damage. That's why it cost chi. Most people would just like to see them removed due to a hate of the class without understanding why the skill exist in the first place, or maybe they do, and still complain because they don't like it. That's not objective either. Objective meaning based on the facts, not opinions. Fact is tidal is a good skill, fact is bramble hood is a good skill, fact is trying to compare the two is moot. It's like talking about zerk, but forgetting that stat wise every class has almost 2x the attack of a sin, but people seem to miss things like that. But by your same standards that does not mean there is nothing wrong with other class skills either. There's this thing called perfect balance by imbalance. It's a concept so many struggle to understand.

I compare it to the sin vs psy, where the psy pops psys will. If the sin had half a brain they would condensed thorn and sleep/seal/stun the psy. Most sins still complain about psys will, while i don't care because I know how to counter it.

OPKossy wrote: »

Impressive. Your entire post directed at me is about a tangent over a perceived insult while being completely unable to refute the points I made in regards to your post because they are fact. Meanwhile, you have to fall back to trying to argue based on opinion and you aren't being very honest with yourself if you think some level 142 on a private server (where modifications are a REAL THING THAT HAPPENS) will fight the same way as the players here. Like all the idiots who run around on P.Servers trying to APS stuff because that's actually effective there unlike here where anyone with half a brain can shut down APS without even trying.

However, I'm not going to continue your little tangent any further than that. Thank you for proving my point in such a blatant manner.

The private server I play on is exactly like normal PWI. Only difference is the availability of gear and exp. It is basically PK-ready. Shows how quickly you jump to conclusions. If you did not know you should have asked, rather than assume.

You seem angry. Does my ignoring of your false accusations bother you?b:laughCome harder pls, I didn't response because your post was full of what you thought rather than the truth. I admit i go off on tangents, but you are becoming downright disrespectful.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The private server I play on is exactly like normal PWI. Only difference is the availability of gear and exp. It is basically PK-ready. Shows how quickly you jump to conclusions. If you did not know you should have asked, rather than assume.

You seem angry. Does my ignoring of your false accusations bother you?b:laughCome harder pls, I didn't response because your post was full of what you thought rather than the truth. I admit i go off on tangents, but you are becoming downright disrespectful.

Uh-huh, sure. Exactly like normal PWI. Also pigs have wings and routinely fly past various major airlines.

And once again, you're unable to actually provide anything factual and resort to saying "lol u mad" like a complete moron because you know full well you've been put in a corner with no way out. So instead all you can do now is pull **** outta your posterior. Good job on that.


As for the APS bit before you edited it out... it's because there are still people that suck, not because it's viable. I can survive G16s APSing my 8X non-reawakened arcanes and then kill said G16s. Then when I point out to them that they're being stupid and could easily kill me if they'd use their brains and use skills they.... stupidly run right back to me and try to APS some more. And die. And call me all sorts of manner of noob and fail and so on because their stupid tactic doesn't do a damn thing to anyone who has a brain and has any amount of resources off cooldown.


But you've done a fine job of proving why you do fall under the fail/stupid category you put yourself into, so I won't bother responding to your posts any further. Remember, I never once claimed you suck or were stupid. I simply pointed out some things good sins do and bad ones do. You were the one that decided nothing on the list of things good sins were capable of applied to you while the things bad ones do did.... and then you decided to jump up in arms about it. Not me. So before you accuse anyone else in here of anything or feel some need to defend yourself, just remember you're the one who called yourself stupid to begin with.

In short,

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lol u mad?

Archers say the defensive passive is the biggest disadvantage on archer purge but fact i tested with wizz and hell no....

i tested on low geared barb who got 7410 mdef (64.63%) unbuffed, i used with my full dex spark skill what lower to only few hundred the defence before patch but now barb got 2379 fire def(35.98%) after same genie spark with lv 4 passive

sorry but for me obviously biggest nerf on genie spark skill also archers get pretty balanced defence from buff, sadly can't test someone who got lv7 passive but even that kinda **** since with ~full dex genie the genie gone to nice cooldown till replenish his energy....

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

QQ OP mage combo got inadvertently nerfed? Say it isn't so!

God forbid wizards not be able to consistently hit me for 15k-20k at absurdly minimal cost!

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

QQ OP mage combo got inadvertently nerfed? Say it isn't so!

say the caster who can spam with physical attack
if somebody maybe noticed then cleric buff stoped that "op" dmg then dex genie became useless for 1min until other people can use it (not like not easily avoidable the spark effect), other side maybe some ppl forgot the absolute domain and iron guard + immune stun skill op too from this view point....

go use then udine now vs buffed caster and maxed primal because same time when sparked nerfed, the udine strike also nerfed with that...

OPKossy wrote: »

I'll have ways around that anyways and the skill damage passive helps to counter the defense gain somewhat.

this interesting in archer topic, since alot archer just use autoattack in pvp for hopeing in purge but dmg passive work only on skill and not autoattack, hm,...like elimination?

(other thing if someone got low defence then worth more the passive=>aka unbuffed enjoy it but for full buffed less noticeable - btw i not really feel any nerf on tideborns, psy dont feel that much the difference with black voodoo, sin got elimination what nice without zerk too)

Give us R9rr crossbow and full -chan option on R9rr, problem solved

instantcast sage dph EA OP

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

She's obviously referring to the wizard she plays...

Archer just use auto attacks aside from a few skills because channeling for anything else is not worth **** if the target cannot be purged ASAP. The 3 metal skills take almost 8s total to pop out with only 2 skills having chance to purge. Meanwhile you can hit ~6 times with autos and every hit has chance to purge.

It's more worth it to auto heavies until purge because I hit like 2k on fully buffed heavies with metal, so it's not like you're going to kill somebody who is fully buffed.

After purge I can crit ~10k on Jades with BV, otherwise you just waste BV and look ****.

On robes there is not much else you can do except hit with physical so like...whatever.

It's the same as some BMs taking out purge spears esp against other heavies, they'll deal **** damage and have no chance to kill, but they deal **** damage with R999 axes on fully buffed heavies anyway. At least purge attempts is getting somewhere.

THIS is in stark contrast to some BS wizard reducing people's def to like a few hundred before this update and just go 20k hit because **** balance. That is like a 5 fold damage increase right there.

Even with my purge example...going from 4k crits to 10k crits with BV is about a 2 fold raw damage increase. That was pre-update btw, who knows what it is now with the passives.

wizz also do same 2k -ish on bm with buff and marrow on, there was the spark helpfull and vs mystic/cleric/psy/veno, when they buffed (like allways since spirit of defence potion arrived)


sry but even with spark i never hited 20k on bm with marrow (with +139 att lv and 37k mattack) and buffed archer mostly not so dumb to stay with genie spark on him (atleast proved that last sunday nw, where from 5 try 1 was succesfully, coz so easy to avoid it), fact only on light armor look like opish dmg still well gear people can't be 1hit and if not noob can avoid, basically also from light armor users sin got no problem if use tidal and deaden so ....

with wizz try hit any magic class, or bm, seeker with end game gear without spark and u can compare the damage with archer after purged the target
wizzard was created for beign dph class so it ok if hit hard (keep in mind short time and 40sec cooldown, with 20m range so archer can jump or or run etc, sacrificeing the genie for bit with dex build) with 1 skill until u can purge and hit atleast 3 normal attack till he cast

with friend can share 3rd +12 sin/archer/seeker/mystic, i don't say archer underpower/overpowered, same with wizz, just notice if archer feel it was nerf because of passive then it was for every defence reduction thing too

[edit]
tested last night on +12 seeker in nation war, without spark, only with udine doing 3k's vsover 30k hp if he buffed got absolute no chance with wizz, there the point why they made 6 sec chance every 40sec when from 3 heavy armor 2 unkillable without spark even magic class was made for that